I'm Completely Lost...

[Guest confused idiot]

First, I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

 

Where to begin.... This isn't really a testimony, but more like a cry for help.

 

I've been raised in a Christian home all of my life. Always went to church. I probably "got saved" around the age of seven. I believed, but I didn't dwell on religious things all that much. Those were the best times of my life. I did what I enjoyed and I didn't over-analyze anything. I always had trouble doubting my salvation. I wanted to be saved. I've "got saved" several times. No matter what happened, no matter how much I prayed for salvation, I could never have assurance, I always doubted it. Regardless of that, like I said, I didn't dwell on religious things. Anyway, fastforward to around the age of 15. That was when I made the decision to start taking my faith seriously and truly live for God. That was the beginning of a downward spiral of anxiety and depression. I loved God, I prayed a lot, I read the Bible, I went to church, I did my best to live a life pleasing to God. The more studying I did, the more I learned. The more I learned, the more depressed I got. The more I found out how depressing the Bible is. The more I found out how depressing Christianity is. The more I learned how much obedience and self-denial Christ really required. The more I learned how much I could never measure up. All that is a long, tiresome story that I don't want to fully get into. All of that is a few years worth of thoughts all piled up together. Anyway, a few years later, I'm extremely depressed, anxious, angry, confused. I'm pretty damn pissed off, and I don't even know how to explain why. I'm not a smart guy at all. I'm obviously stupid, gullible, and weak minded. But, even with that said, I'm a deep thinker. I think all the time. That's dangerous. Through these years, I've looked for answers. I've prayed a lot. Poured my heart out to God in prayer. I've talked to many people. I've talked to my old pastor a few times, I've talked to a youth pastor MANY times, I've seen a counselor multiple times, I've talked to different members of my family quite a bit, I've talked to random strangers on the internet, and I can't find any answers. Some people have told me they don't know what to say anymore and tried to shove medicine down my throat, some have tried to convince me that my perceptions of Christianity were wrong and tried to show me why, failing to do so, some have basically told me to get over it and stop focusing on my fucked up mind, and other shit like that. I'm losing my sanity. I don't even have a life anymore. I have no ambition anymore. I have no talent, no skills, no hobbies whatsoever. All I can do is sit around and think. About religion. Religion, I have no doubt, is THE root to my depression. No one will believe me when I say that, but I swear it is. The only way to remove this depression is to remove the root. But that's not an easy thing to do. What about all the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible? What about "miraculous" testimonies? I've never studied evolution, so I can't say much about it. But whether it all started from a big bang or not, SOMETHING had to start it. What about the fact that if the sun were a little bit further away, we'd freeze to death, and if it were a small bit closer, we'd burn up? How could that happen by chance? My mind is stressed and and going faster than I can comprehend. I don't know what to do anymore. I've looked for advice from Christians, that was a joke. I'm now opening my mind and looking for advice from non-Christians. I'm sick and tired of being depressed 24/7, especially when I know what the problem is. The only thing keeping me from eliminating the problem is fear. I'm completely lost. Could anyone please offer me some advice?

[Shyone]

First, I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

 

Your statement might not be a typical "testimonial", but if your in Ex-Christian.net asking questions, you probably have some idea of what kind of answers you might get. Rather than engaging in debates here, you would be better off asking in General Theology or even the Lion's Den. For science related questions (e.g. big bang and evolution), you can ask in the Science and Religion forum. There is a lot of information, and even a lot of work, that has been done to make this forum educational, but it primarily exists to provide emotional support and advice.

 

The more I learned how much I could never measure up.

 

This is perhaps the same dilemma that many people in Christianity face. Unrealistic expectations. We are but human, and we should set goals, but perfection is a goal that can only lead to heartache and disappointment.

 

What about all the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible? What about "miraculous" testimonies? I've never studied evolution, so I can't say much about it. But whether it all started from a big bang or not, SOMETHING had to start it. What about the fact that if the sun were a little bit further away, we'd freeze to death, and if it were a small bit closer, we'd burn up?

 

These are all good questions, and I won't attempt to answer them here, but there are threads where such things have been discussed in detail.

 

I will point out a couple of things that your studies should look at.

 

One thread has a list of OT prophecies that were misused. It was originally posted by Citsonga and I reproduced it in this thread. The original thread was entitled, "Misuses of the Old Testament."

 

Next, evolution isn't about how things got started. It deals with changes that have taken place in the development of living things. It is very interesting, and I encourage you to read about it. A good book would help, or you can read "talkorigins.org" in their extensive library. And it is indeed extensive.

 

The Big Bang deals with beginnings. This is an area where the science is complicated and largely theoretical, and for the most part there is a lack of knowledge. It is not appropriate to insert magical invisible things into gaps in knowledge regarding the beginning of the universe just as it is inappropriate to insert magical beings into ordinary life. If you find a man dead on the floor with a head injury, is it more likely murder, an accident, or an attack from a demon?

 

The beginning of life is called "abiogenesis." It means life from the absence of life. Christians should not dispute that it happened since both agree that there was no life and now there is. It becomes a question of how. Was it through physical principles (chemistry and physics) or a magical being that magically put DNA mollecules in a particular sequence?

 

The fine tuning of the universe is 1) not so fine tuned and 2) just the way it is. We are here, but if the universe had been quite different, we either wouldn't be around to wonder why or we would be very different beings. Perhaps we might be a vortex of Gas on a giant planet, or molten nickle in the center of a star. Or just electrons that have self-organized and become one or many beings.

 

Everything we have looked at, from lightening and thunder to earthquakes and eclipses, has had a natural explanation. There are no omens in the sky, and the planets, stars and galaxies all operate according to physical principles with no invisible hand moving things around. Even supposing that some alien science experiment went awry and blew up the old universe, or that some mindless force hiccuped and vomited the universe, there is still no reason to suppose that this alien force/being has anything to do with us - isolated on this tiny world as we are.

 

One last thing. Regarding miracles, you might wonder why God never heals amputees. It's always something that is hidden, and generally unprovable.

 

As Thomas Paine wrote, "If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it, and we see an account given of such miracle by the person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is, is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie."

 

If you wish to argue for the existence of God in order to understand why we no longer believe in the Christian god, then it would be better to open a thread in the Lion's Den rather than the testimonial section.

[Guest confused idiot]

First, I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

 

Your statement might not be a typical "testimonial", but if your in Ex-Christian.net asking questions, you probably have some idea of what kind of answers you might get. Rather than engaging in debates here, you would be better off asking in General Theology or even the Lion's Den. For science related questions (e.g. big bang and evolution), you can ask in the Science and Religion forum. There is a lot of information, and even a lot of work, that has been done to make this forum educational, but it primarily exists to provide emotional support and advice.

 

The more I learned how much I could never measure up.

 

This is perhaps the same dilemma that many people in Christianity face. Unrealistic expectations. We are but human, and we should set goals, but perfection is a goal that can only lead to heartache and disappointment.

 

What about all the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible? What about "miraculous" testimonies? I've never studied evolution, so I can't say much about it. But whether it all started from a big bang or not, SOMETHING had to start it. What about the fact that if the sun were a little bit further away, we'd freeze to death, and if it were a small bit closer, we'd burn up?

 

These are all good questions, and I won't attempt to answer them here, but there are threads where such things have been discussed in detail.

 

I will point out a couple of things that your studies should look at.

 

One thread has a list of OT prophecies that were misused. It was originally posted by Citsonga and I reproduced it in this thread. The original thread was entitled, "Misuses of the Old Testament."

 

Next, evolution isn't about how things got started. It deals with changes that have taken place in the development of living things. It is very interesting, and I encourage you to read about it. A good book would help, or you can read "talkorigins.org" in their extensive library. And it is indeed extensive.

 

The Big Bang deals with beginnings. This is an area where the science is complicated and largely theoretical, and for the most part there is a lack of knowledge. It is not appropriate to insert magical invisible things into gaps in knowledge regarding the beginning of the universe just as it is inappropriate to insert magical beings into ordinary life. If you find a man dead on the floor with a head injury, is it more likely murder, an accident, or an attack from a demon?

 

The beginning of life is called "abiogenesis." It means life from the absence of life. Christians should not dispute that it happened since both agree that there was no life and now there is. It becomes a question of how. Was it through physical principles (chemistry and physics) or a magical being that magically put DNA mollecules in a particular sequence?

 

The fine tuning of the universe is 1) not so fine tuned and 2) just the way it is. We are here, but if the universe had been quite different, we either wouldn't be around to wonder why or we would be very different beings. Perhaps we might be a vortex of Gas on a giant planet, or molten nickle in the center of a star. Or just electrons that have self-organized and become one or many beings.

 

Everything we have looked at, from lightening and thunder to earthquakes and eclipses, has had a natural explanation. There are no omens in the sky, and the planets, stars and galaxies all operate according to physical principles with no invisible hand moving things around. Even supposing that some alien science experiment went awry and blew up the old universe, or that some mindless force hiccuped and vomited the universe, there is still no reason to suppose that this alien force/being has anything to do with us - isolated on this tiny world as we are.

 

One last thing. Regarding miracles, you might wonder why God never heals amputees. It's always something that is hidden, and generally unprovable.

 

As Thomas Paine wrote, "If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it, and we see an account given of such miracle by the person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is, is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie."

 

If you wish to argue for the existence of God in order to understand why we no longer believe in the Christian god, then it would be better to open a thread in the Lion's Den rather than the testimonial section.

 

Thanks for the reply. Most of this is completely foreign to me, as I was never taught about it, but I'll check out those links you provided.

 

One other thing, just to throw this out there. I do not wish to argue or debate. My only goal is to be honest and maybe learn to see things in a different light.

[Carmen]

I'm so sorry you are going through so much anxiety and depression. I have seen people like you who became deeply depressed because of religion, and seeing what religion did to those people is one of the reasons why I left the faith.

 

The idea that we are all evil deep down inside is a sad and morbid concept; it's no wonder it depresses you. But look around you. Can you honestly believe that every human is so evil that they deserve to burn forever in eternal torment? Is that really logical or ethical, and is there really any proof for it? Atheists are not immoral people. Once you get to know them you will see that they are no different than you. They are human beings, with the power to do great good or great evil. There are moral atheists and Christians, and there are also immoral atheists and Christians. Our morality and worth is not dependent on a god, it is dependent on our own choices. We are NOT inherently evil. You have the power to control your own life with your own choices.

 

It sounds as if certain Christian arguments are keeping you in the faith. I think the above poster answered those arguments pretty well, but remember to keep searching for yourself. Try to test everything you read and see objectively. Read Christian literature, read atheist literature, read literature of other religions. Consider both sides of the matter and continue thinking about what you REALLY believe.

[Carmen]

One other thing, just to throw this out there. I do not wish to argue or debate. My only goal is to be honest and maybe learn to see things in a different light.

 

That's a good goal; open-mindedness is the first step to finding the truth.

[Shyone]

Thanks for the reply. Most of this is completely foreign to me, as I was never taught about it, but I'll check out those links you provided.

 

One other thing, just to throw this out there. I do not wish to argue or debate. My only goal is to be honest and maybe learn to see things in a different light.

One last thing. You will read that many who had depression because they wre Christians are happier as non-christians. That may be true, but the fact is that one should not accept or reject a belief because of how it makes you feel. Truth is truth even when we don't want it to be true. It just happens that Christianity (and other religions as well) can create unnatural stresses. Some people claim to be happier as Christians even if Christianity is a lie.

 

For me, and many others, I would rather know what is real than live in a fantasy world. Many religions, past and present, offer views of the world that are untestable, mutually exclusive and frequently harmful. Being born in a part of the world with one dominant view of religion does not make that belief any more real than being born in some other part of the world. Even strongly held beliefs can be wrong.

 

You might ask yourself why the gods are hiding now.

 

I suspect that Aesop was an atheist. His story about the Emperor's New Clothes pretty much describes how people can be persuaded that something exists when it just doesn't. I'm sure the emperor was happy when he thought he was wearing some really nice clothes, but sometimes you just have to face the unpleasant, naked truth.

[Guest confused idiot]

 

Can you honestly believe that every human is so evil that they deserve to burn forever in eternal torment? Is that really logical or ethical, and is there really any proof for it?

 

All I can say is this... Eternal torment in a never-ending lake of fire seems extremely harsh, even for the most wicked sinner that ever lived. But, if the Bible is true, then that means God is holy, perfect, righteous, just, and without sin. That would mean that he cannot allow sin in his presence, and cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. And if we have souls that are eternal, and God is eternal, wouldn't that mean punishment for our sin would be eternal? I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching at anyone, because that's definitely not my goal. I'm just trying to think all this through without overlooking anything.

 

 

Atheists are not immoral people. Once you get to know them you will see that they are no different than you. They are human beings, with the power to do great good or great evil. There are moral atheists and Christians, and there are also immoral atheists and Christians.

 

I completely agree with you. I have found that many atheists are overall better people than many Christians.

 

 

We are NOT inherently evil.

 

Again, I defintely do not want to sound like a disguised Christian on here trying to win converts, but I have one thing that I want to say about this.

 

While I'm not saying we're evil, I do believe that it is in our very nature to do things that go against our conscience. Think about it this way, you don't have to teach a kid to lie, it just comes natural. You have to teach them not to lie.

 

 

It sounds as if certain Christian arguments are keeping you in the faith. I think the above poster answered those arguments pretty well, but remember to keep searching for yourself. Try to test everything you read and see objectively. Read Christian literature, read atheist literature, read literature of other religions. Consider both sides of the matter and continue thinking about what you REALLY believe.

 

Could be. I will try my best to test everything I read, see, and hear. One of my biggest problems at the moment is simply that I'm weak minded and gullible. That's going to make things very hard. But, regardless of that, I will search for the truth.

[par4dcourse]

Welcome to the site, confused.

 

Few of us woke up one morning and said "I think I'll be an Atheist today." The path of long days of deep thought has been trod by many.

 

Try, just for shits and giggles, to think "what if it isn't true?" The bible was written by simple herders that were trying to make sense of a world they didn't understand, and "the church" modified those myths to control the masses under threat of eternal damnation.

 

The tales of super beings and eternal punishment start to sound like kids' moral-laden fairy tales which, in essence they are.

 

A quote comes to mind: "You don't have to believe everything you think."

 

Good luck on your journey.

 

--Larry

[Hydroman74]

I've "got saved" several times. No matter what happened, no matter how much I prayed for salvation, I could never have assurance, I always doubted it.

 

Ha, I did the same thing. You know why? Because we hear nothing back from this god. You can ONLY have faith. When I finally lost my faith, I realized I just couldn't believe in god anymore.

 

I'm losing my sanity. I don't even have a life anymore. I have no ambition anymore. I have no talent, no skills, no hobbies whatsoever. All I can do is sit around and think. About religion. Religion, I have no doubt, is THE root to my depression. No one will believe me when I say that, but I swear it is. The only way to remove this depression is to remove the root. But that's not an easy thing to do.

 

No, it is NOT easy to stop believing. You need to research things like how the bible was put together, how religions are formed, etc. What about the other religions in the world? How'd they come about? Did the authors of other religious texts make up that stuff just for the heck of it? A lot of it was written before the bible. Question it all.

 

Skills can be developed. Ambition can be aquired. Hobbies can be found. Don't give up.

 

What about all the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible? What about "miraculous" testimonies? I've never studied evolution, so I can't say much about it. But whether it all started from a big bang or not, SOMETHING had to start it. What about the fact that if the sun were a little bit further away, we'd freeze to death, and if it were a small bit closer, we'd burn up? How could that happen by chance?

 

Fulfilled prophecy in the bible? What about the fulfilled prophecy in the Koran and other muslim writings? That stuff is so vague, how can it be believed?

 

Miraculous testimonies? What about miraculous testimonies in ALL faiths, not just christianity?

 

You should look at the claims of evolution. Don't be afraid.

 

So, you don't understand the Big Bang, therefore a god must have done it? Do you understand how lightning works? I'll give you a hint, it's not Zeus doing it. It's nature. Just because you can't comprehend how something happened doesn't mean a god did it. But, many natural things that have happened in the past have been attributed to various gods doing it. Hell, I've even heard people say that god caused Hurricane Katrina to happen to punish the people of New Orleans for their sins. Ha, Las Vegas should've been swallowed whole a long time ago if that was the case. So, the Big Bang could've occured because the right conditions were met for it to occur, just like lightning. Who knows?

 

What about the earth being closer to the sun or further away we wouldn't be here? If that truly is the case, maybe that IS why we are HERE and NOT on Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, Pluto, or our moon. The conditions were right on earth for life as we know it to come about. The conditions were not right on the other planets as far as we know. Does that make sense?

 

Again, this is not an easy journey. We know that. Most of us have been in your shoes. But, keep searching for truth. Maybe you'll find it in christianity, and maybe you won't. But, keep searching.

[Carmen]

All I can say is this... Eternal torment in a never-ending lake of fire seems extremely harsh, even for the most wicked sinner that ever lived. But, if the Bible is true, then that means God is holy, perfect, righteous, just, and without sin. That would mean that he cannot allow sin in his presence, and cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. And if we have souls that are eternal, and God is eternal, wouldn't that mean punishment for our sin would be eternal? I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching at anyone, because that's definitely not my goal. I'm just trying to think all this through without overlooking anything.

 

This is an argument that I've heard Christians use many times to justify the idea of hell. But consider this. Do you believe this philosophy because it makes sense, or because you are afraid of hell? Where is the proof that hell exists? Also, why would God even create humanity when he knew that a huge majority of his beloved humans would have to burn forever eternally in torment?

 

It doesn't make sense that God would send someone to hell just because they didn't believe it existed. Instead of looking at hell from the biblical perspective, try to see it this way. Billions of people grow up in other religions, and they sincerely believe these religions because it is all they have ever known. These people are not choosing to reject god or live in sin; they believe in their systems because they have been told this all their lives. Many of them may have never even heard of Christianity. Would God send these people to hell just because they never had a chance to hear about his message? Why would god let people de-convert from the faith? Once again, us ex-Christians de-converted because we found there was too much evidence against Christianity, not because we wanted to follow Satan. I'm sure you realize that. The doctrine of hell does not make sense, it is unethical, twisted, and bizarre. Here's another scenario to consider.

 

One young boy causes nothing but pain for his family and he willingly chooses to alienate people and hurt the ones who love him. He grows up to be a sociopath, kills his wife and children, and then goes on to murder and rape dozens of people. He is sentenced to death. In jail he is still causing misery to everyone. A day before his execution, a pastor visits the jail and the man converts to Christianity.

 

Man 2 is a compassionate, responsible, and loving person who works hard, provides and cares for his family, gives thousands of dollars to charity organizations and spends his spare time volunteering at a homeless shelter. He helps many people and changes people's lives with his love and care. He is a loving husband and father. He learns as much as he can about the world and he tries to weigh the options objectively. He learns about Christianity, but does not believe because he doesn't think there is enough proof. He dies an atheist.

 

According to Christianity, the first man goes to heaven and the second man goes to hell.

 

Are there any other reasons to believe that hell exists besides that the Bible says so?

 

Again, I defintely do not want to sound like a disguised Christian on here trying to win converts, but I have one thing that I want to say about this.

 

While I'm not saying we're evil, I do believe that it is in our very nature to do things that go against our conscience. Think about it this way, you don't have to teach a kid to lie, it just comes natural. You have to teach them not to lie.

 

You have a point there. But just because we sometimes go against our conscience, it doesn't necessarily prove the existence of a god. Our sense of morality continues to develop as we go through life, and our choices determine the kind of people we become.

[Hydroman74]

You have a point there. But just because we sometimes go against our conscience, it doesn't necessarily prove the existence of a god. Our sense of morality continues to develop as we go through life, and our choices determine the kind of people we become.

And in different cultures, morality can be different. Do you think it is moral to cut the hand off of someone who is caught stealing? It happens in some cultures. Do you think it is moral to beat your wife when she is disobedient? It happens in some cultures. Do you think it is moral to lay on a public beach nude or have nudity in your T.V. commercials? It happens in some cultures. Do you think it is moral for a man to marry a girl who is under 16? It happens in some cultures. Do you think it is moral to attack a nation and slaughter everyone in their path but keep the virgins for themselves? Moses did it. Etc. etc.

[Petrel]

All I can say is this... Eternal torment in a never-ending lake of fire seems extremely harsh, even for the most wicked sinner that ever lived. But, if the Bible is true, then that means God is holy, perfect, righteous, just, and without sin. That would mean that he cannot allow sin in his presence, and cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. And if we have souls that are eternal, and God is eternal, wouldn't that mean punishment for our sin would be eternal? I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching at anyone, because that's definitely not my goal. I'm just trying to think all this through without overlooking anything.

Depending on your theology, Jesus either paid for the sins of every human who has ever existed and will exist or every human who has been or ever will be saved. Depending on your theology, he either went to hell for three days and suffered the same torment anyone there would or he just suffered a temporary separation from the rest of God (how does that work?? ) So according to the most common evangelical/fundamentalist theology, Jesus died for the sins of every person ever existing, including Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Genghis Khan, Vlad Tepes, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, and every other homicidal rapist ever existing, plus the normal burden of everyday sins of billions--and how many times a day does the average person sin? And he paid for the aggregate of human immorality in a mere three days in hell. So divide that out over all of these people and how long do we really deserve to burn in hell? Assuming an equal load of sin for each person, which is clearly incorrect (Hitler deserves a lot more suffering than the average teenage kid), and assuming 6 billion people, which is an underestimate, it works out to 43 microseconds. A reflex arc is on the order of hundreds of milliseconds, so the maximum appropriate suffering time in hell is 1/3000 of the amount of time it takes for you to snatch your hand back after touching a hot stove.

 

Does it even make sense that Jesus could pay for our sins in this way? Heck no. That's like my robbing a store and you getting thrown in jail for my crime. Does that make me less guilty? No. Would it make the person I robbed from financially whole if instead you were flogged for the crime? No. Yet God apparently demands as restitution torture of the person who wronged him, even if the wrong was something that we would just consider worth an annoyed glance! And in the case of salvation, he tortures a completely unrelated person and then forgives you as long as you say you're sorry! Why not cut out the middleman, skip torturing the innocent bystander, skip the pointless agony, and accept the apology?

 

Really, when you stop and think about it, the whole idea of hell and a sacrificial substitution makes no sense!

 

Edit: Corrected bad math.

[Petrel]

More ranting. . . Because hell is just that bad a concept.

 

Evangelical/fundamentalist Christians have a really double-think approach to the worth of humanity. They think every person is valuable and should be loved, but they also think that every person should burn in hell for eternity. How does that work? If it is really true that we deserve to burn in hell, than it's equally true that each one of us deserves to be tortured from this second on until the end of our lives, and then to continue being tortured for eternity in hell. We should all be willing to take up the red-hot iron or cat of nine tails and torture our fellow humans, because that's what they deserve. Of course, we're not permitted because God has told us not to, but if he were to change his mind we should be willing and able. Do you really honestly think that your mother, brother, or daughter deserves to be tortured at this moment? If not, why would they deserve to be tortured after death?

 

Strangely at the same time we're supposed to love others. How does that work? Love is not compatible with pointless cruelty.

[Hydroman74]

Sacrifices. No, they don't make sense. Yet, not only did the Abrahamic religions practice it, most ancient cultures practiced it.

 

Why did God enjoy the smell of these animals as they burned? He created all this stuff, does he like the smell of barbecued meat like we do? I wonder if he even had a nose before he created everything. What was there to smell before he created it?

 

Also, was it really a sacrifice for Jesus to die then resurrect? Imagine, he died and came back to life, now lives as a god in heaven? Is that a sacrifice? What if the animals that were sacrificed by the ancient peoples came back to life after they were killed? Would that still be considered a sacrifice?

[Guest confused idiot]

I appreciate all of your responses. I was going to try to directly reply to all of you in one single post, but I'm not sure exactly how to do that. I'm new to all this.

 

Anyway, like I said previously, I still don't see how the evolutionary process could have even started without some sort of higher power. Even if it all started from one single cell, where did the cell come from? Even with that said, I'm still skeptic about a lot of religious things... If the truth is supposed to set free, why does it bring depression, anxiety, anger, confusion, and hopelessness? Something is not quite right. I need to study evolution, and maybe look at the claims of other religions. I'm particularly interested in looking at the Koran and it's supposedly fulfilled prophecies.

[ShallowByThyGame]

What about all the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible?

1. If you study the bible, you can see that the new testaments authors tried to pound the story of jesus into the old testament prophecies. Please watch this series

2. It's easy to fulfill a prophecy when you know about it before hand.

 

What about "miraculous" testimonies?

Eyewitness testimony is not thought of as reliable in court, and neither should it be considered as reliable for evidence of the supernatural. This series might help here.

 

I've never studied evolution, so I can't say much about it. But whether it all started from a big bang or not, SOMETHING had to start it. What about the fact that if the sun were a little bit further away, we'd freeze to death, and if it were a small bit closer, we'd burn up? How could that happen by chance?

Please watch this series

[Petrel]

I appreciate all of your responses. I was going to try to directly reply to all of you in one single post, but I'm not sure exactly how to do that. I'm new to all this.

 

If you hit the multi-quote button for a series of posts when you hit reply on the last one it all of them are quoted in the post editor. Or something like that, I've only used it once!

 

Anyway, like I said previously, I still don't see how the evolutionary process could have even started without some sort of higher power. Even if it all started from one single cell, where did the cell come from?

 

Why could the cell not arise from natural processes? Crystals grow according to natural laws and storms form according to natural laws. Both of these processes are organized events (a storm is chaotic but also organized, like the Red Spot on Jupiter, a gigantic persistent storm). At its basic level a cell is a collection of chemicals carrying out various reactions. Cells look incredibly organized but if you look at them more closely they're incredibly dis-organized. There are all sorts of proteins that we look at and say, "Well this protein does this", but if you look more closely that protein also has interactions with a bunch of other proteins or RNAs, some interactions possibly carrying out a useful role, and others probably biologically insignificant. Because of various lines of evidence it's thought that cellular life was preceded by an RNA world, with self-propagating RNA molecules competing with each other (we have made similar self-propagating RNAs in the lab). Through means we're not sure of yet, coding for peptide chains evolved, and RNAs capable of coding for useful peptides outcompeted non-coding RNAs. Eventually the first cells (chemical constructs of nucleic acid genomes, protein products, and other chemicals made by those proteins) evolved. We don't know all the details yet, and we may never know exactly how it happened, but the evidence so far appears that the origin of life was a purely natural event.

 

Even with that said, I'm still skeptic about a lot of religious things... If the truth is supposed to set free, why does it bring depression, anxiety, anger, confusion, and hopelessness? Something is not quite right. I need to study evolution, and maybe look at the claims of other religions. I'm particularly interested in looking at the Koran and it's supposedly fulfilled prophecies.

Freedom does not always mean happiness. Christianity also does not invariably bring happiness, peace, and hope. There are a lot of people here who were emotionally tormented while Christian. When I deconverted it was a relief. I no longer had to worry about my father and grandmother being tortured in hell, and I no longer had to be estranged from my sister since she's lesbian. I did not convert for these reasons, though, but the removal of my anxiety over these things was a welcome perk of deconversion!

[Steve20]

All I can say is this... Eternal torment in a never-ending lake of fire seems extremely harsh, even for the most wicked sinner that ever lived. But, if the Bible is true, then that means God is holy, perfect, righteous, just, and without sin. That would mean that he cannot allow sin in his presence, and cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. And if we have souls that are eternal, and God is eternal, wouldn't that mean punishment for our sin would be eternal? I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching at anyone, because that's definitely not my goal. I'm just trying to think all this through without overlooking anything.

Depending on your theology, Jesus either paid for the sins of every human who has ever existed and will exist or every human who has been or ever will be saved. Depending on your theology, he either went to hell for three days and suffered the same torment anyone there would or he just suffered a temporary separation from the rest of God (how does that work?? ) So according to the most common evangelical/fundamentalist theology, Jesus died for the sins of every person ever existing, including Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Genghis Khan, Vlad Tepes, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, and every other homicidal rapist ever existing, plus the normal burden of everyday sins of billions--and how many times a day does the average person sin? And he paid for the aggregate of human immorality in a mere three days in hell. So divide that out over all of these people and how long do we really deserve to burn in hell? Assuming an equal load of sin for each person, which is clearly incorrect (Hitler deserves a lot more suffering than the average teenage kid), and assuming 6 billion people, which is an underestimate, it works out to 43 microseconds. A reflex arc is on the order of hundreds of milliseconds, so the maximum appropriate suffering time in hell is 1/3000 of the amount of time it takes for you to snatch your hand back after touching a hot stove.

 

Does it even make sense that Jesus could pay for our sins in this way? Heck no. That's like my robbing a store and you getting thrown in jail for my crime. Does that make me less guilty? No. Would it make the person I robbed from financially whole if instead you were flogged for the crime? No. Yet God apparently demands as restitution torture of the person who wronged him, even if the wrong was something that we would just consider worth an annoyed glance! And in the case of salvation, he tortures a completely unrelated person and then forgives you as long as you say you're sorry! Why not cut out the middleman, skip torturing the innocent bystander, skip the pointless agony, and accept the apology?

 

Really, when you stop and think about it, the whole idea of hell and a sacrificial substitution makes no sense!

 

Edit: Corrected bad math.

 

Good explaination. The whole concept of hell doesn't make sense.

[Petrel]

Also, was it really a sacrifice for Jesus to die then resurrect? Imagine, he died and came back to life, now lives as a god in heaven? Is that a sacrifice? What if the animals that were sacrificed by the ancient peoples came back to life after they were killed? Would that still be considered a sacrifice?

Nope, it's not. In the Old Testament it's clear that a sacrifice was gone forever, and God (or rather, the priests waiting for dinner) wanted the best of the flocks. If you didn't permanently lose whatever it was, it didn't count as a sacrifice.

 

I always took for granted the idea that the resurrection was necessary while I was a Christian, but it seems things would make more sense if Jesus stayed in hell forever. I guess the idea that he came back to life is supposed to make people more likely to believe they will have a life after death or maybe make early Christianity more cool. Instead it makes it look like God's letting his son skate on the punishment for the sins of the world when they have to suffer forever for the petty sins of one human. Such favoritism!

 

Should totally post that on Facebook for Easter. I'd lose half my friends list.

[Drew21361]

I appreciate all of your responses. I was going to try to directly reply to all of you in one single post, but I'm not sure exactly how to do that. I'm new to all this.

 

Anyway, like I said previously, I still don't see how the evolutionary process could have even started without some sort of higher power. Even if it all started from one single cell, where did the cell come from? Even with that said, I'm still skeptic about a lot of religious things... If the truth is supposed to set free, why does it bring depression, anxiety, anger, confusion, and hopelessness? Something is not quite right. I need to study evolution, and maybe look at the claims of other religions. I'm particularly interested in looking at the Koran and it's supposedly fulfilled prophecies.

 

Firstly, I assure you, you're not an idiot as you put it. Curiosity is part and parcel of being a person. You believe that God created man, then why would he give you the power to dare question him as you have? See what I'm getting at? This was one of the main reasons that I lost what little grasp I had on faith to begin with. No such creator, no such Celestial Dictator (Quote from Hitchens) would empower you with the ability to question his motives, his reasons, lest his existence! What I'm trying to get at here is that curiosity is okay, and it doesn't make you an idiot. It is because of curiosity that we have modern medicine, that kind of "Let's mix these two chemicals together and just see what happens" attitude is what got us to where we are today. So that's your name taken care of! Now then...

 

The argument over evolution will continue as long as the "it had to have come from SOMEWHERE" question exists. As someone who has little scientific knowledge, I can't really argue the case for evolution beyond my own opinions: Religion has the Bible. We have two thousand years or so of evidence, theories, thoughts, and whatnot suggesting that all was not created in 7 days, and in actual fact, things are still being created and will continue to do so as long as time exists. When you speak of investigating other religions, namely Islam, I would warn you against such a thing. Make no mistake, I am not prejudiced in any way against practitioners of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or anything else, BUT, I don't think searching any other religion that is essentially the same as your current one is the answer. I think that you are desperately clawing at any chance you have to hold onto faith of some sort. This is the point where I would say that you need to start looking outside faith, outside religion, and outside what you've been told so far for answers. No 'supposedly fulfilled prophecies' are going to make you feel any better, because such prophecies are just as mindless as Evangelists claiming that we're in the end-times every time a Democrat is elected to the White House.

 

Look outside your spectrum of belief. Look outside faith. Read Dawkins, read Harris, Hitchens, Assimov, Barker - they're all good. You can't go wrong. I wish you luck. Don't ever let faith stand in your way of happiness. Happiness is human nature that is dictated by you - not someone or something else.

[Shyone]

More ranting. . . Because hell is just that bad a concept.

 

Evangelical/fundamentalist Christians have a really double-think approach to the worth of humanity. They think every person is valuable and should be loved, but they also think that every person should burn in hell for eternity. How does that work? If it is really true that we deserve to burn in hell, than it's equally true that each one of us deserves to be tortured from this second on until the end of our lives, and then to continue being tortured for eternity in hell. We should all be willing to take up the red-hot iron or cat of nine tails and torture our fellow humans, because that's what they deserve. Of course, we're not permitted because God has told us not to, but if he were to change his mind we should be willing and able. Do you really honestly think that your mother, brother, or daughter deserves to be tortured at this moment? If not, why would they deserve to be tortured after death?

 

Strangely at the same time we're supposed to love others. How does that work? Love is not compatible with pointless cruelty.

I love the way you think. Brilliant.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Welcome, confused guy (despite your user name, I refuse to call you an "idiot," because idiots don't question and search for truth).

 

What about all the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible?

 

When I first started questioning, I figured that the bedrock of proof for christianity was "fulfilled prophecies," so I decided to take a closer look. I looked through the gospels again and when I saw claims of prophetic fulfillments, I looked up the original OT passages and read them in context. What I found completely shattered christianity for me. The fact of the matter is that time after time the gospel writers took OT passages completely out of context (sometimes rewording them as needed) in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments. It hit me like a ton of bricks: If they had a true story worth believing, then WHY would they resort to such underhanded tactics?

 

Anyway, I wrote a somewhat lengthy piece about some of these fabricated prophetic fulfillments. Shyone already posted a link to it in his first reply, and I recommend taking a look at it when you get some time.

 

I've talked to my old pastor a few times, I've talked to a youth pastor MANY times, I've seen a counselor multiple times, I've talked to different members of my family quite a bit, I've talked to random strangers on the internet, and I can't find any answers.

 

The problem with pastors and fellow christians (was the counselor christian?) is that they (especially the pastors) have an obligation to try to keep you in the faith. They cannot explore questions openmindedly, because they have to have a conclusion that is favorable to christianity. In other words, they start with the "answer" rather than just going where the evidence leads. That's why there is nothing scientific about apologetics.

 

What about "miraculous" testimonies?

 

People of different faiths claim miracles to confirm their faith. Beyond that, when dealing specifically with christian claims, in my experience such miracle claims tend to fall into at least one of two categories: (1) things that could equally be explained by chance, or (2) things that supposedly happened in remote places on the other side of the world where we cannot investigate the claims. When looking at it from that light, it seems a bit telling, doesn't it?

 

I've never studied evolution, so I can't say much about it. But whether it all started from a big bang or not, SOMETHING had to start it.

 

Not all nonbelievers are atheists. Some are deists. In fact, I would highly recommend the book "God vs. The Bible" by John Armstrong, who is a deist. You can even read it online for free at his website: http://www.godvsthebible.com/book

 

I'm sick and tired of being depressed 24/7

 

Many of us have gone through similar circumstances. I know I was depressed for a while when I started questioning. As things cleared up a bit in my head, the depression subsided. I still regret the years I wasted as a firm believer, but at least I'm no longer shackled by religion. I certainly wish the same fore you.

 

Anyway, I hope this, along with what others have said, will help you. Your desire for truth is noble. Good luck, and enjoy the journey ahead of you....

[ShackledNoMore]

Welcome, CI.

 

It may be confusing, but your propensity for deep thinking, as well as your being well spoken betrays you as someone who is not an idiot. You are certainly not more gullible than any of us here: you were indoctrinated, as were we, and you are thinking now.

 

Fortunately, there are many resources available that discuss your questions. Those biblical prophecies? Google the topic for both apologist sites and atheist sites. Look for books on the topic. Do lots of reading. What do the religionists deem as fulfilled prophecies? How does it fit in context?

 

Put your own very assumptions under the spotlight? Did something have to start it all? What is the underlying assumption for that premise? Why would god be a first cause? Where did god come from? Is it any more satisfying to believe that god had no cause than that the universe had no cause? If you think about why people believe that god was a first cause, I think they have to put him outside the universe. Is it still a reasonable set premises to accept that 1) everything has a cause and 2) there is something distinct from the universe that does not need a cause to act as a first cause for everything else?

 

Remember, evolution and origin of life, and the origin of the universe, are all very different things, and they are all worthy of study. More reading to do! Darwin's "Origin of Species" is pretty old, perhaps dated, but it is well written and quite solid. In a thought experiment, imagine life on another planet, and how it would be different from life on earth if conditions on the planet were different. Imagine how mind bogglingly many planets may exist in the universe that might have the potential for some sort of life, that are not too hot or not too cold?

 

What about testimonies? How does the human psyche work? Why would people attribute life transformations and healing to god? Why do religionists of every stripe have corroborating testimonies for their variety of religion, often at conflict with other sects? When the chips are down, christianity offers a lifeline for some, where something outside one's self can make everything better. How would something like this appeal to some? How would it play into testimonies?

 

Take heart. What did you learn from christianity? You learned that you were a worm, unworthy, deserving of hell, but for jesus' sacrifice and "gift" to you. Take heart, because as you confront this assumption, and start to find that christianity does not hold water, it can no longer follow that you are utterly depraved, and that should help with the depression. Challenge the question of the depravity of man and the impact of the saviour as you challenge everything else. Think about everything that's been fed to you to nurture the idea that you are a vile sinner, weak and worthless. Is it a carefully crafted argument to recruit and retain converts?

 

Question everything, and don't settle for lame answers. All the best to you.

[Hydroman74]

You know CI, don't you think it strange that you have to question whether your beliefs are true, or whether or not any gods are real? Do you question whether or not your parents are real? Do you question whether or not your friends are real? See, you have relationships with these people. You communicate with them verbally, they communicate back with you verbally. Information is exchanged between them and you.

 

When talking about an omnipotent being who created this whole universe, all that is seen and unseen, and you are told that he wants a relationship with you, how good was your relationship with this being? Did you have such open communication with this being like you do with your family and friends? Like it is with the rest of us, the answer is NO.

 

You know, I've asked my dad questions of whether or not he would do certain things if god told him to. You know what his answer was? "I'd have to make sure it was god telling me to do it." So, why is it so hard to communicate with this omnipotent being that you 'have to make sure it was god' telling you to do something? Where is this god? Why do so many people get things wrong when they say "god told me this...."? Can they not determine whether a god is talking to them or not? Why would this god make it so difficult to communicate with him if he wants to have a relationship with us?

 

If this god was real and wanted to know us, why wouldn't he make himself known to us so that we could actually get to know him? If he did that, we couldn't have to be here asking whether or not he exists.

[patrickTheSaint]

Hi there.

 

If it's fear of hell that's eating at you, don't worry. It's a myth based on an old garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. See link below.

 

The "prophecies" to which you refer were largely intentionally fulfilled. The gospel writers had read the Old Testament, so they would have known how to make the New Testament fit. Incidentally, have you read each of the Gospels side by side? If so, you'll notice they contradict one another.

 

If you want to ask me any questions about inconsistencies in the Bible, please contact me.

 

 

First, I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

 

Where to begin.... This isn't really a testimony, but more like a cry for help.

 

I've been raised in a Christian home all of my life. Always went to church. I probably "got saved" around the age of seven. I believed, but I didn't dwell on religious things all that much. Those were the best times of my life. I did what I enjoyed and I didn't over-analyze anything. I always had trouble doubting my salvation. I wanted to be saved. I've "got saved" several times. No matter what happened, no matter how much I prayed for salvation, I could never have assurance, I always doubted it. Regardless of that, like I said, I didn't dwell on religious things. Anyway, fastforward to around the age of 15. That was when I made the decision to start taking my faith seriously and truly live for God. That was the beginning of a downward spiral of anxiety and depression. I loved God, I prayed a lot, I read the Bible, I went to church, I did my best to live a life pleasing to God. The more studying I did, the more I learned. The more I learned, the more depressed I got. The more I found out how depressing the Bible is. The more I found out how depressing Christianity is. The more I learned how much obedience and self-denial Christ really required. The more I learned how much I could never measure up. All that is a long, tiresome story that I don't want to fully get into. All of that is a few years worth of thoughts all piled up together. Anyway, a few years later, I'm extremely depressed, anxious, angry, confused. I'm pretty damn pissed off, and I don't even know how to explain why. I'm not a smart guy at all. I'm obviously stupid, gullible, and weak minded. But, even with that said, I'm a deep thinker. I think all the time. That's dangerous. Through these years, I've looked for answers. I've prayed a lot. Poured my heart out to God in prayer. I've talked to many people. I've talked to my old pastor a few times, I've talked to a youth pastor MANY times, I've seen a counselor multiple times, I've talked to different members of my family quite a bit, I've talked to random strangers on the internet, and I can't find any answers. Some people have told me they don't know what to say anymore and tried to shove medicine down my throat, some have tried to convince me that my perceptions of Christianity were wrong and tried to show me why, failing to do so, some have basically told me to get over it and stop focusing on my fucked up mind, and other shit like that. I'm losing my sanity. I don't even have a life anymore. I have no ambition anymore. I have no talent, no skills, no hobbies whatsoever. All I can do is sit around and think. About religion. Religion, I have no doubt, is THE root to my depression. No one will believe me when I say that, but I swear it is. The only way to remove this depression is to remove the root. But that's not an easy thing to do. What about all the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible? What about "miraculous" testimonies? I've never studied evolution, so I can't say much about it. But whether it all started from a big bang or not, SOMETHING had to start it. What about the fact that if the sun were a little bit further away, we'd freeze to death, and if it were a small bit closer, we'd burn up? How could that happen by chance? My mind is stressed and and going faster than I can comprehend. I don't know what to do anymore. I've looked for advice from Christians, that was a joke. I'm now opening my mind and looking for advice from non-Christians. I'm sick and tired of being depressed 24/7, especially when I know what the problem is. The only thing keeping me from eliminating the problem is fear. I'm completely lost. Could anyone please offer me some advice?