How Do Atheist Deal With Death?

[Kuroikaze]

Look up the term "burden of proof"

This is what i'm waiting for you to carry. Its your turn and so far i have seen nothing of substance except assertions.

 

didn't look it up I see, let me post the important part, since apparently I am supposed to do your homework for you.

 

The burden of proof is often associated with the Latin maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."

 

He who does not carry the burden of proof carries the benefit of assumption, meaning he needs no evidence to support his claim. Fulfilling the burden of proof effectively captures the benefit of assumption, passing the burden of proof off to another party.

 

 

notice the part I have boldfaced.

 

1. You have made a claim namely "God exists"

2. as an atheist I am skeptical of that claim (notice I am not making a claim myself but simply doubting the claim you are making)

3. the burden of proof lies on the one making the claim

4. therefore I need offer no proof until you fulfill your burden and offer substantial evidence of god's existence.

5. I find your "evidence" unpersuasive, indeed I am not even sure it qualifies as evidence in any real sense.

6. the only thing needed in this situation to show that my position is rational is show why your evidence is unpersuasive, which we have done.

 

7. ergo we are done unless you can offer more evidence.

 

 

check this link to learn more about burden of proof

http://www.nizkor.or...n-of-proof.html

 

or here

http://atheism.about.com/od/doesgodexist/a/burdenofproof.htm

[godlessgrrl]

Okay. I call Poe.

 

It would shatter my faith in the future of humanity to accept that any real live person can be as arrogant, self-centered, and deliberately ignorant as our latest visitor.

 

He's built an army of straw men, he refuses to listen, he's committed every logical fallacy in the book, and in the other thread he's freely admitted that he's a sociopath. He's not here to do anything but sell what we've already bought and returned as defective.

 

For my own sanity, I must call Poe. I'd go mad otherwise...

[Realist]

Now where is your counter evidence to this? Its going to take much more than just i don't agree with this.

I'm going to start using your argumentation technique.

 

Where is your evidence that I'm wrong? It's going to take much more than just some arbitrary and dubious holy book references to convert me.

i have already given you my evidence and all you have given me are your assertions that you disagree. You need to do more.

 

..... You have no evidence AT ALL! All you have is brainwashing! Get a life and get over it!!!!

[Vigile]

 

i have already given you my evidence and all you have given me are your assertions that you disagree. You need to do more.

 

uh....but your evidence is crap, our evidence is mostly one of explaining exactly why your evidence is not convincing, which we have done.

All your doing is tearing down my evidence and not giving me any counter evidence that is superior. I put my evidence on the table now its your turn.

 

Uh, you're the one making the claim here. Haven't you ever heard you can't prove a negative? That's usually the case, thus the burden of proof is on the claimer.

[NotBlinded]

 

"For the New Testament, Dr. G.R. Habermas

 

BINGO!

Yep...

[Guest amazed]

Part 1

Just because the gospel accounts were written down 30-40 years after the events does not mean there were not written records by those who heard him teach and do miracles. In fact the miracles had the effect of "cementing" their memories of what happened much like most of us can remeber what we were doing when we first heard-saw the 911 events.

And just because the authors were anonymous at first and later were named to each book based on tradition doesn't mean they actually were written by those authors or even eye-witnesses accounts.

For most of the books of the NT we have good traditions to rely on who wrote them.

 

And our recollections of the events do change. It's a fact. Even with extraordinary events the memory gets skewed and altered. I remember where I was, but if you would ask me which ones of the kids sitting in the sofa, I couldn't tell you.

I agree we may miss minor details but the major event itself we don't forget. I can still remember clearly what i was doing and who i talked to. This is significant for the gospel accounts. If people witnesses Jesus raising someone from the dead (which is extraordinary) most people who saw this happen would never forget it all their lives. This helped them to remember what he did and taught. Secondly, it would also not be unreasonable to think that some of them wrote down what he taught.

 

But those aspects apart, the Gospel stories to read more like a fiction story than real observed events.

Actually there is a lot of historical content in the gospels. Consider this:

"For the New Testament, Dr. G.R. Habermas points out that within 110 years of Christ's crucifixion, approximately eighteen non-Christian sources mention more than "one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom. These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity." [4] Sir William Ramsey, one of the greatest archeologists to ever live, demonstrated that Luke made no mistakes in references to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands.

 

Liberal scholars used to argue that a town named Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus, until archaeology of the last few decades confirmed its existence. The Gospel's portrayals of the temple, Pilate's court, Jesus' crown of thorns, and the mode of His execution have all also been confirmed. The list could go on and on.

 

The historical evidence clearly shows that the Bible is a reliable historical document."

 

Original sources, please, not ambiguous assertions.

 

What are these alleged "eighteen non-Christian sources"?

Here are some secular sources to look at:

• Thallus (c. 50-75ad)

• Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)

• Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan (c. 110)

• Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)

• Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)

• Galen (various writings, c.150)

• Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).

• Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)

• Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)

 

 

What are these "one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom"?

 

 

"These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity."

 

What details?

 

What miracles?

Things found in the gospel accounts.

[Guest amazed]

Part 2-- hope this comes out correct---

 

What claims to deity?

Gospel of John 1:1-3 and 10:30 to name a couple of the many passages that attest to his deity.

 

The credulous believe all sorts of things, from Bigfoot to alien abductions as mentioned, to the Madonna on a burnt bagel, but that does not make them miracles. Miracles are easily faked, especially when you have a credulous audience.

This is true. However the miracles of Christ were not fakes since he did many in public. Take Lazarus' rising from the dead in John 11. No doubt Lazarus was dead and Jesus raised him from the tomb with many people around.

 

Claims to deity are nothing special. Plenty people in psych wards do that every day.

True. Backing the claim up is another thing entirely and this is what the gospel accounts clearly show.

 

If there were any gods, one of them would god-up and prove themselves.

 

I am not waiting or basing my life on that.

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

[Guest amazed]

 

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

 

 

This being EX-Christian.net, I'd venture to say that most of us here have already "been there and done that".

That may be but i suspect some other things have happened in their lives. Not exactly sure what it is.

[par4dcourse]

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

 

 

This being EX-Christian.net, I'd venture to say that most of us here have already "been there and done that".

That may be but i suspect some other things have happened in their lives. Not exactly sure what it is.

 

We challenged the dogma and found it to be wanting in every respect.

 

I personally was a saved, santified, holy-ghost filled tongue-speaking pentacostal. Realize when I grew up that it was my own mind playing tricks. Maybe you'll learn to think for yourself someday and become more than a verse spouting sheep.

 

 

[Realist]

 

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

 

 

This being EX-Christian.net, I'd venture to say that most of us here have already "been there and done that".

That may be but i suspect some other things have happened in their lives. Not exactly sure what it is.

 

..... that is really VERY simple to answer! We finally realised the power that brainwashing had held over us ....many of us having been indoctrinated from birth! Until YOU get to the realisation of that I really do not see why you are wasting yours and our time on this forum!

[Guest amazed]

 

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

 

 

This being EX-Christian.net, I'd venture to say that most of us here have already "been there and done that".

That may be but i suspect some other things have happened in their lives. Not exactly sure what it is.

 

..... that is really VERY simple to answer! We finally realised the power that brainwashing had held over us ....many of us having been indoctrinated from birth! Until YOU get to the realisation of that I really do not see why you are wasting yours and our time on this forum!

What i think part of the problem is that the church as a whole has done a lousy job of teaching its people about the faith and helping them work out their problems and questions. I also think it has not done a good job of engaging the culture on many of the false ideas it promotes.

[Guest amazed]

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

 

 

This being EX-Christian.net, I'd venture to say that most of us here have already "been there and done that".

That may be but i suspect some other things have happened in their lives. Not exactly sure what it is.

 

We challenged the dogma and found it to be wanting in every respect.

How did you challenge it? What specifically did you find it wanting and what did you replace it with?

 

I personally was a saved, santified, holy-ghost filled tongue-speaking pentacostal. Realize when I grew up that it was my own mind playing tricks. Maybe you'll learn to think for yourself someday and become more than a verse spouting sheep.

I try not to quote many verses here. The christian faith is far richer and deeper than most people think. If it wasn't it would not have thrived for 2000 years. Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

[bdp]

Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

 

Which means nothing.

[Realist]

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

 

 

This being EX-Christian.net, I'd venture to say that most of us here have already "been there and done that".

That may be but i suspect some other things have happened in their lives. Not exactly sure what it is.

 

We challenged the dogma and found it to be wanting in every respect.

How did you challenge it? What specifically did you find it wanting and what did you replace it with?

 

I personally was a saved, santified, holy-ghost filled tongue-speaking pentacostal. Realize when I grew up that it was my own mind playing tricks. Maybe you'll learn to think for yourself someday and become more than a verse spouting sheep.

I try not to quote many verses here. The christian faith is far richer and deeper than most people think. If it wasn't it would not have thrived for 2000 years. Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

 

..... take the time to read this article. I think it will explain to you VERY well why the christian belief system has thrived for the last 2000 years!

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bad_beliefs_dont_die/

[Shyone]

Here are some secular sources to look at:

• Thallus (c. 50-75ad)

• Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)

• Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan (c. 110)

• Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)

• Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)

• Galen (various writings, c.150)

• Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).

• Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)

• Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)

 

 

What are these "one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom"?

 

 

"These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity."

 

What details?

 

What miracles?

Things found in the gospel accounts.

The Gospel holds no special place for me since it is contradictory and contains deliberate falsehoods intended to slickly give people what they wanted. The virgin birth is the biggest hoax of the past 2,000 years. Virgin, indeed. Ha!

 

But I am interested in what the other sources have to say, and I plan to look at least one of them up. Writings that come after the gospels are rather pointless since reporting that some sect claims this or that means nothing more than that the gospels had already been written - which is not in dispute. Clearly they were written sometime.

 

I'm sure you've read the scholarly debate about Tacitus and Suetonius that demonstrates that these colleagues shared data, but the writings suggest forgery. Josephus, in particular, is a blatant forgery.

 

I don't hold out much hope, but I don't recall having read about Thallus. I'll try to find his writings, but since that is about the only source that I am unfamiliar with (or care about since it was apparently written about the time of the gospels) I would appreciate a bit of information about what specifically I am supposed to be looking for.

[NotBlinded]

Part 2-- hope this comes out correct---

 

What claims to deity?

Gospel of John 1:1-3 and 10:30 to name a couple of the many passages that attest to his deity.

 

The credulous believe all sorts of things, from Bigfoot to alien abductions as mentioned, to the Madonna on a burnt bagel, but that does not make them miracles. Miracles are easily faked, especially when you have a credulous audience.

This is true. However the miracles of Christ were not fakes since he did many in public. Take Lazarus' rising from the dead in John 11. No doubt Lazarus was dead and Jesus raised him from the tomb with many people around.

 

Claims to deity are nothing special. Plenty people in psych wards do that every day.

True. Backing the claim up is another thing entirely and this is what the gospel accounts clearly show.

 

If there were any gods, one of them would god-up and prove themselves.

 

I am not waiting or basing my life on that.

You have it in the New Testament. Only Christ is worth basing your life on.

2+2=5

[ContraBardus]

 

I don't hold out much hope, but I don't recall having read about Thallus. I'll try to find his writings, but since that is about the only source that I am unfamiliar with (or care about since it was apparently written about the time of the gospels) I would appreciate a bit of information about what specifically I am supposed to be looking for.

 

This explains it and should contain all the information you'd need. You were right to not hold hope for it.

 

[it's quite long.]

 

From: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html

 

Thallus: an Analysis (1999)

Richard Carrier

 

 

 

This is a preliminary essay, outlining some important facts about Thallus, a pagan chronologer of unknown date who is occasionally mentioned in the works of Christian apologists, modern and ancient, as a 1st century pagan witness to the gospel tradition of a "darkness" at the death of Christ: see Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44; and Matthew 27:51-53, whose account includes an earthquake, split rocks, and zombies; John makes no mention of any such events, nor does Paul or any other New Testament author.

 

Such a story has obvious mythic overtones and can easily be doubted. That a solar eclipse should mark the death of a king was common lore among Greeks and other Mediterranean peoples (Herodotus 7.37, Plutarch Pelopidas 31.3 and Aemilius Paulus 17.7-11, Dio Cassius 55.29.3, John Lydus De Ostentis 70.a), and that such events corresponded with earthquakes was also a scientific superstition (Aristotle Meteorology 367.b.2, Pliny Natural History 2.195, Virgil Georgics 2.47.478-80). It was also typical to assimilate eclipses to major historic events, even when they did not originally correspond, or to invent eclipses for this purpose (Préaux claims to have counted 200 examples in extant literature; Boeuffle and Newton have also remarked on this tendency). The gospel stories also make a solar eclipse impossible: the crucifixion passover happened during a full moon, and the darkness supposedly lasted three hours (indeed, Julius Africanus claimed it covered the whole world). Such an impossible event would not fail to be recorded in the works of Seneca, Pliny, Josephus or other historians, yet it is not mentioned anywhere else outside of Christian rhetoric, so we can probably dismiss the idea of this being a real event.

 

Nevertheless, Thallus is cited at least as a witness to the early date of the gospel story of the darkness, if not to the factuality of the darkness itself. But the facts surrounding Thallus are all too often incorrect, or asserted with unjustified boldness, calling for a proper historical treatment of the facts. Being an unfinished work, this essay is brief and does not cite sources in detail--most of the relevant sources are already cited in my translation of two other non-English commentaries on Thallus: for those who can stomach the detailed scholarly text, see Jacoby. A bibliography of all the works I consulted (but not including those mentioned by Jacoby or Müller) is collected at the end of this essay. In the future, a completed version of this essay with full references will be published, but until then anyone desiring to know more about the sources should write to me directly (see my bio for contact information).

 

SNIP

 

So it's just yet another fallacious argument. Just another invalid claim based solely on misinformation and interpolation. Or another second century after the fact addition, which proves nothing.

 

All of his examples of 'secularist' writings that 'prove' God or Jesus are invalid.

[Guest amazed]

Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

 

Which means nothing.

What it means is that some very intelligent people are persuaded by the claims of Christ. Secondly, Christianity has produced some of the finest minds in the history of the world.

[bdp]

Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

 

Which means nothing.

What it means is that some very intelligent people are persuaded by the claims of Christ. Secondly, Christianity has produced some of the finest minds in the history of the world.

 

Many very intelligent people AREN'T persuaded. It means nothing. And I would rather argue that some of the finest minds have embraced Christianity, not that it produced them.

[Guest amazed]

 

I don't hold out much hope, but I don't recall having read about Thallus. I'll try to find his writings, but since that is about the only source that I am unfamiliar with (or care about since it was apparently written about the time of the gospels) I would appreciate a bit of information about what specifically I am supposed to be looking for.

 

This explains it and should contain all the information you'd need. You were right to not hold hope for it.

 

[it's quite long.]

 

From: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html

SNIP

 

I think you hold the record for the longest quote. Keep in mind that the primary source documents for the deity of Christ clearly demonstrate he was God. We should not expect secular records of the time to try to show this.

[Guest amazed]

Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

 

Which means nothing.

What it means is that some very intelligent people are persuaded by the claims of Christ. Secondly, Christianity has produced some of the finest minds in the history of the world.

 

Many very intelligent people AREN'T persuaded. It means nothing. And I would rather argue that some of the finest minds have embraced Christianity, not that it produced them.

Some of the great minds that have embraced Christianity are Augustine, Aquinas and C S Lewis. There writings are still impacting the world for good.

[bdp]

Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

 

Which means nothing.

What it means is that some very intelligent people are persuaded by the claims of Christ. Secondly, Christianity has produced some of the finest minds in the history of the world.

 

Many very intelligent people AREN'T persuaded. It means nothing. And I would rather argue that some of the finest minds have embraced Christianity, not that it produced them.

Some of the great minds that have embraced Christianity are Augustine, Aquinas and C S Lewis. There writings are still impacting the world for good.

 

C.S. Lewis had a very fine mind before he embraced Christianity, and his writings aren't persuasive to many minds equally great to his own. This is not any kind of proof for a sentient deity.

[Guest amazed]

Many incredibly intelligent people are Christians.

 

Which means nothing.

What it means is that some very intelligent people are persuaded by the claims of Christ. Secondly, Christianity has produced some of the finest minds in the history of the world.

 

Many very intelligent people AREN'T persuaded. It means nothing. And I would rather argue that some of the finest minds have embraced Christianity, not that it produced them.

Some of the great minds that have embraced Christianity are Augustine, Aquinas and C S Lewis. There writings are still impacting the world for good.

 

C.S. Lewis had a very fine mind before he embraced Christianity, and his writings aren't persuasive to many minds equally great to his own. This is not any kind of proof for a sentient deity.

I agree that its not proof for a sentient deity but i think it demonstates that Christianity has much to offer the mind and great minds are drawn to it.

[Guest amazed]

Here are some secular sources to look at:

• Thallus (c. 50-75ad)

• Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)

• Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan (c. 110)

• Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)

• Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)

• Galen (various writings, c.150)

• Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).

• Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)

• Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)

 

 

What are these "one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom"?

 

 

"These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity."

 

What details?

 

What miracles?

Things found in the gospel accounts.

The Gospel holds no special place for me since it is contradictory and contains deliberate falsehoods intended to slickly give people what they wanted. The virgin birth is the biggest hoax of the past 2,000 years. Virgin, indeed. Ha!

Not necessarily. If God who created universe then its no problem for him to cause the virgin birth. Can you give a couple of examples of the deliberate falsehoods?

 

But I am interested in what the other sources have to say, and I plan to look at least one of them up. Writings that come after the gospels are rather pointless since reporting that some sect claims this or that means nothing more than that the gospels had already been written - which is not in dispute. Clearly they were written sometime.

 

I'm sure you've read the scholarly debate about Tacitus and Suetonius that demonstrates that these colleagues shared data, but the writings suggest forgery. Josephus, in particular, is a blatant forgery.

 

I don't hold out much hope, but I don't recall having read about Thallus. I'll try to find his writings, but since that is about the only source that I am unfamiliar with (or care about since it was apparently written about the time of the gospels) I would appreciate a bit of information about what specifically I am supposed to be looking for.

I'm not that familar with what you write here.

[Shyone]

Some of the great minds that have embraced Christianity are Augustine, Aquinas and C S Lewis. There writings are still impacting the world for good.

I have a very different perspective on this. I see some very fine minds whose lives were wasted on false hope and myth. The same applies to people throughout history who have been seduced by religion from ancient times to the present.

 

I have read the writings of Aquinas in detail, and also many from Augustine (e.g. City of God). They are not convincing, but they do show brilliance in some respects. Beginning with a faulty premise, these brilliant men have wandered down fantasy lane and found what they wanted to find.

 

I am convinced that Aquinas did not have some beatific experience towards the end of his life. I think he realized that all of his work was wasted, and he wanted to quit. He was like MarJoe or Dan Barker, losing faith in faith. His sadness reflects the waste of his life and energies.

 

In December, 1273, while conducting mass, he suddenly stopped. He never returned to writing the Summa Theologiae despite his assistant (Reginald of Piperno) imploring him to continue. "Reginald, I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me,” was his reply.

 

I, too, feel sadness for these men. I've been there, and I know what it feels like. Moreover, to admit openly any reason beyond the vague statement above would have condemned him to imprisonment for the lat 4 months of his life if not torture.