Why I Am No Longer A Xian

[bdp]

This "spoof" is very close to reality.

 

The best ones always are; I don't know, just something about him is setting off my Spidey sense. Something us old-timers honed when we had legions of spoofs in and out of here all the time.

[blackpudd1n]

This "spoof" is very close to reality.

 

The best ones always are; I don't know, just something about him is setting off my Spidey sense. Something us old-timers honed when we had legions of spoofs in and out of here all the time.

 

It's the inconsistency in his tone of writing I'm picking up, BPD. I'll go back through and find some examples.

[blackpudd1n]

Below are some examples from the last few pages. At times his tone is condescending, at others down right rude, like when he was addressing Margee, and then at other times, like when he addressed Thumbelina, he went all "holier than thou" on us. And then he just goes strange, mocking board members' profile pictures

 

One of the most telling indicators, for me, was when I baited him with my comment about all the religious experiences I'd had, and then got diagnosed with bipolar. "Hope you're feeling better" is not a common Christian response. Not only that, but he didn't offer up any bible verses, that I could see, nor really use the bible in any which way to try and back up his claims. Then he tells Margee to get lost- like, what the? And where are the offers of prayers for our eternally damned souls? He doesn't even really talk "Christianese"- where are all his Christian catch phrases?

 

The guys faking it. I'm with BPD on this one- spoof.

 

That would be putting too strongly. But it is somewhat correct. You can actually forget about the Old Testament and just stick to the New. You will go further towards understanding God

 

A key point from this 2000 year old book (and remaining THE best seller all thru 2000 years! ) is that God is Love. ( 1John 4:16 ) This idea turns out to be the key notion in understanding God.

 

No. Jesus is the only way to God. Without Jesus Christ, people are lost.

 

I have some sympathy for his ideas. But I would NOT throw away the Old Testament.

 

Is it your theory that the NT was created by the Roman empire?? That is a novel idea, I must say

 

 

What is mean is that you'd be lost in terms of having direct experience with God.

 

From what I read so far from this board, nobody on this board had a direct, personal experience with God. Yes, you attended some churches. You nodded to some meaningless doctrines. And you used to consider yourself Christians, etc. You may have even earnestly studied the Bible. But NONE of you can say you had direct, personal experience with God. Because if you did, you will not remain the same person. You would be totally in love with the most wonderful person there is. It is my contention that such a direct, personal experience is only possible thru faith in Jesus Christ. Knowing what I know now, I woujld not even waste my time with other religions.

 

But that is just me.

 

Hey Thumbelina,

 

Greetings in Christ.

 

I heard good things about you from our atheist friends. Thanks for ministering here.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

Well, you had my answer on your testimony.

 

Take your sarcasm and get lost.

 

 

Or you can be serious and write another testimony of your life. Then we can talk.

 

 

Hope you are doing better.

 

I like that passion.

 

That is such a great writing I really enjoyed it even though I do not fully agree. I gotta read this post over and over and ponder your points.

 

Thanks !!!

 

When it comes to false superstitious and religious beliefs, Tarico claims "it doesn't take very many false assumptions to send us on a long goose chase." To illustrate this she tells us about the mental world of a paranoid schizophrenic. To such a person the perceived persecution by others sounds real. "You can sit, as a psychiatrist, with a diagnostic manual next to you, and think: as bizarre as it sounds, the CIA really is bugging this guy. The arguments are tight, the logic persuasive, the evidence organized into neat files. All that is needed to build such an impressive house of illusion is a clear, well-organized mind and a few false assumptions. Paranoid individuals can be very credible." This is what Christians do, and this is why it's hard to shake the Evangelical faith, in her informed opinion.

 

 

An interesting point to ponder on.

Unfortunately this is a pretty good description of a number of Christian. And it is a really good description. A lot of people derive some reward from going to church. They may like to hang with clean cut people ( my case when I was young ), they may like to be 'upstanding' church going citizens, they may even see it as a way to stay out of troubles. But when it comes to believing the claims of Christianity, they find it harder. They grapple with basic notions, make rationalizations, etc. But given their scientific knowledge and their common sense, the Bible is simply NOT easy to swallow. Hence begins 'cognitive dissonance'

 

When I became born again, one of the first things I realized is that there is a huge difference between 'being a Christian' and 'being a believer'. After the supernatural experience of being born again, I was in total shock. I slowly had to grapple with the fact that I must remake all my metaphysical assumptions. God does exists! It was a shocking realization. Then I became a 'believer'. By the way, I was not even attending a church at the time. But how do I explain what I experienced with my intellect? Well, my first step was Zecharia Sitchin's theory of the Bible. Well science fiction seems to be a good place to start! LOL Needless to say, it was a long growth period as a Christian!

 

But I must say, before I became born again, I can really sympathize with what you wrote here. To me the question is, are you a Christian? Or are you a BELIEVER?

 

I guess this kind of analysis is applicable to all sorts of area - politics, finance, even some fields of science ( global warming anyone?? )

 

But occasionally a paranoid individual is right. ( I am thinking of the movie Terminator here. LOL ) No, seriously sometimes a paranoid person is right. Or as Andrew Grove used to put it, 'Only paranoids survive!!' LOL

 

Actually you are kinda right. I should not write too much here. I should have known from your icon!!! I mean, who has icon like that? You must be a homicidal maniac!

[JayL]

Below are some examples from the last few pages. At times his tone is condescending, at others down right rude, like when he was addressing Margee, and then at other times, like when he addressed Thumbelina, he went all "holier than thou" on us. And then he just goes strange, mocking board members' profile pictures

 

One of the most telling indicators, for me, was when I baited him with my comment about all the religious experiences I'd had, and then got diagnosed with bipolar. "Hope you're feeling better" is not a common Christian response. Not only that, but he didn't offer up any bible verses, that I could see, nor really use the bible in any which way to try and back up his claims. Then he tells Margee to get lost- like, what the? And where are the offers of prayers for our eternally damned souls? He doesn't even really talk "Christianese"- where are all his Christian catch phrases?

 

The guys faking it. I'm with BPD on this one- spoof.

 

That would be putting too strongly. But it is somewhat correct. You can actually forget about the Old Testament and just stick to the New. You will go further towards understanding God

 

A key point from this 2000 year old book (and remaining THE best seller all thru 2000 years! ) is that God is Love. ( 1John 4:16 ) This idea turns out to be the key notion in understanding God.

 

No. Jesus is the only way to God. Without Jesus Christ, people are lost.

 

I have some sympathy for his ideas. But I would NOT throw away the Old Testament.

 

Is it your theory that the NT was created by the Roman empire?? That is a novel idea, I must say

 

 

What is mean is that you'd be lost in terms of having direct experience with God.

 

From what I read so far from this board, nobody on this board had a direct, personal experience with God. Yes, you attended some churches. You nodded to some meaningless doctrines. And you used to consider yourself Christians, etc. You may have even earnestly studied the Bible. But NONE of you can say you had direct, personal experience with God. Because if you did, you will not remain the same person. You would be totally in love with the most wonderful person there is. It is my contention that such a direct, personal experience is only possible thru faith in Jesus Christ. Knowing what I know now, I woujld not even waste my time with other religions.

 

But that is just me.

 

Hey Thumbelina,

 

Greetings in Christ.

 

I heard good things about you from our atheist friends. Thanks for ministering here.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

Well, you had my answer on your testimony.

 

Take your sarcasm and get lost.

 

 

Or you can be serious and write another testimony of your life. Then we can talk.

 

 

Hope you are doing better.

 

I like that passion.

 

That is such a great writing I really enjoyed it even though I do not fully agree. I gotta read this post over and over and ponder your points.

 

Thanks !!!

 

When it comes to false superstitious and religious beliefs, Tarico claims "it doesn't take very many false assumptions to send us on a long goose chase." To illustrate this she tells us about the mental world of a paranoid schizophrenic. To such a person the perceived persecution by others sounds real. "You can sit, as a psychiatrist, with a diagnostic manual next to you, and think: as bizarre as it sounds, the CIA really is bugging this guy. The arguments are tight, the logic persuasive, the evidence organized into neat files. All that is needed to build such an impressive house of illusion is a clear, well-organized mind and a few false assumptions. Paranoid individuals can be very credible." This is what Christians do, and this is why it's hard to shake the Evangelical faith, in her informed opinion.

 

 

An interesting point to ponder on.

Unfortunately this is a pretty good description of a number of Christian. And it is a really good description. A lot of people derive some reward from going to church. They may like to hang with clean cut people ( my case when I was young ), they may like to be 'upstanding' church going citizens, they may even see it as a way to stay out of troubles. But when it comes to believing the claims of Christianity, they find it harder. They grapple with basic notions, make rationalizations, etc. But given their scientific knowledge and their common sense, the Bible is simply NOT easy to swallow. Hence begins 'cognitive dissonance'

 

When I became born again, one of the first things I realized is that there is a huge difference between 'being a Christian' and 'being a believer'. After the supernatural experience of being born again, I was in total shock. I slowly had to grapple with the fact that I must remake all my metaphysical assumptions. God does exists! It was a shocking realization. Then I became a 'believer'. By the way, I was not even attending a church at the time. But how do I explain what I experienced with my intellect? Well, my first step was Zecharia Sitchin's theory of the Bible. Well science fiction seems to be a good place to start! LOL Needless to say, it was a long growth period as a Christian!

 

But I must say, before I became born again, I can really sympathize with what you wrote here. To me the question is, are you a Christian? Or are you a BELIEVER?

 

I guess this kind of analysis is applicable to all sorts of area - politics, finance, even some fields of science ( global warming anyone?? )

 

But occasionally a paranoid individual is right. ( I am thinking of the movie Terminator here. LOL ) No, seriously sometimes a paranoid person is right. Or as Andrew Grove used to put it, 'Only paranoids survive!!' LOL

 

Actually you are kinda right. I should not write too much here. I should have known from your icon!!! I mean, who has icon like that? You must be a homicidal maniac!

 

 

 

Wow. Who wrote those? They are so well written, so right on to the point, and so interesting!

[bornagainathiest]

 

Jingle! Jingle!

 

Those aren't Xmas bells, they're our very own fool's... JayL!

 

BAA.

[Antlerman]

In re-reading that post JayL where you were claiming no one here has had direct experience of God, I'm wondering if you read the link I provided you. I may have missed your response, but I'm not hearing much in way of direct response to me. Wondering why that is.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

@ Notblinded

 

 

 

I wanted to stop by and chat before but the Par lion was buggin' out. Maybe he ate too much Christian flesh? Shhh, let's be quiet and maybe he won't notice our chats, maybe he got some fiber this week and is better

 

I do not dismiss Aman's and others' experiences, I just disagree with the source.

Considering there's only one God, then your disagreement is with that one Source.

 

You know Christianity tends to teach that there are powerful evil beings out there that humans will worship if they don't know scripture. There's one God but Satan appears as an angel of light.

 

I choose not to expound at this time because Aman is CLOSED to the bible

 

 

I'm not closed to the Bible. I'm closed to closed-mindedness, such as you demonstrate. I find great value in the Bible.

 

Maybe you do not utterly reject the bible (it has some good philosophies in there) but you do reject certain beliefs that Christians hold. You call it closed-mindedness I say it's keeping the baby and throwing out the bathwater.

 

 

I don't want to be a bible thumper as I see he is passionate about his beliefs.

 

I'm not married to my beliefs. I passionate about what I experience, the fruits it bears in my life.

 

So you do have an open mind?

 

I may get back to this thread when I have put some more thought into what I want to say, I am not tactful so I keep quiet.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

What sort of convoluted things you're talking about here, man?

[Antlerman]

I do not dismiss Aman's and others' experiences, I just disagree with the source.

Considering there's only one God, then your disagreement is with that one Source.

 

You know Christianity tends to teach that there are powerful evil beings out there that humans will worship if they don't know scripture. There's one God but Satan appears as an angel of light.

You realize that's a more than lame response? By their fruits you shall know them. An evil tree cannot bear good fruit. You only call God the devil because "He" defies how you believe. You are kicking against the pricks.

 

I can assure you this is no dark disguise, but radiant light that you hide yourself from. You once knew it before you became indoctrinated. You have ears but refuse to see - out of your own fear. Fear cannot see God. You are full of fear. I smell it thousands of miles away. How many times have I pointed this out?

 

I choose not to expound at this time because Aman is CLOSED to the bible

 

 

I'm not closed to the Bible. I'm closed to closed-mindedness, such as you demonstrate. I find great value in the Bible.

 

Maybe you do not utterly reject the bible (it has some good philosophies in there) but you do reject certain beliefs that Christians hold. You call it closed-mindedness I say it's keeping the baby and throwing out the bathwater.

Hey wait, I'm the one finding the baby in the bathwater. You however, you claim the baby and the bathwater are inseparable.

 

Just for grins, try to hear with your ears, instead of what you tell yourself what you think is truth.

 

I don't want to be a bible thumper as I see he is passionate about his beliefs.

 

I'm not married to my beliefs. I passionate about what I experience, the fruits it bears in my life.

 

So you do have an open mind?

Of course. If I didn't I'd still be preaching what you are!

 

I may get back to this thread when I have put some more thought into what I want to say, I am not tactful so I keep quiet.

Don't just be tactful, be thoughtful.

[agnosticator]

 

 

What sort of convoluted things you're talking about here, man?

 

¿No entiende usted Inglés?

 

If you don't understand Spanish, how about Italian?

 

Non si capisce l'inglese? Sei stupido?

[Antlerman]

I do not dismiss Aman's and others' experiences, I just disagree with the source.

Considering there's only one God, then your disagreement is with that one Source.

 

You know Christianity tends to teach that there are powerful evil beings out there that humans will worship if they don't know scripture. There's one God but Satan appears as an angel of light.

"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?"

 

 

Just thought I'd add this which popped into mind for you. Your verse about the Devil appearing as an angel of light has nothing to do with actual spiritual transformation. You use it to keep your mind closed, and therefore are like those Pharisees who concluded Jesus cast out demons by the devil. It was their rationality talking, trying to make God fit their theology. Exactly identical to what you are doing.

 

Peace.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

What sort of convoluted things you're talking about here, man?

 

¿No entiende usted Inglés?

 

If you don't understand Spanish, how about Italian?

 

Non si capisce l'inglese? Sei stupido?

 

Agi, why are you bothering me? I was sort of teasing mischief personified (Living life). Methinks you want that title for yourself?

[Thumbelina]

I do not dismiss Aman's and others' experiences, I just disagree with the source.

Considering there's only one God, then your disagreement is with that one Source.

 

You know Christianity tends to teach that there are powerful evil beings out there that humans will worship if they don't know scripture. There's one God but Satan appears as an angel of light.

"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?"

 

 

Just thought I'd add this which popped into mind for you. Your verse about the Devil appearing as an angel of light has nothing to do with actual spiritual transformation. You use it to keep your mind closed, and therefore are like those Pharisees who concluded Jesus cast out demons by the devil. It was their rationality talking, trying to make God fit their theology. Exactly identical to what you are doing.

 

Peace.

 

 

The verse I was referring to has to do with deception, MOST people were and WILL be deceived by the devil and his imps; see?: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.:" Revelation 12:9

 

 

How does one deceive others? Will the devil come at people and say "I am the devil, I am eeeevil, serve me, bwahahaha!!!"?

 

 

Only those who submit to God wholeheartedly will escape the overmastering delusion at the end of time.: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8

 

Christians follow Christ and Christ said that the signs for the last days will be demons or people who obey them will be performing "miracles" and this will fool people EXCEPT His elect: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24

 

The bible is consistent in these teachings: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" 1Timothy 4:1

 

Devils can make people feel all ooey gooey and squishy in order to gain their trust, but really, it's the ol' bait and switch, it's the Jekyll and Hyde, their TRUE characters always come out eventually.

 

 

Aman, your Matthew 12 text needs to be looked at within the frame of the ENTIRE scripture, in other words, one needs to look at the teachings thematically as well as contextually in order to get the big picture.

 

So, without looking at the bible thematically, what says you about this text?: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:22 ,23

 

Quick story, I had mentioned about my encounters with a young pastor to you before. He was in seminary, I think he took a break for awhile though to earn money for school. Anyway, I wanted to discuss the bible with him and I was bothering him, I was like dude, you know you only keep 9 commandments, right?and ... . He admitted that he had no biblical basis for some of the traditions he follows. After he moved away and went back to seminary he called me and was telling me that he cast some demon out of a guy in a wheelchair. In my head, I was rolling my eyes and the texts from Matthew 7:22,23 came to mind. I mean, he admitted that his traditions are not based on sola scriptura so therefore he is guilty of being disobedient. I was thinking, 'Pffft, he did not cast out anything, it was all in his head or if something did happen, those devils were pretending to be scared of him just so he can feel secure in his disobedience/iniquity/lawlessness/commandment-breaking.'

 

I said that to say this, the devils will PRETEND to be subject to disobedient believers in order to trick the believer into thinking they have God's approval.

 

Here's the text I was alluding to:

 

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14

 

 

........

 

 

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10 <--- What was Satan doing in the context of this verse, was he not pretending to be generous?

 

 

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8 <-- Angels PRETEND to preach a gospel/good news.

[Mudhoney]

To the OP: I really liked the parable.

 

To Thumbelina: I'm a new addition here at ex-c and I've been reading through some of your replies to various posts. I have a few observations. You seem, at times, to be two different people, like maybe a husband and wife tag-teaming? If not, you seem to be somewhat scattered in your thoughts and change personality on different occasions. I wonder about your mental state and stability.

 

You insist on quoting bible verses even though ex-c's do not believe the bible is the word of god. I can prove to you that it is NOT the word of god but you CANNOT prove that it is. I will not list the many errors in the bible and the historical fictions passed off as fact by believers, I'm sure that you've been given plenty of those here at this site, but I would like to point out that it makes you look foolish.

 

I also wonder why you are even here in the first place. Are you hoping to win someone back to xtianity, a totally filthy, delusional, put-my-mind-in-the-toilet-and-flush religion? Do you realize that not only are your arguments tired and weak, but you insult the intelligence of the people here with your childish way of communicating?

[bornagainathiest]

To the OP: I really liked the parable.

 

To Thumbelina: I'm a new addition here at ex-c and I've been reading through some of your replies to various posts. I have a few observations. You seem, at times, to be two different people, like maybe a husband and wife tag-teaming? If not, you seem to be somewhat scattered in your thoughts and change personality on different occasions. I wonder about your mental state and stability.

 

You insist on quoting bible verses even though ex-c's do not believe the bible is the word of god. I can prove to you that it is NOT the word of god but you CANNOT prove that it is. I will not list the many errors in the bible and the historical fictions passed off as fact by believers, I'm sure that you've been given plenty of those here at this site, but I would like to point out that it makes you look foolish.

 

I also wonder why you are even here in the first place. Are you hoping to win someone back to xtianity, a totally filthy, delusional, put-my-mind-in-the-toilet-and-flush religion? Do you realize that not only are your arguments tired and weak, but you insult the intelligence of the people here with your childish way of communicating?

 

Sorry to rain on your parade MudHoney, but you can't prove to Thumbelina that the Bible is not the word of God.

 

For that result, you'd need an open mind where one doesn't exist.

 

The decision to accept anything as proof of anything is a matter of the will and personal choice, not of the quality or quantity of the proof/s.

 

Only where the proofs are capable of killing those in denial (e.g., I don't believe cyanide will kill me) will there be any kind of result. However, that result will not be that the person then comes to believe in the said proofs. No, the result will be that the person doing the denying will be dead. The looked for outcome (open-minded acceptance of reasonable proofs) can only come as a matter of wilful choice on that person's part. You cannot force that decision on them.

 

Thumbelina's mind is made up and dialog with her is what I'd call a H.U.F.WOT.

A Hopeless, Useless, Futile, Waste of Time.

 

Sorry again,

 

BAA.

[Antlerman]

"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?"

 

 

Just thought I'd add this which popped into mind for you. Your verse about the Devil appearing as an angel of light has nothing to do with actual spiritual transformation. You use it to keep your mind closed, and therefore are like those Pharisees who concluded Jesus cast out demons by the devil. It was their rationality talking, trying to make God fit their theology. Exactly identical to what you are doing.

 

Peace.

 

 

The verse I was referring to has to do with deception, MOST people were and WILL be deceived by the devil and his imps; see?: ...

 

 

How does one deceive others? Will the devil come at people and say "I am the devil, I am eeeevil, serve me, bwahahaha!!!"?

 

 

Only those who submit to God wholeheartedly will escape the overmastering delusion at the end of time.:...

 

Christians follow Christ and Christ said that the signs for the last days will be demons or people who obey them will be performing "miracles" and this will fool people EXCEPT His elect: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24

To be honest, I believe it is you who is deceived. You believe things without any knowledge of your heart, and as such you have no checks and balances, no inner witness. You judge and condemn others because they don't square with how you think. You judge not on any sort of spiritual discernment level at all. As such, you are deceived by others who tell you 'lo, the truth is here', and your actions and words in judging others is the fruit you bear as products of this path of following others you are taking. It is based on your own fear, and you manufacture such convoluted justifications as you just have in order to keep yourself from facing that Truth that stands alone outside any small-minded ideas in your head. You avoid it, citing the Bible as your justification. You deceive yourself and are left with little to no fruit. You are a bare tree dressed up with religious ornaments in place of living fruit.

 

I am not speaking of following teachers, being tricked by feats of magic or miracles into believing the doctrines of others - such as you are doing. I am speaking of first-hand, direct experience of the Divine within all of us, which when it opens within you will effect a genuine transformation that produces positive, lasting fruits of compassion, wisdom, and love. That is not, the Devil. "By their fruits you shall know them." "An evil tree cannot produce good fruit". You have overlooked this single fact, and instead did yet again precisely what the Pharisees did in saying Jesus cast out the devil with the devil - a house divided against itself. If it is deception as you say, than the devils house is divided and will fall. All your arguments overlook the fact that what is happening produces the fruits of genuine love, compassion, and wisdom. It is no path of destruction, but of transformation into Love. You are rejecting Love. You are deceived.

[Guest end3]

Per our ongoing internal/external debate K.......I had an insight. Christ was not conceived as a union of a man from this world to Mary, but that the He came forth, was "born", from the Holy Spirit and with no influence of a fallen, worldly man. Please ignore all the puns...everyone. So "the Christ", i.e. holiness, was delivered internally from Mary, but external to Mary as well, as the "Father" being the Holy Spirit....an external Source IMO. So when you say that the Spiritual comes from within us, yes, I think so. But you can also see how it is external as well as the Spirit conceives the Spirit within us from an external Source.....but comes to us from within....internally. So it would make sense that the Spiritual awareness is recognized from within.

 

Refutations are welcome

[Mudhoney]

To the OP: I really liked the parable.

 

To Thumbelina: I'm a new addition here at ex-c and I've been reading through some of your replies to various posts. I have a few observations. You seem, at times, to be two different people, like maybe a husband and wife tag-teaming? If not, you seem to be somewhat scattered in your thoughts and change personality on different occasions. I wonder about your mental state and stability.

 

You insist on quoting bible verses even though ex-c's do not believe the bible is the word of god. I can prove to you that it is NOT the word of god but you CANNOT prove that it is. I will not list the many errors in the bible and the historical fictions passed off as fact by believers, I'm sure that you've been given plenty of those here at this site, but I would like to point out that it makes you look foolish.

 

I also wonder why you are even here in the first place. Are you hoping to win someone back to xtianity, a totally filthy, delusional, put-my-mind-in-the-toilet-and-flush religion? Do you realize that not only are your arguments tired and weak, but you insult the intelligence of the people here with your childish way of communicating?

 

Sorry to rain on your parade MudHoney, but you can't prove to Thumbelina that the Bible is not the word of God.

 

For that result, you'd need an open mind where one doesn't exist.

 

The decision to accept anything as proof of anything is a matter of the will and personal choice, not of the quality or quantity of the proof/s.

 

Only where the proofs are capable of killing those in denial (e.g., I don't believe cyanide will kill me) will there be any kind of result. However, that result will not be that the person then comes to believe in the said proofs. No, the result will be that the person doing the denying will be dead. The looked for outcome (open-minded acceptance of reasonable proofs) can only come as a matter of wilful choice on that person's part. You cannot force that decision on them.

 

Thumbelina's mind is made up and dialog with her is what I'd call a H.U.F.WOT.

A Hopeless, Useless, Futile, Waste of Time.

 

Sorry again,

 

BAA.

 

Thank you, BAA. You're absolutely right. I do not want to waste my time so I'll focus my attention elsewhere.

[Antlerman]

Per our ongoing internal/external debate K.......I had an insight. Christ was not conceived as a union of a man from this world to Mary, but that the He came forth, was "born", from the Holy Spirit and with no influence of a fallen, worldly man.

But Mary was human... unless you buy that she was 'sinless'. The influence of the 'worldly' human would have been there through her genes, if you believe it comes through that, and not having Joseph involved wouldn't have bypassed anything in that regard. Regardless of the genes bit, 'worldliness' is a cultural thing, and both her and Joseph were part of the boy's indoctrination into the world, just like everyone is through their family and culture. Baby Jesus would have been as much as exposed to the world as anyone else.

 

Nevertheless, where you are going has some merit....

 

Please ignore all the puns...everyone. So "the Christ", i.e. holiness, was delivered internally from Mary, but external to Mary as well, as the "Father" being the Holy Spirit....an external Source IMO.

The very molecules and atoms of our bodies also come from outside us. But they are also "us", or so we believe. In this sense, yes our very Nature comes from the infinite IS'ness of the Universe. We only localize it in "us" because of how we perceive reality. From a dualistic perception of reality is both external and internal. In a nondualistic perception, no such distinctions exist. It is best understood by saying, I AM.

 

So when you say that the Spiritual comes from within us, yes, I think so.

Praise all the gods! Thou art so close, soon thou shalt see.

 

But you can also see how it is external as well as the Spirit conceives the Spirit within us from an external Source.....but comes to us from within....internally. So it would make sense that the Spiritual awareness is recognized from within.

What you are apprehending internally is what is in ALL. So the internal becomes the external. You are no more "you"; God is no more "thou". All distinctions dissolve into Absolute Being. You are That. That is you. "I and my Father are One".

 

Again, yes it is external - from a dualistic perspective. It is also internal from a dualistic perspective as well. Where the confusion comes is to look at that external as being "put in you" from outside you. That is the typical Christian perspective which I feel ends up in confusion. "It's not me, it's God". That is in fact a barrier to realizing what is in fact YOU - in the ultimate sense. Not you, little you, but Big Mind. It is not an egotistical thing at all to say "I am God". It is in fact the most humble thing any human could ever say, because you dissolved the barrier of a false self as the focus of your attentions. All you see is God, and your identity is That.

 

Head hurt yet End?

 

Refutations are welcome

Actually, you are incredibly close to realize it. You just have to 'flip that switch' so to speak.

[par4dcourse]

Thumby, if the devil is all that and a bag of chips, powerful and deceptive, and a better impersonator than Frank Caliendo, how do you know your all helpful god isn't just another bad spook pretending to be good?

[NotBlinded]

Per our ongoing internal/external debate K.......I had an insight. Christ was not conceived as a union of a man from this world to Mary, but that the He came forth, was "born", from the Holy Spirit and with no influence of a fallen, worldly man. Please ignore all the puns...everyone. So "the Christ", i.e. holiness, was delivered internally from Mary, but external to Mary as well, as the "Father" being the Holy Spirit....an external Source IMO. So when you say that the Spiritual comes from within us, yes, I think so. But you can also see how it is external as well as the Spirit conceives the Spirit within us from an external Source.....but comes to us from within....internally. So it would make sense that the Spiritual awareness is recognized from within.

 

Refutations are welcome

You better watch.out end...that's damn close to mysticism. . Maybe even panentheism.

[Guest end3]

Per our ongoing internal/external debate K.......I had an insight. Christ was not conceived as a union of a man from this world to Mary, but that the He came forth, was "born", from the Holy Spirit and with no influence of a fallen, worldly man. Please ignore all the puns...everyone. So "the Christ", i.e. holiness, was delivered internally from Mary, but external to Mary as well, as the "Father" being the Holy Spirit....an external Source IMO. So when you say that the Spiritual comes from within us, yes, I think so. But you can also see how it is external as well as the Spirit conceives the Spirit within us from an external Source.....but comes to us from within....internally. So it would make sense that the Spiritual awareness is recognized from within.

 

Refutations are welcome

You better watch.out end...that's damn close to mysticism. . Maybe even panentheism.

 

I had seen that a few years back.....I just didn't piece it together as miscommunication with AM. Funny how long and bad that misunderstanding was. Very good to see you. Missing your input. Hope all is well.

[Antlerman]

Per our ongoing internal/external debate K.......I had an insight. Christ was not conceived as a union of a man from this world to Mary, but that the He came forth, was "born", from the Holy Spirit and with no influence of a fallen, worldly man. Please ignore all the puns...everyone. So "the Christ", i.e. holiness, was delivered internally from Mary, but external to Mary as well, as the "Father" being the Holy Spirit....an external Source IMO. So when you say that the Spiritual comes from within us, yes, I think so. But you can also see how it is external as well as the Spirit conceives the Spirit within us from an external Source.....but comes to us from within....internally. So it would make sense that the Spiritual awareness is recognized from within.

 

Refutations are welcome

You better watch.out end...that's damn close to mysticism. . Maybe even panentheism.

 

I had seen that a few years back.....I just didn't piece it together as miscommunication with AM. Funny how long and bad that misunderstanding was. Very good to see you. Missing your input. Hope all is well.

Words are such fickle things. I know how close you are End. Actually, you do see in your way.

[Guest end3]

Per our ongoing internal/external debate K.......I had an insight. Christ was not conceived as a union of a man from this world to Mary, but that the He came forth, was "born", from the Holy Spirit and with no influence of a fallen, worldly man.

But Mary was human... unless you buy that she was 'sinless'. The influence of the 'worldly' human would have been there through her genes, if you believe it comes through that, and not having Joseph involved wouldn't have bypassed anything in that regard. Regardless of the genes bit, 'worldliness' is a cultural thing, and both her and Joseph were part of the boy's indoctrination into the world, just like everyone is through their family and culture. Baby Jesus would have been as much as exposed to the world as anyone else.

 

Nevertheless, where you are going has some merit....

 

Please ignore all the puns...everyone. So "the Christ", i.e. holiness, was delivered internally from Mary, but external to Mary as well, as the "Father" being the Holy Spirit....an external Source IMO.

The very molecules and atoms of our bodies also come from outside us. But they are also "us", or so we believe. In this sense, yes our very Nature comes from the infinite IS'ness of the Universe. We only localize it in "us" because of how we perceive reality. From a dualistic perception of reality is both external and internal. In a nondualistic perception, no such distinctions exist. It is best understood by saying, I AM.

 

So when you say that the Spiritual comes from within us, yes, I think so.

Praise all the gods! Thou art so close, soon thou shalt see.

 

But you can also see how it is external as well as the Spirit conceives the Spirit within us from an external Source.....but comes to us from within....internally. So it would make sense that the Spiritual awareness is recognized from within.

What you are apprehending internally is what is in ALL. So the internal becomes the external. You are no more "you"; God is no more "thou". All distinctions dissolve into Absolute Being. You are That. That is you. "I and my Father are One".

 

Again, yes it is external - from a dualistic perspective. It is also internal from a dualistic perspective as well. Where the confusion comes is to look at that external as being "put in you" from outside you. That is the typical Christian perspective which I feel ends up in confusion. "It's not me, it's God". That is in fact a barrier to realizing what is in fact YOU - in the ultimate sense. Not you, little you, but Big Mind. It is not an egotistical thing at all to say "I am God". It is in fact the most humble thing any human could ever say, because you dissolved the barrier of a false self as the focus of your attentions. All you see is God, and your identity is That.

 

Head hurt yet End?

 

Refutations are welcome

Actually, you are incredibly close to realize it. You just have to 'flip that switch' so to speak.

 

I think I gathered that before as a directional manifestation of the Divine/God. For so long, I think you and I were miscommunicating. I was trying to describe the Divine being responsible for recognition of holiness but that didn't match the descending dove and the HS thing......but, but, as a young man, I thought that I always had an innate understanding....which makes sense now. But none the less, not everything from the manifested side strikes a chord or "quickens" the Spiritual side. So why do you think this is. There are IMO, only glimpses of the door being opened both ways. Good stuff.

 

And, I want you to know that i still think Jesus to be different that us.....although I would like to explore some thoughts.

[Antlerman]

But none the less, not everything from the manifested side strikes a chord or "quickens" the Spiritual side. So why do you think this is. There are IMO, only glimpses of the door being opened both ways. Good stuff.

I gather you are questioning why not everything 'transcendent' evokes a spiritual response, whereas at times it does but only in glimpses or brief periods of time, particularly why even some profound openings into that space soon fades back. This can get rather involved in explanation but I'll keep it simple. It's less about finding something 'out there', as it is about unlearning those patterns in ourselves that veils it from our apprehension. Those are momentary openings that sneak in when you are distracted from your notions of 'reality', glimpses into a higher realization yet beyond your current grasp. You experience those as profound states, experiencing your own being in connection with the greater reality beyond comprehension. It is known experientially in flashes, and then we take those glimpses and try to process them mentally within the contexts of how we currently understand our worlds.

 

They serve IMO as little lights that draw and pull us towards their points breaking through the clouds, exposing in us what lays beyond the current world. And by that I do not mean beyond the grave in some celestial home in the sky, but beyond our current world of understanding. That understanding however is not attained through reasoning yourself into it by learning this teaching or that discovery, or that fact over there, but rather it is apprehended through direct, firsthand experiences. Those experiences impart a knowledge which then are processed in mental understandings. They inform understanding in profound ways beyond simply reading a book. My best metaphor to describe it is like getting two brains which layer on top of each other. It is insight that cannot be gotten any other way than directly. No book, no teacher, no amount of study or reason can ever hope to touch it, let alone impart its knowledge.

 

Where the unlearning part comes in, is not in dismissing everything we know, or worse yet violating reason in trying to make that knowledge fit our current understanding (i.e., denying the facts of the natural world because we try understand God in a mythological context, a context which had no tools of science at its disposal at the time). The unlearning takes those notions about that higher reality and allows it to inform our understanding, loosening our tight hold on what we believe to be reality. It's like unlearning the world as seen by a child to the world as seen by an adult, except to a much higher level. It is pulling back that veil of the flesh, so to speak, the eye of mind seeing the world though the material reality only. It also pulls back that veil on the eye of mind, seeing the world through all its symbolic structures of reality. It exposes what is beyond all those. What you experienced was a momentary pulling back of those understandings.

 

We all experiences that from time to time to one degree or another. But we are quick to pull those veils back to what seems stable to us. We don't know how to process that in an everyday sort of affair. Soon we slip back into forgetfulness, and either just simply rationalize them away, or contextualize them into how we are familiar with the world. With more actual intentioned exposure to those higher states of reality, the more knowledge is imparted, the more growth into that place occurs in a transformational process. In the West, in Christianity in particular, it has no "Yoga" so to speak. It has no way to reproduce that on a regular basis, and only goes through life occasionally and unpredictably experiencing momentary glimpses into "God".

 

Enter here the mystic traditions. It is more than possible to go into those places with practice on a regular, daily basis. Each time is a new pulling back of those veils and a new take-away knowledge that informs us. It doesn't matter what religious framework, if any at all, a practitioner may use. All understandings give way to a direct apprehension, and the meaning of the symbols whatever those may be go so far beyond any religious traditions that the significance of them is beyond communicating to others about. They are deep expressions of our subconscious minds in a space of expression freed from the reasoning mind trying to busily box reality, to box God, into its own understanding. There is a freedom in there that speaks its own language, so to speak, a higher mind, the mind of God if you will in ever deepening awareness, rooms beyond rooms, veils beyond veils, to the point where all symbolic realities dissolve into Absolute Being. It is a repeatable place you can go, but it is through a process of unlearning, which can only happen through experience, not teachings. Teachings can point you there, but no understanding occurs until you go there. And what you find is your path alone. It is "you" helping 'you' to know your true Self.

 

And, I want you to know that i still think Jesus to be different that us.....although I would like to explore some thoughts.

I'm different than you too, but not. I don't see Jesus as is understood religiously, to be anything that any of us ourselves cannot be. I find it a poor message of Christianity that makes him "different' that says no one but him can be One with God. To me, for the Christian to see Jesus directly as their brother is far more powerful apprehension than to forever call him Lord. Same thing with the Buddha. There is symbolic value to put a face upon the Divine, and I do recognize that. But that is simply a tool to help you realize your own place within that reality. The day you can look at Jesus in your mind and say, "brother", is the day you no longer need the tools of symbolism to help free the mind. And beyond that still, even that brother dissolves into you to the point that you are that Christ yourself.

 

Process that for awhile.

 

BTW, there is no way to apply any literal understandings to what I've just said. It is all highly symbolic language, but it does speak to an experience of reality that words cannot convey. I think you somewhat get this.