Why I Am No Longer A Xian

[AlphaToOmega]

 

James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

 

I knew the power of anti prayer is the key.

 

Don't pray for your son's life. Pray that he dies. You won't receive it.

Pray for misery so that you may not get it.

Pray for poverty so you will never be poor.

[Thumbelina]

Really, you were flattered? Eh, like the guy in this thread: http://www.ex-christ...192#entry685192 ,

Oh hey, I didn't see that! A special discussion about me. I'm flattered. I think I'm getting better at expressing my thoughts about this stuff now. We'll see. It's taken a lot of deep-diving and a lot of weeding the garden so to speak to see and to experience this with greater clarity. Let's see how I do going forward. Who knows, it might even make sense to you.

 

 

Well, you guys are interesting. Yup, we'll see.

 

The thing is Thumbs, those in that thread who say they have a hard time getting what I say said it was because they don't get the whole draw to spirituality. It was Florduh who said that. But, you, who claim to have that, should be able to hear some of that, even if it sounds like a foreign language to what you're accustomed to as a Christian who thinks in pretty literal terms. Do you ever listen with another set of ears to something that doesn't come from your trust in some so called authority? Believe me, I doubt you've moved past the baby-bottle of your 'faith'. Could you ever see yourself saying, "There is so much in my heart that I hear that contradicts what I'm being told," that you have no choice but to say goodbye to your religion?

 

 

It wasn't Florduh that said that, it was Pockets. *teasing* of course Florduh doesn't get spirituality, by his own admission, he's not right in the head My first encounter with God was very spiritual, it was not bible based, He reached out to me when I was observing nature and I felt His love enveloping me. However, it's not ALWAYS about feelings, our feelings fluctuate! I was led to realize that belief in God is based on rational faith and He loves to appeal to our intellect. I realized just how beautiful and intelligent and wonderful Jesus is. I have moved past the milk stage of Christianity and I know that Jesus does not just want me to give mental assent to what He led me to understand. He wants me to assimilate His word and to be like Him http://bible.cc/1_john/3-2.htm . I need to let Him be my Lord and not just my savior. Aman, I do not follow a creed, some man made doctrine, I follow God. The Holy Spirit does speak to me. The bible says that my heart is evil and desperately wicked so if I trust that, I'm gonna be in trouble! Jesus wants to create a new heart for me and my experiences are showing up what it is my heart and it is not good. Surprisingly, this does not make me go down in despair but it makes me more determined to hold on to Jesus so I can resemble Him.

 

This is why I say often times to you, you place your beliefs above God. Ponder this.

 

 

Anything that is placed above God is an idol and believe it or not, religion can become an idol; that happened to the Jews.

[Thumbelina]

More light can NEVER come from leaving Christianity, according to the bible, that will be an illusion.

Oh, but it's not!

 

Again Thumbs, you rely on some external source - and one that is mediated by your limited knowledge and understanding, to speak of things which are internal. I cannot begin to tell you how much light in the world and in me there is today for me! And I am not talking about head-knowledge stuff. Even that is most surely more reliable than your doctrinal beliefs, but that is not where it comes from for me. That is simply that power of knowledge in one hand, and the grounding of spirit in the other. The world is open before me. I breath in the soul of the world and exhale the light of life in return to it. The universe lives in me, and I hear and see the soul of the world in my very being.

 

I could could go into great length on this, but that would doubtless confuse you as it shouldn't be that one who doesn't believe like you could taste and even become that very 'bread of life' to use your language. You have no idea of what you speak. It's all theoretical. I have touched the Face of God, so to speak, and "heaven" pours its light into the soul, become that in myself. (These are all highly symbolic words, by the way and I do not take them as literal factual things - they are symbolic of the essence, the nature, and the experience. They are expressions of what transcend, not science facts).

 

So, you were saying?

 

 

 

Aman, if I believed like that I would be opening up myself to be duped. In my belief system, the devils can make people feel like what you just described and so can drugs. I know I cannot always trust the evidence of my senses. Example, I was looking at "I Survived" a while back and there was a man who was stranded in his van in a blizzard and he was in the mountains. He did not have any winter clothes on, he had on shorts. He was there for over ten days and when he was thinking nobody will find him, a guy on a bike I think, showed up and he was rescued. The man on the bike said that his dead son came and told him where the man in the van was. Now, if it was me I would know that that was not my son, the dead know not anything http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/9-5.htm. There was a certain atheist around here who did an EXCELLENT job of finding this doctrine on his own.

 

It was a demon deceiving the man so the man can then trust the evidence of his senses and therefore embrace spiritism. A lot of people are involved in that, Aman --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_Ghost_Stories . Satan is preparing this world for his overmastering delusion http://bible.cc/revelation/12-9.htm . Muslims will fall for it, Jews will fall for it (their "Messiah" finally showed up), Hindus will be a shoo- in, atheists will then get "evidence" and Christians who follow religious traditions and not what the bible says, will fall for it My belief is based on an understanding of God's word, His love for us.

 

 

 

 

 

The bible teaches that God wants to appeal to our reason.

 

Such as when he says "lean not to your own understanding"?

 

 

 

 

No, such as this: http://bible.cc/isaiah/1-18.htm Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: ... "

 

BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with embracing reason! The only thing I will say is that to access that level of experience, it is not through reason you attain it. It is an internal realization in the subjective self. It is not external and objective, so reason cannot penetrate it. It is direct knowledge through direct experience.

 

Do you embrace reason?

 

 

 

 

I do embrace reason but I know that I am a finite being and I believe in an infinite omniscient God.

 

 

 

Whoever taught you about eternal hell was teaching a doctrine of devils.

 

 

Nice to know you don't believe what other Christians do. There may be hope for you!

 

 

 

 

 

I don't follow people http://bible.cc/jeremiah/17-5.htm , I follow God and therefore the bible. People cannot save me, can't even save their dang selves

 

 

God's Spirit dwells within believers but believers need to invite Him in daily. Oh , it is a relationship, He loves us soooo much. God's laws are called the laws of liberty and a Christian believes that faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. While Christians should not be dogmatic they ought to exhort with doctrine http://bible.cc/2_timothy/4-2.htm ; that's how faith grows, when a person UNDERSTANDS the Word like the disciples on the road to Emmaus. Christians NEED to rely on God and not their own understanding.

 

My growing came when I reached the limits of where I could go being told to find it in the Bible.

 

 

 

 

Aman, I am and have been curious about you guys and I recently read that although you were steeped in studying scripture, you did not understand it. Could this be why you made this statement? The bible says one is sanctified by the truth of the Word http://bible.cc/john/17-17.htm . AGAIN, God's Word appeals to our reason.

 

So how do you rely on God? Would you do so, even if it meant rejecting the poison of religious dogma and errors of beliefs? To the point that everything you thought you knew about your beliefs were not a source of reliable ground? That it was "shifting sand" that you were building your house on, all the while you were being told to trust it as it was "the Word of God"? Would you leave your religion in favor of finding light, or are you relying on your understanding, trusting in others words and not what is in you calling you forward?

 

 

As I say, I am not following a creed. God has led me thus far and I did not understand fully that I was sitting on a gold mine until a few years ago when God kept waking me up to read my bible during the wee hours of the morning. Now, I thank Him so much for how He has led me.

[Antlerman]

My first encounter with God was very spiritual, it was not bible based, He reached out to me when I was observing nature and I felt His love enveloping me.

OK then. So, you allow for people to legitimately experience God without being in the context of your beliefs. You yourself just now said you experienced God. Not some illusion. How did you know at the time, if it was not 'bible based'? What, are you now going to say it was Satan? Of course not. You knew it was God without the Bible.

 

I was led to realize that belief in God is based on rational faith and He loves to appeal to our intellect.

But you do not access God through your intellect. Besides, "rational faith"? WTF is that? Faith is not based on rational conclusions! Faith is a matter of the heart, without an understanding the mind can grasp! Do you know nothing?

 

P.S. "You were led to realize this...." How were you led? By someone else? Or led by God? And if led by God, then it was being led prior to knowing! In other words, you knew something without the Bible.

 

The Holy Spirit does speak to me. The bible says that my heart is evil and desperately wicked so if I trust that, I'm gonna be in trouble!

Whoa, you just contradicted yourself. You say the Spirit speaks to you, and then you go off looking at what the Bible says? Now you have a conflict. That was my conflict as well as a Christian. What I was told the Bible says, that we are incapable of good, conflicted with what I felt in my heart from God.

 

I did what you tell me to do, and it was an error. I tried to NOT listen to that "witness in the heart", because the Bible was supposed to be the authority, and we can't trust our heart! Exactly what you explain below. I was there, doing what you are doing. What happened was me trying to suppress what that voice speaking in my heart was showing me, because I was told by those who told you too that you can't trust that. It could not be suppressed! I lived in great conflict, tying to hang onto the convictions that I was being true to God's Word (as they or I understood it, just like you think too Thumbs), but it created a brokenness in my spirit. All I can say is you have the wrong idea about when you should listen to what is in your heart, when everything outside you, in your limited understanding, such as thinking the Bible trumps the heart, that you should not trust it! Talk about a lie of Satan, to use your myth structures to communicate.

 

Jesus wants to create a new heart for me and my experiences are showing up what it is my heart and it is not good.

Hey you know, as I meditate I see things in me which are my dark side too. But they are not "my heart". They are not yours either! We all, everyone, are BOTH. We are both light and dark. If you see those dark parts of you, here is what really needs to happen. You need to accept that you are both, not try to deny them and suppress them and plead and beg, "Jesus, take this from me!! I don't want it!"

 

The only way you can overcome those dark parts of you is to accept them. You have to do something frightening. You have to embrace them as you own hideous offspring, it is your baby that is you. Why on earth would I say that? Am I of the Devil? Here's the reason. We all, every human being alive, have both a lower nature and a higher nature. As we nurture and develop that higher nature, we do not get rid of that lower nature (what your myth structures calls sin). We can't get rid of it, nor should we try. What would should try is to master it with our higher natures. You cannot learn to harness the wild horse if you refuse to get into the corral with it. You will never be whole if you cannot transcend your lower nature and negate it's dominance in your life by allowing the higher nature to reign.

 

Here's the key. You heart is BOTH good and bad. Make the good dominant. Don't tell yourself your heart is evil. If it were, you wouldn't even question your condition. Make sense? And please, don't start quoting scripture at me. Many theologians far more knowledgeable than you have read that man's nature is inherently good, not bad. I say we are inherently developing from lower to higher natures. As such we are both. We are pairs of opposites.

 

This is why I say often times to you, you place your beliefs above God. Ponder this.

 

 

Anything that is placed above God is an idol and believe it or not, religion can become an idol; that happened to the Jews.

Exactly. My point exactly. Vast swaths of Christians make their beliefs the truth, and don't have room for anything but that, including God.

[Antlerman]

More light can NEVER come from leaving Christianity, according to the bible, that will be an illusion.

Oh, but it's not!

 

Again Thumbs, you rely on some external source - and one that is mediated by your limited knowledge and understanding, to speak of things which are internal. I cannot begin to tell you how much light in the world and in me there is today for me! And I am not talking about head-knowledge stuff. Even that is most surely more reliable than your doctrinal beliefs, but that is not where it comes from for me. That is simply that power of knowledge in one hand, and the grounding of spirit in the other. The world is open before me. I breath in the soul of the world and exhale the light of life in return to it. The universe lives in me, and I hear and see the soul of the world in my very being.

 

I could could go into great length on this, but that would doubtless confuse you as it shouldn't be that one who doesn't believe like you could taste and even become that very 'bread of life' to use your language. You have no idea of what you speak. It's all theoretical. I have touched the Face of God, so to speak, and "heaven" pours its light into the soul, become that in myself. (These are all highly symbolic words, by the way and I do not take them as literal factual things - they are symbolic of the essence, the nature, and the experience. They are expressions of what transcend, not science facts).

 

So, you were saying?

 

 

 

Aman, if I believed like that I would be opening up myself to be duped.

There is your entire problem. Why? I am no fool, and I guarantee I am not being duped. I know this because of what I experience is genuine in infinite magnitudes. There is not simply one way of knowing Truth. I experienced God as a Christian too, but my understanding of it was limited, like yours is now, and I relied on the Bible, like you do now, to keep me from 'being duped', like your saying now too. But I was duped. Not that what I was experiencing wasn't God, but that what they understood and thought and taught about God and the Bible was, well, not Truth with a capital T. It was at best, a baby's way of understanding God - which may have been right for them, but not me.

 

And your way of understanding to me is at best like that. It's not invalid per se to try to hang your experiences on, but that way of thinking cannot allow for "God" to be more than that understanding. Some people need to be able to define God, but I think it is far more realistic to say and view God as being undefinable. I can allow for you to experience God, because I know God is larger than your theology, your religion, and yours or my understandings. They are all partial truths, and if that Truth transcends all truths, then neither you nor I can claim to have the True Doctrines. I can however say assuredly, that I experience that higher nature in myself, and that is borne out by the fruits it bears. An "evil tree" cannot bear good fruit. How I believe is open to interpretation and modification. What I experience is limitless. It is only how we talk about it, that is not.

 

In my belief system, the devils can make people feel like what you just described and so can drugs.

But they cannot bear fruit. And no, this is not the devil. It is that same "God" I experienced the day the heavens rent open to me as a young man that sent me on this insatiable quest for knowing God that led me into Christianity, that led me into Bible College to go into the ministry, that led me out of the church, that led me out of that religion, that led me into atheism, that led me into what I am now which is able to embrace and understand it all in a unified spiritual life of knowledge and soul. I am not mistaken. The fruit in my life now is unimaginably peaceable and true.

 

I don't deny you God. Try to hear with your ears that in my life in my post-Christian, post-atheist understanding now. In fact if you can, try to hear God in everyone around you, rather than judging them through the darkness of your fears; fears of 'being duped'. If you had that confidence in spirit, you wouldn't fear. "Perfect love casts out all fear". Meditate on that.

 

 

 

 

Aman, I am and have been curious about you guys and I recently read that although you were steeped in studying scripture, you did not understand it.

First of all, please stop referring to me as "you guys". I am not anyone else, and frankly I'd say all in all I'm pretty much an odd duck. So, talk to me as me, not "you guys".

 

And yes, I think my understanding of the Bible is formidable. I don't limit it to a doctrinal methodology. I go outside orthodoxy and look at modern scholarship as well.

[Thumbelina]

My first encounter with God was very spiritual, it was not bible based, He reached out to me when I was observing nature and I felt His love enveloping me.

OK then. So, you allow for people to legitimately experience God without being in the context of your beliefs.

 

 

 

Yes, as I said in another post, God meets us where we are at. The bible says people are without excuse for God placed eternity within our hearts.

 

 

 

Aman said: You yourself just now said you experienced God. Not some illusion. How did you know at the time, if it was not 'bible based'? What, are you now going to say it was Satan? Of course not. You knew it was God without the Bible.

 

 

 

At the time I was sure it was God, I didn't know how I knew, I just did. In hindsight I KNOW it was God because He introduced me to His Word and the Word explains all the love I felt from Him. Also, I had similar experiences with Him in recent years where He proved to me just how much He loves and cares for me.

 

 

I was led to realize that belief in God is based on rational faith and He loves to appeal to our intellect.

But you do not access God through your intellect. Besides, "rational faith"? WTF is that? Faith is not based on rational conclusions! Faith is a matter of the heart, without an understanding the mind can grasp! Do you know nothing?

 

God communicates with us via our frontal lobes. He made us that way so we can choose Him if we want. Faith is believing in God and knowing He would do what He says He can and will do. Apparently I had faith as a mustard seed and God grew it as I responded to His entreaties. The rational part of faith is understanding that God's commandments are holy, just and good and when they are broken it causes disharmony. I grew up where people were mostly secular and pee eeeew, morality was needed and no, as far as I'm aware most of them did not really break the civil laws. My heart yearned for something better than that.

 

 

Aman said: P.S. "You were led to realize this...." How were you led? By someone else? Or led by God? And if led by God, then it was being led prior to knowing! In other words, you knew something without the Bible.

 

 

I was led by the Holy Spirit even though I did not know that at the time it happened. I was responding to the wooing of the HS God placed that knowing within my mind. I did look at the bible after that and I understood some things automatically, yeah like men treating women like crap came about because of sin. I saw it in real life and I saw it in the bible but I did not deliberately misunderstand the texts -- like atheistic propagandists -- to make it seem that God wanted bad treatment of women. It did not start out that way.

 

The Holy Spirit does speak to me. The bible says that my heart is evil and desperately wicked so if I trust that, I'm gonna be in trouble!

 

 

Aman said: Whoa, you just contradicted yourself. You say the Spirit speaks to you, and then you go off looking at what the Bible says? Now you have a conflict. That was my conflict as well as a Christian. What I was told the Bible says, that we are incapable of good, conflicted with what I felt in my heart from God.

 

The Spirit will not speak anything that is contrary to the bible, Aman. I came into the faith with a self righteous stinkin' attitude, I COMPARED myself with the people in my neighborhood and I felt superior We are inherently selfish, Aman. Do you have to teach a toddler to share or do you have to stop him/her from being generous and giving everything away? Without God our best efforts and achievements are tainted with selfishness and wrong motives and the reason why we can do good is because the HS is striving with us. I would say what you felt in your heart was what my self righteous self felt and it was from god and not God. Satan's charge is that we can be good without God, who needs God's rules?

 

 

Aman said: I did what you tell me to do, and it was an error. I tried to NOT listen to that "witness in the heart", because the Bible was supposed to be the authority, and we can't trust our heart! Exactly what you explain below. I was there, doing what you are doing. What happened was me trying to suppress what that voice speaking in my heart was showing me, because I was told by those who told you too that you can't trust that. It could not be suppressed! I lived in great conflict, tying to hang onto the convictions that I was being true to God's Word (as they or I understood it, just like you think too Thumbs), but it created a brokenness in my spirit. All I can say is you have the wrong idea about when you should listen to what is in your heart, when everything outside you, in your limited understanding, such as thinking the Bible trumps the heart, that you should not trust it! Talk about a lie of Satan, to use your myth structures to communicate.

 

You're funny, myth structures *shakes head* You did not get peace because you did not understand the Word (the gospel) but I get peace because I do. I'm too cynical of a person (cuz of the environment I grew up in) to just take people's word about things so ain't no church gonna just have me swallow anything they say.

 

 

 

 

Jesus wants to create a new heart for me and my experiences are showing up what it is my heart and it is not good.

 

Aman said: Hey you know, as I meditate

 

 

 

You meditate using eastern philosophies, don't you? You empty your mind and let your "heart" speak, don't you?

Aman said: I see things in me which are my dark side too. But they are not "my heart". They are not yours either! We all, everyone, are BOTH. We are both light and dark. If you see those dark parts of you, here is what really needs to happen. You need to accept that you are both, not try to deny them and suppress them and plead and beg, "Jesus, take this from me!! I don't want it!"

 

The only way you can overcome those dark parts of you is to accept them. You have to do something frightening. You have to embrace them as you own hideous offspring, it is your baby that is you. Why on earth would I say that? Am I of the Devil? Here's the reason. We all, every human being alive, have both a lower nature and a higher nature. As we nurture and develop that higher nature, we do not get rid of that lower nature (what your myth structures calls sin). We can't get rid of it, nor should we try. What would should try is to master it with our higher natures. You cannot learn to harness the wild horse if you refuse to get into the corral with it. You will never be whole if you cannot transcend your lower nature and negate it's dominance in your life by allowing the higher nature to reign.

 

Here's the key. You heart is BOTH good and bad. Make the good dominant. Don't tell yourself your heart is evil. If it were, you wouldn't even question your condition. Make sense? And please, don't start quoting scripture at me. Many theologians far more knowledgeable than you have read that man's nature is inherently good, not bad. I say we are inherently developing from lower to higher natures. As such we are both. We are pairs of opposites.

 

 

To overcome my dark side, I need to acknowledge that I have it and I need to surrender to God and He will live out His life within me but it is a process.You do agree with the bible on some fronts, we can't get rid of the sin nature of ours by trying to master it. What we disagree on is the how. You think that self can help a person but the bible says get rid of self! It is God who works in us to align our wills to His and we then can do good works from PURE motives. The Christian wins by surrendering self and this is the hardest thing to do and self is the biggest enemy to face. We are naturally selfish but we sense that we are called to be something better. I don't much care about "learned" theologians who lean on their own understanding in order to promote sin and not call it by its right name.

Aman, we believe similar to some extent, we do have two natures, it's like having two dogs that are going to fight, if you starve one then the other dog is sure to win the fight. We are to feed our spiritual natures continually and starve the carnal nature continually and what ever nature is fed most, wins. However, we cannot starve the carnal nature and feed the spiritual one without God. A Christian has to meditate on the Word; the Word appeals to the intellect.

 

 

This is why I say often times to you, you place your beliefs above God. Ponder this.

 

 

Anything that is placed above God is an idol and believe it or not, religion can become an idol; that happened to the Jews.

Aman said: Exactly. My point exactly. Vast swaths of Christians make their beliefs the truth, and don't have room for anything but that, including God.

 

 

Ah, we agree on something

[Thumbelina]

More light can NEVER come from leaving Christianity, according to the bible, that will be an illusion.

Oh, but it's not!

 

Again Thumbs, you rely on some external source - and one that is mediated by your limited knowledge and understanding, to speak of things which are internal. I cannot begin to tell you how much light in the world and in me there is today for me! And I am not talking about head-knowledge stuff. Even that is most surely more reliable than your doctrinal beliefs, but that is not where it comes from for me. That is simply that power of knowledge in one hand, and the grounding of spirit in the other. The world is open before me. I breath in the soul of the world and exhale the light of life in return to it. The universe lives in me, and I hear and see the soul of the world in my very being.

 

I could could go into great length on this, but that would doubtless confuse you as it shouldn't be that one who doesn't believe like you could taste and even become that very 'bread of life' to use your language. You have no idea of what you speak. It's all theoretical. I have touched the Face of God, so to speak, and "heaven" pours its light into the soul, become that in myself. (These are all highly symbolic words, by the way and I do not take them as literal factual things - they are symbolic of the essence, the nature, and the experience. They are expressions of what transcend, not science facts).

 

So, you were saying?

 

 

 

Aman, if I believed like that I would be opening up myself to be duped.

There is your entire problem. Why? I am no fool, and I guarantee I am not being duped. I know this because of what I experience is genuine in infinite magnitudes. There is not simply one way of knowing Truth. I experienced God as a Christian too, but my understanding of it was limited, like yours is now, and I relied on the Bible, like you do now, to keep me from 'being duped', like your saying now too. But I was duped. Not that what I was experiencing wasn't God, but that what they understood and thought and taught about God and the Bible was, well, not Truth with a capital T. It was at best, a baby's way of understanding God - which may have been right for them, but not me.

 

And your way of understanding to me is at best like that. It's not invalid per se to try to hang your experiences on, but that way of thinking cannot allow for "God" to be more than that understanding. Some people need to be able to define God, but I think it is far more realistic to say and view God as being undefinable. I can allow for you to experience God, because I know God is larger than your theology, your religion, and yours or my understandings. They are all partial truths, and if that Truth transcends all truths, then neither you nor I can claim to have the True Doctrines. I can however say assuredly, that I experience that higher nature in myself, and that is borne out by the fruits it bears. An "evil tree" cannot bear good fruit. How I believe is open to interpretation and modification. What I experience is limitless. It is only how we talk about it, that is not.

 

 

 

 

Yes, God is beyond our comprehension; if a created being can understand God fully then God will cease to be God. Aman, the essence of deception is that the deceived person does not know they are being deceived; the bible keeps Christians from being deceived. I say that the bible has true doctrines and the more one goes to God and studies the Word, the more God will enlighten them. Us humans can end up doing some stupid or evil things when we think we are on the right path. To keep us humble we should only compare ourselves to God, a human cannot gauge their own righteousness without the Word and the HS, Aman, a lot of Buddhists believe the same things you do and while they have noble reasons for wanting to do good, the fact is doing it sans God is like spinning a top in thick mud, it does not work. I saw a Buddhist on the show "Most Daring", shooting at people with a machine gun, another one kidnapped a lady and held her hostage. They thought they can meditate themselves into being good but that carnal side shows up. Understanding the commandments and that sin hurts God and others helps a person seek God out.

 

 

In my belief system, the devils can make people feel like what you just described and so can drugs.

 

 

Aman said: But they cannot bear fruit. And no, this is not the devil. It is that same "God" I experienced the day the heavens rent open to me as a young man that sent me on this insatiable quest for knowing God that led me into Christianity, that led me into Bible College to go into the ministry, that led me out of the church, that led me out of that religion, that led me into atheism, that led me into what I am now which is able to embrace and understand it all in a unified spiritual life of knowledge and soul. I am not mistaken. The fruit in my life now is unimaginably peaceable and true.

 

 

The devil appears as an angel of light. N.B. I am not saying you are a devil.

I'm sorry Aman, but Muhummad had revelations from "god" too. Constantine experienced "god" too but he still continued with idolatry. The devil sticks on counterfeit fruit on trees and yes, eventually they will fall off but for some people it might be too late. They were deceived. The devils can do good deeds to gain the trust of people. As I said, it is nice that you want peace for yourself and others and it is my wish that ultimately you do not end up deceived and that you have a strong connection with the true God of heaven.

 

 

Aman said: I don't deny you God. Try to hear with your ears that in my life in my post-Christian, post-atheist understanding now. In fact if you can, try to hear God in everyone around you, rather than judging them through the darkness of your fears; fears of 'being duped'. If you had that confidence in spirit, you wouldn't fear. "Perfect love casts out all fear". Meditate on that.

 

Yes, the bible warns about evil surmisings and a Christian's confidence comes from knowing God is in charge.

 

 

Aman, I am and have been curious about you guys and I recently read that although you were steeped in studying scripture, you did not understand it.

 

Aman said: First of all, please stop referring to me as "you guys". I am not anyone else, and frankly I'd say all in all I'm pretty much an odd duck. So, talk to me as me, not "you guys".

 

And yes, I think my understanding of the Bible is formidable. I don't limit it to a doctrinal methodology. I go outside orthodoxy and look at modern scholarship as well.

 

 

 

I was not referring to you as you guys, I was referring to the people on this site as that. People on here are quite interesting and can be sort of charming in their own way but don't let it get to your heads, Jesus is MORE charming

 

I was impressed by a certain topic you wrote about on here so I did see you have knowledge from the bible. So that means that you know how to trace a doctrine through the bible? Hey, if you are ever up to it, maybe you'd want to play God's advocate and show these guys on here that Ephesians 1:5 does not mean that the bibleGod moves people around like chess pieces. That topic is in this thread: http://www.ex-christ...y-of-calvinism/

[Thumbelina]

 

James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

 

I knew the power of anti prayer is the key.

 

Don't pray for your son's life. Pray that he dies. You won't receive it.

Pray for misery so that you may not get it.

Pray for poverty so you will never be poor.

 

What are you talking about?

[Antlerman]

Yes, as I said in another post, God meets us where we are at. The bible says people are without excuse for God placed eternity within our hearts.

And what if "God meets us where we are at," means that if the system of Christianity fails us, that is is not just OK to find another system (or none at all) in order to realize that in our lives, but that is in in fact the right thing, the correct thing, the honorable thing, and the very thing that "God wants" for people? In other words get rid of what stands in your way, in favor of finding that Truth.

 

What's this you say about not being part of the Christian community yourself? How come? Same reasons, just not the level of reason I have, or frankly everyone on this site has? It is my belief everyone here left the religion because they weren't finding what they needed in it, which was something more positive and fulfilling to them, in a healthy way, not a sinful way.

 

 

 

Aman said: You yourself just now said you experienced God. Not some illusion. How did you know at the time, if it was not 'bible based'? What, are you now going to say it was Satan? Of course not. You knew it was God without the Bible.

 

At the time I was sure it was God, I didn't know how I knew, I just did.

And so you tell me I'm deceived? I know. Every fiber of my being knows. It is not just my 'thinking' it is. You knew, I know. I don't judge you, yet you place your thoughts about these things above the reality of God in others.

 

In hindsight I KNOW it was God because He introduced me to His Word and the Word explains all the love I felt from Him.

In hindsight??? No, you knew it at the time. You later reasoned it must have been Bible God.

 

 

I'm out of time, will respond to the rest later....

[AlphaToOmega]

James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

 

I knew the power of anti prayer is the key. Don't pray for your son's life. Pray that he dies. You won't receive it. Pray for misery so that you may not get it. Pray for poverty so you will never be poor.

 

What are you talking about?

your response

 

Firstly I'm writing not talking but that's just me being pedantic for fun.

Secondly, read where I quoted you then read my response.

If you can't figure it out I'd be surprised.

[Antlerman]

God communicates with us via our frontal lobes.

You know this how? Actually, in meditation, which I'll address later to clear your misunderstandings, the frontal lobes are much higher in activity than normal. If you are one who does the tongues talking practice in your religious experience where those who do take that as God speaking through them, the frontal lobe activity stops. So I'm not entirely sure exactly what your thinking is here, since you think meditation is spooky weird/devil worship whatever.

 

BTW, there is a big difference between pondering something, relaxation, reflection, and what contemplative practice is. Contemplation is not reading a book and thinking about the words. It is a practice that has been part of Christianity, as well as Eastern religions. It's just since the Protestant reformation that it fell into disuse, but is now making a resurgence within both Protestant and Catholic practices. So, think twice about your understanding. More later....

 

(It is my hope they do continue that, because at the end of that, all this silly literalism melts away into something far deeper. As the Christian mystic Meister Ekhart put it, "God beyond God" ).

 

He made us that way so we can choose Him if we want.

This is your speculation as to how God operates. It's rather Sunday School'ish.

 

Aman said: P.S. "You were led to realize this...." How were you led? By someone else? Or led by God? And if led by God, then it was being led prior to knowing! In other words, you knew something without the Bible.

 

 

I was led by the Holy Spirit even though I did not know that at the time it happened.

But you said you knew it was God. Now you are saying you didn't realize it? That's right, you consider the Holy Spirit a separate God in God, but not God, but you know... God. You know.

 

I tease you.

 

I was responding to the wooing of the HS God placed that knowing within my mind.

And you can claim this, while I cannot?

 

I did look at the bible after that and I understood some things automatically, yeah like men treating women like crap came about because of sin. I saw it in real life and I saw it in the bible but I did not deliberately misunderstand the texts -- like atheistic propagandists -- to make it seem that God wanted bad treatment of women. It did not start out that way.

What this was is you finding a structure that spoke to you where you were at. The mistake is to nail it down on the floor and say, "This and this only!", frantically hanging onto that as the only tangible tie to your Realization. It then becomes a Substitute God. This is what I am seeing you falling into. You will find there are many truths in the world that are just as Divine to you as what you found at that time. Furthermore, don't mythologize the Bible that if it has some pearls of wisdom, that the whole thing is meant to be swallowed whole! It was a book for the time, and some things are timeless, others are quite cultural and should not be a guide to us today. You need to let this sort of thing become a "living word", meaning.... let it evolve. Open your eyes of spirit to other voices in the world, and let what is in your heart discern.

 

The Spirit will not speak anything that is contrary to the bible, Aman.

That was the mythic belief of the day. I would rather say, the spirit will be wisdom in action, and not take any other persons ideas as absolute truth. If it does not speak to you, then it is not a guide at all. It becomes a millstone around your neck. That is what religious dogma is. When you say it has to fit the Bible, that Thumbs is dogma. Dogma is the death of living Spirit.

 

I know too much about the Bible to accept it mythologically, that is is an infallible book. It is not. I know to much for that to work as a mythology for me. And in fact, because I know as much as I do at this point, I can actually appreciate and value various aspects of it, various parts, as spiritual. Believe it our not.

 

I came into the faith with a self righteous stinkin' attitude, I COMPARED myself with the people in my neighborhood and I felt superior We are inherently selfish, Aman.

We are naturally, and rightly so, selfish. But as we mature that selfishness becomes less so. If we remain selfish as an adult, then we have not grown socially or spiritually. It is necessary, important and healthy as a stage of human development to be selfish at first. It is what allows the sense of 'self' identity to develop. Then as we mature, the egocentricism begins to include others outside us, into family identification, then social group identification, to community identification, and if you are mature enough, to global identification, all the way up to God-identification. Selfishness lessens the more mature we become.

 

So, no, it is not our Nature. It is part of normal healthy development, that like what I said about darkness in us, it must be superseded by our developing higher nature. We are not "selfish" in our nature. We are also selfless, in our higher nature. We are a whole, spiritual, person at various stages of growth.

 

Do you have to teach a toddler to share or do you have to stop him/her from being generous and giving everything away?

You have made an error about them being 'selfless". That is not 'selflessness" in the sense of an adult being selfless! They have not yet developed a healthy sense of boundaries that define self yet. If they have not developed that sense of 'self' as an adult, then the act of selfless is not at all on the same level as a mature human! It is the same with Love. Marriage, true marriage, is when two, fully developed humans with distinct identities, fully matured egos, healthy senses of self, (not infantile narcissism), open that to include another ego into their own. Selfishness, excludes, not includes. A child cannot include an "other" into self, as no 'self' yet is defined. Taking this to a spiritual sense, when your matured separate self then merges its own identification with the entirety of all there is, that marriage is Oneness. You and "God" become ONE.

 

What do you think Jesus may have meant when he said, "I and the Father are One"? These teachings exist in many religions, BTW.

 

Now this, is something you will struggle with understanding things the way you do at this time.

 

 

More later....

[Thumbelina]

James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

 

I knew the power of anti prayer is the key. Don't pray for your son's life. Pray that he dies. You won't receive it. Pray for misery so that you may not get it. Pray for poverty so you will never be poor.

 

What are you talking about?

your response

 

Firstly I'm writing not talking but that's just me being pedantic for fun.

Secondly, read where I quoted you then read my response.

If you can't figure it out I'd be surprised.

 

 

Ah, you're into joshing I kinda confuse you with derpy derp (Noggy) sometimes. So, your joke is really the opposite of this one: There was a man who had an enemy and God wanted to teach him the lesson of blessing those who hate you. So God told the man, I'll give you anything you want but anything you get, your enemy gets twice as much. The man asked for different material possessions, cars, houses, the whole schbang but his enemy had twice as much. Finally he could not take it anymore so he asked God to blind him in one eye; guess what happened to the guy's enemy?

 

You should know AtoO , God knows the beginning from the end and He does not bend to the whims of man, He knows what is best for us. However, He would like us to prosper --> http://bible.cc/3_john/1-2.htm . It's just that affliction and hardship causes some people to see their need for God and that will cause them to be saved eventually.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

Will try to get back to this next week.

[Thumbelina]

Yes, as I said in another post, God meets us where we are at. The bible says people are without excuse for God placed eternity within our hearts.

And what if "God meets us where we are at," means that if the system of Christianity fails us, that is is not just OK to find another system (or none at all) in order to realize that in our lives, but that is in in fact the right thing, the correct thing, the honorable thing, and the very thing that "God wants" for people? In other words get rid of what stands in your way, in favor of finding that Truth.

 

 

What's this you say about not being part of the Christian community yourself? How come? Same reasons, just not the level of reason I have, or frankly everyone on this site has? It is my belief everyone here left the religion because they weren't finding what they needed in it, which was something more positive and fulfilling to them, in a healthy way, not a sinful way.

 

 

 

God meeting us where we are at just means than God's looks at our circumstances and He provides opportunities for us to respond to His call. Some people have to go through different systems before they can find the truth but as the bible says, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled. I didn't say anything about not being part of a Christian community, I said God and His word comes BEFORE any Christian community. Right religion can be positive and fulfilling, it has to be built on a relationship with God.

 

 

 

Aman said: You yourself just now said you experienced God. Not some illusion. How did you know at the time, if it was not 'bible based'? What, are you now going to say it was Satan? Of course not. You knew it was God without the Bible.

 

At the time I was sure it was God, I didn't know how I knew, I just did.

 

Aman said: And so you tell me I'm deceived? I know. Every fiber of my being knows. It is not just my 'thinking' it is. You knew, I know. I don't judge you, yet you place your thoughts about these things above the reality of God in others.

 

Sorry Aman, it's not easy being the one that has to say "The Emperor is naked!"

 

In hindsight I KNOW it was God because He introduced me to His Word and the Word explains all the love I felt from Him.

Aman said: In hindsight??? No, you knew it at the time. You later reasoned it must have been Bible God.

 

 

I'm out of time, will respond to the rest later....

 

How can I explain it? At the time I experienced God drawing me to Himself, there was something of a peace in my heart, I heard that still small voice telling me what was right and at the time I thought it was me figuring out things and for some reason I was just sure of what I will not follow. I was around different religions and I was observing them and I was forming opinions about them but how did I know what to avoid? I was so young. In HINDSIGHT, when my knowledge and understanding grew, I realized it was Providence that led me in the past and that is why I had that type of peace and it was not false peace that the devils can sometimes give to people in order to carry out their agenda.

[Thumbelina]

God communicates with us via our frontal lobes.

You know this how? Actually, in meditation, which I'll address later to clear your misunderstandings, the frontal lobes are much higher in activity than normal. If you are one who does the tongues talking practice in your religious experience where those who do take that as God speaking through them, the frontal lobe activity stops. So I'm not entirely sure exactly what your thinking is here, since you think meditation is spooky weird/devil worship whatever.

 

BTW, there is a big difference between pondering something, relaxation, reflection, and what contemplative practice is. Contemplation is not reading a book and thinking about the words. It is a practice that has been part of Christianity, as well as Eastern religions. It's just since the Protestant reformation that it fell into disuse, but is now making a resurgence within both Protestant and Catholic practices. So, think twice about your understanding. More later....

 

(It is my hope they do continue that, because at the end of that, all this silly literalism melts away into something far deeper. As the Christian mystic Meister Ekhart put it, "God beyond God" ).

 

 

 

Nothing is wrong with meditation, it's the type of meditation that is questionable. Nothing is wrong with pondering something, relaxation, reflection, ... . I believe that there was a genuine gift of tongues that God gave and can give to His followers when it is NEEDED but no, I don't believe in nonsensical, unnecessary babbling -->

http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/14-9.htm . Apparently the Corinthians were doing that nonsense that we see people doing on the TV and in religious services. I also do not believe in sitting down with my legs folded and saying "Ohm", that goes in the same category with nonsensical babbling or vain repetitions, as it were.

 

 

He made us that way so we can choose Him if we want.

Aman said: This is your speculation as to how God operates. It's rather Sunday School'ish.

 

 

 

Are you doing what the atheists do, getting rid of freedom of choice so you won't have to obey God completely? We think with our minds and that is where God communicates with us.

 

 

Aman said: P.S. "You were led to realize this...." How were you led? By someone else? Or led by God? And if led by God, then it was being led prior to knowing! In other words, you knew something without the Bible.

 

 

I was led by the Holy Spirit even though I did not know that at the time it happened.

 

Aman said: But you said you knew it was God. Now you are saying you didn't realize it? That's right, you consider the Holy Spirit a separate God in God, but not God, but you know... God. You know.

 

I tease you.

 

I know, I now understand how the bible was written the way it was. In the beginning, it's like being sure but not quite understanding but as your understanding grows and you realize that you were on the right path in just makes one doubly sure.

 

 

I was responding to the wooing of the HS God placed that knowing within my mind.

 

Aman said: And you can claim this, while I cannot?

 

Yup, you're on your way to committing spiritual suicide. Your "knowing" led you away from Christ so therefore it was false.

 

I did look at the bible after that and I understood some things automatically, yeah like men treating women like crap came about because of sin. I saw it in real life and I saw it in the bible but I did not deliberately misunderstand the texts -- like atheistic propagandists -- to make it seem that God wanted bad treatment of women. It did not start out that way.

 

 

Aman said: What this was is you finding a structure that spoke to you where you were at. The mistake is to nail it down on the floor and say, "This and this only!", frantically hanging onto that as the only tangible tie to your Realization. It then becomes a Substitute God. This is what I am seeing you falling into. You will find there are many truths in the world that are just as Divine to you as what you found at that time. Furthermore, don't mythologize the Bible that if it has some pearls of wisdom, that the whole thing is meant to be swallowed whole! It was a book for the time, and some things are timeless, others are quite cultural and should not be a guide to us today. You need to let this sort of thing become a "living word", meaning.... let it evolve. Open your eyes of spirit to other voices in the world, and let what is in your heart discern.

 

 

You do not know my past, I was around a variety of belief systems and that still small voice was coaching me. Logically, I should have wanted to join a church of the most beautiful and godly teacher that I ever met but that still small voice (the HS) said, no, this is not where I want you. Are you trying to say what Obama said in his inauguration speech; "all paths lead to the same god"? When I heard him say that, I was like, ' boy, Obama is talking nonsense!' smh, lol Obama is a politician who wants votes, Christians are not to follow the crowd, they are to dare to be Daniels. The bible has ancient words that are EVER true and yes one does have to consider cultural contexts but the principles it espouses are eternal. There are myriads of deceiving spirits out there, ask those people in India, I mean, 33 million gods? Ask the animists or the people in the Philippines who are slaves to the spirits.

 

The Spirit will not speak anything that is contrary to the bible, Aman.

 

 

 

Aman said: That was the mythic belief of the day. I would rather say, the spirit will be wisdom in action, and not take any other persons ideas as absolute truth. If it does not speak to you, then it is not a guide at all. It becomes a millstone around your neck. That is what religious dogma is. When you say it has to fit the Bible, that Thumbs is dogma. Dogma is the death of living Spirit.

 

I know too much about the Bible to accept it mythologically, that is is an infallible book. It is not. I know to much for that to work as a mythology for me. And in fact, because I know as much as I do at this point, I can actually appreciate and value various aspects of it, various parts, as spiritual. Believe it our not.

 

 

 

The fear (respect) of God is the BEGINNING of wisdom but God does want to reach our intellect and make us wise unto salvation. The bible is a magical book and it does speak to open hearts.

 

 

 

I came into the faith with a self righteous stinkin' attitude, I COMPARED myself with the people in my neighborhood and I felt superior We are inherently selfish, Aman.

 

 

 

Aman said: We are naturally, and rightly so, selfish. But as we mature that selfishness becomes less so. If we remain selfish as an adult, then we have not grown socially or spiritually. It is necessary, important and healthy as a stage of human development to be selfish at first. It is what allows the sense of 'self' identity to develop. Then as we mature, the egocentricism begins to include others outside us, into family identification, then social group identification, to community identification, and if you are mature enough, to global identification, all the way up to God-identification. Selfishness lessens the more mature we become.

 

So, no, it is not our Nature. It is part of normal healthy development, that like what I said about darkness in us, it must be superseded by our developing higher nature. We are not "selfish" in our nature. We are also selfless, in our higher nature. We are a whole, spiritual, person at various stages of growth.

 

You are defending selfishness? Can you picture how good this planet will be if everyone was selfless? Aman, are you sure you're on this planet? This planet is replete with selfish people! And it's NOT getting any better. Also, you haven't been around many children, have you? They are born selfish and that is their nature. They need to be steered in the right direction, otherwise they would turn into giant babies. Humans need a transcendent moral absolute in order to shape their characters and form ethics.

 

Do you have to teach a toddler to share or do you have to stop him/her from being generous and giving everything away?

 

Aman said: You have made an error about them being 'selfless". That is not 'selflessness" in the sense of an adult being selfless! They have not yet developed a healthy sense of boundaries that define self yet. If they have not developed that sense of 'self' as an adult, then the act of selfless is not at all on the same level as a mature human! It is the same with Love. Marriage, true marriage, is when two, fully developed humans with distinct identities, fully matured egos, healthy senses of self, (not infantile narcissism), open that to include another ego into their own. Selfishness, excludes, not includes. A child cannot include an "other" into self, as no 'self' yet is defined. Taking this to a spiritual sense, when your matured separate self then merges its own identification with the entirety of all there is, that marriage is Oneness. You and "God" become ONE.

 

What do you think Jesus may have meant when he said, "I and the Father are One"? These teachings exist in many religions, BTW.

 

Now this, is something you will struggle with understanding things the way you do at this time.

 

 

More later....

 

 

Again I say, Aman, are you on this planet and observing what is going on in it? Humans are NOT becoming more selfless! Do you see the state of marriages in the world today? Many people are just grown children and all they care about is wiifm (what's in it for me?). Yes, God is ONE, one in purpose, love and power. It would seem that you are proposing the type of belief system as Shirley Maclaine, or promoting the beliefs of the people in that atheistic "We are the World" song?

[Antlerman]

Nothing is wrong with meditation, it's the type of meditation that is questionable.

Why? Says who? You are an authority on this? How? Considering what you say next, it proves you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. So how can you call it 'questionable'? On what basis do you say this other than through your own fear and ignorance?

 

Nothing is wrong with pondering something, relaxation, reflection, ... .

That's true, but that's not meditation in the sense of contemplative practice. A practice that various Christians mystics do even today. How is it wrong?

 

I also do not believe in sitting down with my legs folded and saying "Ohm", that goes in the same category with nonsensical babbling or vain repetitions, as it were.

Now this is hilarious. You have no notion of what that practice is, do you? It's not praying to some external God in the sky as you think of it. Chant and mantra's are not about asking for a sky God over and over and over to give you your wishes, the way most Christians pray, BTW. It's a form of guided meditation through focusing the mind on a single thought. It clears a space for spiritual realization through removing the scattered thoughts of your mind and going into a place of silence. Even the Bible talks about going into silence to hear God. Don't you know?

 

The whole problem for you Thumbs is that you see God as external, not internal. Going into silence is the place to experience that spirit within, without the clutter of the mind, its busy thoughts and distracting emotions that arise in response. It clears the debris to see what simple IS. It is within that space that realizations arise to the conscious mind that inform and instruct. For you, it's entirely external. You have to read a book to tell you what is truth. You have to look up to a Sky-Parent to tell you what to believe. You cannot find it in yourself, because you do not look.

 

Looking within is frightening, because it in fact does require a whole lot of 'faith' that what you find there is good, and not a fearful darkness our irrational minds put before us out of fear of loosing ones hold on ones own self identity. But Jesus says, you have to die to live. And when you go there, that false self you create with your facades of reasoning becomes exposed for what it truly is - false. You find your true Self, and that true Self is in fact your true Nature. It is a Realization through direct, unmediated experience. That, is contemplation, not 'thinking about the Bible'.

 

BTW, you do realize when you pray to the external God, that that is in fact the same thing as chanting? The effect is to focus the mind on God, on the Divine. You just externalize it all.

 

Are you doing what the atheists do, getting rid of freedom of choice so you won't have to obey God completely? We think with our minds and that is where God communicates with us.

"Obey God". Do even know what that means? You external this symbolically making God the Parent. One chooses to embrace their higher nature because good is better than evil. We "obey" higher truth within us. It's not necessary to put that on a sky-parent, unless you need that sort of thing still.

 

Aman said: And you can claim this, while I cannot?

 

Yup, you're on your way to committing spiritual suicide. Your "knowing" led you away from Christ so therefore it was false.

Really? How dare you. For all you know, this is Christ. That what Christ is, is seen in all religions, in the simple flower, the tree, the smile of a child, the love of a parent, the grace of human compassion. How dare you sit in God's throne and judge another. You offend God. You sadden me.

 

Are you trying to say what Obama said in his inauguration speech; "all paths lead to the same god"?

No. Some paths lead to narcissism and others to destruction. By their fruits you shall know them.

 

That said, I believe all paths that lead to good fruit are following that same path.

 

There are myriads of deceiving spirits out there, ask those people in India, I mean, 33 million gods? Ask the animists or the people in the Philippines who are slaves to the spirits.

Your ignorance is jarring.

 

The bible is a magical book and it does speak to open hearts.

And you just criticized Animism? There it is. You just spoke your thoughts. You too believe in Magic. That's why you cannot see anything I am saying. You are still thinking as a child. The Bible is not magical, any more than any other book which may contain wisdom teachings is. They speak to us because we are human.

 

Aman said: We are naturally, and rightly so, selfish. But as we mature that selfishness becomes less so. If we remain selfish as an adult, then we have not grown socially or spiritually. It is necessary, important and healthy as a stage of human development to be selfish at first. It is what allows the sense of 'self' identity to develop. Then as we mature, the egocentricism begins to include others outside us, into family identification, then social group identification, to community identification, and if you are mature enough, to global identification, all the way up to God-identification. Selfishness lessens the more mature we become.

 

So, no, it is not our Nature. It is part of normal healthy development, that like what I said about darkness in us, it must be superseded by our developing higher nature. We are not "selfish" in our nature. We are also selfless, in our higher nature. We are a whole, spiritual, person at various stages of growth.

 

You are defending selfishness?

Oh my god. Did you read what I said?? How do you take that as defending selfishness? I said it is part of a healthy stage of development for children, but as an adult who is still selfish, they are immature and need to grow up. Wow. I'm at a loss how you missed that, other than you didn't read it.

 

Can you picture how good this planet will be if everyone was selfless?

Yes indeed. We hope for that. The first place to start is to get rid of exclusionary religions, like the way you do in condemning others, like me. That's not too loving, is it?

[Antlerman]

Aman, are you sure you're on this planet? This planet is replete with selfish people! And it's NOT getting any better.

False. That is false. That is an illusion of perception. Please, if you want to have a dialog with me you need to educate yourself to the sorts of knoweldge I am accessing. Please listen to both of these youtube presentations, then come back to me and say this again if you can:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfvMejYxv5I

 

 

Humans need a transcendent moral absolute in order to shape their characters and form ethics.

Not by imposing it on them. Isn't Jesus the Good Shepherd? If you think imposing it on them is how it should work then your Jesus should be the Good Cow Rustler. No. People are transformed through an inner self-realization, not from having someone bash them in the head with a stick.

 

Again I say, Aman, are you on this planet and observing what is going on in it? Humans are NOT becoming more selfless!

One more video I will ask you to watch. This one is even more like my thinking. In fact it is like taking my skull cap off and staring right into how my brain thinks about these things, and the factual basis for them. We are not becoming more selfish, we are becoming less. Please watch this:

 

 

 

It would seem that you are proposing the type of belief system as Shirley Maclaine,

That's bloody nonsense. You are the opposite end of that spectrum of nonsense. Extremes.

 

or promoting the beliefs of the people in that atheistic "We are the World" song?

Atheistic song??? How?

 

The fact you condemn the sentiment expressed in that song, shows you embrace ugly. The words of the mouth speak the secrets of the heart.

 

 

P.S. When you said earlier that chanting OM is 'babbling', I'd like to give you an example. "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself". If you said this in prayer, to reflect and ponder its meaning in your heart would you call that "babbling"? Try this, if someone chant "Om Mani Padme Hum" how is that any different? Om Mani Padme Hum means this in really rough terms, God, Jewel, Lotus, Union. It means roughly all is from the source God, to the Jewel of the heart, extended in compassion to the world through us like the lotus unfolding, to return in indestructible union in the heart. In other worlds "Love God, love your neighbor as yourself." Babbling, according to Ms. Spiritual who judges others souls.

[Guest end3]

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So through meditation you connect with God. And if so, by what methodology? His, Its, yours? In other words, how could you or I define a relationship with God by our own method?

[Antlerman]

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So through meditation you connect with God. And if so, by what methodology? His, Its, yours? In other words, how could you or I define a relationship with God by our own method?

What methodology do you use to experience what is in your heart with your wife? Yours, Hers, Dr. Joyce's? How do you define a relationship with you wife by your own method?

 

This is a silly question End. How does one discover the knowledge that comes through eating an orange? By what methodology do you use? It's simple. Follow the injunction. Peel the orange; put it in your mouth, bite into it, taste it, experience it. Describe the experience. You can peel the orange with your hands, use a knife, tear at it with your teeth, split it open with a blow, etc. Those are simply forms of peeling the orange. The knowledge of the taste comes only one way. Tasting it. The methodology is irrelevant, only that some means of peeling the orange are more effective than others. Using a q-tip to peel it is relatively ineffective. How you can tell if the method is valid, is simple. Can you access the fruit?

 

Edit: Are you suggesting their is only one means for peeling an orange, holding with the left hand and peeling with the right; that this is God's way? What about people who are left handed?

[Guest end3]

I think you are missing the point perhaps. Either God exists in the essence of the created and we inherently recognize this and/or there exists a means by which the created will know the Creator by the Creator's means/methods. Inner self-realization might be a way to describe the former but I don't see this as just a fact of our existance. You?. My beef about your statement is you can't deny that a methodolgy is invalid if you are not the one who created the method....for example prayer or the Holy Spirit. Are they your methods or God's? If you subscribe to a creator God, then they certainly wouldn't be yours. Also, you seem to be denying your own experience......again.

 

So I was just asking if you felt like you were tapped into God through meditation.

[Antlerman]

I think you are missing the point perhaps. Either God exists in the essence of the created and we inherently recognize this and/or there exists a means by which the created will know the Creator by the Creator's means/methods.

These are assumptions stated as facts. I'm following you better here so let's see if I can attempt to explain. I don't agree with your either/or variables here. Let me just key in on the latter statement that you assume that there are prescribed means/methods. Not really. On what basis do you proclaim this other than some fidelity to some tenant of faith? As I said earlier, there are many ways to peel an orange, and what works best for the individual is the closest I would come to say is the 'prescribed way'. It is up to the individual to be true to what is in them. It is being authentic that matters, not which way the individual comes up with to help them being true to that.

 

Again, in thinking there is some prescribed way, is totally externalizing this. You need to look within. How, is a matter of what works for you, trying what works for others to see if it works for you, being creative yourself, modifying, etc. It doesn't matter how. That you eat the fruit however you get there, is what matters. Can you agree?

 

Inner self-realization might be a way to describe the former but I don't see this as just a fact of our existance. You?.

Not me either. Self-realization, your true Self is to understand your Nature, which is more than just your physical being. It is the essence of Being Itself, not just physical form.

 

My beef about your statement is you can't deny that a methodolgy is invalid if you are not the one who created the method....for example prayer or the Holy Spirit.

That is absolutely correct. If it works for you, if it produces fruit, then by all means embrace it, use it, practice it.

 

Are they your methods or God's?

Both. If they work for me to that end, then they are a partnership. It is a dance End.

 

If you subscribe to a creator God, then they certainly wouldn't be yours.

I don't like that term "creator God", it's full of wrong ideas. But aside from that, why wouldn't they be mine? Hypothetically, if I am created, then it is within me to respond to that source with what is essential to all of creation itself - creativity. It doesn't matter how the stream meets the Ocean, does it?

 

Also, you seem to be denying your own experience......again.

Not at all End. I have finally realized it.

 

So I was just asking if you felt like you were tapped into God through meditation.

I am realizing within myself what began this long journey of mine 30 years ago. Yes.

 

 

 

P.S. It's good to talk with you again.

[Guest end3]

What is within that is not given by, (I going to use "God" for this scenario) God? The particular story is irrelevant. If I have the authority to create every aspect of what we know as reality, then by definition, the mechanisms by which something manifests itself are mine, not its. So when you say look within, I try to examine the "Standard Book of Methods" aka the Bible in my case, and relate the unfolding of my life compared to that particular standard.

 

But, believe it or not, I do think we hold an inherent connection to God that moves us in discernment. I don't think that most people allow themselves to follow that. So essentially, within, I think, is valid, but again, one, it seems largely undefined as a methodology, and two, people are so used to being told not to trust that connection. I mean I can rationalize a proposed mechanism of prayer, or the Holy Spirit, but just accepting my life as knowing or having a connection without effort is unconventional. un churchy.

 

Yes, glad you're ok and excellent to visit with you as well.

[Antlerman]

What is within that is not given by, (I going to use "God" for this scenario) God? The particular story is irrelevant. If I have the authority to create every aspect of what we know as reality, then by definition, the mechanisms by which something manifests itself are mine, not its.

How so? You assume you are not it, and that the creative processes within you are not manifestations of it itself. You see yourself as separate. You are unique, but not independent in totality. You are not determined, but you respond to that nature within you through an act of will. As you choose what works in your uniqueness with that which is innate in you, it is not you, but you with other, which in reality is all one anyway. Dance is the best description I have. Partnership, big Self and little self.

 

So when you say look within, I try to examine the "Standard Book of Methods" aka the Bible in my case, and relate the unfolding of my life compared to that particular standard.

But that is another's experience. You have to look within, not without to find that Light. It exists in you, and cannot be accessed for yourself by looking at others. What you can do is read about others experiences, how they express that, what they did to find it, etc, but just repeating form, repeat the ritual, will in fact not give it to you. I can say that you should not denigrate or not accept your experiences because of some other persons understanding. So when you call the Bible a standard, I put up all sorts of red flags. The standard is Truth within. If it compares to the Bible, great. If it doesn't, it doesn't. You can, and should, go beyond the Bible or any other holy book. By that I mean that direct experience will always, always, go beyond merely being told about something or reading it. Anything processed through the reasoning mind is filtered and distorted and not Truth in the absolute sense. Therefore the Bible is not a 'standard'.

 

But, believe it or not, I do think we hold an inherent connection to God that moves us in discernment. I don't think that most people allow themselves to follow that. So essentially, within, I think, is valid, but again, one, it seems largely undefined as a methodology,

Methods and forms are nothing more than simple tools to help aide you in your internal search. When you begin to look to those as the door to take you there, then they become form for form's sake. They become a substitute experience. You experience the form and call that God. That is the very definition of being religious versus being spiritual. It is form for form's sake.

 

The form is secondary. They are like training wheels on a bicycle. Eventually you take them off and ride your bike free of them. They are the landing gear on a plane, that once it is lifted off into flight they are tucked away. If you look to the methods, you miss the goal. Use them, by all means, but do not look to them as the Truth itself. They are a means to an end.

 

There are many means, many paths to that end. If you or anyone claim otherwise, then they seem to themselves seeing the forms as the end itself, not every arriving themselves. The way, is the inner path, the symbols the methods, are secondary and eventual fall away once you are free. To hang onto them as salvation, is to miss salvation entirely.

 

and two, people are so used to being told not to trust that connection.

We are in full agreement. Just listen to what Thumbs says...

 

I mean I can rationalize a proposed mechanism of prayer, or the Holy Spirit, but just accepting my life as knowing or having a connection without effort is unconventional. un churchy.

Here's the thing. Yes, I agree with you, but believe me there is some effort required if you want to realize it in your life more than just unpredictable breaks in the sky. Practice. As you do, then you fly above the clouds and have a less obstructed view. But what works, is the real question. Is your method working? Do you need to perhaps modify it and adjust your way of thinking about things?

[Guest end3]

There are many means, many paths to that end. If you or anyone claim otherwise, then they seem to themselves seeing the forms as the end itself, not every arriving themselves. The way, is the inner path, the symbols the methods, are secondary and eventual fall away once you are free. To hang onto them as salvation, is to miss salvation entirely.

Well, I listened to a lot of good music today and bought some people's lunch. It does seem that the enjoyment of Love surpasses the mechanics of it all. You won't mind if I form a Christian branch of the Universal Church of Humanity. Lol.

 

But what works, is the real question. Is your method working? Do you need to perhaps modify it and adjust your way of thinking about things?

 

Best I can describe it is freedom to love within the Framework but also free of the framework. I don't know that I can let go, nor wish to, of my beliefs, but, but, I do think I see what you are saying as the framework keeping one tied to religion. Nor have I really considered, since I was a young man, of trusting myself to live within that freedom.

 

Good stuff K, thank you.

[Antlerman]

There are many means, many paths to that end. If you or anyone claim otherwise, then they seem to themselves seeing the forms as the end itself, not every arriving themselves. The way, is the inner path, the symbols the methods, are secondary and eventual fall away once you are free. To hang onto them as salvation, is to miss salvation entirely.

Well, I listened to a lot of good music today and bought some people's lunch. It does seem that the enjoyment of Love surpasses the mechanics of it all. You won't mind if I form a Christian branch of the Universal Church of Humanity. Lol.

Hey, that's really funny. I see you changed it on your profile. I actually had been thinking of changing that lately, but now I can't remember what I was thinking. It works.