I'm Completely Lost...

[Guest confused idiot]

"You also forget, that there is still the first cause deist god, a creator doesn't have to be theistic. Diest god would not give 2 fucks about us, works for evolution, and evolution works for god."

 

Talking about the deist God, if he/it doesn't give a shit, why did he create us in the first place?

 

"Also if we don't know something we still can't say ohh god did. that is called god of the gaps, and its also called a arguement from ignorance"

 

So what did? Specifically, what could have? In a way that a non-scientific dumbass like myself could understand?

 

"You like circular reasoning don't you."

 

Do I like it? No. Do I think like that a lot? Yeah.

 

"We don't know how life started exactly, abiogenesis correct me if I am wrong is only on of many debated ideas."

 

Ok, there's God, then there's abiogenesis. What else? What are the other "many debated" ideas?

[Guest Valk0010]

"You also forget, that there is still the first cause deist god, a creator doesn't have to be theistic. Diest god would not give 2 fucks about us, works for evolution, and evolution works for god."

 

Talking about the deist God, if he/it doesn't give a shit, why did he create us in the first place?

 

"Also if we don't know something we still can't say ohh god did. that is called god of the gaps, and its also called a arguement from ignorance"

 

So what did? Specifically, what could have? In a way that a non-scientific dumbass like myself could understand?

 

"You like circular reasoning don't you."

 

Do I like it? No. Do I think like that a lot? Yeah.

 

"We don't know how life started exactly, abiogenesis correct me if I am wrong is only on of many debated ideas."

 

Ok, there's God, then there's abiogenesis. What else? What are the other "many debated" ideas?

 

Sometimes we don't know things yet. The arguement from ignorance is a logic fallacy saying we don't know such and such, so it has to be god in this instant. Well no, all other possibilities should be explored before a conclusion is made.

 

From wiki on the arguement from ignorance

Argument from ignorance

Irving Copi writes that:

The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proven false, or that it is false because it has not been proven true.[...] A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence. (Copi 1953)

The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:

Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen (often opposite) hypothesis is therefore considered likely or proven.

Something is currently unexplained, or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) considered true, and the opposite position is considered likely.

To avoid this fallacy, the onus is on thorough investigation for information about the subject(s) being considered or hypothesized about.

 

A good article I found on the different theories

one example

 

deism is essentially arguing that god is just a primal first cause that started everything

 

it was a prequel to atheism

 

Why he created us its unknown by the nature of the concept.

[Guest confused idiot]

But it still doesn't make sense.

[Guest Valk0010]

But it still doesn't make sense.

Could you be more specific

[Guest confused idiot]

But it still doesn't make sense.

Could you be more specific

 

Just the whole "We don't know how it started but it wasn't god" argument. I'm not saying anybody knows how it all started, but that still doesn't change the fact that... well... Seriously, what the hell else could have done it? I don't get it. I try to, but I don't. Not what did, but what could have.

[Guest Valk0010]

But it still doesn't make sense.

Could you be more specific

 

Just the whole "We don't know how it started but it wasn't god" argument. I'm not saying anybody knows how it all started, but that still doesn't change the fact that... well... Seriously, what the hell else could have done it? I don't get it. I try to, but I don't. Not what did, but what could have.

My guess, based off all the stuff I haved learned about christianity and theism, is that if there is a god involved he is not theistic.

 

God could have easily did it, I can't say. But I can't have faith that he did.

 

Based off of what I have seen, I can't say what started the creation of this world. I can't say god, and i can't say no god, for certainity.

 

If I find someday there is positive evidence to point to a god at the creation of the universe(not just a lack of evidence). then I will change from agnosticism.

 

As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown.

[Guest confused idiot]

But it still doesn't make sense.

Could you be more specific

 

Just the whole "We don't know how it started but it wasn't god" argument. I'm not saying anybody knows how it all started, but that still doesn't change the fact that... well... Seriously, what the hell else could have done it? I don't get it. I try to, but I don't. Not what did, but what could have.

My guess, based off all the stuff I haved learned about christianity and theism, is that if there is a god involved he is not theistic.

 

God could have easily did it, I can't say. But I can't have faith that he did.

 

Based off of what I have seen, I can't say what started the creation of this world. I can't say god, and i can't say no god, for certainity.

 

If I find someday there is positive evidence to point to a god at the creation of the universe(not just a lack of evidence). then I will change from agnosticism.

 

As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown.

 

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

[Guest Valk0010]

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

This is where your own personal investigation becomes important.

 

In my opinion, if something is true, you shouldn't need faith.

[Guest confused idiot]

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

This is where your own personal investigation becomes important.

 

In my opinion, if something is true, you shouldn't need faith.

 

Maybe. This is not generally how Christians think, but here's how I look at it. You shouldn't need faith that God is real. That should be something you just know. IMO, faith should come into play when it comes to his promises, not his existence. Maybe that's not even biblical, I don't know.

[Guest Valk0010]

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

This is where your own personal investigation becomes important.

 

In my opinion, if something is true, you shouldn't need faith.

 

Maybe. This is not generally how Christians think, but here's how I look at it. You shouldn't need faith that God is real. That should be something you just know. IMO, faith should come into play when it comes to his promises, not his existence. Maybe that's not even biblical, I don't know.

Mebbe, never thought of that, but isn't true, faith is, trust in things unseen

[Guest confused idiot]

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

This is where your own personal investigation becomes important.

 

In my opinion, if something is true, you shouldn't need faith.

 

Maybe. This is not generally how Christians think, but here's how I look at it. You shouldn't need faith that God is real. That should be something you just know. IMO, faith should come into play when it comes to his promises, not his existence. Maybe that's not even biblical, I don't know.

Mebbe, never thought of that, but isn't true, faith is, trust in things unseen

 

Yeah.

[Guest Valk0010]

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

This is where your own personal investigation becomes important.

 

In my opinion, if something is true, you shouldn't need faith.

 

Maybe. This is not generally how Christians think, but here's how I look at it. You shouldn't need faith that God is real. That should be something you just know. IMO, faith should come into play when it comes to his promises, not his existence. Maybe that's not even biblical, I don't know.

Mebbe, never thought of that, but isn't true, faith is, trust in things unseen

 

Yeah.

That would also count for existence.

 

I took a anthropology of religion class and I learned a few things for you to chew on.

 

Faith is a way to preserve the culturally relative explanation of things.(keep people believing)

 

Hell is a way to keep people believing.

 

Religion is a explanation of the unexplainable in a culturally relative way.

 

Creation myths explain things like why bad things happen to bad people and the like.

[Guest confused idiot]

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

This is where your own personal investigation becomes important.

 

In my opinion, if something is true, you shouldn't need faith.

 

Maybe. This is not generally how Christians think, but here's how I look at it. You shouldn't need faith that God is real. That should be something you just know. IMO, faith should come into play when it comes to his promises, not his existence. Maybe that's not even biblical, I don't know.

Mebbe, never thought of that, but isn't true, faith is, trust in things unseen

 

Yeah.

That would also count for existence.

 

I took a anthropology of religion class and I learned a few things for you to chew on.

 

Faith is a way to preserve the culturally relative explanation of things.(keep people believing)

 

Hell is a way to keep people believing.

 

Religion is a explanation of the unexplainable in a culturally relative way.

 

Creation myths explain things like why bad things happen to bad people and the like.

 

Hmm. Good points.

[Guest Valk0010]

You need to change your screenname

 

go to "edit my profile"

 

find "settings"

 

Click on "change display name"

 

Change it to what you want

 

click save "changes"

 

your no idiot

[Crazy Donna]

Confused once you figure out how to stop believing in god even though you know we came from somewhere your problem will be solved.

 

Is that even possible?

 

Alright, I don't want to interupt this debate here, and I'll shut up with my pointless venting soon, but I gotta ask something. Overcoming religious indoctrination ain't an overnight thing, and it ain't easy, obviously. But what are some effective ways to numb the mental pain that it all brings? Seriously, I have this shit on my mind 24/7, and even doing stuff doesn't keep my mind off of it as well as it used to. Honestly, religion as I know it makes me want to get drunk and get high, just to numb myself from it. And that's coming from a guy who has never had any desire whatsoever to drink or do drugs. And now, because of all this Jesus stuff, it makes me WANT to throw it all away and get wasted. Something is wrong with this picture.

Man, I know how you feel.

 

Sure, get shitfaced. Have a night off. Reward yourself for enduring what you have endured so far, by getting shitfaced and having a 'night off' from thinking. You deserve it.

 

I'd see if I could get a counsellor, not a christian one, and talk this out. That will help, because that helps you to organise your thoughts, and it's also cathartic.

 

Self talk more positive things. WHenever you find yourself thinking about god, replace it with a positive message about you. This takes practice, but it will become a habit.

 

You have a lot of brainwashing you need to undo, and it's hard work. But you can get through this. ANyone can get through anything if they know it isn't forever, and this won't be forever.

 

That almost makes it seem as if I'm trying to hide from the truth. If God is not real, why should I have to try so hard to get away from the concept?

 

I meant you should have a 'night off' from thinking about it, not running away from god, who is not real anyway. It's the stress I think you need to have a rest from.

 

If I was worried irrationally about something, which I knew was irrational, (just like people are irrationally afraid of heights, even though they might be looking through a window of a building and be completely safe in reality) but still had that emotional fear response, it would be pretty overwhelming, and I'd probably want some temporary relief. In this sense, getting shitfaced and having a 'night off' would be beneficial. You could even do it without the 'getting shitfaced' part . Immerse yourself in something. Play a computer game, or go see a movie, or do something that distracts you. Your brain, your emotions, and your central nervous system probably need a break.

 

I think you should read Gavin De Becker's The Gift of Fear. It's all about how anxiety is just manufactured fear, and how real fear is actually very empowering. I think a lot of what you are dealing with is the irrational anxiety that there might be a hell waiting for you if you dare to believe that there is no god. It is irrational because there is no evidence for it. Just like being afraid of pictures of spiders or snakes is irrational (because it's a picture, not the real thing, and can not harm you) so is being afraid of something there is no evidence for. Remind yourself that anxiety is manufactured fear, not real fear. Tell yourself that the emotion is fake, it's an overreaction.

 

You are doing fantastically well. The fact that you have got this far is amazing. You can do it. You're smart, you have an inquiring mind, and you have the drive to want to achieve things as soon as possible. I am sure that recovering from religious indoctrination is just ONE thing you can achieve with a personality like yours. Seriously, you've come this far, you can do anything. So hang in there. It'll get easier.

[Phanta]

As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown.

 

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

 

That resonates with me as well, Valk. That's where I landed some 15 years ago in a fit of anxiety, and here I be still, in agnosticism. I have faith that if there is a personal, loving God, that God will find a way around my triggers and stress and agony to let me know what it is I need to know to stay on the right path. If there isn't a personal, loving God, then I have lived my life with integrity and passion, and passed love along to others, and that isn't a half-bad life to have lived.

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

EDIT: Shit, sorry for the triple post. My internet is messed up right now.

 

You need to change your screenname

 

go to "edit my profile"

 

find "settings"

 

Click on "change display name"

 

Change it to what you want

 

click save "changes"

 

your no idiot

 

When I go there, there's no option to change display name. Maybe that's for supporting members only?

 

Confused once you figure out how to stop believing in god even though you know we came from somewhere your problem will be solved.

 

Is that even possible?

 

Alright, I don't want to interupt this debate here, and I'll shut up with my pointless venting soon, but I gotta ask something. Overcoming religious indoctrination ain't an overnight thing, and it ain't easy, obviously. But what are some effective ways to numb the mental pain that it all brings? Seriously, I have this shit on my mind 24/7, and even doing stuff doesn't keep my mind off of it as well as it used to. Honestly, religion as I know it makes me want to get drunk and get high, just to numb myself from it. And that's coming from a guy who has never had any desire whatsoever to drink or do drugs. And now, because of all this Jesus stuff, it makes me WANT to throw it all away and get wasted. Something is wrong with this picture.

Man, I know how you feel.

 

Sure, get shitfaced. Have a night off. Reward yourself for enduring what you have endured so far, by getting shitfaced and having a 'night off' from thinking. You deserve it.

 

I'd see if I could get a counsellor, not a christian one, and talk this out. That will help, because that helps you to organise your thoughts, and it's also cathartic.

 

Self talk more positive things. WHenever you find yourself thinking about god, replace it with a positive message about you. This takes practice, but it will become a habit.

 

You have a lot of brainwashing you need to undo, and it's hard work. But you can get through this. ANyone can get through anything if they know it isn't forever, and this won't be forever.

 

That almost makes it seem as if I'm trying to hide from the truth. If God is not real, why should I have to try so hard to get away from the concept?

 

I meant you should have a 'night off' from thinking about it, not running away from god, who is not real anyway. It's the stress I think you need to have a rest from.

 

If I was worried irrationally about something, which I knew was irrational, (just like people are irrationally afraid of heights, even though they might be looking through a window of a building and be completely safe in reality) but still had that emotional fear response, it would be pretty overwhelming, and I'd probably want some temporary relief. In this sense, getting shitfaced and having a 'night off' would be beneficial. You could even do it without the 'getting shitfaced' part . Immerse yourself in something. Play a computer game, or go see a movie, or do something that distracts you. Your brain, your emotions, and your central nervous system probably need a break.

 

I think you should read Gavin De Becker's The Gift of Fear. It's all about how anxiety is just manufactured fear, and how real fear is actually very empowering. I think a lot of what you are dealing with is the irrational anxiety that there might be a hell waiting for you if you dare to believe that there is no god. It is irrational because there is no evidence for it. Just like being afraid of pictures of spiders or snakes is irrational (because it's a picture, not the real thing, and can not harm you) so is being afraid of something there is no evidence for. Remind yourself that anxiety is manufactured fear, not real fear. Tell yourself that the emotion is fake, it's an overreaction.

 

You are doing fantastically well. The fact that you have got this far is amazing. You can do it. You're smart, you have an inquiring mind, and you have the drive to want to achieve things as soon as possible. I am sure that recovering from religious indoctrination is just ONE thing you can achieve with a personality like yours. Seriously, you've come this far, you can do anything. So hang in there. It'll get easier.

 

Stress never helps a thing.

 

As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown.

 

Hmm. I don't know if I agree or not, but I'll just say this. That last line in your post,

 

"As I see it, the evidence points to no particular idea, god or no god. it points to the unknown."

 

that stuck out to me. I like the way you put that.

 

That resonates with me as well, Valk. That's where I landed some 15 years ago in a fit of anxiety, and here I be still, in agnosticism. I have faith that if there is a personal, loving God, that God will find a way around my triggers and stress and agony to let me know what it is I need to know to stay on the right path. If there isn't a personal, loving God, then I have lived my life with integrity and passion, and passed love along to others, and that isn't a half-bad life to have lived.

 

Phanta

 

I guess that's all anybody can do.

[wonder]

confused your problem is the bible. the bible is where you come up with all your arguments. so we need to figure out a convincing way to dispel the bible.

 

another thing, you ask if god didnt create everything, then who did. well i say, the great flying lobster (with a cape) created everything thats who. we dont know goddidit and we dont know the great flying lobster did it either. hell neither one is gonna answer you. let that sink in for a minute.

[Antlerman]

EDIT: Shit, sorry for the triple post. My internet is messed up right now.

fixed

[Guest confused idiot]

confused your problem is the bible. the bible is where you come up with all your arguments. so we need to figure out a convincing way to dispel the bible.

 

another thing, you ask if god didnt create everything, then who did. well i say, the great flying lobster (with a cape) created everything thats who. we dont know goddidit and we dont know the great flying lobster did it either. hell neither one is gonna answer you. let that sink in for a minute.

 

Ok, the only reason I use the word god when saying "Goddidit" is because that's just all I know to call him/it. My only point is, how could it not be from a living thing higher and more pwoerful than us? Something outside of time?

[RationalOkie]

Regardless how you look at it, an invisible magic wizard did NOT have any part in it (creation). If you are having trouble interpreting the world without the bible then go read Bart Ehrman - "Jesus Interrupted". It helped me a great deal.

[VoiceOnWater]

wonder, I'll let you guys handle that angle then. Just make sure you don't send him backwards, or keep him stuck in parallel loops.

 

CI, you need to monitor that yourself too, that loop thinking. It takes many forms. Recognize pattern.

I'm trying to help you out of the whirling, confusion tornado completely, so you can stand on solid ground.

Look at that sketch/diagram I posted in the Creative Works forum. It's on top, since I'm not about to respond to Shyone. It's okay if he doesn't get it. What you should see there is a swinging pendulum, displaying a satanist construct on one extreme end and a christian construct on the other. The "you are here" markers at the top suggest that you can observe the pendulum from outside it, giving you access to other constructs.

You might also replace the satanist construct with any construct in opposition to or in dichotomy with christianity, but you're still constrained to a swinging pendulum by doing that, no matter what you replace it with.

[wonder]

wonder, I'll let you guys handle that angle then. Just make sure you don't send him backwards, or keep him stuck in parallel loops.

=============================================================

thank you voiceonwater. he's already going in parallell loops. nothing i say will make it any worse.

[wonder]

confused said: the only reason I use the word god when saying "Goddidit" is because that's just all I know to call him/it. My only point is, how could it not be from a living thing higher and more pwoerful than us? Something outside of time?

=========================================================================================================

 

even though you didnt really mean to use the word "god", you still believe in god because of the bible (which is the problem). and my point is maybe we did come from a living thing higher and more powerful than us, something outside of time. and maybe that something is the great flying lobster (with a cape), or maybe its the alien creature from a million light years away.

 

you have no evidence the lobster or the alien did it. and you have no evidence goddidit. so either one of them could have created us. ohhhh, but wait a minute. you might say, "but the bible is my evidence of god doing it.

it said god created everything." which is why i say the bible is your problem and we need to convincingly dispel it. you do seem to know the bible pretty well. but the bible is not evidence.

 

youre kinda proud of your knowledge of the bible arent you? that pride is contributing to your problem. because you are reluctant to let it go. am i right.

[Guest confused idiot]

wonder, I'll let you guys handle that angle then. Just make sure you don't send him backwards, or keep him stuck in parallel loops.

 

CI, you need to monitor that yourself too, that loop thinking. It takes many forms. Recognize pattern.

I'm trying to help you out of the whirling, confusion tornado completely, so you can stand on solid ground.

Look at that sketch/diagram I posted in the Creative Works forum. It's on top, since I'm not about to respond to Shyone. It's okay if he doesn't get it. What you should see there is a swinging pendulum, displaying a satanist construct on one extreme end and a christian construct on the other. The "you are here" markers at the top suggest that you can observe the pendulum from outside it, giving you access to other constructs.

You might also replace the satanist construct with any construct in opposition to or in dichotomy with christianity, but you're still constrained to a swinging pendulum by doing that, no matter what you replace it with.

 

It's not an easy thing to do.

 

 

confused said: the only reason I use the word god when saying "Goddidit" is because that's just all I know to call him/it. My only point is, how could it not be from a living thing higher and more pwoerful than us? Something outside of time?

=========================================================================================================

 

even though you didnt really mean to use the word "god", you still believe in god because of the bible (which is the problem). and my point is maybe we did come from a living thing higher and more powerful than us, something outside of time. and maybe that something is the great flying lobster (with a cape), or maybe its the alien creature from a million light years away.

 

you have no evidence the lobster or the alien did it. and you have no evidence goddidit. so either one of them could have created us. ohhhh, but wait a minute. you might say, "but the bible is my evidence of god doing it.

it said god created everything." which is why i say the bible is your problem and we need to convincingly dispel it. you do seem to know the bible pretty well. but the bible is not evidence.

 

youre kinda proud of your knowledge of the bible arent you? that pride is contributing to your problem. because you are reluctant to let it go. am i right.

 

"you still believe in god because of the bible (which is the problem)"

 

No, not really. I was raised to believe that the Bible is true, which makes me biased to a certain extent. But that has nothing to do with my belief in God. I don't believe in a God because the Bible says it, but more like I believe in the Bible because I believe in God, and also because I was taught it was true.

"you might say, "but the bible is my evidence of god doing it. it said god created everything."

 

That's not my evidence. Nature, the universe, this planet, the human body, all of these things are my "evidence" of a God.

 

"youre kinda proud of your knowledge of the bible arent you? that pride is contributing to your problem. because you are reluctant to let it go. am i right."

 

Not really, no. I don't consider myself as knowing the Bible well. I know what I've learned, that's about it. There's a hell of a lot more that I don't know than what I do.