Once again - questions about Hell

[Amanda]

You have a religion/belief/way of life that you have made up.  I don't really believe that you came up with all special ways of interpreting the bible all by yourself, since I have heard your sugar coated version before.  Its based on a made up character named jesus who you claim is the same one in the bible.  Its not; even though the bible jesus is also made up. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zfunkman, you're right... I didn't make up this way of interpreting the Bible! Never claimed that either! I went to seminary 3+ years, where it was taught how to research the meaning of words, how they evolved back to their prime root meaning... from the manuscript which the KJV was translated. Plus I take into account other considerations. I never studied doctorinal teachings, just the Bible. (The two Deans of my seminary were from Yale and Princeton, FWIW.) Thanks for sharing your opinions with me.... as you know, we all have one.

[Amanda]

Amanda, my views aren't from the Christian right.  Mine come from what the bible says.....the bible is scary on it's own without the help of Christians.

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I apologize if you got that interpretation... that is NOT what I meant! I'm just saying that considering the 'spin' from many on the religous right, that also makes it scarier. I never meant you thought that way, Thankful. My IMPRESSION of you... even when you were a Christian is that you never condemned other people, never threatened people with hell, you were probably like I use to be... I use to be too busy condemning myself to worry about other people.... Although I know the way I interpret the Bible is not common. I took this class, fairly early on in seminary, about deciphering the signs and symbols in Revelation. I picked the Seven Seals. Completing that project... I realized that much of the Bible makes more sense, has a more cohesive quality when I applied it to much of the text... not all of it! It seems like many hidden messages jump out!

[Amanda]

Hello Nicole Simon! Welcome to these forums!

 

I must say that I have not entered into a debate with another Christian, nor do I know if they even allow it here. I suppose we believe in the same main guy for leadership and guidance... just different interpretations of it. It does seem that I am not regarded much here as a Christian with traditional concepts... although I have my theology based on the Bible. If it would be allowed on this site, I'd be very happy to have a friendly debate with you on an agreeable topic to both of us... like universal salvation? I am leaving for a long weekend tomarrow morning, so I might not have access to a computer till Sunday night. I will respond to some of your post now though.

 

Sadly, there are many within the Faith seeking to dilute that message in an effort to make the Gospel more palatable.

 

What are we to do with someone who lives solely for their own pleasure -- even when the fulfillment of that pleasure comes at the expense of others? Are you to tell me, Amanda, that the Saved will someday rejoice over inequity? And if, as you say, their soiled garments will come clean in the afterlife laundry, then what was the purpose of God in sending Jesus Christ as Savior? If we can 'get it right' later, wasn't that whole crucifixion business a little extreme. I'd be ticked, if I went the extra mile with a cross on my back, to find out later that salvation could've been 'phoned in' from on high with no bloody muss or fuss. 

 

Better go back and take a more balanced look at what is being said: Not all will be saved. It's an unappealing prospect, assuredly. But it's inescapable if you look at the Gospel on whole. I urge you to do so. It makes the case of living a worthy life in the Lord all the more imperative.

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Nicole, could you answer a few questions for me?

 

First, do you think that Jesus can fail? Whatever Jesus sets out to do, can he fail?

 

Second, do you think God can fail? Whatever God sets out to do, can he fail?

 

Do you think the whole Bible is true, if you do... can the Bible contradict itself?

 

I look forward to discussing this with you... and I have a feeling the forum admin's might not mind? Of course now I have to defend myself from both sides... and that's ok.

 

Have a great weekend Nicole! If I can get to internet access while I'm gone, I'll check these forums.

[white_raven23]

What are we to do with someone who lives solely for their own pleasure .....

 

 

Befriend them. They know where all the great parties are.

 

Are you to tell me, Amanda, that the Saved will someday rejoice over inequity? And if, as you say, their soiled garments will come clean in the afterlife laundry, then what was the purpose of God in sending Jesus Christ as Savior? If we can 'get it right' later, wasn't that whole crucifixion business a little extreme. I'd be ticked, if I went the extra mile with a cross on my back, to find out later that salvation could've been 'phoned in' from on high with no bloody muss or fuss. 

 

Unless you can prove the bible is something other than a fictional work, this paragraph is meaningless. You have to prove the bible is the word of god.

 

Welcome to the Forum.

[Nicole Simon]

Zfunkman, you're right... I didn't make up this way of interpreting the Bible! Never claimed that either!  I went to seminary 3+ years, where it was taught how to research the meaning of words, how they evolved back to their prime root meaning... from the manuscript which the KJV was translated. Plus I take into account other considerations. I never studied doctorinal teachings, just the Bible. (The two Deans of my seminary were from Yale and Princeton, FWIW.) Thanks for sharing your opinions with me.... as you know, we all have one. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Congratulations! You've pretty much discovered what unbelievers have been saying for years: You can make the Bible say anything you want. But what's truly remarkable is your loss of 3+ years in the process of discovery!

 

Look ... has the concept of a simple childlike faith escaped you?...If a message of one life, one judgment, and one irrevocable destiny frightens you------or worse, embarrasses you to the point of twisting the Bible's message, then please, do it in words emanating from your own 'belief system' -- not that of a Princeton or Yale grad. (Since when has intellectual achievement become a determinant factor in Man's 'spiritual' enlightenment and progress. If intellect were a factor, Heaven forbid, I should think we'd all be sufficiently damned, in that we use such a low percentage of the brain God has given us!)

 

What I'm trying to impress------and it's difficult to ascertain if I'm been remotely successful because you've yet to respond -- is Jesus was clear, and even more, he was thoroughly descriptive of the varying horrors of Hell. To take poetic license with such phrases as 'wailing and gnashing' and 'outter darkness' is disingenuous at best -- not to mention, intellectually dishonest: we all know first century man could never appreciate nuanced interpretations like the Ivy League men in your life. So can we at least agree that Jesus spoke His message clearly -- and that's precisely why He was crucified. If -- as you purport -- He had said this but what He really meant was that -- well He'd've gotten along fine. They probably would've put him in public office and not on a tree.

 

That's the best scenario, and the worst: if Hell really exists in very much the same manner that it's described, then what shall we say in the hereafter? I'll leave it to your own imagination to create something wonderful to convey to the departed, in lieu of what you should have told them in life.

 

Amanda ... I'm not trying to bust your chops, but I'm not going to blissfully agree just to get along. Please consider, if what you believe is true ... that, as you say, everything comes out in the wash. Then why did Jesus have to die?

 

Right now, zFunkman is displaying more integrity. You are sugarcoating what the Bible says. Even those who've abandoned Christianity recognize that. They know very clearly what Jesus said and what He didn't say. They don't believe any of it, which is OK, that's their right ... But they don't 'edit' out that which is offensive in favor of gaining acceptance. Who cares how many disagree. It's not your Word. And it's not your Righteousness.

[white_raven23]

Congratulations! You've pretty much discovered what unbelievers have been saying for years: You can make the Bible say anything you want. But what's truly remarkable is your loss of 3+ years in the process of discovery!

 

Look ... has the concept of a simple childlike faith escaped you?...If a message of one life, one judgment, and one irrevocable destiny frightens you------or worse,  embarrasses you to the point of twisting the Bible's message, then please, do it in words emanating from your own 'belief system' -- not that of a Princeton or Yale grad. (Since when has intellectual achievement become a determinant factor in Man's 'spiritual' enlightenment and progress. If intellect were a factor, Heaven forbid, I should think we'd all be sufficiently damned, in that we use such a low percentage of the brain God has given us!)

 

What I'm trying to impress------and it's difficult to ascertain if I'm been remotely successful because you've yet to respond -- is Jesus was clear, and even more, he was thoroughly descriptive of the varying horrors of Hell. To take poetic license with such phrases as 'wailing and gnashing' and 'outter darkness' is disingenuous at best -- not to mention, intellectually dishonest: we all know first century man could never appreciate nuanced interpretations like the Ivy League men in your life. So can we at least agree that Jesus spoke His message clearly -- and that's precisely why He was crucified. If -- as you purport -- He had said this but what He really meant was that -- well He'd've gotten along fine. They probably would've put him in public office and not on a tree.

 

That's the best scenario, and the worst: if Hell really exists in very much the same manner that it's described, then what shall we say in the hereafter? I'll leave it to your own imagination to create something wonderful to convey to the departed, in lieu of what you should have told them in life.

 

Amanda ... I'm not trying to bust your chops, but I'm not going to blissfully agree just to get along. Please consider, if what you believe is true ... that, as you say, everything comes out in the wash. Then why did Jesus have to die?

 

Right now, zFunkman is displaying more integrity. You are sugarcoating what the Bible says. Even those who've abandoned Christianity recognize that. They know very clearly what Jesus said and what He didn't say. They don't believe any of it, which is OK, that's their right ... But they don't 'edit' out that which is offensive in favor of gaining acceptance. Who cares how many disagree. It's not your Word. And it's not your Righteousness.

 

Funny, it looks like you're "busting chops" to me.

[Nicole Simon]

Amanda: Just posted above. Disregard comment pertaining to your lack of response ... I can see now that I have a few posts to look over. I'll do so and respond. Thanks. Nicole

[Asimov]

Right now, zFunkman is displaying more integrity. You are sugarcoating what the Bible says. Even those who've abandoned Christianity recognize that. They know very clearly what Jesus said and what He didn't say. They don't believe any of it, which is OK, that's their right ... But they don't 'edit' out that which is offensive in favor of gaining acceptance. Who cares how many disagree. It's not your Word. And it's not your Righteousness.

 

 

Nicole, why would "unbelievers" edit out parts of the bible...???

 

It's obviously bullshit, so why bother with it anyways? Your religion is a fallacy, your child-like faith is nothing but willfull ignorance (stupidity), and your ideas are woefully primitive.

[Nicole Simon]

Befriend them. They know where all the great parties are. 

Unless you can prove the bible is something other than a fictional work, this paragraph is meaningless. You have to prove the bible is the word of god.

 

Welcome to the Forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In response to the first -- That's cute, you've got a sense of humor. As to part deux -- it's not incumbent upon me to 'prove' anything: I'd assume, since she claimed to have attended seminary, that Amanda already regards the Bible as something more than a 'fictional' work. Let's hope so, after 3+ years of seminary.

[Nicole Simon]

Where is this "literal" place of eternal torment mentioned in the OT?  Message of love?  Poppycock!!

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Hey thankful: I'm going to assume your question is rhetorical, since you appear to be fully entrenched in unbelief. I've no power to convert one so committed. Why bother? ...besides, isn't it obvious I was debating with Amanda? Apparently not, or your overly healthy ego wouldn't've allowed you to pass by with out chipping in the customary $0.02 -- Okay, got it, you're free to move on.

[Nicole Simon]

Funny, it looks like you're "busting chops" to me. 

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Ha! Look ... Darling, I've already said you, or what you say, is cute. Come any closer and I'll bust yours, your chops. Nicky

[Nicole Simon]

Nicole, why would "unbelievers" edit out parts of the bible...???

 

It's obviously bullshit, so why bother with it anyways?  Your religion is a fallacy, your child-like faith is nothing but willfull ignorance (stupidity), and your ideas are woefully primitive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No Nicky for you. You're just too, too angry little Buckeroo. Chill. Go have a beer. Take a walk. Try and get lucky. Anything. But, sorry Hon, I don't have the time. n

[Nicole Simon]

Seminary doesn't equal staying a Christian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True ... but till she states differently, I'm leaning toward the 'skeptic' on her avatar

[Asimov]

No Nicky for you. You're just too, too angry little Buckeroo. Chill. Go have a beer. Take a walk. Try and get lucky. Anything. But, sorry Hon, I don't have the time. n

 

For someone who chides Amanda on being too interpretive and selective with what the bible says, you seem to do a lot of interpreting yourself of what people say. I'm not sure how you can decide which emotion someone is feeling through words. My tone of writing was critical, yet, of course, you chose it to be an emotional one...big surprise.

[Checkmate]

However I must admit (painfully, I add) that Mr. Grinch makes a good point: He believes Amanda is 'looking away' from the Truth. And I, for one, believe he is right...

Hello, Nicole. I'd get used to that sensation of "pain" around here. Irrefutable truth has that effect on the unwary.

 

Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, let me ask a question that no one else has bothered with. To wit: "What brand of Christian™ are YOU supposed to be?"

 

I ask simply because we get plenty of so-called "Christians" here, and we typically waste time and effort chasing our collective tails arguing pointlessly. If we don't know or are uncertain of what beliefs to which you adhere then we will inevitably ascribe to you our imaginations. Painting with a broad brushed stroke always leads to confusion and misrepresentation.

 

From your postings thus far, I presume you favor a biblical literalism and you support the doctrine of hell. What else? What denomination? Catholic? Protestant? Presbyterian? Baptist? Mennonite? Fundamentalist or Liberal? Evangelical or Charismatic? Help me out here. I don't want to be guilty of "judging" you.

 

I believe your satisfying my curiosity would go a long way towards eliminating much confusion on our part. (Plus we'll be able to discern if YOU are in fact a True Christian™, or simply another "gnostic heretic" playing at Christianity.)

 

Thanks. Oh, and welcome to the Pirahna Tank.

 

P.S. - As for MY bona fides, I am an EX-Christian. Former Charismatic, then Fundy Baptist, then I toyed with being an Anabaptist. No formal schooling in biblical studies, yet I was an elder, preacher, teacher and evangelist. I am now a straight up atheist and anti-theist. I don't believe in Once saved, always saved, nor any other doctrine of the church. God is a fiction. Jesus is a fairy tale. The bible is a forgery founded upon the folklore of Judaism. That's MY bio in a nutshell. Cheerio.

[Nicole Simon]

For someone who chides Amanda on being too interpretive and selective with what the bible says, you seem to do a lot of interpreting yourself of what people say.  I'm not sure how you can decide which emotion someone is feeling through words.  My tone of writing was critical, yet, of course, you chose it to be an emotional one...big surprise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Asimov: If it's possible------and I don't know if it is, what with one-thousand and some odd posts, how do you even keep track of what you're saying, let alone who you're speaking to. But try and go back and check out your first words to me: Then tell me I've no grounds to be defensive, or to be, as you say, 'an emotional one.' Women are emotional, deal with it. There's a lot in the male personality profile we've had to stomach.

 

And, btw, if you approached me on the street in the same manner in which you engaged me on this board ... I'd have called for a cop, right after a light dusting of your face with mace. nighty nite and sweet dreams, nicky

[Nicole Simon]

Nicole, could you answer a few questions for me?

 

First, do you think that Jesus can fail? Whatever Jesus sets out to do, can he fail?

 

Second, do you think God can fail? Whatever God sets out to do, can he fail?

 

Do you think the whole Bible is true, if you do... can the Bible contradict itself?

 

I look forward to discussing this with you... and I have a feeling the forum admin's might not mind? Of course now I have to defend myself from both sides... and that's ok. 

 

Have a great weekend Nicole! If I can get to internet access while I'm gone, I'll check these forums.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you can't find WWW access it'll be all right, in that I'm going to need a little time with your questions. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking it may be necessary to call the L.A.P.D. and have someone from the 'bomb squad' get over here. Amanda ... I'm fearful your questions are loaded and may need to be de-fused. But that's a quick first impression ... I'll take another look ... in the mean time, have a great weekend, I'll look forward to a lively discussion upon your return.

[MQTA]

I'm new here, and for the most part have been merely observing (albeit sometime with a raised eyebrow) . . .However I must admit (painfully, I add) that Mr. Grinch makes a good point: He believes Amanda is 'looking away' from the Truth. And I, for one, believe he is right: The Bible does indeed speak of a 'literal' Hell; (as out of and beyond this world as the message of Love brought into it by the appearance Jesus Christ in the flesh.)

 

Sadly, there are many within the Faith seeking to dilute that message in an effort to make the Gospel more palatable.

 

Oh, no, they don't, not from what I've seen. They NEVER miss an opportunity to insinuate "you're going to hell if you don't believe as I say you should". Either directly or indirectly, but similarly, so there must be a handbook out there somewhere on how to slyly intimate "you're going to hell, and I'm not, nyah nyah nyah"

 

What are we to do with someone who lives solely for their own pleasure -- even when the fulfillment of that pleasure comes at the expense of others? Are you to tell me, Amanda, that the Saved will someday rejoice over inequity? And if, as you say, their soiled garments will come clean in the afterlife laundry, then what was the purpose of God in sending Jesus Christ as Savior? If we can 'get it right' later, wasn't that whole crucifixion business a little extreme. I'd be ticked, if I went the extra mile with a cross on my back, to find out later that salvation could've been 'phoned in' from on high with no bloody muss or fuss. 

 

Some people believe that when He said "It is Done" that all of mankind was saved at that point, once and for all.

 

Better go back and take a more balanced look at what is being said: Not all will be saved. It's an unappealing prospect, assuredly. But it's inescapable if you look at the Gospel on whole. I urge you to do so. It makes the case of living a worthy life in the Lord all the more imperative.

 

Then again, can't go by any of the 4 Gospels... 2 of them are extrapolations from 1, and the other is a whole other planet by itself.

 

I know you mean well, Amanda. But it's not incumbent upon you to make the Gospel's appealing (that is, in a Madison Avenue sense) because, clearly, they are not: one glance at the martyred through the ages will tell you they are not.

 

Love, Nicole Simon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Takes a bit more than one glance to see the 3 synoptics side by side and go Hmmmmmm

[MQTA]

Where is this "literal" place of eternal torment mentioned in the OT?  Message of love?  Poppycock!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I don't know about eternal torment, it's only until the maggots are done feasting. But in the OT, I'm under the impression Hell is just another word for a grave 6' under.

[MQTA]

Asimov: If it's possible------and I don't know if it is, what with one-thousand and some odd posts, how do you even keep track of what you're saying, let alone who you're speaking to. But try and go back and check out your first words to me: Then tell me I've no grounds to be defensive, or to be, as you say, 'an emotional one.' Women are emotional, deal with it. There's a lot in the male personality profile we've had to stomach.

 

And, btw, if you approached me on the street in the same manner in which you engaged me on this board ... I'd have called for a cop, right after a light dusting of your face with mace. nighty nite and sweet dreams, nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, that's a nice loving WWJD reaction, isn't it?

[white_raven23]

Ha! Look ... Darling, I've already said you, or what you say, is cute. Come any closer and I'll bust yours, your chops. Nicky

 

 

That's funny! And so Christian too!

 

In response to the first -- That's cute, you've got a sense of humor. As to part deux -- it's not incumbent upon me to 'prove' anything: I'd assume, since she claimed to have attended seminary, that Amanda already regards the Bible as something more than a 'fictional' work. Let's hope so, after 3+ years of seminary.

 

By the way.....in case you failed to notice, as your kind so often do, this is an EX- christian site. This is our Forum. Those of faith are very welcome to come and debate, but we aren't going to let you just blah blah on an unproven book like the bible as if it is a solid work of reference. It isn't.

 

So YES YOU DO have to prove the bible is the word of god if you are going to fall back on it as reference.

 

If you want to cuss and discuss the merits of the bible as if it is an irrefuteable tome.....go to a Christian Forum. They will treat the bible as fact. We will not.

[Nicole Simon]

Well, you are on an exchristian site, and you posted in debates.  Funny, I wasn't bitchy with you at all and yet, you treat me with bitchiness.  I look forward to meeting you in hell

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

C'mon now, thankful, let's try and lighten up. You've so much to live for: though you're not as nasty as Asimov, you are beating him in the post department, and that's something to be 'thankful' for. What? You've got almost 2000, so I'm not going to be offended that by the time you got to me you could only spit out a sentence or two followed by ... Poppycock!? ... Poppycock? What are you ... 112? Who uses the term Poppycock ... or is it a 'retro' thing I'm unaware of?

 

Look ... I'll restate the same to you as I did Asimov: You approached me with all the grace of a stumble-bum-drunk at last call. Come on nice, and I'll be nice. It's a 2-way street and I abide by the law of reciprocity. Try it and see, sugar. Be nice and I'll be nice. Nicky's promise.

 

ps If you've noticed ... I've gotten along fine with 'raven' and 'Mr. Grinch' -- love his name, and I also look forward to discussions with antlerman and others who exhibit panache otherwise not found in these parts. Toodles for now, Nicole

[MQTA]

 

 

That's funny! And so Christian too!

By the way.....in case you failed to notice, as your kind so often do, this is an EX- christian site. This is our Forum. Those of faith are very welcome to come and debate, but we aren't going to let you just blah blah on an unproven book like the bible as if it is a solid work of reference. It isn't.

 

So YES YOU DO have to prove the bible is the word of god if you are going to fall back on it as reference.

 

If you want to cuss and discuss the merits of the bible as if it is an irrefuteable tome.....go to a Christian Forum. They will treat the bible as fact. We will not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Great avatar! But I'm allergic to your God

 

So, know of any Good ChristianForums .com ? LOL

[white_raven23]

Nicole, FYI

 

The post count under our avatars is not a daily count. It's our number of total posts since joining the Forum.

 

So thankful and Asimov are frequent posters yes. That's not something to judge. There are other things more worthy of discussion.

[Nicole Simon]

However I must admit (painfully, I add) that Mr. Grinch makes a good point: He believes Amanda is 'looking away' from the Truth. And I, for one, believe he is right...

Hello, Nicole. I'd get used to that sensation of "pain" around here. Irrefutable truth has that effect on the unwary.

 

Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, let me ask a question that no one else has bothered with. To wit: "What brand of Christian are YOU supposed to be?"

 

I ask simply because we get plenty of so-called "Christians" here, and we typically waste time and effort chasing our collective tails arguing pointlessly. If we don't know or are uncertain of what beliefs to which you adhere then we will inevitably ascribe to you our imaginations. Painting with a broad brushed stroke always leads to confusion and misrepresentation.

 

From your postings thus far, I presume you favor a biblical literalism and you support the doctrine of hell. What else? What denomination? Catholic? Protestant? Presbyterian? Baptist? Mennonite? Fundamentalist or Liberal? Evangelical or Charismatic? Help me out here. I don't want to be guilty of "judging" you.

 

I believe your satisfying my curiosity would go a long way towards eliminating much confusion on our part. (Plus we'll be able to discern if YOU are in fact a True Christian, or simply another "gnostic heretic" playing at Christianity.)

 

Thanks. Oh, and welcome to the Pirahna Tank.

 

P.S. - As for MY bona fides, I am an EX-Christian. Former Charismatic, then Fundy Baptist, then I toyed with being an Anabaptist. No formal schooling in biblical studies, yet I was an elder, preacher, teacher and evangelist. I am now a straight up atheist and anti-theist. I don't believe in Once saved, always saved, nor any other doctrine of the church. God is a fiction. Jesus is a fairy tale. The bible is a forgery founded upon the folklore of Judaism. That's MY bio in a nutshell. Cheerio.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi Mr. Grinch ... it's hard to take this seriously after typing out your sobriquet, or maybe that's no nickname, maybe you're the real deal. In that event I'm going to tiptoe around your questions. I don't want to answer them in haste and risk the unbridled wrath of Mr. Grinch. Is Mr. Grinch smiling? I hope so ... I'm sure he is. He's got a wonderfully dry sense of humor. I loved this ...

 

Any Gods?: None for me, thanks. I'm driving.

 

That's great stuff. I'm a little beat ... but I'll look over your questions and get back to you, okay? Have a great rest of the week and all that. Nicole