Why I Am No Longer A Xian

[Vigile]

Atheism is neo paganism albeit in a slightly different garb. You, Par, Living Life et al are woo woos and you don't even know it

 

LOL

 

With this kind of mushy thinking, I can see why you are a believer. I'm sure you think atheists "believe" there is no god.

[bornagainathiest]

[One book from god for millions of xians to live by and bet their immortal souls on, and he lets some horny bad guy screw with it? Doesn't sound very all-powerful, or either no real bright.

 

Obviously the issue is not with Scripture - all of which is God-breathed. The issue is that twisted people twist the Scriptures for their own gain. In addition, many people do not apply themselves to rigorous study, and thus are easily duped by these twisted teachers. Is this not also true in the secular political world of ideas?

 

Don't forget - God created people as free moral agents.

 

But regarding a true understanding of Scripture, consistent with sound hermeneutics and historical orthodox Christianity >> there are many churches and denominations that are doctrinally sound and proclaim the Gospel faithfully. There are some differences, but not re: core Christian doctrines.

 

Presbyterians (PCA, OPC, some PCUSA), many - but not all - Baptist denominations, Sovereign Grace fellowships, churches in the Acts 29 network, the Harvest Bible Chapel network, Lutheran Church (Missouri & Wisconsin synods), independent Bible churches (though some have unhealthy legalism), Calvary Chapels, Assemblies of God, Southern Methodists, Bible Baptist churches, Mennonites, etc. all preach the Gospel.

 

So as you can see, there is diversity within the Christian community. Though there are some differences re: eschatology, sign gifts, covenants, church practices, etc - the Gospel remains the same. And organizations such as Together for the Gospel (T4G) and Gospel Coalition have been established to focus on and rally around the Gospel >> Salvation from sin by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, as taught in the Bible alone.

 

Any who would disagree with core Christianity would be heretical >> Catholicism, Mormonism (which even they admit is NOT Christian), Jehovah's Witness, Seventh-Day Adventists, many Methodists and Lutherans, those espousing liberation theology, Boston Church of Christ, etc. rely on works-righteousness which cannot save.

 

2 Peter 3:14–17 (ESV)

 

Final Words

14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

 

Acts 17:10–12 (ESV)

 

Paul and Silas in Berea

10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

 

Ray,

 

Your opinions on what a 'true understanding of scripture' is and who holds to it, are just that - your opinions.

Until you can provide some supporting arguments to back up your claims, all that you write is just so much hot air.

So, citing a list of 'approved' churches and denominations and then following this up with scripture is nothing more than a reworking of the 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy.

 

The onus is upon you to establish why these churches have the truth by first establishing what the this truth actually is. If you believe that the Bible holds the truth, then please direct your efforts to proving your case thru persuasion, not bald assertion. Simply cutting and pasting scripture does not accomplish this. You are just repeating and re-repeating the same, unproven assertion (that scripture is truth and by citing it, you are presenting the truth) without first dealing with the following, salient points.

 

Scripture by itself has no more authority over us than you do, which is to say, none at all.

We do not accept that it is God's truth - that is for you to prove via persuasive argument.

Unsupported assertions and appeals to authority are not acceptable forms of argument.

 

When you come up with the goods, than we might listen to what you say... not before.

 

BAA.

[par4dcourse]

I am saying that unstable (those not grounded in the faith) and unlearned (those who find some biblical teachings hard to understand) totally twist the scriptures to their own destruction.

 

There it is then. We unlearned, unstable atheists are getting it all wrong. Let's start a bible study group under Thumby, who obviously has it right.

 

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

I am saying that unstable (those not grounded in the faith) and unlearned (those who find some biblical teachings hard to understand) totally twist the scriptures to their own destruction.

 

There it is then. We unlearned, unstable atheists are getting it all wrong. Let's start a bible study group under Thumby, who obviously has it right.

 

Well Par4, I did ask her...

"What would you like to do in this forum, to address the shortcomings you and Ray see here?"

 

Perhaps you've answered that question for her?

 

BAA.

[Thackerie]

This ray person is like the rabid skunk at the picnic. Here we heathens were having a good time laughing at a great parable and this creep shows up to insult us and spew out yet more bible garble. Is he really stupid enough to think that this approach will win us back somehow? Or, is he just a nasty, abusive person oozing with anger?

 

Are you saying that you are willing to be won back into Christianity?... blah, blah, blah ...

 

WTF? NO! I'm not saying that at all. Your lack of reading comprehension is pathetic. I guess that's why you're still an obnoxious fundigelical.

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina: What I am TRYING to communicate is that people do not let the bible interpret/explain itself; they make up their own beliefs and take a text out of context and claim that is what the bible says. What they need to do is look at what the entire bible says on any given topic. If those Westboro people did that then they would not be so hateful toward unbelievers and they would not be taking on a prerogative that belongs only to God (judging/condemning others).

Then let me ask you. I come from a family where pretty 99.9% of them are Christians of different denominations. I was a member of a Pentecostal church when I grew up. I got "saved" at the age of 7. Baptized at 12. Spoke in tongues sometime around that time. Read the Bible through-and-through many times over, in several languages, and translations. Was subscribing to a Bible scholar newsletter (and read it diligently). Went to one year Bible school, reading the Bible many times over again, and memorized hundreds of verses. I have been to thousands of different meetings. Went on the mission field. Knocked on doors and evangelized. Spent some days praying and reading the Bible 24 hours. And much, much, much more... I was part of a prayer group who prayed during the meetings, for hours on end. I could write a book about all the things I did and how serious I took my faith.

 

Yet... you say I got it ALL WRONG. Well.. thank you so f-ing much. Not that you're extremely prejudiced and judgmental... oh no. You're so "good" when you judge people without knowing them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: I did not say you got it all wrong, Ouro, I am saying that you received certain erroneous teachings that were not based on sola scriptura and when that happens it increases the chance of one losing ones faith. I was/am NOT doubting your sincerity, OK? I see that you served A LOT within your church community however, I did not see you mention that you heard that still small voice of God and that you felt His presence nearand that you personally KNEW that He loved you.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The bible says we are evil -----------> http://bible.cc/matthew/7-11.htm; http://bible.cc/job/14-4.htmhttp://bible.cc/proverbs/20-9.htm ; If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. http://bible.cc/1_john/1-8.htm ; http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/6-36.htm ; http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/7-20.htm ; http://bible.cc/romans/3-23.htm ; http://bible.cc/isaiah/64-6.htm

 

 

 

Ouroboros: I don't care if we're good or not according to your belief. When I was Christian, I was a Christian and a believer. Your angle is that I wasn't. I don't consider your behavior or treatment of me any "good" at all. You're judging people without knowing them. And I find that extremely offensive.

 

Thumbelina: I was not talking about you or your situation when I wrote that. I was giving you an example of how to let the bible interpret itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: I politely disagree, Ouro. I know you are in pain and frustrated with life and to see your child hurting. I've seen Christians go through similar situations and they are able to empathize with God, God's son suffered tremendously because of lawlessness.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: How many handicapped people do you have in your church? Are you out there, helping them, doing dress changes on their deep-tissue bedsores, emptying their colostomy bags, or such? Do you know how to deal with such things 24-7-365? Do you know how to have you child almost dying once or twice a year?

 

 

Thumbelina: Handicapped people are everywhere and we do have sick and shut-ins. I don't have to take care of them personally for they are being cared for by hospice staffers. One sister with diabetes lost part of her foot and I admire her because she always seems so calm and collected. I can't handle those medical issues, I become squeamish and weak. I definitely admire you as a man AND a father for what you do. I knew you had a handicapped child but I did not realize the extent of his suffering to this day; my heart goes out to you. I have a church sister whose adult son became paralyzed overnight and it was out of the blue it would seem. He turned blind too and after awhile all he could make out is shadows but he still can't see. It is quite frustrating to see others hurting and to feel scared and helpless and all the more for the people who are closely involved with the suffering person.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: That is a very long time, man. I hope God takes care of your situation in a way that you will be comforted.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: If there is a miracle, I'll let you know. So get to it. Pray to your idol Jesus and see if it works.

 

Thumbelina: Ouro, I know are are hurting so deeply right now but I do not understand your reasoning.; did you belong to one of those faith healing churches? I do pray for you and my heart is doing that thing where I feel all achy for you and your situation and I am like "God, can't you do something for them" but it is up to God. I even told someone else in my home about your situation and we prayed. If you don't mind me asking, how does your son cope with his handicap, does he get depressed?

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: I think that your lack of understanding about pain and suffering while you were still a Christian helped you lose your belief but cursing God is not the answer. He can see you through if you allow Him to and not give up even if it has been a long time with your trails.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: I don't think you know even the beginning.

 

Your judgmental attitude is extremely annoying and upsetting.

 

 

Thumbelina: I don't mean to upset you, I read your testimony and you said you lost faith gradually, you felt that your prayers weren't being answered. I am trying to understand why you became an unbeliever.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: I know you see what I say as just words but I truly do not understand disbelief; I would die without God.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: I thought so too, 10 years ago.

 

 

Thumbelina: To me that's scary, I need the hope that the Christian God gives.

[Thumbelina]

Ouro, you just won't get it. From a Christian perspective, Atheism is under the umbrella of neo paganism. Atheists just don't realize it.

That's just extremely DUMB.

 

Then, I can tell you, in the atheist perspective, Christianity is under the umbrella of paganism too. It's based on a belief in human sacrifice, drinking blood, and a God who punishes people for his own satisfaction.

 

I see in your list atheists tend to adhere to some of the doctrines of pagans.

What? Like what? You're the one who is a pagan.

 

Anyho, this song explains what I mean: ... . Atheism is under the pagan umbrella. Christians believe that Satan will be allowed to manifest himself more openly in latter times; atheists will fall for his tricks when they SEE his "miracles".

Eh?

 

Then let you stupid God show his miracles instead!? Duh! Basically, you're just saying that anyone who doesn't believe EXACTLY in YOUR version of God, they're pagans and evil.

 

My head hurts from all this stupidity. Sorry. I just can't argue with you. And I can't show you any sympathy or empathy after all the arrogance you have shown.

 

Your attitude is really, really upsetting.

 

And when it comes to that stupid video, it was never the money, fame, glory, or all the other Christian bullshit blah blah that made me turn away. So... wrong again. Get it right, or just stop judging people.

 

Even as a Christian, I had brain enough to understand the difference between paganism and atheism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want to argue this with you , especially since you are going through an extremely tough time. You shouldn't be reading these controversial posts atm. Par and some others seem to like a little controversy so I sometimes spice things up a little since we are in the den. One thing I need to clarify, it is not my version of God or any private interpretation of God but it is what the bible which I adhere to, says about Him. I am not judging individuals,I look at different systems and teachings and I see Satan's deceptions in them; you bet your bottom dollar that paganism infiltrated Christianity; it happened then and is happening now.

 

 

 

 

 

Hey you added more of your thoughts to this post. You did not understand the video at all, Ouro. It says Satan has temptations for EVERYONE in order to keep their eyes off of eternity. For SOME he gives transient pleasures and for SOME he causes calamity (that's your situation) . He studies us and works on our weaknesses to get us to fall.

 

 

 

P.S. What's a Multiversalist?

[Thumbelina]

It takes a meek, teachable heart AND a willingness to endure no matter what to understand the gospel and that God wants to secure us for eternity.

 

This is exactly what is required by dictators, oppressors, abusive parents and spouses, and anyone wishing to maintain power over an individual. Teachers allow questions and opinions from their students. Teachers speak with clarity by making sure their language is precise, so the subject can be understood. The burden is on the teacher to deliver the subject to the students. If any student doesn't "get it", it is the teacher's failure, not the student's. No meekness, "teachable hearts" or endurance required.

 

 

Hey Agi, what's up? Could you explain the gist of these verses please:

 

 

 

And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? http://bible.cc/mark/8-17.htm Mark 8:17

 

 

 

 

 

And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 

http://bible.cc/mark/4-13.htm Mark 4:13

 

 

 

 

 

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. http://bible.cc/matthew/13-16.htm Matthew 13:16

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

 

http://bible.cc/luke/8-10.htm Luke 8:10

 

 

 

 

 

And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. http://bible.cc/mark/4-9.htm Mark 4:9

 

 

 

 

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: http://bible.cc/john/10-27.htm John 10:27

[Thumbelina]

I am saying that unstable (those not grounded in the faith) and unlearned (those who find some biblical teachings hard to understand) totally twist the scriptures to their own destruction.

 

There it is then. We unlearned, unstable atheists are getting it all wrong. Let's start a bible study group under Thumby, who obviously has it right.

 

Hey Par, didn't you read your own anti-parable? You said you did not understand certain things when you were at church. Of course you atheists are unstable, c'mon, no God? Y'all are nuts.

[Thumbelina]

Ouroboros, you have the patience of a saint! No, really. If I were in your shoes, I think my reaction would be pretty nasty! You are an admirable person.

 

The last time I had a convo' with Ouroboros about suffering there was a naughty duo that was trying to put words in his mouth; now here you come doing the same thing. What are you guys the unholy trinity? I had to shake a finger at them so maybe I need to shake one at you? I dunno. Quit it man, you're being a meanie.

[Ouroboros]

Hey you added more of your thoughts to this post. You did not understand the video at all, Ouro. It says Satan has temptations for EVERYONE in order to keep their eyes off of eternity. For SOME he gives transient pleasures and for SOME he causes calamity (that's your situation) . He studies us and works on our weaknesses to get us to fall.

When I lost my faith, it wasn't a temptation or one single reason. It was a slow and very long process of feeling abandoned, alone, powerless, and failing in faith. I prayed to God to strengthen my faith for a long time. I prayed and read the Bible, but my faith only got weaker. I couldn't feel God's presence. I couldn't see God's existence in nature or Bible or anywhere. I just didn't feel, experience, think or believe God in any sense, shape, or form. And I still asked God to give me more faith. It never happened. I waited. I hoped. But all my faith and belief was gone, and eventually even hope was gone. I'm still waiting for God to give me faith and belief in him, but it's not happening. I just don't believe. My "believe" center in the brain basically shut off, and I couldn't do anything about it. Whatever cells in the brain that used to like to fantasize about all these religious ideas went bye-bye, and they're gone. If you truly want me to believe, then you have to ask your God to restore those cells. Simple. My brain just doesn't have the functionality or ability to believe in a magical infinite-size-brain guy somewhere in a 7th dimension. And one way to break that "temptation" as you call it, is to show me that God exists, not talk about it. I want to see it, not hear about the ideas and theories. I'm a hands-on guy. I'm somewhat a tactile learner, so I need the practice and experience on top of the formulas and recipes. I learn how to cook by cooking, not by hearing you talking about how fabulous your food is in church. And I can only believe if I see God actually do something for once. One thing your God could do would be to speed up the healing of my son's bedsores. He got several, and they're deep. They've gone down to the bone. This is deadly. He has to have a surgery within a couple of weeks by some of the most skilled experts in the area (expensive, and out of pocket because insurance won't cover it, but we'll probably make them pay it anyway). So if you want to help, make those bedsore go away. My wife has to spend a couple of hours each day cleaning those wounds and repacking them. Nasty and dangerous job. He got several infections in there, and one of them could be dangerous for us too. Now. Show me the money. Show me where your God is. I'm tempting you to do work for God. Will you? Will God come through for you? Or are you just another one of those Christians who only talk about God but can never give experience of God?

 

And when it comes to what God does and doesn't do. It's interesting that the only time we hear about God doing things today is when he punishes America in hurricanes and earthquakes. Or when he sends tsunamis to countries because they've sinned. That's your God. But he can't be tempted by healing someone, even though Jesus said he would do it. He was lying. Or do you interpret Jesus's words about healing and prayer to be only figuratively?

 

You criticize the "healing" movement in Christianity, but are failing to understand that those movements are interpreting the Bible literally. They're not wrong in their interpretation, they're just wrong in believing that the Bible is true.

 

---

 

P.S. What's a Multiversalist?

I believe (yes believe, not know) that there are an infinite number of universes, and this one is just one of them. I believe the world came about naturally, and new worlds are coming about as we speak in that multiverse. If there is a "God" of any kind, it's the World, including all the worlds. Nature is the most powerful thing that is.

[Thumbelina]

Looks like the only lesson some Ex-Christians retained was from the Book of Job.

Oh, believe me that I thought about Job many times before losing my faith.

 

The funny thing about job, he lost his wife, kids, livestock, etc. And God restored all those things. Good for Job. But what about his kids and wife in Hell? What about all the innocent livestock killed by disasters just to make God win the bet? How awful! Right?

 

Where does it say Job lost his wife? God will restore this earth to its pre sin pristine condition so no worries.

[Ouroboros]

Looks like the only lesson some Ex-Christians retained was from the Book of Job.

Oh, believe me that I thought about Job many times before losing my faith.

 

The funny thing about job, he lost his wife, kids, livestock, etc. And God restored all those things. Good for Job. But what about his kids and wife in Hell? What about all the innocent livestock killed by disasters just to make God win the bet? How awful! Right?

 

Where does it say Job lost his wife? God will restore this earth to its pre sin pristine condition so no worries.

Sorry, it was his sons and daughters only. Yeah. That's not so bad. God kills his kids to prove a point. It would be much worse if he also killed his wife... (/sarc)

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Hey you added more of your thoughts to this post. You did not understand the video at all, Ouro. It says Satan has temptations for EVERYONE in order to keep their eyes off of eternity. For SOME he gives transient pleasures and for SOME he causes calamity (that's your situation) . He studies us and works on our weaknesses to get us to fall.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: When I lost my faith, it wasn't a temptation or one single reason. It was a slow and very long process ...

 

 

Thumbelina: Yes, that is usually how it happens, imperceptively, gradually and then ... . I need to learn from you guys because it is terrible to lose faith; I heard so many on here say how painful it was for them. As the video says, Satan wants us to lose focus, I need to take heed to this warning: http://bible.cc/luke/21-34.htm Luke 21:34

 

 

Ouroboros: .... of feeling abandoned, alone, powerless, and failing in faith. I prayed to God to strengthen my faith for a long time. I prayed and read the Bible, but my faith only got weaker. I couldn't feel God's presence. I couldn't see God's existence in nature or Bible or anywhere. I just didn't feel, experience, think or believe God in any sense, shape, or form. And I still asked God to give me more faith. It never happened. I waited. I hoped. But all my faith and belief was gone, and eventually even hope was gone. I'm still waiting for God to give me faith and belief in him, but it's not happening. I just don't believe. My "believe" center in the brain basically shut off, and I couldn't do anything about it. Whatever cells in the brain that used to like to fantasize about all these religious ideas went bye-bye, and they're gone. If you truly want me to believe, then you have to ask your God to restore those cells. Simple. My brain just doesn't have the functionality or ability to believe in a magical infinite-size-brain guy somewhere in a 7th dimension.

 

 

Thumbelina: I feel so sad about this and I was not trying to be rude to you earlier but what you wrote above is why I said you did not understand (and therefore did not internalize) certain biblical themes (conflict between Christ and Satan). Many X Xtians express the same sentiments as you but I cannot identify with that ( I have not been where you,Dave and some others were), when I have my quiet time with God and especially when I am anxious His word speaks to my heart and I am comforted. God gave all of us a measure of faith but the pounding you got from Satan took its toll on you, I am sorry. Christians ought to have a burden for others and we need to pray for you guys and especially you with what you are going through.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: And one way to break that "temptation" as you call it, is to show me that God exists, not talk about it. I want to see it, not hear about the ideas and theories. I'm a hands-on guy. I'm somewhat a tactile learner, so I need the practice and experience on top of the formulas and recipes. I learn how to cook by cooking, not by hearing you talking about how fabulous your food is in church. And I can only believe if I see God actually do something for once.

 

 

Thumbelina: God operates through paradoxes, Ouro. The bible says: "O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him." http://bible.cc/psalms/34-8.htm . Right now with your emotional state I don't want to go into bible texts that show that you need to exercise the little bit of faith that is somehow inherent in us. What I do know is you do need prayers and lots of it, I do wish that God will make it better for you and especially your son.

 

 

 

 

 

Ouroboros: One thing your God could do would be to speed up the healing of my son's bedsores. He got several, and they're deep. They've gone down to the bone. This is deadly. He has to have a surgery within a couple of weeks by some of the most skilled experts in the area (expensive, and out of pocket because insurance won't cover it, but we'll probably make them pay it anyway). So if you want to help, make those bedsore go away. My wife has to spend a couple of hours each day cleaning those wounds and repacking them. Nasty and dangerous job. He got several infections in there, and one of them could be dangerous for us too. Now. Show me the money. Show me where your God is. I'm tempting you to do work for God. Will you? Will God come through for you? Or are you just another one of those Christians who only talk about God but can never give experience of God?

 

 

 

Thumbelina: No wonder you are highly upset and frustrated, that poor fellow So sorry, Ouro. You and your wife are really strong. I do hate to see you guys tormented so but unlike those faith healers, I cannot give false hope, God is ultimately in charge of your situation. I truly hope He does something and soon.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: And when it comes to what God does and doesn't do. It's interesting that the only time we hear about God doing things today is when he punishes America in hurricanes and earthquakes. Or when he sends tsunamis to countries because they've sinned. That's your God. But he can't be tempted by healing someone, even though Jesus said he would do it. He was lying. Or do you interpret Jesus's words about healing and prayer to be only figuratively?

 

You criticize the "healing" movement in Christianity, but are failing to understand that those movements are interpreting the Bible literally. They're not wrong in their interpretation, they're just wrong in believing that the Bible is true.

 

Thumbelina: I did say that those fire and brimstone praechers are not preaching the gospel, in one of my previous posts. If they will let the bible explain itself they would see that calamity comes to believers as well as unbelievers or to the people who sin less or more. So just rightly quote scritures to those mean people eg Jesus said:

 

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?"

 

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

http://bible.cc/luke/13-4.htm http://bible.cc/luke/13-5.htm

 

 

 

Satan causes a lot of misery and humans tend to blame God. We tend to not invite God in our lives and Satan tends to have first dibs on us.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with healing, Jesus did a lot of it and it still occurs, however, God's goal is to secure us for eternity and through certain paradoxes He will actually achieve this.

 

I hope yoou come out triumphant in your situation.

[Ouroboros]

Thumbelina: Yes, that is usually how it happens, imperceptively, gradually and then ... .

And that's my point. It wasn't really about misinterpreting the Bible. I tried to re-interpret the Bible to fit my life and situation, but there were no interpretation that gave me comfort. And the Bible didn't interpret itself either. It wasn't a help for me anymore. And God didn't answer, not even any feeling or emotion of God being there.

 

I need to learn from you guys because it is terrible to lose faith; I heard so many on here say how painful it was for them. As the video says, Satan wants us to lose focus, I need to take heed to this warning: http://bible.cc/luke/21-34.htm Luke 21:34

The problem here is that because you're so embedded in your faith and religion, there is no chance at all that you will ever understand why and how people leave Christianity. So the best thing you can do is to not make up explanations that are wrong. You will turn people away when you misunderstand them and their background. You can't assume that you will ever reach someone like me as long as you make up your own stories and explanation about me and my life.

 

The way to connect to someone, is to accept their own explanations, not make up your own. Until you learn that lesson, you will not have any results of connecting. You have to accept who they are. Not make them into something you want them to be. And that's why some Christians upset me, because they keep on making up their own little fantasy stories about other people, try to explain the how, when, and why. My suggestion to you: don't do that.

 

Thumbelina: I did say that those fire and brimstone praechers are not preaching the gospel, in one of my previous posts. If they will let the bible explain itself they would see that calamity comes to believers as well as unbelievers or to the people who sin less or more. So just rightly quote scritures to those mean people eg Jesus said:

 

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?"

 

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Then how do you interpret:

 

“For with God nothing will be impossible.” (Luke 1:37)

 

But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:27)

 

“Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us.” (Ephesians 3:20)

 

“If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you.” (Exodus 15:26)

 

“And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.” (Deuteronomy 7:15)

 

“So you shall serve the Lord your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you. No one shall suffer miscarriage or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.” (Exodus 23:25)

 

“He sent His word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.” (Psalm 107:20)

 

“He also brought them out with silver and gold, and there was none feeble among His tribes.” (Psalm 105:37)

 

“Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases …” (Psalm 103:2)

 

“Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all. He guards all his bones; not one of them is broken.” (Psalm 34:19)

 

“For I will restore health to you and heal you of your wounds,” says the Lord. (Jeremiah 30:17)

 

“O Lord my God, I cried out to You, and You have healed me.” (Psalm 30:2)

 

“He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds … Great is our Lord, and mighty in power …” (Psalm 147:3)

 

“And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4:19)

 

“But those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing.” (Psalm 34:10)

 

“For the Lord is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly.” (Psalm 84:11)

 

“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10)

 

Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee … “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” (Luke 4:14,18)

 

“… how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38)

 

“But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there; and great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.” (Matthew 12:15)

 

“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.” (Matthew 14:14)

 

“Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.” (Luke 5:17)

 

“And when the men of that place recognized Him, they sent out into all that surrounding region, brought to Him all who were sick, and begged Him that they might only touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched it were made perfectly well.” (Matthew 14:35)

 

“… who came to hear Him and be healed of their diseases, as well as those who were tormented with unclean spirits. And they were healed. And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.” (Luke 6:17)

 

“But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.” (Luke 9:11)

 

“When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.” (Matthew 8:16)

 

“Now Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of diseases among the people.” (Matthew 4:23)

 

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:15)

 

“Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.” (Luke 9:1)

 

“And He called the twelve to Him, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits … And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.” (Mark 6:7,13)

 

“And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.” (Matthew 10:1)

 

“But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” (Matthew 10:6)

 

“Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.” (Acts 19:11)

 

“And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid hands on him and healed him.” (Acts 28:8)

 

“And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.” (Acts 8:6)

 

“Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.” (Acts 14:3)

 

“And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:19)

 

“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

 

For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” (1 Corinthians 12:4)

 

“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray.” (James 5:13)

 

“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.” (James 5:14)

 

And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him.” (Acts 28:8)

 

“The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.” (James 5:16)

 

“Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16)

 

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” (Matthew 7:7)

 

“Yet you do not have because you do not ask.” (James 4:2)

 

“And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You …” (Isaiah 64:7)

 

“So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.” (Ezekiel 22:30)

 

“He saw that there was no man, and wondered there was no intercessor; therefore His own arm brought salvation for him …” (Isaiah 59:16)

 

“Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them.” (Psalm 106:23)

All of them relate to:

1. pray and you shall receive

2. pray in faith and you will have it

3. pray for healing and you will get it

4. God wants to heal you

5. God can heal you.

 

And there are many, many more verses of the same kind.

 

Or take this one:

Matt 6:

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

---

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

 

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

I lived by these verses. I didn't worry. I prayed for God's protection and guidance every day.

 

And here's one kicker. The night when my family were almost killed, it was the night when three (me included) very strongly Bible believing Christians prayed (before the trip) that God would protect my family and guide them out of any danger. Two hours later... they hit a roll of steel and then hit behind by an 18-wheeler in full speed. The car was demolished. My kids screaming in pain and bleeding. My three oldest sons had broken spines. My third oldest had broken spine in three places, shredded nerves, damaged intestines, and much much more.

 

And how? Or why? Because God cares for the birds and he guides us out of danger... Yeah. Right.

 

So how's my interpretation wrong? Oh, I see. Those verses should only be interpreted as true when you play Dungeons and Dragons, not real life. Because in real life, they don't mean what they mean.

 

The verses are self-explanatory. They interpret themselves. They only apply when you're fantasizing about Neverland or when you play Fallout III on X-Box...

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina: Yes, that is usually how it happens, imperceptively, gradually and then ... .

And that's my point. It wasn't really about misinterpreting the Bible. I tried to re-interpret the Bible to fit my life and situation, but there were no interpretation that gave me comfort. And the Bible didn't interpret itself either. It wasn't a help for me anymore. And God didn't answer, not even any feeling or emotion of God being there.

 

I need to learn from you guys because it is terrible to lose faith; I heard so many on here say how painful it was for them. As the video says, Satan wants us to lose focus, I need to take heed to this warning: http://bible.cc/luke/21-34.htm Luke 21:34

The problem here is that because you're so embedded in your faith and religion, there is no chance at all that you will ever understand why and how people leave Christianity. So the best thing you can do is to not make up explanations that are wrong. You will turn people away when you misunderstand them and their background. You can't assume that you will ever reach someone like me as long as you make up your own stories and explanation about me and my life.

 

The way to connect to someone, is to accept their own explanations, not make up your own. Until you learn that lesson, you will not have any results of connecting. You have to accept who they are. Not make them into something you want them to be. And that's why some Christians upset me, because they keep on making up their own little fantasy stories about other people, try to explain the how, when, and why. My suggestion to you: don't do that.

 

 

 

 

 

Ouro, it would seem that we are talking two different languages to each other. I do not agree with what you say and that is only because I use the Bible as canon (a measuring rod for right and wrong) and human nature is basically the same. Most skeptics I talk to just want me to nod and agree with everything they say. Actually I have a Christian that is doing that to me right now, he is justifying actions from his past that the bible calls sins and he plans on committing the same type of sin if the opportunity presents itself and no one is supposed to disagree with him. What I do realize and agree with you on is that I should not be so subjective in my discussions with skeptics.

 

I'm still feeling really bad/sad about your situation.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: I did say that those fire and brimstone preachers are not preaching the gospel, in one of my previous posts. If they will let the bible explain itself they would see that calamity comes to believers as well as unbelievers or to the people who sin less or more. So just rightly quote scriptures to those mean people eg Jesus said:

 

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?"

 

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

 

 

Ouroboros: Then how do you interpret:

 

 

 

 

“For with God nothing will be impossible.” (Luke 1:37)

 

But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:27)

 

“Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us.” (Ephesians 3:20)

 

“If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you.” (Exodus 15:26)

 

“And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.” (Deuteronomy 7:15)

 

“So you shall serve the Lord your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you. No one shall suffer miscarriage or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.” (Exodus 23:25)

 

“He sent His word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.” (Psalm 107:20)

 

“He also brought them out with silver and gold, and there was none feeble among His tribes.” (Psalm 105:37)

 

“Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases …” (Psalm 103:2)

 

“Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all. He guards all his bones; not one of them is broken.” (Psalm 34:19)

 

“For I will restore health to you and heal you of your wounds,” says the Lord. (Jeremiah 30:17)

 

“O Lord my God, I cried out to You, and You have healed me.” (Psalm 30:2)

 

“He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds … Great is our Lord, and mighty in power …” (Psalm 147:3)

 

“And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4:19)

 

“But those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing.” (Psalm 34:10)

 

“For the Lord is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly.” (Psalm 84:11)

 

“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10)

 

Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee … “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” (Luke 4:14,18)

 

“… how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38)

 

“But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there; and great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.” (Matthew 12:15)

 

“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.” (Matthew 14:14)

 

“Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.” (Luke 5:17)

 

“And when the men of that place recognized Him, they sent out into all that surrounding region, brought to Him all who were sick, and begged Him that they might only touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched it were made perfectly well.” (Matthew 14:35)

 

“… who came to hear Him and be healed of their diseases, as well as those who were tormented with unclean spirits. And they were healed. And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.” (Luke 6:17)

 

“But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.” (Luke 9:11)

 

“When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.” (Matthew 8:16)

 

“Now Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of diseases among the people.” (Matthew 4:23)

 

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:15)

 

“Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.” (Luke 9:1)

 

“And He called the twelve to Him, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits … And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.” (Mark 6:7,13)

 

“And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.” (Matthew 10:1)

 

“But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” (Matthew 10:6)

 

“Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.” (Acts 19:11)

 

“And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid hands on him and healed him.” (Acts 28:8)

 

“And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.” (Acts 8:6)

 

“Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.” (Acts 14:3)

 

“And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:19)

 

“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

 

For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” (1 Corinthians 12:4)

 

“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray.” (James 5:13)

 

“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.” (James 5:14)

 

And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him.” (Acts 28:8)

 

“The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.” (James 5:16)

 

“Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16)

 

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” (Matthew 7:7)

 

“Yet you do not have because you do not ask.” (James 4:2)

 

“And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You …” (Isaiah 64:7)

 

“So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.” (Ezekiel 22:30)

 

“He saw that there was no man, and wondered there was no intercessor; therefore His own arm brought salvation for him …” (Isaiah 59:16)

 

“Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them.” (Psalm 106:23)

 

 

 

All of them relate to:

1. pray and you shall receive

2. pray in faith and you will have it

3. pray for healing and you will get it

4. God wants to heal you

5. God can heal you.

 

And there are many, many more verses of the same kind.

 

Or take this one:

 

 

Quote

 

 

Matt 6:

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

---

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

 

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Oh my God, literally. Were you fed all of that by faith healers and name it and claim it preachers? It is not as cut and dried as that. A lot of the verses you cited do have bible promises for healing that believers can claim and some of them have nothing to do with healing at all. The bible has themes that overlap with each other, God does want us to prosper and be in good health as our souls prosper. Many times people bring diseases upon themselves by ignoring health principles. However, that was not your situation, you were victims of calamity and the consequences are far reaching.

 

Now, N.B. I DO NOT WANT YOU TO GET UPSET OK? I am going to relay to you a man's testimony about when tragedy struck his family. He was a simple carpenter (go figure) and a Christian too; he had a wife, two step daughters and a daughter with his wife. One day he got news that his wife and daughter got in a car accident down the road from their house. He ran to the scene and he went looking for his wife who was thrown from the car, when he found her she was dead. His daughter had a broken arm and he had to break the news to his daughter. He said a lot of well-meaning Christians came by to give their condolences and a lot of them were misinterpreting the bible and saying that God took away his wife or that God needed another singer for His angel choir (the man's wife and children sang Christian music). The man was very upset because he knows it was not God that killed his wife, however because he was highly upset about what those well-meaning people were saying, he felt impressed by God to get a TV station that will reach the entire world with the gospel. He was a simple carpenter with no educational background in TV but he did it, with God's leading. Because of him, millions are coming to know the gospel. God allowed the devil to do dirty but a lot of people will be saved ETERNALLY from that man's tragedy. Now, if that never happened that man would probably never have had the passion to build a TV studio to reach millions.

 

 

Us fallen humans sometimes have to get uncomfortable or go through tragedy in order to spur us into action. When I had just gotten baptized, Ol' Luci' (Satan) made me get some turbulence in my home and as a result I left for awhile. I stayed with my aunt and grandmother and I was excited about my beliefs and I was preaching to them. My aunt did not care but my grandma was listening. I told her that her Pastor was misinterpreting the bible and she needs to find the truth. Me and my tactless self even told her "I have more faith than your Pastor, isn't he supposed to be a leader?" Anyway he could not refute my sola scriptura, my grandmother stopped attending the church and I asked her why. She realized that the Pastor takes texts out of contexts to support his beliefs; I naively told her that she should not keep away from church so she started attending again. After I returned home my mom sent her a book to read that espouses sound biblical positions and my grandmother then left that church and joined the church I went to when I moved there. I said all of that to say this, my grandma got away from deception by me having trouble in my life (if I did not have trouble I NEVER would have moved) and going there and preaching to her and planting a seed. God would like us to live without trouble but when we don't have trouble we get complacent and that can cause our eternal ruin.

 

Ouro, I know you can't see what I said above yet.

 

I have been reading about bed sores and darn it, I am at a loss for words. I so wish there was something I can do. I had a little one in my house who had a temp of 104 at the time that the swine flu was going around, I prayed and cried and asked God for a doctor that tells the truth because I think they might have been hyping up that flu and the vaccines may not be safe. The doctor pooh poohed and said "Swine flu is rare!"

 

 

Ouroboros: I lived by these verses. I didn't worry. I prayed for God's protection and guidance every day.

 

And here's one kicker. The night when my family were almost killed, it was the night when three (me included) very strongly Bible believing Christians prayed (before the trip) that God would protect my family and guide them out of any danger. Two hours later... they hit a roll of steel and then hit behind by an 18-wheeler in full speed. The car was demolished. My kids screaming in pain and bleeding. My three oldest sons had broken spines. My third oldest had broken spine in three places, shredded nerves, damaged intestines, and much much more.

 

And how? Or why? Because God cares for the birds and he guides us out of danger... Yeah. Right.

 

So how's my interpretation wrong? Oh, I see. Those verses should only be interpreted as true when you play Dungeons and Dragons, not real life. Because in real life, they don't mean what they mean.

 

The verses are self-explanatory. They interpret themselves. They only apply when you're fantasizing about Neverland or when you play Fallout III on X-Box...

 

 

Thumbelina: Satan must have been really angry with you, attacking your family like that. I could imagine how scared you were. Satan is MAD/crazy and he attacks anybody. I do not know the map of your life plan but I believe that God has the blueprint and He knows the outcome. A lot of people who went through trials similar to yours did get through it and got stronger because of it. One of our evangelists got news of his son being crushed to death by a tractor or truck(I don't remember) when the evangelist was far away doing evangelism. When I heard about his story , I was like, "No fair!" but then he is in the spotlight and because of his unswerving faith, many more people will be won for Christ. Again I say, the goal is not mainly to be happy in this life but to secure salvation. Again , me telling you this is NOT meant to upset you but to show that others can identify with you.

 

You have to look at the bible in a BALANCED way. There are many verses that basically say that ALL who live Godly SHALL suffer persecution. Most of the disciples were martyred but they will be granted eternal life.

[Ouroboros]

Thumbelina: Oh my God, literally. Were you fed all of that by faith healers and name it and claim it preachers? It is not as cut and dried as that.

So it's not self-explanatory or self-interpreting after all. YOU have to interpret the literal verses into something that they're not saying, just to find excuses to make them not mean what they literally mean...

 

Anyway, the healing wasn't the issue to why I lost my faith. It was the emotional healing in me, in my wife, in my kids, that were lacking. God doesn't answer those prayers either. You can't ask God for comfort or strengthening of you faith. Why? Because he won't do that either. He doesn't heal. He doesn't do shit. Why? Because he doesn't exist. Very simple answer. Maybe you will understand that one day too.

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina: Oh my God, literally. Were you fed all of that by faith healers and name it and claim it preachers? It is not as cut and dried as that.

So it's not self-explanatory or self-interpreting after all. YOU have to interpret the literal verses into something that they're not saying, just to find excuses to make them not mean what they literally mean...

 

Anyway, the healing wasn't the issue to why I lost my faith. It was the emotional healing in me, in my wife, in my kids, that were lacking. God doesn't answer those prayers either. You can't ask God for comfort or strengthening of you faith. Why? Because he won't do that either. He doesn't heal. He doesn't do shit. Why? Because he doesn't exist. Very simple answer. Maybe you will understand that one day too.

 

You are just not getting the concept of the bible being self explanatory with the HS leading . I respectfully disagree with you about God not answering prayers but I do understand how you feel when you are suffering so. God was/is real to me and I pray that he ALWAYS let me remember the good times we had together.

[Ouroboros]

Thumbelina: Oh my God, literally. Were you fed all of that by faith healers and name it and claim it preachers? It is not as cut and dried as that.

So it's not self-explanatory or self-interpreting after all. YOU have to interpret the literal verses into something that they're not saying, just to find excuses to make them not mean what they literally mean...

 

Anyway, the healing wasn't the issue to why I lost my faith. It was the emotional healing in me, in my wife, in my kids, that were lacking. God doesn't answer those prayers either. You can't ask God for comfort or strengthening of you faith. Why? Because he won't do that either. He doesn't heal. He doesn't do shit. Why? Because he doesn't exist. Very simple answer. Maybe you will understand that one day too.

 

You are just not getting the concept of the bible being self explanatory with the HS leading .

But that's not self-explanatory, is it? It's Holy-Spirit-Explanatory, if anything.

 

So, are you suggesting that I didn't have the Holy Spirit?

 

The problem was that I didn't hear the HS. I needed to hear God, or get a feeling, when I was in need, but I didn't... at all... still waiting many years later.

 

If God exists, then it's God who chose to let himself unknown and absent. I tried. I seriously tried for many years to keep my faith. But of course you will deny such a thing because you believe it's impossible.

 

I respectfully disagree with you about God not answering prayers but I do understand how you feel when you are suffering so. God was/is real to me and I pray that he ALWAYS let me remember the good times we had together.

The day you end up in trouble and God is not answering... you'll start wondering about your belief. When it keeps on happening for years, you start doubting. When you ask God to help you overcome the doubts, and nothing happens, you lost faith.

[AlphaToOmega]

You are just not getting the concept of the bible being self explanatory with the HS leading . I respectfully disagree with you about God not answering prayers but I do understand how you feel when you are suffering so. God was/is real to me and I pray that he ALWAYS let me remember the good times we had together.

 

Hey, I'm like thinking, I'm a nice guy could do with a few dollars.

Any chance you could pray that God gets me ohh, say $20,000 from unexpected sources real quick like?

I promise I'll be good.

Even pay him back by charitable donations.

I'm placing a car loan for a Dodge I need over the phone as I type I'm so confident he won't let me down.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[agnosticator]

It takes a meek, teachable heart AND a willingness to endure no matter what to understand the gospel and that God wants to secure us for eternity.

 

This is exactly what is required by dictators, oppressors, abusive parents and spouses, and anyone wishing to maintain power over an individual. Teachers allow questions and opinions from their students. Teachers speak with clarity by making sure their language is precise, so the subject can be understood. The burden is on the teacher to deliver the subject to the students. If any student doesn't "get it", it is the teacher's failure, not the student's. No meekness, "teachable hearts" or endurance required.

 

 

 

Could you explain the gist of these verses please:<SNIP>

 

Yes, I understood the parables, and was led by God to understand the mysteries of the kingdom. He led me out of christianity and into the light of truth. This is what I was led to:

 

God is the mystery of life. All living things are made of the same matter/energy, which makes things “alive”. Matter and energy are eternal, fed by the eternal water of life. The Tree of Life shows how all living things are related, and illustrates how consciousness arose and expanded up to human consciousness. The mysteries of the kingdom lie there. God's Will for me is to live as a human being, not a sheep. Hallelujah!

 

My point remains that the N.T. makes a poor example for any teacher. If the goal of what is taught is Salvation for all, then hiding the subject within parables only understood by a chosen few demonstrates that the biblegod doesn't want but a few saved. To hell with the rest, so he'll blind their eyes and harden their hearts. The teacher gets a "F" in his evaluation.

[agnosticator]

Ouroboros, you have the patience of a saint! No, really. If I were in your shoes, I think my reaction would be pretty nasty! You are an admirable person.

 

The last time I had a convo' with Ouroboros about suffering there was a naughty duo that was trying to put words in his mouth; now here you come doing the same thing. What are you guys the unholy trinity? I had to shake a finger at them so maybe I need to shake one at you? I dunno. Quit it man, you're being a meanie.

 

How exactly did you get this (in bold) from what I said? I'm not being mean. Yet.

[bornagainathiest]

Thumbelina wrote...

It takes a meek, teachable heart AND a willingness to endure no matter what to understand the gospel and that God wants to secure us for eternity.

 

Agnosticator replied...

This is exactly what is required by dictators, oppressors, abusive parents and spouses, and anyone wishing to maintain power over an individual. Teachers allow questions and opinions from their students. Teachers speak with clarity by making sure their language is precise, so the subject can be understood. The burden is on the teacher to deliver the subject to the students. If any student doesn't "get it", it is the teacher's failure, not the student's. No meekness, "teachable hearts" or endurance required.

 

 

Ah good!

 

I'm glad the T-word has finally cropped up.

I just knew that if I waited long enough, it would.

(Clears throat...Ahem!)

 

 

 

 

My dear Thumbelina,

 

Teaching has no place in this forum, as I've recently explained to Rayskidude.

 

I can explain further, but you will have to enter into dialog with me for that.

 

Am I on your 'ignore' list right now, maybe?

 

Please pick up the 'phone.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[oddbird1963]

Thumbelina: Oh my God, literally. Were you fed all of that by faith healers and name it and claim it preachers? It is not as cut and dried as that.

So it's not self-explanatory or self-interpreting after all. YOU have to interpret the literal verses into something that they're not saying, just to find excuses to make them not mean what they literally mean...

 

Anyway, the healing wasn't the issue to why I lost my faith. It was the emotional healing in me, in my wife, in my kids, that were lacking. God doesn't answer those prayers either. You can't ask God for comfort or strengthening of you faith. Why? Because he won't do that either. He doesn't heal. He doesn't do shit. Why? Because he doesn't exist. Very simple answer. Maybe you will understand that one day too.

 

 

++1

[par4dcourse]

Thumby has the mistaken belief of so many others that we one day woke up in our comfortable xian existences and said "god didn't give me what I want so I'll be mad and pretend he doesn't exist. "

 

We are ex-christian, Thumbnail. I've read the bible 7 times cover to cover and there are others here who put me to shame in knowledge of all things biblical and historical. Don't dare think you just need to " 'splain it to us" and we'll magically come to a different conclusion than we have painstakingly and painfully reached.

 

We are not ignorant, misled, or defiant, just convinced.