How Do Atheist Deal With Death?

[centauri]

Keep in mind that the primary source documents for the deity of Christ clearly demonstrate he was God.

The NT also clearly demonstrates that he was not God.

The Hebrew scriptures do not support God turning himself into a man and then changing his plan for salvation by employing a human sacrifice.

You also keep using the word "christ" and applying it to Jesus.

However, you have not established that Jesus earned such a title, specifically that of a king messiah.

What are the qualifications and job requirements for an expected king messiah according to the Hebrew scriptures?

[Shyone]

 

I'm sure you've read the scholarly debate about Tacitus and Suetonius that demonstrates that these colleagues shared data, but the writings suggest forgery. Josephus, in particular, is a blatant forgery.

 

I don't hold out much hope, but I don't recall having read about Thallus. I'll try to find his writings, but since that is about the only source that I am unfamiliar with (or care about since it was apparently written about the time of the gospels) I would appreciate a bit of information about what specifically I am supposed to be looking for.

I'm not that familar with what you write here.

If you mean the Tacitus and Suetonius controversy, read this thread.

 

If you mean Josephus Forgery, Read this.

 

If you mean what I asked about Thallus, I was wondering what he wrote about that might relate to Jesus (as opposed to all of the other things he may have written about). Someone else directed me to this information.

[Max]

I find it much easier to deal with death as an atheist as I did as a xtian. Now, I believe the dead just cease to exist. It's sad to lose someone you love, but you can rest assured that they are not suffering.

 

As a xtian, I was constantly tormented by the prospect that many fine people would suffer for all of eternity. I cried many nights because this was such a painful prospect.

What makes you think they cease to exist? How do you know they are not suffering?

How do you know that they are?

 

Based on everything we know about life and the evolution thereof, there is no reason to assume that anything about a person lasts after the body is dead. Our conscienceness is the work of our brains; when the brain stops, the person is gone. There is no evidence to support any notion of something that persists beyond the physical body. The notion of a lasting soul is simply our survival instinct refusing to accept an absolute end.

[Max]

I find it much easier to deal with death as an atheist as I did as a xtian. Now, I believe the dead just cease to exist. It's sad to lose someone you love, but you can rest assured that they are not suffering.

 

As a xtian, I was constantly tormented by the prospect that many fine people would suffer for all of eternity. I cried many nights because this was such a painful prospect.

What makes you think they cease to exist? How do you know they are not suffering?

 

The better question is how do you KNOW they ARE?

 

All the evidence I can gather suggests that there is no life after death. NDE's are not consistent or well documented, and do not count as reliable evidence in my opinion, for the same reason that Bigfoot sightings and alien abductions do not count.

 

You make a claim, unless you can provide evidence of said claim then I am skeptical.

There are thousands of cases of near death expierences and many cannot be easily dismissed as some kind of function of the brain. Something immaterial of a person survives in some manner.

As for knowing the state of someone who has died i don't. I have a number of reasons why i believe there is life after death.

1- Near death expierences

2- The Scriptures say there is

3-i know we are more than meat machines i.e. we are more than our physical bodies. The concept that we have a personal identity that is not directly related to our physical bodies.

4- the mind- not to be confused with the brain.

 

 

1. So-called "near death experiences" are just the natural reaction of the oxygen-starved brain. The prove nothing other than you imagine bright light when your visual cortex is failing.

2. In case you haven't noticed, we don't buy into the notion that the scriptures contain anything true or useful. Read Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman.

3. You provide no evidence to support this point.

4. ditto.

[Snakefoot]

In fact there is better evidence for the existence of Christ than there is for any other figure in the ancient world.

 

Absolute horseshit.

 

Roman coins bearing the likenesses of the Caesars still exist.

 

Cities still exist named (in their time) for ancient leaders. Constantinople, anyone?

 

There is more evidence for Davey Jones than for Jeebus.

 

Lying for Jeebus?

[Shyone]

 

Based on everything we know about life and the evolution thereof, there is no reason to assume that anything about a person lasts after the body is dead. Our conscienceness is the work of our brains; when the brain stops, the person is gone. There is no evidence to support any notion of something that persists beyond the physical body. The notion of a lasting soul is simply our survival instinct refusing to accept an absolute end.

I was reminded of a chain of logic that influenced me in that direction.

 

Animals don't go to heaven, they just die and cease to exist.

We are animals.

We don't go to heaven. We just die and cease to exist.

 

That is simplistic, but the elaborate form includes the process of evolution. When did man become man? What stage of evolution is claimed to have been the first "blessed" with a soul? How was that decided? The whole scheme of heaven begins to crumble when you realize that we are another step on the evolutionary ladder - which does not necessarily have an upwards direction, although "better survival" implies some advantage (such as intelligence).

 

Anyone else reminded of 2001: A Space Odessey?

[Snakefoot]

 

Based on everything we know about life and the evolution thereof, there is no reason to assume that anything about a person lasts after the body is dead. Our conscienceness is the work of our brains; when the brain stops, the person is gone. There is no evidence to support any notion of something that persists beyond the physical body. The notion of a lasting soul is simply our survival instinct refusing to accept an absolute end.

I was reminded of a chain of logic that influenced me in that direction.

 

Animals don't go to heaven, they just die and cease to exist.

We are animals.

We don't go to heaven. We just die and cease to exist.

 

That is simplistic, but the elaborate form includes the process of evolution. When did man become man? What stage of evolution is claimed to have been the first "blessed" with a soul? How was that decided? The whole scheme of heaven begins to crumble when you realize that we are another step on the evolutionary ladder - which does not necessarily have an upwards direction, although "better survival" implies some advantage (such as intelligence).

 

Anyone else reminded of 2001: A Space Odessey?

 

I call plagiarism. I posted that same thought at least twice (maybe three times) in another thread.

 

On the other other hand, maybe it's one of those "great minds" things.

[Shyone]

 

Based on everything we know about life and the evolution thereof, there is no reason to assume that anything about a person lasts after the body is dead. Our conscienceness is the work of our brains; when the brain stops, the person is gone. There is no evidence to support any notion of something that persists beyond the physical body. The notion of a lasting soul is simply our survival instinct refusing to accept an absolute end.

I was reminded of a chain of logic that influenced me in that direction.

 

Animals don't go to heaven, they just die and cease to exist.

We are animals.

We don't go to heaven. We just die and cease to exist.

 

That is simplistic, but the elaborate form includes the process of evolution. When did man become man? What stage of evolution is claimed to have been the first "blessed" with a soul? How was that decided? The whole scheme of heaven begins to crumble when you realize that we are another step on the evolutionary ladder - which does not necessarily have an upwards direction, although "better survival" implies some advantage (such as intelligence).

 

Anyone else reminded of 2001: A Space Odessey?

 

I call plagiarism. I posted that same thought at least twice (maybe three times) in another thread.

 

On the other other hand, maybe it's one of those "great minds" things.

Did you post the thread about which species of man was the first to have a soul? I confess; that thread was in my mind when I wrote the paragraph above.

 

So, I think it's a little bit of both (to quote Forest Gump - I may as well start giving credit where credit is due).

[bdp]

[Snakefoot]

 

 

Anyone else reminded of 2001: A Space Odessey?

 

I call plagiarism. I posted that same thought at least twice (maybe three times) in another thread.

 

On the other other hand, maybe it's one of those "great minds" things.

Did you post the thread about which species of man was the first to have a soul? I confess; that thread was in my mind when I wrote the paragraph above.

 

So, I think it's a little bit of both (to quote Forest Gump - I may as well start giving credit where credit is due).

 

If we are baring our breasts, as it were, I could well have been inspired by the "first to have a soul" thread, although I did not start it or post in it to the best of my recollection (and am too lazy to look). A Freudian thing, perhaps.

 

Whatever the case, my taunt was in jest.

[Shyone]

 

 

Anyone else reminded of 2001: A Space Odessey?

 

I call plagiarism. I posted that same thought at least twice (maybe three times) in another thread.

 

On the other other hand, maybe it's one of those "great minds" things.

Did you post the thread about which species of man was the first to have a soul? I confess; that thread was in my mind when I wrote the paragraph above.

 

So, I think it's a little bit of both (to quote Forest Gump - I may as well start giving credit where credit is due).

 

If we are baring our breasts, as it were, I could well have been inspired by the "first to have a soul" thread, although I did not start it or post in it to the best of my recollection (and am too lazy to look). A Freudian thing, perhaps.

 

Whatever the case, my taunt was in jest.

Oh, you meant the 2001 thing! I probably read that, but I wrote the sentence because I had a mental picture of the apes who were endowed with intelligence killing other apes. Or humans. Whatever.

 

So many ideas swirling, and we are become one mind. Ommmmmmmmm.

[Shyone]

A beautiful anthem.

[Snakefoot]

Oh, you meant the 2001 thing! I probably read that, but I wrote the sentence because I had a mental picture of the apes who were endowed with intelligence killing other apes. Or humans. Whatever.

 

So many ideas swirling, and we are become one mind. Ommmmmmmmm.

 

That (the 2001 mention) was a good pairing with human evolutionary history. Astute observation on your part.

 

I posted about 2001: ASO in a thread somewhere on the question of why gawd did not come up with a better way of communicating with Man, one not hampered by technological advances but enhanced by them. I suggested that if gawd were as smart as Stanley Kubrick, he would have employed something like the series of monoliths in 2001: ASO, "a trail of breadcrumbs leading to gawd."

 

My daughter (MD) and her husband (double PhD) when dating would mark parallel, independent thoughts with:

 

Great minds...

 

...like ours.

[Casey]

Oh the Devil take this topic! How do atheists deal with death? In exactly the same way as anyone else deals with it. Death is dealt with in a few customary ways. The first is to dig a hole six feet long, three feet wide and six feet deep. That's 108 cubic feet of earth if you haven't yet worked it out. Most people in the Western world these days would get someone else to dig that for them, but if you're poor, young and fit, no reason you couldn't do it yourself. Get a couple of mates to help you and make sure you buy at least a keg of beer for afterwards, eh? Only takes a crowbar and a long-handled shovel, and the will to use them.

 

Other than that you'll have to build a large fire, won't you? Or else find some large and deep body of water. Just make sure you enclose the carcass or, if you can't be bothered to build a coffin or can't afford one, slash the belly open before you weight it down. Now if you can't be bothered to do these things, bribe someone who owns a piggery and throw the carcass in there. Pigs being omnivores there will soon be nothing left! Of course, if there's a war on or some such you mightn't even be able to do these things so then you or someone else will just have to live with the stink. Still, as an ex Prime Minister of my country once said, "Life wasn't meant to be easy". (He was quoting a line from one of George Bernard Shaw's plays as it happened, proving once more that politicians and christians mostly have nothing original to say!)

 

On a more serious note, before I renounced any belief in Christ insanity I used to be terrified of Death, Hell fire and all the rest of it. Now, I am of a mind that I will just have to take what I get when I come to it. It doesn't worry me any more, and you can take that as you like. The way I see it is this, if I have done everything I can within reason to make the little corner of the world I have any say in just a wee bit better for my having lived in it, what more could I have done?

Casey

[Realist]

Oh the Devil take this topic! How do atheists deal with death? In exactly the same way as anyone else deals with it. Death is dealt with in a few customary ways. The first is to dig a hole six feet long, three feet wide and six feet deep. That's 108 cubic feet of earth if you haven't yet worked it out. Most people in the Western world these days would get someone else to dig that for them, but if you're poor, young and fit, no reason you couldn't do it yourself. Get a couple of mates to help you and make sure you buy at least a keg of beer for afterwards, eh? Only takes a crowbar and a long-handled shovel, and the will to use them.

 

Other than that you'll have to build a large fire, won't you? Or else find some large and deep body of water. Just make sure you enclose the carcass or, if you can't be bothered to build a coffin or can't afford one, slash the belly open before you weight it down. Now if you can't be bothered to do these things, bribe someone who owns a piggery and throw the carcass in there. Pigs being omnivores there will soon be nothing left! Of course, if there's a war on or some such you mightn't even be able to do these things so then you or someone else will just have to live with the stink. Still, as an ex Prime Minister of my country once said, "Life wasn't meant to be easy". (He was quoting a line from one of George Bernard Shaw's plays as it happened, proving once more that politicians and christians mostly have nothing original to say!)

 

On a more serious note, before I renounced any belief in Christ insanity I used to be terrified of Death, Hell fire and all the rest of it. Now, I am of a mind that I will just have to take what I get when I come to it. It doesn't worry me any more, and you can take that as you like. The way I see it is this, if I have done everything I can within reason to make the little corner of the world I have any say in just a wee bit better for my having lived in it, what more could I have done?

Casey

 

.... hey Casey .... I just love that!!!

 

Isn't it just amazing the self importantance human beings have? This is just SO emphasized by religious beliefs!

 

Kick a human being out of a 747 mid Pacific Ocean or leave one stranded in the middle of the Sahara without water and see how self important they REALLY are then! We are nothing more than a dog turd on the pavement of life! The sooner we realise that the sooner we can live what precious little time we really do have!

[Guest amazed]

In fact there is better evidence for the existence of Christ than there is for any other figure in the ancient world.

 

Absolute horseshit.

 

Roman coins bearing the likenesses of the Caesars still exist.

 

Cities still exist named (in their time) for ancient leaders. Constantinople, anyone?

 

There is more evidence for Davey Jones than for Jeebus.

 

Lying for Jeebus?

I didn't say there was no evidence for other ancient figures but that we have more evidence and better evidence for any figure of ancient history.

[Guest amazed]

I find it much easier to deal with death as an atheist as I did as a xtian. Now, I believe the dead just cease to exist. It's sad to lose someone you love, but you can rest assured that they are not suffering.

 

As a xtian, I was constantly tormented by the prospect that many fine people would suffer for all of eternity. I cried many nights because this was such a painful prospect.

What makes you think they cease to exist? How do you know they are not suffering?

 

The better question is how do you KNOW they ARE?

 

All the evidence I can gather suggests that there is no life after death. NDE's are not consistent or well documented, and do not count as reliable evidence in my opinion, for the same reason that Bigfoot sightings and alien abductions do not count.

 

You make a claim, unless you can provide evidence of said claim then I am skeptical.

There are thousands of cases of near death expierences and many cannot be easily dismissed as some kind of function of the brain. Something immaterial of a person survives in some manner.

As for knowing the state of someone who has died i don't. I have a number of reasons why i believe there is life after death.

1- Near death expierences

2- The Scriptures say there is

3-i know we are more than meat machines i.e. we are more than our physical bodies. The concept that we have a personal identity that is not directly related to our physical bodies.

4- the mind- not to be confused with the brain.

 

 

1. So-called "near death experiences" are just the natural reaction of the oxygen-starved brain. The prove nothing other than you imagine bright light when your visual cortex is failing.

2. In case you haven't noticed, we don't buy into the notion that the scriptures contain anything true or useful. Read Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman.

3. You provide no evidence to support this point.

4. ditto.

I've dealt with the evidence for near death experiences before but it bears repeating. Not all expierences cannot be explained by brain activity since there are a number of cases "seeing" things and recounting things miles away. This cannot be explained away via the brain.

[Snakefoot]

In fact there is better evidence for the existence of Christ than there is for any other figure in the ancient world.

 

Absolute horseshit.

 

Roman coins bearing the likenesses of the Caesars still exist.

 

Cities still exist named (in their time) for ancient leaders. Constantinople, anyone?

 

There is more evidence for Davey Jones than for Jeebus.

 

Lying for Jeebus?

I didn't say there was no evidence for other ancient figures but that we have more evidence and better evidence for any figure of ancient history.

 

I again call horseshit.

 

What evidence do you have besides the holey babble (which is no evidence at all)?

 

Coins with Jeebus on them?

 

Cities named for him in his time?

 

His personal writings on papyrus or in stone?

 

Any of his belongings? (Holy Grail, anyone?)

 

An independent biography (again, holey babble does not count)?

 

Even a casual mention in the writings of someone who actually knew him?

 

I know the answer: You do not have jack shit, let alone "better evidence for the existence of Christ than there is for any other figure in the ancient world."

[Shyone]

I didn't say there was no evidence for other ancient figures but that we have more evidence and better evidence for any figure of ancient history.

That shows ignorance of the ancient world.

 

First, you refer mainly to that book stuck on the end of your nose, the bible. Other sources mentioning Jesus are either 1) late, 2) forged or 3) referring to the religion and not the person. Hell, we don't even have a body!

 

Second, there is a large body of literature you are ignoring describing many personages known throughout the ancient world and still known today. I'll list a few examples.

 

Odysseus - The protagonist of the Odyssey. Odysseus fought among the other Greek heroes at Troy and now struggles to return to his kingdom in Ithaca. Odysseus is the husband of Queen Penelope and the father of Prince Telemachus. Though a strong and courageous warrior, he is most renowned for his cunning. He is a favorite of the goddess Athena, who often sends him divine aid, but a bitter enemy of Poseidon, who frustrates his journey at every turn.

 

Telemachus - Odysseus’s son. An infant when Odysseus left for Troy, Telemachus is about twenty at the beginning of the story. He is a natural obstacle to the suitors desperately courting his mother, but despite his courage and good heart, he initially lacks the poise and confidence to oppose them. His maturation, especially during his trip to Pylos and Sparta in Books 3 and 4, provides a subplot to the epic. Athena often assists him.

 

Penelope - Wife of Odysseus and mother of Telemachus. Penelope spends her days in the palace pining for the husband who left for Troy twenty years earlier and never returned. Homer portrays her as sometimes flighty and excitable but also clever and steadfastly true to her husband.

 

Athena - Daughter of Zeus and goddess of wisdom, purposeful battle, and the womanly arts. Athena assists Odysseus and Telemachus with divine powers throughout the epic, and she speaks up for them in the councils of the gods on Mount Olympus. She often appears in disguise as Mentor, an old friend of Odysseus.

 

Antinous - The most arrogant of Penelope’s suitors. Antinous leads the campaign to have Telemachus killed. Unlike the other suitors, he is never portrayed sympathetically, and he is the first to die when Odysseus returns.

 

Eurymachus - A manipulative, deceitful suitor. Eurymachus’s charisma and duplicity allow him to exert some influence over the other suitors.

 

Amphinomus - Among the dozens of suitors, the only decent man seeking Penelope’s hand in marriage. Amphinomus sometimes speaks up for Odysseus and Telemachus, but he is killed like the rest of the suitors in the final fight.

 

Eumaeus - The loyal shepherd who, along with the cowherd Philoetius, helps Odysseus reclaim his throne after his return to Ithaca. Even though he does not know that the vagabond who appears at his hut is Odysseus, Eumaeus gives the man food and shelter.

 

Eurycleia - The aged and loyal servant who nursed Odysseus and Telemachus when they were babies. Eurycleia is well informed about palace intrigues and serves as confidante to her masters. She keeps Telemachus’s journey secret from

 

Penelope, and she later keeps Odysseus’s identity a secret after she recognizes a scar on his leg.

 

Melanthius - The brother of Melantho. Melanthius is a treacherous and opportunistic goatherd who supports the suitors, especially Eurymachus, and abuses the beggar who appears in Odysseus’s palace, not realizing that the man is Odysseus himself.

 

Melantho - Sister of Melanthius and maidservant in Odysseus’s palace. Like her brother, Melantho abuses the beggar in the palace, not knowing that the man is Odysseus. She is having an affair with Eurymachus.

 

Calypso - The beautiful nymph who falls in love with Odysseus when he lands on her island-home of Ogygia. Calypso holds him prisoner there for seven years until Hermes, the messenger god, persuades her to let him go.

 

Polyphemus - One of the Cyclopes (uncivilized one-eyed giants) whose island Odysseus comes to soon after leaving Troy. Polyphemus imprisons Odysseus and his crew and tries to eat them, but Odysseus blinds him through a clever ruse and manages to escape. In doing so, however, Odysseus angers Polyphemus’s father, Poseidon.

 

Circe - The beautiful witch-goddess who transforms Odysseus’s crew into swine when he lands on her island. With Hermes’ help, Odysseus resists Circe’s powers and then becomes her lover, living in luxury at her side for a year.

 

Laertes - Odysseus’s aging father, who resides on a farm in Ithaca. In despair and physical decline, Laertes regains his spirit when Odysseus returns and eventually kills Antinous’s father.

 

Tiresias - A Theban prophet who inhabits the underworld. Tiresias meets Odysseus when Odysseus journeys to the underworld in Book 11. He shows Odysseus how to get back to Ithaca and allows Odysseus to communicate with the other souls in Hades.

 

Nestor - King of Pylos and a former warrior in the Trojan War. Like Odysseus, Nestor is known as a clever speaker. Telemachus visits him in Book 3 to ask about his father, but Nestor knows little of Odysseus’s whereabouts.

 

Menelaus - King of Sparta, brother of Agamemnon, and husband of Helen, he helped lead the Greeks in the Trojan War. He offers Telemachus assistance in his quest to find Odysseus when Telemachus visits him in Book 4.

 

Helen - Wife of Menelaus and queen of Sparta. Helen’s abduction from Sparta by the Trojans sparked the Trojan War. Her beauty is without parallel, but she is criticized for giving in to her Trojan captors and thereby costing many Greek men their lives. She offers Telemachus assistance in his quest to find his father.

 

Agamemnon - Former king of Mycenae, brother of Menelaus, and commander of the Achaean forces at Troy. Odysseus encounters Agamemnon’s spirit in Hades. Agamemnon was murdered by his wife, Clytemnestra, and her lover, Aegisthus, upon his return from the war. He was later avenged by his son Orestes. Their story is constantly repeated in the Odyssey to offer an inverted image of the fortunes of Odysseus and Telemachus.

 

Nausicaa - The beautiful daughter of King Alcinous and Queen Arete of the Phaeacians. Nausicaa discovers Odysseus on the beach at Scheria and, out of budding affection for him, ensures his warm reception at her parents’ palace.

 

Alcinous - King of the Phaeacians, who offers Odysseus hospitality in his island kingdom of Scheria. Alcinous hears the story of Odysseus’s wanderings and provides him with safe passage back to Ithaca.

 

Arete - Queen of the Phaeacians, wife of Alcinous, and mother of Nausicaa. Arete is intelligent and influential. Nausicaa tells Odysseus to make his appeal for assistance to Arete.

 

There are so many more.

[Snakefoot]

I've dealt with the evidence for near death experiences before but it bears repeating. Not all expierences cannot be explained by brain activity since there are a number of cases "seeing" things and recounting things miles away. This cannot be explained away via the brain.

 

The drug Ketamine (used legitimately as an adjunct in general anesthesia, and illegitimately as an hallucinogen) can produce the same hallucinatory and sensory symptoms reported by people who have experienced an NDE. So, cultures that use hallucinogens in worship really are finding gawd, eh?

 

An NDE is no more evidence for life after death than is a good high.

 

As for "seeing" and "recounting things miles away," this is nothing more than coincidence or the equivalent of a parlor trick used by palm readers and "mediums" and often demonstrated by James Randi to debunk supernatural horseshit. If you know enough about a person or persons, their habits and routines, you can easily predict where they will be and what will be doing at or near a certain time or under certain circumstances. Further, that person's credulity and emotions will lead them to frank the predictor's observations as legitimate. This is demonstrable and provable. Check out James Randi some time. You might learn a great deal about human credulity and gullibility.

 

Anecdotal, non-repeatable events are not evidence. Events repeatable on demand (e.g. a Ketamine-induced NDE phenomenon) are evidence--that NDE "gawd experiences" are nothing but a high induced by drugs or brain hypoxia.

[Guest amazed]

I didn't say there was no evidence for other ancient figures but that we have more evidence and better evidence for any figure of ancient history.

That shows ignorance of the ancient world.

 

First, you refer mainly to that book stuck on the end of your nose, the bible. Other sources mentioning Jesus are either 1) late, 2) forged or 3) referring to the religion and not the person. Hell, we don't even have a body!

 

Second, there is a large body of literature you are ignoring describing many personages known throughout the ancient world and still known today. I'll list a few examples.

 

Odysseus - The protagonist of the Odyssey. Odysseus fought among the other Greek heroes at Troy and now struggles to return to his kingdom in Ithaca. Odysseus is the husband of Queen Penelope and the father of Prince Telemachus. Though a strong and courageous warrior, he is most renowned for his cunning. He is a favorite of the goddess Athena, who often sends him divine aid, but a bitter enemy of Poseidon, who frustrates his journey at every turn.

 

Telemachus - Odysseus’s son. An infant when Odysseus left for Troy, Telemachus is about twenty at the beginning of the story. He is a natural obstacle to the suitors desperately courting his mother, but despite his courage and good heart, he initially lacks the poise and confidence to oppose them. His maturation, especially during his trip to Pylos and Sparta in Books 3 and 4, provides a subplot to the epic. Athena often assists him.

 

Penelope - Wife of Odysseus and mother of Telemachus. Penelope spends her days in the palace pining for the husband who left for Troy twenty years earlier and never returned. Homer portrays her as sometimes flighty and excitable but also clever and steadfastly true to her husband.

 

Athena - Daughter of Zeus and goddess of wisdom, purposeful battle, and the womanly arts. Athena assists Odysseus and Telemachus with divine powers throughout the epic, and she speaks up for them in the councils of the gods on Mount Olympus. She often appears in disguise as Mentor, an old friend of Odysseus.

 

Antinous - The most arrogant of Penelope’s suitors. Antinous leads the campaign to have Telemachus killed. Unlike the other suitors, he is never portrayed sympathetically, and he is the first to die when Odysseus returns.

 

Eurymachus - A manipulative, deceitful suitor. Eurymachus’s charisma and duplicity allow him to exert some influence over the other suitors.

 

Amphinomus - Among the dozens of suitors, the only decent man seeking Penelope’s hand in marriage. Amphinomus sometimes speaks up for Odysseus and Telemachus, but he is killed like the rest of the suitors in the final fight.

 

Eumaeus - The loyal shepherd who, along with the cowherd Philoetius, helps Odysseus reclaim his throne after his return to Ithaca. Even though he does not know that the vagabond who appears at his hut is Odysseus, Eumaeus gives the man food and shelter.

 

Eurycleia - The aged and loyal servant who nursed Odysseus and Telemachus when they were babies. Eurycleia is well informed about palace intrigues and serves as confidante to her masters. She keeps Telemachus’s journey secret from

 

Penelope, and she later keeps Odysseus’s identity a secret after she recognizes a scar on his leg.

 

Melanthius - The brother of Melantho. Melanthius is a treacherous and opportunistic goatherd who supports the suitors, especially Eurymachus, and abuses the beggar who appears in Odysseus’s palace, not realizing that the man is Odysseus himself.

 

Melantho - Sister of Melanthius and maidservant in Odysseus’s palace. Like her brother, Melantho abuses the beggar in the palace, not knowing that the man is Odysseus. She is having an affair with Eurymachus.

 

Calypso - The beautiful nymph who falls in love with Odysseus when he lands on her island-home of Ogygia. Calypso holds him prisoner there for seven years until Hermes, the messenger god, persuades her to let him go.

 

Polyphemus - One of the Cyclopes (uncivilized one-eyed giants) whose island Odysseus comes to soon after leaving Troy. Polyphemus imprisons Odysseus and his crew and tries to eat them, but Odysseus blinds him through a clever ruse and manages to escape. In doing so, however, Odysseus angers Polyphemus’s father, Poseidon.

 

Circe - The beautiful witch-goddess who transforms Odysseus’s crew into swine when he lands on her island. With Hermes’ help, Odysseus resists Circe’s powers and then becomes her lover, living in luxury at her side for a year.

 

Laertes - Odysseus’s aging father, who resides on a farm in Ithaca. In despair and physical decline, Laertes regains his spirit when Odysseus returns and eventually kills Antinous’s father.

 

Tiresias - A Theban prophet who inhabits the underworld. Tiresias meets Odysseus when Odysseus journeys to the underworld in Book 11. He shows Odysseus how to get back to Ithaca and allows Odysseus to communicate with the other souls in Hades.

 

Nestor - King of Pylos and a former warrior in the Trojan War. Like Odysseus, Nestor is known as a clever speaker. Telemachus visits him in Book 3 to ask about his father, but Nestor knows little of Odysseus’s whereabouts.

 

Menelaus - King of Sparta, brother of Agamemnon, and husband of Helen, he helped lead the Greeks in the Trojan War. He offers Telemachus assistance in his quest to find Odysseus when Telemachus visits him in Book 4.

 

Helen - Wife of Menelaus and queen of Sparta. Helen’s abduction from Sparta by the Trojans sparked the Trojan War. Her beauty is without parallel, but she is criticized for giving in to her Trojan captors and thereby costing many Greek men their lives. She offers Telemachus assistance in his quest to find his father.

 

Agamemnon - Former king of Mycenae, brother of Menelaus, and commander of the Achaean forces at Troy. Odysseus encounters Agamemnon’s spirit in Hades. Agamemnon was murdered by his wife, Clytemnestra, and her lover, Aegisthus, upon his return from the war. He was later avenged by his son Orestes. Their story is constantly repeated in the Odyssey to offer an inverted image of the fortunes of Odysseus and Telemachus.

 

Nausicaa - The beautiful daughter of King Alcinous and Queen Arete of the Phaeacians. Nausicaa discovers Odysseus on the beach at Scheria and, out of budding affection for him, ensures his warm reception at her parents’ palace.

 

Alcinous - King of the Phaeacians, who offers Odysseus hospitality in his island kingdom of Scheria. Alcinous hears the story of Odysseus’s wanderings and provides him with safe passage back to Ithaca.

 

Arete - Queen of the Phaeacians, wife of Alcinous, and mother of Nausicaa. Arete is intelligent and influential. Nausicaa tells Odysseus to make his appeal for assistance to Arete.

 

There are so many more.

How many people do you think remember who these figures are? How have any of them inspired mankind over the centuries?

[Guest amazed]

I've dealt with the evidence for near death experiences before but it bears repeating. Not all expierences cannot be explained by brain activity since there are a number of cases "seeing" things and recounting things miles away. This cannot be explained away via the brain.

 

The drug Ketamine (used legitimately as an adjunct in general anesthesia, and illegitimately as an hallucinogen) can produce the same hallucinatory and sensory symptoms reported by people who have experienced an NDE. So, cultures that use hallucinogens in worship really are finding gawd, eh?

 

An NDE is no more evidence for life after death than is a good high.

 

As for "seeing" and "recounting things miles away," this is nothing more than coincidence or the equivalent of a parlor trick used by palm readers and "mediums" and often demonstrated by James Randi to debunk supernatural horseshit. If you know enough about a person or persons, their habits and routines, you can easily predict where they will be and what will be doing at or near a certain time or under certain circumstances. Further, that person's credulity and emotions will lead them to frank the predictor's observations as legitimate. This is demonstrable and provable. Check out James Randi some time. You might learn a great deal about human credulity and gullibility.

 

Anecdotal, non-repeatable events are not evidence. Events repeatable on demand (e.g. a Ketamine-induced NDE phenomenon) are evidence--that NDE "gawd experiences" are nothing but a high induced by drugs or brain hypoxia.

Have a number of people see what's going on miles away while they are unconscious is not a parlor trick. Nice try in trying to denigrating the evidence but it won't do. You'll have to do better than this....

[Snakefoot]

I've dealt with the evidence for near death experiences before but it bears repeating. Not all expierences cannot be explained by brain activity since there are a number of cases "seeing" things and recounting things miles away. This cannot be explained away via the brain.

 

The drug Ketamine (used legitimately as an adjunct in general anesthesia, and illegitimately as an hallucinogen) can produce the same hallucinatory and sensory symptoms reported by people who have experienced an NDE. So, cultures that use hallucinogens in worship really are finding gawd, eh?

 

An NDE is no more evidence for life after death than is a good high.

 

As for "seeing" and "recounting things miles away," this is nothing more than coincidence or the equivalent of a parlor trick used by palm readers and "mediums" and often demonstrated by James Randi to debunk supernatural horseshit. If you know enough about a person or persons, their habits and routines, you can easily predict where they will be and what will be doing at or near a certain time or under certain circumstances. Further, that person's credulity and emotions will lead them to frank the predictor's observations as legitimate. This is demonstrable and provable. Check out James Randi some time. You might learn a great deal about human credulity and gullibility.

 

Anecdotal, non-repeatable events are not evidence. Events repeatable on demand (e.g. a Ketamine-induced NDE phenomenon) are evidence--that NDE "gawd experiences" are nothing but a high induced by drugs or brain hypoxia.

Have a number of people see what's going on miles away while they are unconscious is not a parlor trick. Nice try in trying to denigrating the evidence but it won't do. You'll have to do better than this....

 

Do you have the ability to reason at all? Or is rote regurgitation of what someone has told you all that you are capable of?

 

People under general anesthesia (or otherwise unconscious) often report vivid dreams or hallucinations. The subconscious mind remains active, inserting memories and knowledge into the dream/hallucination that cause the person to believe they are real. The person often has consciously forgotten these memories, but the subconscious remembers.

 

Jesus Ralph Fucking Christ on a crutch, get your head out of your fake gawd's ass and think.

[agnosticator]

Since atheist don't believe in life after death how do you deal with the death of a loved one? How do you cope with the beleif that you will not see that loved one again?

 

I haven't read the thread yet, but I'll answer the question. I carry that loved one with me, remembering what He/she said to me...remembering our experiences together, and what I have learned from that person. They remain alive within me, and have helped me handle life's problems.

 

What lies beyond death is immaterial to life. If I don't see them after death, they won't see me either. It's really a silly question to ask how one copes with nonexistence. Everyone dies, and everyone did NOT exist before they were born. For every person born, there are multiple persons that cannot exist due to "god's" allowing all the other sperm and eggs to die. "God" also aborts many fetuses. We should be thankful to exist at all.

 

So, your belief that the christian god is in control makes it out to be a mass murderer. He cheated billions and billions out of existence in the first place.

[Snakefoot]

 

Jesus Ralph Fucking Christ on a crutch, get your head out of your fake gawd's ass and think.

 

 

I thought his middle initial was an "H"? As in Jesus H. Christ!

 

In context, you might be right: Jesus Hallucination Christ.