Once again - questions about Hell

[Guest no surprises]

Selfish

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vigile,

what you see as selfish...for me, just isn't an issue. When I accepted Christ at age 12...I did so because I wanted a close personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Hell wasn't brought up then, and it's never been a reason (for me)to keep the faith. I don't want to see anyone separated from Christ for eternity...but if that is what someone wholeheartedly wants...I can't do much about it, other than pray. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it's my job to prove anyone wrong...Or talk anyone into or out of anything. For example, if we worked in the same factory, and you had an extremely heathen lifestyle that you bragged about in the lunch room. I would never be judgemental toward you, or tell you your a grievous sinner. Because that's a spade calling you a spade...it wouldn't happen with me. I would pray for you for sure, I wouldn't treat you any different than an overtly Christian co-worker. You woulld probably notice me reading my Bible sometimes at lunch, and would probably notice that I don't use vulgar language, or brag about getting drunk, or having one night stands. You would probably asume that I was a Christian. If you ever wanted to have a spiritual conversation...you could come to me...most likely, I wouldn't approach you...and force the issue. I will admit on the Hell issue, that it did become an issue during a low point in my life...I had the barrel of a 12 guage shot gun in my mouth, with tears streaming down my face...I didn't pull the trigger. It wasn't because an angel came down and talked me out of it, or any religious conviction...I was leading a heathen life. Instead, I remembered a book I had read during my 'Liberal College education days" called Dante's Inferno. In that book... Suicides, were sent to Hell. Ultimately, my kids were the reason I didn't follow through...but Dante' definitely had me thinking.

[Antlerman]

I don't spend anytime thinking about hell now...I doubt I will then.  The Bible says that there won't be any pain or sorrow in heaven...I don't have a clue how that all pans out. 

And this notion of a pain-free paradise doesn't impress you in the least as being a mythological creation of the down-trodden and oppressed, dreaming of a better tomorrow? I'm sorry to hear about the struggles you've had in your life, but in all honesty we usually grow through adversities. That's what it is to be a human being. Think of how screwed up little rich kids become because they are never challenged to overcome adversity, or how quickly some people fade away after they retire versus those who continue to work?

 

If we try to rationalize the illogic of "heaven" by claiming this magical paradise is foreign to anything in our experience and therefore cannot be critiqued as such, then why should that motivate a human being or having any meaning to anyone whatsoever if it has no connection our lives? Clearly the writers of the Bible thought it had a connection to our reality and would therefore be meaningful to the reader - just as it is to you. But it is illogical and only makes sense in the context of mythology. The simplest explanation is typically the right one.

[Guest no surprises]

And this notion of a pain-free paradise doesn't impress you in the least as being a mythological creation of the down-trodden and oppressed, dreaming of a better tomorrow?  I'm sorry to hear about the struggles you've had in your life, but in all honesty we usually grow through adversities.  That's what it is to be a human being.  Think of how screwed up little rich kids become because they are never challenged to overcome adversity, or how quickly some people fade away after they retire versus those who continue to work?

 

If we try to rationalize the illogic of "heaven" by claiming this magical paradise is foreign to anything in our experience and therefore cannot be critiqued as such, then why should that motivate a human being or having any meaning to anyone whatsoever if it has no connection our lives?  Clearly the writers of the Bible thought it had a connection to our reality and would therefore be meaningful to the reader - just as it is to you.  But it is illogical and only makes sense in the context of mythology.  The simplest explanation is typically the right one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

A-Man,

I agree with some of what you say most definitely! I've mentoned very little about me, but I am all about overcoming adversity...I'm actually missing both arms, and am an incomplete parapalegic...I'm also the founder/director of a non-profit ministry called Overcomer Outreach. I believed before my accident 6.5 yrs ago and was committed tto Jesus Christ. If I didn't believe that heaven was way beyond human comprehension, and infinitely better than life here on earth...well...let's just say ...I'd end it now. I can't explain any of it with man's wisdom...that's why it was such a tough concept for the Greeks...they were all about worldly wisdom. It definitely doesn't jive...I feel sorry for any apologetics guy that comes here and thinks he is going to battle it out with the bright, well-educated folks here...they can't ever win. Logic doesn't keep me believing...just as when something seems illogical to my puny intellect...I'm not going to give up my faith.

[dogmatically_challenged]

What concept? Maybe I can save you some time? 

 

BTW, who is Zohar? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its a book that is in the tanach. It is Jewish mysticism.

 

Linkee wiki is a decent tool good for researching further. It is a tool only.

[Antlerman]

A-Man,

I agree with some of what you say most definitely!  I've mentoned very little about me, but I am all about overcoming adversity...I'm actually missing both arms, and am an incomplete parapalegic...I'm also the founder/director of a non-profit ministry called Overcomer Outreach.  I believed before my accident 6.5 yrs ago and was committed tto Jesus Christ.  If I didn't believe that heaven was way beyond human comprehension, and infinitely better than life here on earth...well...let's just say ...I'd end it now.  I can't explain any of it with man's wisdom...that's why it was such a tough concept for the Greeks...they were all about worldly wisdom.  It definitely doesn't jive...I feel sorry for any apologetics guy that comes here and thinks he is going to battle it out with the bright, well-educated folks here...they can't ever win.  Logic doesn't keep me believing...just as when something seems illogical to my puny intellect...I'm not going to give up my faith.

You seem a truly sincere person, one who is genuine in their beliefs, and I respect what you earlier said about how your program operates. My main problem with many religious programs is the underlying ulterior motives of trying to make converts. It comes across as trying to make a sale, not sincere love. How many times have we seen how happy and nice people are when they walk into a church? It's like walking into a retail store that works off commissions. Ask for nothing, expect nothing, and you have my respect.

 

I have no problem with people who don't try to make their beliefs logically defensible. To them, it's about symbolisms that inspire and motivate. Where I push back hard is when Christians try to reconcile things historically and scientifically with the Bible, rather than just treating it as a religious book of faith. The evidence is overwhelmingly against it being a book of accurate human knowledge, but as far as religious symbolism goes, that isn't something that qualifies for scientific critique. It's two different things.

 

My best to you...

[SpaceMonk]

Hi SpaceMonk! It seems to me that somewhere along the way, the 'Christian' movement clearly wanted to 'scare' people into heaven.    IMO, what a mistake! ...

 

These are the words of Jesus you are calling a mistake.

 

...It is my opinion that hell is not a permanent place, I believe it to be a state of mind.  ...

 

That's a fine opinion, and I'd even agree, but that is not christianity.

 

...I is my opinion that once a person has found correction for their ways, then they make the transition to eternal life.

 

How do you get that out of either of the words 'eternal' or 'everlasting' punishment?

 

I don't see how those definitions you gave are relevant.

'Punishment' may well be taken to mean correction in any other case, except in this case it is qualified with the words 'everlasting', or 'eternal' depending on your version (no difference really).

 

You can believe different to the bible if you want, but you can't call it christianity, let alone defend it with an unbiblical concept.

[Amanda]

These are the words of Jesus you are calling a mistake.

That's a fine opinion, and I'd even agree, but that is not christianity.

How do you get that out of either of the words 'eternal' or 'everlasting' punishment?

 

I don't see how those definitions you gave are relevant.

'Punishment' may well be taken to mean correction in any other case, except in this case it is qualified with the words 'everlasting', or 'eternal' depending on your version (no difference really).

 

You can believe different to the bible if you want, but you can't call it christianity, let alone defend it with an unbiblical concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

SpaceMonk, you're right that my concepts may NOT be categorized as the 'traditional' concept of the label 'Christianity'. I do consider myself a follower of Christ though.

 

Perhaps the everlasting punishment, purging, is used till the detrimental behavior is gone? The punishment, repercussions from our disrespectful actions/thoughts, lasts for the time till these are gone. A purification process, found in these following verses...

 

1 Corinthians 3

3:13

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

3:14

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

3:15

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

Mt 3:12

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Heb 12:29

For * * our God is a consuming fire.

1Pe 1:7

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Tit 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

If one has no foundations on which to stand, that may be the bottomless pit? If land is from volcanoes, and one didn't know the word 'lava', perhaps one would call it the 'lake of fire'? Could it be here, in a certain state of mind, that we could be in the lake of fire with weeping and gnashing of teeth? Jesus says the kingdom of God is within us, heaven, so is it possible that the war between heaven and hell is inside each one of us?

[Checkmate]

Perhaps the everlasting punishment, purging, is used till the detrimental behavior is gone? The punishment, repercussions from our disrespectful actions/thoughts, lasts for the time till these are gone. A purification process, found in these following verses...

Amanda, it is obvious that you are grasping at straws in an attempt to defend a reprehensible belief system. How else can you use the words "everlasting punishment" in one breath and then in the next suggest that this punishment is only UNTIL we are purged? You're not making any sense.

 

Besides which, the bible CLEARLY has "eternal torture" in mind. NOT corrective measures so that we may be made good. This is CLEARLY your own fantasy imposed upon scripture as you rebel against the obvious truths written before you.

[Guest no surprises]

You seem a truly sincere person, one who is genuine in their beliefs, and I respect what you earlier said about how your program operates.  Thanks A-man!  My main problem with many religious programs is the underlying ulterior motives of trying to make converts.  It comes across as trying to make a sale, not sincere love. How many times have we seen how happy and nice people are when they walk into a church?  It's like walking into a retail store that works off commissions.  Ask for nothing, expect nothing, and you have my respect.  Wow, you are so right on with that...That is a huge misconception among people who consider themselves Christians...it's almost as though they get a hash mark for everyone that says the magical prayer with them.  I believe that many folks aren't well-meaning...they believe that they are earning their way to heaven.  Everytime I meet a super friendly outgoing person that seems to have many of the same interests that I've shared with them...they want to be friends...they even want to take me to lunch!  Wow, it's cool.  Until They reveal to me there that they are in some multi-level marketing ploy...no it's not Amway...it's something else that they can't reveal...talk about ignorant...I actually fell for this junk twice!  It was way insulting, and actually hurt my feelings a lot...I thought I had met sincere people that were interested in getting to know me...it was just a scam to get me to make money for them.  Sadly, I think that this happens in the world of religion a lot.  I know all about the great commision...I haven't checked the translation, but I don't think it means 'the great sales job.'  I share Christ with people everyday...I would readily admit to being very evangelistic...but not anything like the aforementioned case.  Picture me...missing arms, in a power wheelchair, pulling into a supermarket with a smile on my face...not a phony, everything in my life is perfect smile...but with real laugh lines...someone that truly loves their life despite some seemingly grim circumstances.  People stare at me, and wonder if I'm brain injured...they approach me to investigate...they speak in a loud voice...I respond with a smile and coherent reply...I don't drool...They say "wow, you have a great attitude."  They don't understand how I could have joy or peace in my circumstances.  I know that it is a life-changing, supernatural, intimate relationship with jesus that keeps me going, and fills me up when I am down.  Sometimes the conversation goes there...but not always, and only if THEY take it there.  That is evangelizing in it's purest form...for me.  We gave out over 20,000 lbs of food last month...that, to me is sharing Jesus Christ...because if He were walking the earth today in human form...I believe He would be there with us...among the drug addicts, prostitutes, homeless, mentally ill, and poverty stricken...loving them, and meeting their physical needs.  Throughout the day people come in...just to talk, and enjoy a cool drink.  Frequently they haven't bathed in weeks(It's been in the 90's here) they like to be about 12 inches from someone when they talk...they have 3 teeth...more like partial teeth.  We listen..sometimes for hours...We don't pull out a Bible and explain why there life has been so terrible, we don't talk about eternal destiny...we just listen, sometimes we pray...but usually just listen, put our arm around them, and tell them we love them...no hash marks, no recognition, no glory...but there is nothing more rewarding.

 

I have no problem with people who don't try to make their beliefs logically defensible.  If the Bible is true...then it is absolutely, undeniably, impossible for a believer to logically prove anything to someone who isn't being supernaturally called by the Holy Spirit.  Logic was invented by man...As Christians, we can't expect A God, that preceded us, and even created us...to fit within our "logic box."  I believe that it is 100% impossible for me or any other person that claims to be a Christian to talk anyone into their need for a saviour, and have it be the real deal...It doesn't matter if someone uses emotionalism, superior intellect, scare tactics, family tradition...etc.  That is not a genuine conversion experience to me...you've simply won yourself a convert to emotionalism, or scare tactics...Not to Jesus Christ.  Only the Holy Spirit can convict someone of sin in their life, or help them understand that they need a saviour.  To them, it's about symbolisms that inspire and motivate.  Where I push back hard is when Christians try to reconcile things historically and scientifically with the Bible, rather than just treating it as a religious book of faith.  The evidence is overwhelmingly against it being a book of accurate human knowledge, but as far as religious symbolism goes, that isn't something that qualifies for scientific critique.  It's two different things.

 

My best to you...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My best to you Antlerman...It seems as if we've ventured off of the "hell tracks" that we were on...my apologies.

[Amanda]

Perhaps the everlasting punishment, purging, is used till the detrimental behavior is gone? The punishment, repercussions from our disrespectful actions/thoughts, lasts for the time till these are gone. A purification process, found in these following verses...

Amanda, it is obvious that you are grasping at straws in an attempt to defend a reprehensible belief system. How else can you use the words "everlasting punishment" in one breath and then in the next suggest that this punishment is only UNTIL we are purged? You're not making any sense.

 

Besides which, the bible CLEARLY has "eternal torture" in mind. NOT corrective measures so that we may be made good. This is CLEARLY your own fantasy imposed upon scripture as you rebel against the obvious truths written before you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mr Grinch, you are really wonderful! Really! I just admire the sophistication in the way you have said that you think I have gone over into the deep end! Nice and tactful, what an art! I DO appreciate your courtesy, and I must say that I got a wonderful chuckle at such a diplomatic effort! Yet, remember... I DO appreciate it! I've gotten much worse from others, needless to say.

 

Seriously Mr. Grinch, I look at the Bible as being all truth, and truth does not contradict truth. It is my belief that we are in everlasting punishment, punishment lasting for as ever long as the misbehaviour does! It seems Bible verses have little effect with you, soooooo I'll try reason!

 

I do believe that ALL are saved already. You, me, all on ExChristian.net, and EVERYONE else. All of us have to be held accountable and responsible for our actions though. Consider if in the beginning, all there was is God, then EVERYTHING came out of God. Jesus came out of God in the beginning. Christ is the beginning and the end, and I believe he/God are everything in between! Then, all things are parts of God. Therefore, God will not throw away any part of himself, would you?

 

Additionally, I believe that Jesus came to save the world and he never fails. Also, God said that if he had 100 sheep and one left, he would leave the 99 and go get the one, and I think God never fails. Think about it.

 

When God says he is going to separate the chaste from the wheat, it doesn't mean that you are wheat and I am chaste... so I will be gone! No! What it means is that there is wheat and chaste in each one of us, and the chaste in each one of us is to be burned off. The book of Revelations says something like a quarter of all the population will be gone. It does not mean where there is four, one of us is going. No! It means a quarter of each one of us is going... BTW, it's the problem quarter.

 

There is an anology of us being incense in the book of Revelations. It says that we are incense on the golden altar. We will burn off our carnal, outside nature... till we are left as pure spirit form, smoke, which is a sweet smell to God.

 

We were made from the dust, our carnal nature, and God blew his spirit into us. The devil has been given the job to eat the dust all the days of his life. He is an adversary to our carnal nature, not our spirit! Our spirit has no adversary... but ourself in its denial. Yet, the spirit will eventually win every time! I do have scripture to validate my findings if you'd like.

 

Mr. Grinch, it's just something to possibly think about when you have lots of extra time on your hands....

[Skankboy]

Consider if in the beginning, all there was is God, then EVERYTHING came out of God.

 

No offense Amanda, but have you ever considered why the christian god would even do this?

[Checkmate]

Mr Grinch, you are really wonderful! Really! I just admire the sophistication in the way you have said that you think I have gone over into the deep end! Nice and tactful, what an art! I DO appreciate your courtesy, and I must say that I got a wonderful chuckle at such a diplomatic effort! Yet, remember... I DO appreciate it! I've gotten much worse from others, needless to say. 

 

Thanks (I think). One of the few skills I managed to acquire over the years, has been the art of communicating directions to "hell" in such a way that the recipient actually looks forward to the trip. Not many people notice that about me. You are to be commended for your discernment.

 

Seriously Mr. Grinch, I look at the Bible as being all truth, and truth does not contradict truth. It is my belief that we are in everlasting punishment, punishment lasting for as ever long as the misbehaviour does! It seems Bible verses have little effect with you, soooooo I'll try reason!

 

.......snipped for brevity's sake.............

 

Um...I'm still waiting for "reason". What you posted was more of your (and others') fantasy/interpretation. I've heard such preaching before concerning universal salvation and how Jesus was talking about only burning the "tares" WITHIN us. I thought it was bunk when I was a believer (so do other Xians), and I think it's bull cookies today. So no dice. Try again. And next time DO TRY "REASON", not your interpretations of scripture (which, you are correct, I don't respect).

 

Mr. Grinch, it's just something to possibly think about when you have lots of extra time on your hands....

Why, thank you. But really, ALL my time is "extra". I'm retired and can do whatever I please, for however long I please. And it really takes no time at all to refute spurious ideologies and fancy. All I do is skip it as I would skip bad portions of a movie on DVD. Particularly when I've seen such dreck before.

 

Actually, Amanda. You don't REALLY need to respond to any of my baiting, as I don't believe you have an adequate answer from the Christian™ perspective. As has been already established, YOU ARE NO TRUE CHRISTIAN™. YOURS is a "spiritual walk", which, although I respect, has NO bearing on "DEBATING WITH CHRISTIANS".

 

I'm sorry, but just as I resolved with the poster formerly known as "Jay", debating with you is akin to an apostate atheist (me) debating with a "gnostic heretic" (you). (i.e. We're one Christian™ short for this debate.)

 

What's the point?

[Antlerman]

My best to you Antlerman...It seems as if we've ventured off of the "hell tracks" that we were on...my apologies.

I don't think it's too off topic. The original question was essentially about the purpose or the logic of a hell in Christian theology. Promises of heaven and threats of hell operate essentially the same, and what we are discussing looks at how that affects peoples motives to either convert or to evangelize. But it is good to question whether we're too off topic.

 

BTW, a tip for adding replies with quotes: If you click the quote tab at the bottom of someone's reply, then click the reply tab, it will set the flags so it separates out that person's words. Then you just start your reply below the end flag for the quote. It make's it much easier to read who's saying what.

 

I'm going to consider more of a response, but I need to focus elsewhere for the moment....

[Antlerman]

If the Bible is true...then it is absolutely, undeniably, impossible for a believer to logically prove anything to someone who isn't being supernaturally called by the Holy Spirit.  Logic was invented by man...As Christians, we can't expect A God, that preceded us, and even created us...to fit within our "logic box."  I believe that it is 100% impossible for me or any other person that claims to be a Christian to talk anyone into their need for a saviour, and have it be the real deal...It doesn't matter if someone uses emotionalism, superior intellect, scare tactics, family tradition...etc.  That is not a genuine conversion experience to me...you've simply won yourself a convert to emotionalism, or scare tactics...Not to Jesus Christ.  Only the Holy Spirit can convict someone of sin in their life, or help them understand that they need a saviour.

Again, my respects to you for the work you are doing, what's more that it seems to come from the heart, and not some pretence of kindness for the sake of a religious ideology. I see this as coming from you.

 

With someone as yourself I feel somewhat hesitant to dissect and criticize the specifics of the beliefs because of how they appear to operate within your life. I don't want to destroy something that is positive for someone. But with others, I feel compelled to do so quite often, because what I hear is more of social/political ideologies cloaked under the name of God, calling on his authority for the sake of legitimizing their own views and silencing opposition, "It's says right here in the Bible..." The ensuing trains of logic would be mostly laughable if it weren't so often disrespectful and dangerous.

 

Unfortunately, this largely defines what Christianity has been all about throughout history. I lean toward it having done more harm than good. Not that it has been nothing but bad. But I see the good that comes out of it as being much more a testimony to the hearts of some individuals, not the system as a whole. Christianity is a system of symbols that gives voice and power to great ideals that are in the hearts of some individuals, but inherently it is also a system of symbols ripe for political exploitation.

 

All for now...

[Amanda]

No offense Amanda, but have you ever considered why the christian god would even do this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the journey, the experiences? Companionship? I just think that he had the destination all figured out before he started.

[Amanda]

When God says he is going to separate the chaste from the wheat, it doesn't mean that you are wheat and I am chaste... so I will be gone! No! What it means is that there is wheat and chaste in each one of us, and the chaste in each one of us is to be burned off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Correction please! I was sent a nice PM advising me that probably the word I meant to use was 'chaff' NOT 'chaste'! My apologies. I stand corrected.

[Skankboy]

For the journey, the experiences? Companionship? I just think that he had the destination all figured out before he started. 

 

Sorry Amanda, that really was a loaded question. One of my issues seems to be that I hold the concept of "God" to a much higher standard than most. For me, a "perfect" being wouldn't require any of these. But I'm hijacking here, so I'll let it rest...

 

[Amanda]

Hi Thankful, thanks for the compliment (I think) on your reference of my spiritually inspired interpretations of the Bible. I think that it is more commendable of those here with such honorable spirituality/integrity, despite their literal interpretations of the Bible in their past. IMO.

I must ask, are you saying that god made a huge mistake that has lasted thousands/millions of years before jesus?  I mean, those poor souls who never had the jesus/conscience before the cross.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Poor souls? Are we poor souls for going through evolution? Is a baby a poor soul to evolve out of being a baby to an adult? Do we still tend to linger onto our cowboy and indian days? Davy Crocket and other explorers had quite an adventure! The Greeks, the Romans, the Pagans, the Egyptians, and more... all were experiencing a marvel of their times... we even appreciate in awe today! Imagine if we were there now for a couple of days!

What kind of loving god would allow people to suffer with no conscience like that for milleniums?  Would allow all that evil to continue for milleniums. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thankful, there seems to be an evolution of a conscience, and it seems there is not much research in that area yet... as consciousness itself seems to be quite the mystery. It is my understanding that man just came out of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago, afterwards a wheat evolved that could be successfully sowed and harvested, permitting a surplus of food... allowing permanent living conditions instead of a nomadic lifestyle... this brought many social changes as well as changes in aspects of reason. My research shows the conscience evolved from a sense of duty to care for young, to obligation, to rewards and punishment for actions, to pleasure in what pleases and displeasure in what ought to displease, to an honor of customs... and at the time of Jesus there is suppose to be a reformation of the conscience. My research doesn't reveal an aspect I have come to attribute to Christ outside the Bible till about a thousand years later... a conscience that seeks the desires of Truth equated with emotional reactions. Then about 1200 CE with Bonaventure that finally recognizes a two part conscience with a drive to reconcile the two! The Bible seems to recognize this in the first century, right after Jesus's death! I just want to get corraborating evidence outside the Bible. It is interesting to note that the word conscience is a connotation to 'with science'.... so 'with reasoning to know'?

Now, Christ came and things are supposedly better than ever because, according to your theology, EVERYONE has Christ.  If that is true, why are things in the world getting worse and not better?  Why still the SAME evils as before Christ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Things are getting worse? I think things are definitely getting much better! It may seem worse as the worldwide communication is better, and more of it. Yet, we don't feed people to the lions anymore, like we go to a football game on weekends. We don't lock people in dungeons, nor have common elaborate torture chambers. We have international codes in how to even treat prisoners of war! We've even put ol' Sparky to rest! The year we had the Columbine massacre, we had less deaths that year in schools than many years previously. We don't nail people to the cross anymore, and we seek to upgrade our treatment of animals all the time! Our laws and regards to children to end child abuse have come a long way! Heck, look at women's rights alone! I think we are always seeking to perfect things, and that is good IMO.

The bible says only those in christ are saved, so what about the people BEFORE Christ?  I'm asking this question based on your interpretations of the bible.  And if they are saved anyway, and there are still evils, why did christ have to die?  Nothing has changed.  People did good BEFORE Christ, people were loving BEORE Christ, and people were evil BEFORE Christ and many are "evil" AFTER Christ.  I'm having trouble seeing anything wonderful about Christ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thankful, the Bible says that Jesus is the alpha and the omega... and I ask you.... what about everyone in between?

 

Jesus was a great social revolutionist too. He came for the oppressed. His principles were liberating and uplifting to a humbly, self empowered position. Self empowered by a part within each person, the Christ nature in them too. Jesus showed how emotional healing brought physical healing, he lived his life according to his principles even unto death. He was our role model being a man who walked like God. I am into a very metaphysical aspect of Jesus, and sense in some way he left his Spirit here, divided amongst us, to guide us into an utterly divine place of joy and peace. I don't think it needs to happen too fast though, because we lose some things once we are all of 'like' minds. I like the journey too.

[Amethyst]

I do believe that ALL are saved already.

 

This is the definition of Universalism. Universalism does not equal Christianity, although there are some Christians who consider themselves Unitarian Universalists, I think.

[Amanda]

Sorry Amanda, that really was a loaded question.  One of my issues seems to be that I hold the concept of "God" to a much higher standard than most.  For me, a "perfect" being wouldn't require any of these.  But I'm hijacking here, so I'll let it rest...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi Skankboy! Previously, in this thread, you presented part of my post, "Consider if in the beginning, all there was is God, then EVERYTHING came out of God. " And you asked if I had considered why a christian god would do this... I believe. I responded, for the experience and companionship.

 

You now say you asked me a loaded question? Although you usually disagree with me most times, if not all times, my memories are that you are always genuinely respectful of all people, and have insights from which I gain much. I am very interested in your opinions!

 

I think that in the beginning, 'God' started out in a singularity. Therefore, everything came out of God, and is therefore parts of God. He created opposing forces to experience sensations, emotionally and physically. Causes of detrimental emotional forces/drives seem to be held in 'check' and diminish to nothing by hell, a purification process. We are enhanced by these earthly experiences and these lessons without eternally clinging to the maladaptive resources that allowed them. We end up a better person, more depth and a stronger character. It seems like a perfect plan to me.

 

I would be very interested in what your opinions of a perfect God are, what standards do you hold him to, and perhaps your applicable interpretation of hell... IF you have one!

[Guest no surprises]

Again, my respects to you for the work you are doing, what's more that it seems to come from the heart, and not some pretence of kindness for the sake of a religious ideology.  I see this as coming from you.

 

With someone as yourself I feel somewhat hesitant to dissect and criticize the specifics of the beliefs because of how they appear to operate within your life.  I don't want to destroy something that is positive for someone.  But with others, I feel compelled to do so quite often, because what I hear is more of social/political ideologies cloaked under the name of God, calling on his authority for the sake of legitimizing their own views and silencing opposition, "It's says right here in the Bible..."  The ensuing trains of logic would be mostly laughable if it weren't so often disrespectful and dangerous.

 

Unfortunately, this largely defines what Christianity has been all about throughout history.  I lean toward it having done more harm than good.  Not that it has been nothing but bad.  But I see the good that comes out of it as being much more a testimony to the hearts of some individuals, not the system as a whole.  Christianity is a system of symbols that gives voice and power to great ideals that are in the hearts of some individuals, but inherently it is also a system of symbols ripe for political exploitation.

 

All for now...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Antlerman,

I'll let you know that I have pretty thick skin from when I used to hang out here. Initially I was absolutely ripped to shreds...after awhile we had some great discussions, and the regulars saved their rage for the extremely ignorant and disingenuous. Ultimately nearly everyone treated me respectfully...

I enjoy hearing your opinions and perspective...hearing the 'pat' exchristian responses and comments gets as old as the 'pat' Christian answers. Christianity today is a joke...I'll be the 1st to admit it. When and shortly after Jesus Christ walked the earth things were much different...there were issues and problems because people were involved...but overall I think things were good. That is the Church that I identify myself with. Jesus Christ set the standard as far as I am concerned...not the pope, or baptist convention, or anyone else. Even in reading this thread you can see the huge gap among "Christians"...I am getting off track again...Please just do me one favor...Don't hold back, or resist responding because I seem to be a decent guy. I truly am interested in learning more about the real you and hopefully understanding where you're coming from. I'll do the same for you. I agree with most everything you said here...when I disagree...I'll let you know...lol.

Talk to u soon,

Jeff

[Amanda]

If there is a god, I hope it isn't the one of the NT because if it is, eternal torture awaits almost everyone. I have no doubt that a being that cruel would resort to such a horrendous act.  Tears come to my eyes thinking that the bible deity(ies) are real, it would be a nightmare come true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thankful, I understand from where you are coming, in saying this. Additionally, in regards to what seems to be most of the religous right's spin on the Bible, to what appears to me to promote THEIR agenda, not God's... it DOES look scary. And if they are right, I'll be in hell with you and most of the fine folks on this site. As I've said before in regards to this situation, I'll be with the best company. IMO, I've met more wonderful people here than almost any church I've ever attended! Most people on this site are extraordinary in integrity and kindness... and whatever got them there, I wouldn't change it... especially you!

 

BTW, I might not read as much as you think... I just might be older than you think... but, hey... don't tell anyone.

[zfunkman]

. Additionally, in regards to what seems to be most of the religous right's spin on the Bible, to what appears to me to promote THEIR agenda, not God's... it DOES look scary.    BTW, I might not read as much as you think... I just might be older than you think... but, hey... don't tell anyone. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of us here have read the bible OURSELVES and it really isn't that hard to understand. We don't just get bible info from the "chrstian right". We have read it and have discarded it as garbage. Its quite obvious that the you have your own special way of inerpreting the bible. I have an aquaintance who has the exact same views as you about jesus and the bible. I'm not even sure why you use a bible. The jesus you describe is not the same jesus that is in the bible. It is a different character altogether. Love and consciousness are as old as humanity. Even if the same words were not used for "consciousness". Kinda like the Earth was still round when people thought it was flat. You have a religion/belief/way of life that you have made up. I don't really believe that you came up with all special ways of interpreting the bible all by yourself, since I have heard your sugar coated version before. Its based on a made up character named jesus who you claim is the same one in the bible. Its not; even though the bible jesus is also made up. Your jesus is all warm, fuzzy, sweet, kittens and love, etc. The bible jesus condems most people to eternal torture and christians want nothing more than to be with him anyway. This forum is "Debating Christians". I wish you would keep your OPINIONS to yourself and let the christians come in here and fend for themselves. If your OPINIONS were original I would call your beliefs Amandism but its not original. Though you do seem like a decent person your bible opinions are starting to irritate the hell out me. The bible is a book of words and it says what it says and anyone who believes in it or TRIES WAY TOO HARD to believe in it is very disconected with reality.

[Nicole Simon]

I'm new here, and for the most part have been merely observing (albeit sometime with a raised eyebrow) . . .However I must admit (painfully, I add) that Mr. Grinch makes a good point: He believes Amanda is 'looking away' from the Truth. And I, for one, believe he is right: The Bible does indeed speak of a 'literal' Hell; (as out of and beyond this world as the message of Love brought into it by the appearance Jesus Christ in the flesh.)

 

Sadly, there are many within the Faith seeking to dilute that message in an effort to make the Gospel more palatable.

 

What are we to do with someone who lives solely for their own pleasure -- even when the fulfillment of that pleasure comes at the expense of others? Are you to tell me, Amanda, that the Saved will someday rejoice over inequity? And if, as you say, their soiled garments will come clean in the afterlife laundry, then what was the purpose of God in sending Jesus Christ as Savior? If we can 'get it right' later, wasn't that whole crucifixion business a little extreme. I'd be ticked, if I went the extra mile with a cross on my back, to find out later that salvation could've been 'phoned in' from on high with no bloody muss or fuss.

 

Better go back and take a more balanced look at what is being said: Not all will be saved. It's an unappealing prospect, assuredly. But it's inescapable if you look at the Gospel on whole. I urge you to do so. It makes the case of living a worthy life in the Lord all the more imperative.

 

I know you mean well, Amanda. But it's not incumbent upon you to make the Gospel's appealing (that is, in a Madison Avenue sense) because, clearly, they are not: one glance at the martyred through the ages will tell you they are not.

 

Love, Nicole Simon

[Antlerman]

Antlerman,

I'll let you know that I have pretty thick skin from when I used to hang out here.  Initially I was absolutely ripped to shreds...after awhile we had some great discussions, and the regulars saved their rage for the extremely ignorant and disingenuous.  Ultimately nearly everyone treated me respectfully...

I enjoy hearing your opinions and perspective...hearing the 'pat' exchristian responses and comments gets as old as the 'pat' Christian answers.  Christianity today is a joke...I'll be the 1st to admit it.  When and shortly after Jesus Christ walked the earth things were much different...there were issues and problems because people were involved...but overall I think things were good.  That is the Church that I identify myself with.  Jesus Christ set the standard as far as I am concerned...not the pope, or baptist convention, or anyone else.  Even in reading this thread you can see the huge gap among "Christians"...I am getting off track again...Please just do me one favor...Don't hold back, or resist responding because I seem to be a decent guy.  I truly am interested in learning more about the real you and hopefully understanding where you're coming from.  I'll do the same for you.  I agree with most everything you said here...when I disagree...I'll let you know...lol.

Talk to u soon,

Jeff

Thanks for the comments. To try to pull back a little into topic and explain a little of where I come from, I see everything now in the Bible as explainable through purely natural sources. The concept of hell and heaven are going to be best understood best in the same light. I honestly don't know the detailed historical look at the idea of hell, but I am as confident that it was an idea that evolved over time, just as every other idea in the Bible and on the planet has. I'll wind up doing some research into this one, but lately I've been more focused on the historicity of Jesus issues. Suffice to say, it is a concept from men and not a god.

 

A brief history of my deconversion: I used to believe that the Bible was the word of God and was accurate, reliable, and authoritative. I strongly desired to know more about God and teach others. I studied the Bible in depth and began to see cracks in it that could not be explained away. I resolved to face these doubts head on and examine the Bible objectively with an open mind, weighing the evidences. I reasoned that if it is the truth of God it can withstand being questioned. On the other side, I will then feel totally confident in it and be more convicted in its truth to share with others. If not, then better I not be a liar telling people something I know to be less than what I claim it is. It didn't stand up.

 

In a nutshell: When we take the fantastical elements out of the Bible, it becomes crystal clear and becomes reasonable and realistic. When we look it as a product of cultural evolution, it is not worthless, but a product of man. One that at times can be inspiring, but at other times more a fascinating time capsule of history and mythological stories. It doesn't make the Bible worthless, but it makes it palatable. Because it is from men, it is not absolute and authoritative.

 

Often the debates about the doctrine of hell are for the purpose of showing the inherent problems of logic with such dogmatic theologies. It's interesting for arguments sake, but ultimately this issue is irrelevant, understanding it was an idea that began with men in a cultural long ago, not to be taken at face value on the pages of the Bible as coming from the mouth of a god. It's much more fascinating to me how these things came to be believed, than whether or not it's really true. But I still enjoy the debate.