Still Struggling

[Kris]

Hello all,

 

I have spent some time looking at your website, and finally joined today. I would like to share my story, and get some help from all of you, if possible.

 

I am an only child, and was born and raised as a catholic in my early years. I really tried to be a good kid, and went through all of the rituals, etc. but had a lot of questions. I wanted to know why we had to confess our sins to a priest, why there were three deities, why should I pray to Mary, etc.... I am sure that I was very annoying to have in Sunday School!! Anyway, I finally decided that I had enough around the age of 11 or so.

 

Around this time, I saw the movie the Omen. I was scared to death, and it only got worse when my dear mother showed me the bibical scriptures in Revelation that talked about all of this in "real life". I spent about two more years praying frantically every night that God would not end the world and let all of that scary stuff happen. Not really fun to be thinking about as a child! I was a real worry-wart though, I even worried about world war III, communism, etc. so this fit right in!!

 

When I was 13, my mom had to have surgery, so she had me stay with one of her co-workers. This co-worker and her husband happened to be fundamentalist christians (United Pentecostal). My first night there consisted of a bible study on---you guessed it!! The end-times!! I was horrified, but listened to them and looked at their flow charts. I was intrigued with the concept of the rapture taking me out of the world before all of this horrible stuff could take place, so I promptly converted to their religion, getting rebaptized and all of the rest. I tried my best to be a good christian, which was very hard during my teenage years. I wore long dresses, and had long hair. I did not date, go to dances, watch sports, etc.

 

After a few years in the church, I started getting nervous before each service, worrying that the topic of discussion would be on the end-times. I hated hearing about all of this, because I was not sure if I was being a good enough christian to get to heaven, and was terrified that the rapture would take place and I would be left behind. I also worried about all of the people I knew that might go to hell, and hated thinking about that.

 

After many years of this (10 or so) I finally had enough in 1990. We had an evangelist come to our church who was a well known end-time preacher. He went on and on about temple rebuilding, mark of the beast, etc. and I was sick to my stomach. I looked around in my panic to see what others were thinking, and some of the people looked bored. I wondered how they would be so a peace, when I was losing it!! I went home that night worrying that I would never have kids, see the future, etc. and I hated it. I met with a pastor from the church a few days later to try to get some help, and he basically said they liked having this preacher come to the church to get new people in-- because fear gets them through the door, but the love of God makes them stay!! I did not feel the love of God, let me tell you!! I also asked him about a scripture that I had recently run across in which Jesus had told his apostles that some would not taste death before he returned in glory (paraphrasing here!). He did not have an answer for me. I left his office that day, and never went back to church.

 

I avoided all of the endtime literature just so I could try to get my head back together, etc, and quickly found that a lot of the things that I had been told failed to come true. No temple was being rebuilt in Israel (and would it make a difference if one was?), no ashes of the red heifer were being sacrificed by jews, no one-world government, no anti-christ. I had 2 great kids, and just lived life and enjoyed it. I actually had peace for many years. Every once in a while, I would hear something that got me scared, but I could rationalize it. I also came to find that a lot of the things in the bible were not accurate, that a lot of the stories were not true, archeology did not show that the bible was historically accurate, and on and on. I really felt like I might actually grow old!! I was very happy, and even survived 1999!!!

 

Recently, however, I have been struggling because one of my old church friends sent me a stupid email on a microchip that could be implanted into a person. I got scared all over again because it got me into the end of the world thinking-- cashless society, mark of the beast, etc. I have researched all I can on this topic, and found that the email had a lot of bad information in it, but that some there is an actual company that does use microchips for health record verification. They place it in people's right ARMS. They had experimented with using the chips as payment devices at one bar, and some patrons opted for it, while others did not. Currently, they are not actively marketing the chips for medical record tracking because it did not appear to take off, but plan to develop the chips for glucose monitoring, etc. After looking at their information, it did not appear that the devil was diabolically using them to take over the world, but it got me worried about the technology.

 

I have spent enormous amounts of time researching all I could about what the bible actually said about the MOB-- and have read how most people feel that the story was actually about imperial worship, and Nero. That does make sense. But it is hard for me to let go of my fears, because the big-ticket items for the end-times is of course the MOB and cashless society, etc. I was really hoping that I would never have to worry about all of this. I want to believe that the bible is wrong-- and therefore, I have nothing to worry about, but it is difficult to shake of the years of preaching on stuff like this. Also, I have a harder time with things like this, because they are entirely feasible. Now, not only do I worry about me, but I worry about my kids and husband as well. I mean, I do think that there will come a time when we use our cell phones or thumb prints to conduct transactions without using cash, and I use my credit and debit cards all the time-- I just get nervous thinking about something in my body. I made the mistake of going on a few religious websites on this topic, and that was not a good thing at all!! My brain went into overload worrying all over again.

 

Needless to say, I hate that I feel this way, and I hate thinking that that might be a God out there that would potentially let all of this happen. I want God or at least the bible not to be true, just so I don't have to worry about this. I had always been kind of a techno-geek, but I find myself getting edgy whenever I think about the future because I worry about possible implants, etc. I keep telling myself that as long as I don't put one in my right hand or forehead, I will be ok. I would also hope that if something like this ever became commonplace, that the developers would be smart enough to avoid those areas, just out of religous sensitivity. Then I might not have to worry so much. Personally, I just think that fingerprints or eyescans of some sort should be our "human barcode", because they would limit tracking abilities, etc. but that it just me.

 

My husband still believes in Jesus, etc, but even he is not worried about microchips. He just thinks it is new technology. He has never really gotten all that worked up over end-times things. He feels like the MOB would be something that people would have to take as a result of worship-- like a dedication to a god of some sort. The microchip is just something to conduct business with no affinity to anything in particular.

 

How do the rest of you handle things like this? I really want to get back to the peace that I once had in my life, when I could laugh off the latest end of the world rumor, but I haven't gotten to that point yet. Any advice?

[Dagan]

The "Mark of the Beast" refers to a passage in Deuteronomy detailing how the priests were supposed to tie little boxes with prayers and scripture inside to their hands and foreheads. Some Jews still do this.

 

It's a metaphor in Revelation, IMO, suggesting that the beast will copy and twist the Jewish faith to his own ends.

 

Personally, I wouldn't put too much stock in the ravings of a hermit who ate too many magic mushrooms.

[Kris]

Yes-- I have read about this theory as well, and find that it makes sense as well. I mean, I keep asking myself, why the right hand or forehead. Why not either hand, or just the forehead? This allows for some kind of logic. Like I said, I have to try to find some sort of reason to try to counteract all of the crazy thoughts that I have in my head.

[florduh]

You, like many others, have been brainwashed into a superstition through no fault of your own. All I can tell you is knowledge is your friend, so study. Study the history of the Bible, how the religion evolved, how doctrines come and go. School yourself on critical thinking techniques. If it is really bad, you wouldn't be the first who could benefit from secular counseling.

 

Good luck to you.

[Deva]

You, like many others, have been brainwashed into a superstition through no fault of your own. All I can tell you is knowledge is your friend, so study. Study the history of the Bible, how the religion evolved, how doctrines come and go. School yourself on critical thinking techniques. If it is really bad, you wouldn't be the first who could benefit from secular counseling.

 

Good luck to you.

 

I agree. I was raised with the end-times rapture stuff too. This is the route I took to free myself. I studied for years. I think that what helped most was learning the history of the church and how this apocalyptic rapture stuff was not important through most of its history. Also read Biblical scholars - Ehrman, Crossan, I don't know, I read all of them.

 

It was worth the time.

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Kris, and welcome. Congratulations on taking the big step of leaving your church. You've made a good decision and you won't regret it.

 

You said you have read a number of posts on this board. I'm glad you have. If you read enough posts, you will see that it is not uncommon for deconverts to have difficulty shedding all the fearful things they learned as Christians. Many have a number of different issues, fear of hell being one of the more common ones. Don't worry, though, with time and education, the fear can be vanquished.

 

It appears that your big issue now are "end-time" events as allegedly portrayed in Revelation. You have already said someone told you that what Revelation was really all about were the events that were taking place with the persecution of Christians by Nero. That is exactly what Revelation is all about. It was meant to be an encouragement to Christians who were undergoing Nero's persecution or who were afraid they were going to be so persecuted. The message was for them to endure what they are going through because Jesus Christ will bring Rome to justice in the end. Though I can't tell you exactly how it is done, even the mark of the beast, 666, in Revelation 13:18 refers to Nero and those scholars on this Board who know ancient Greek perhaps can explain that to you better than I.

 

I first became acquainted with "end-times" issues in the 1970s. I read several books by Hal Lindsey, perhaps you have heard of him. His first book was called The Late Great Planet Earth. However, the first book of his I read was called, There's a New World Coming. In that book, Lindsey would recite a few verses or so of Revelation and then provide his interpretation. As I read his interpretation, I was so intrigued. What he saw in Revelation was modern warfare with helicopters, nuclear weapons, etc. It seemed so clear when I read what he had written.

 

I was in the Navy at the time and stationed on a ship at sea. I remember once that I wanted to read Revelation without Lindsey's aid to see if I could see all that he described. As I lay in my bunk, with the ship gently pitching and rolling from the power of the sea, I read Revelation. However, I just couldn't see what Lindsey did. For example, look at this scripture and try to see what it is talking about.

 

1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

 

7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon. Revelation 9:1-11

 

According to Lindsey, what is described in the above-quote was some sort of attack helicopter. An attack helicopter? Nope, I don't see it. This is symbolic language meant to symbolize God's vengeance on the Romans for persecuting Christians. Nothing more.

 

You specifically bring up the issue of microchips being implanted in people. Here's the part of Revelation that is at issue:

 

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666. Revelation 13:11-18.

 

The first thing to do is to ask yourself, how does this describe microchips. The words used say everyone is to "...receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead...." Notice it says "on" his right hand or "on" his forehead. There is nothing about anything at all going under the skin. It also says there will be a "mark." A microchip is not a mark. Finally, note that it says the mark "...is the name of the beast or the number of his name...." and then goes on to give us the number of his name and that number is 666. Therefore, to be in compliance with scripture, a person must be given a mark on his right hand or his forehead which says Nero or the number 666. None of this comes close to describing a microchip or anything modern at all.

 

What this passage meant at the time was simply that Nero controlled the Roman world and had the power to make his enemies miserable in the economic sense. Sure, Christians could renounce their faith in Jesus and be spared persecution by Nero and thus be able to participate in Roman economic life. If they did this, however, they would have a metaphorical 666 placed on them and they would become like Nero and they, too, would suffer God's wrath.

 

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. Revelation 14:9-10.

 

So the full message was that if Christians who are being persecuted renounce Jesus, they may be saved from Nero's wrath, but they will be subject to God's wrath. Therefore, stay true to the faith even in the face of this terrible persecution.

 

Notice how these prophecy preachers do things. Every time there is some sort of new development, either politically, socially, economically, technologically, etc., they try to fit it into their "end-time" scenario. I remember when bar codes first came out. These "end-time" preachers were convinced that we were all going to be tattooed with a bar code. I remember when fiber optics came out, there were those "end-time" preachers who were convinced that when fiber optic cables were placed into our homes for cable TV and such, that they were going to be two-way so that the antichrist and his minions could watch our every move through our own TV sets. Just before the year 2000, many of these "end-time" preachers were convinced that when the computers all crashed in the year 2000 it would usher in the antichrist. It goes on and on ad nauseum.

 

Don't let this stuff bother you. There is no such thing as prophecy. It's all a slight of hand trick and nothing more. There is no prophecy in the Bible or anywhere else.

 

If you would like some further explanation or have some other specific areas about the "end-times" you would like help with, don't hesitate to post them. I used to really get into this stuff. Even now, I still like watching Hal, Jack, Grant, and the rest of the gang spit out their latest version of the "end-time" scenario which, of course, constantly changes with the times.

[Kris]

Thanks so much for replying everyone!! I really do appreciate it, and it really helps to have people to talk to who know where I am coming from.

 

Like I mentioned, I have been really good about debunking 98% of all of the endtime hype, but I guess the microchip thing got under my skin--pun intended!! It just seems like this is one of those times when I have to worry about one of those preachers "being right". I love it when I can prove something that Hal Linsday said wrong, or show how a preacher has twisted something. I am really working on trying to reconcile the fear of microchipping being the "human barcode" as it has been presented by the fundamentalists with what Revelations actually has to say. I agree that it doesn't seem to fit all that well, but I still get that little worry in the pit of my stomach when I think about it too much.

 

And like I said before, I really would like to spend my time worrying about more mundane things. Sometimes, things like this can make it hard for a person like me to embrace any kind of future. This is why I really hate fundamentalism-- and have for a long time. It sure doesn't give me a good feeling at all!!

[Dagan]

FYI, the original "number of the beast" might have actually been 616, according to imaging of the oldest manuscript fragments. Wikipedia has some interesting analysis, with one convincing argument being that with Jewish numerology, "Caesar God," variations of Nero and Caligula all add up to 616.

 

To me, this just shows how Revelation only means whatever you read into it.

 

Remember, magic mushrooms.

[Vixentrox]

Take a look at some of the multitude of failed end time prophecies....

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrld.htm

[ShallowByThyGame]

A microchip is an amazing feat of human engineering, regardless of how it is used. No idea why it has to be tarred with the 'mark of the beast' metaphor. Is Satan a cyborg or something? Ridiculous jibberish is all it is.

[Kris]

A microchip is an amazing feat of human engineering, regardless of how it is used. No idea why it has to be tarred with the 'mark of the beast' metaphor. Is Satan a cyborg or something? Ridiculous jibberish is all it is.

 

I think that it gets tied up with the MOTB because in theory, it could be used to "buy or sell" someday down the road. This is an aspect that I have really tried to think about in depth. To me, if I was God, I would not give a crap how people conducted business--be it using coin, beans, a sheet of paper, or trading goods, or even waving an arm over a scanner to deduct a cost off of a bank account. But, I would probably be pretty mad if people were worshiping someone other than me. The microchip itself it just something that is a means to an end. It allows a computer to communicate with a person in order to determine what transactions might need to be completed. End-timers like to tie in the fact that people could be monitored by the microchips-- so this could be a tool that an Anti-Christ could use. He would then be able to control someone's ability to "buy or sell". Some end-timers feel that the microchip itself is not the actual MOTB, but that would be something that would be required seperately-- failure to accept the mark would shut off your microchip!! Like I said earlier, cashless societies and ultimate control are big parts of the end-time philosophy. I realize now that alot of these people probably look at what futurists predict in order to drive how they interpet events in our day with prophecy.

 

I liked what one the posters said about the fact that the said microchip would need to have the name/number of the beast to technically meet the conditions of the prophecy. What if the microchip just had a hologram of my face, and or my SSN or an ID no. specific to me--then it would not technically have anything to do with the "beast". In my mind, I keep thinking that in the future, people could very well end up with some sort of a mircochip under their skin for identification purposes, or they might use their fingerprint or a handscan-- but at some point, people will interface with computer systems in order to conduct business. My big thing is that as technology advances, I am trying to find ways to not worry that every new thing is leading us to the end of the world. I really like what computers can do, and as a human who beleives that we need to continue to evolve, I know that they are going to be a huge part of our future. I also don't think that a "cashless society" or even a "one world government" would usher in the anti-christ. As I said before, I would probably insist that my microchip, digital tattoo, or barcode doesn't go on my right hand or forehead, just to be safe. But I don't want to be a luddite either!! I just wish I would have been born about 40 years earlier, so I did not need to worry about all of this.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Read about what Revelations is really about. 666 is the number of Nero's name, Caesar Nero. The 'antichrist' already came. 7 headed beast, Rome. The Essenes got themselves killed by the Romans because they thought they were fighting the final battle between good and evil. Read about the Qumran texts.

 

Revelations prediction that Rome would lose didn't go according to plan, they actually exterminated the essenes. And now we have Revelations given to Roman Christians who now believe that its referring to something completely different. Revelations is just a failed prophecy.

[ShallowByThyGame]

When it comes to prophecy just remember: Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Overcame Faith]

A microchip is an amazing feat of human engineering, regardless of how it is used. No idea why it has to be tarred with the 'mark of the beast' metaphor. Is Satan a cyborg or something? Ridiculous jibberish is all it is.

 

I think that it gets tied up with the MOTB because in theory, it could be used to "buy or sell" someday down the road. This is an aspect that I have really tried to think about in depth. To me, if I was God, I would not give a crap how people conducted business--be it using coin, beans, a sheet of paper, or trading goods, or even waving an arm over a scanner to deduct a cost off of a bank account. But, I would probably be pretty mad if people were worshiping someone other than me. The microchip itself it just something that is a means to an end. It allows a computer to communicate with a person in order to determine what transactions might need to be completed. End-timers like to tie in the fact that people could be monitored by the microchips-- so this could be a tool that an Anti-Christ could use. He would then be able to control someone's ability to "buy or sell". Some end-timers feel that the microchip itself is not the actual MOTB, but that would be something that would be required seperately-- failure to accept the mark would shut off your microchip!! Like I said earlier, cashless societies and ultimate control are big parts of the end-time philosophy. I realize now that alot of these people probably look at what futurists predict in order to drive how they interpet events in our day with prophecy.

 

I liked what one the posters said about the fact that the said microchip would need to have the name/number of the beast to technically meet the conditions of the prophecy. What if the microchip just had a hologram of my face, and or my SSN or an ID no. specific to me--then it would not technically have anything to do with the "beast". In my mind, I keep thinking that in the future, people could very well end up with some sort of a mircochip under their skin for identification purposes, or they might use their fingerprint or a handscan-- but at some point, people will interface with computer systems in order to conduct business. My big thing is that as technology advances, I am trying to find ways to not worry that every new thing is leading us to the end of the world. I really like what computers can do, and as a human who beleives that we need to continue to evolve, I know that they are going to be a huge part of our future. I also don't think that a "cashless society" or even a "one world government" would usher in the anti-christ. As I said before, I would probably insist that my microchip, digital tattoo, or barcode doesn't go on my right hand or forehead, just to be safe. But I don't want to be a luddite either!! I just wish I would have been born about 40 years earlier, so I did not need to worry about all of this.

 

Think about this. If god were so concerned about end-time events and if we were the ones to which these events were to unfold, then why would he tell John of Patmos about it 2,000 years ago? God would have to know the fear he would be unnecessarily spreading to all the generations to whom these events would not happen. This would make him cruel and mean spirited to inflict that. And yes, people more than a thousand years ago were concerned that they were the generation.

 

If god wanted to tell our generation something, it only makes sense that he would speak to us in plain, straightforward language that we could easily understand. If he spoke to us, he would tell us to watch out for the microchip because it will be used to usher in the antichrist and we, the doomed generation, could clearly understand the message. Why would he show poor, ignorant John of Patmos a microchip when he would have no earthly idea what was going on and so could not transmit vital information to future generations. Do you see how absurd the whole scenario is?

 

Here's another thought for you. If god's ultimate goal is to wipe out satan and evil, then why must he set up this whole elaborate scheme that end-time preachers see set forth in Revelation? All this all powerful god would have to do to wipe out satan and evil is to say the word. To wait is to subject generation after generation to evil and cruelty so he can play his games and manipulate events so this elaborate scheme plays itself out and he looks so cool. Again, do you see how absurd the whole scenario is?

[Kris]

Wow--what a great post. I totally see what you are saying, and it really helps. I have kind of wondered the same thing-- why tell this guy what was supposed to happen-- and do it in a way that no one really even understands, and then punish a whole multitude of people who "don't get it"! I mean, why should 6 billion people get wiped out because of something written 2000 years before their time? That would be like me writing a note to my great-great-great grandchild that was written in some crypic manner instructing them to adher to my rules but say that if they don't understand and follow, they will be punished in some horrible manner. There is no way this poor kid could avoid punishment if he was unclear of what I was telling him, or even why I was telling him to do something.

 

I honestly feel that Revelation was just an extension of Daniel. And Daniel was an extension of Zecheriah, or one of the other older prophets who stated that the world was going to end and Israel would rule the earth, etc. They were probably just like the fundementalists of today, who modify the prophecies so that they don't appear to have failed, etc. John thought the world was ending in his time, and perhaps it was the "mushrooms", but he came up with this grand scenario for how everything was going to unfold. Lots of things that he writes about were in many other OT books already, so he was not all that creative. There are so many other weird things in Revelation, like the two witnesses, battles, weird bugs, etc. and I don't get that worked up about all of that because it seems so ridiculous-- but Chapter 13 has scared me since I was a little kid.

[Overcame Faith]

Wow--what a great post. I totally see what you are saying, and it really helps. I have kind of wondered the same thing-- why tell this guy what was supposed to happen-- and do it in a way that no one really even understands, and then punish a whole multitude of people who "don't get it"! I mean, why should 6 billion people get wiped out because of something written 2000 years before their time? That would be like me writing a note to my great-great-great grandchild that was written in some crypic manner instructing them to adher to my rules but say that if they don't understand and follow, they will be punished in some horrible manner. There is no way this poor kid could avoid punishment if he was unclear of what I was telling him, or even why I was telling him to do something.

 

I honestly feel that Revelation was just an extension of Daniel. And Daniel was an extension of Zecheriah, or one of the other older prophets who stated that the world was going to end and Israel would rule the earth, etc. They were probably just like the fundementalists of today, who modify the prophecies so that they don't appear to have failed, etc. John thought the world was ending in his time, and perhaps it was the "mushrooms", but he came up with this grand scenario for how everything was going to unfold. Lots of things that he writes about were in many other OT books already, so he was not all that creative. There are so many other weird things in Revelation, like the two witnesses, battles, weird bugs, etc. and I don't get that worked up about all of that because it seems so ridiculous-- but Chapter 13 has scared me since I was a little kid.

 

Excellent! Glad to see we're making progress.

 

You seem to like big picture outlooks. So here's another. There were no prophets in the past, there are no prophets today, and there will be no prophets in the future, ever.

 

If god had an important message for you, what would be the most logical route for him to take to convey that message? Think about this logically before you read any further.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you came up with the following answer: the most logical way for god to convey a message to you would be for him to tell you directly. Yet, according to the bible, god doesn't tell the intended recipients of his messages directly. Rather, he chooses someone to tell and then has that person tell the intended recipients of the message. This would have to be the dumbest way for god to convey a message I could ever imagine and here are some reasons why:

 

1. God runs the risk that his prophet gets the message wrong. After all, the prophet is only human and, by definition, fallible. Therefore, the intended recipient, if he believes the person truly has a message from god, wonders about the accuracy of the message. Thus, the message itself has a credibility issue.

 

2. God runs the risk that the intended recipients of his message do not believe the messenger actually carries a message from god. This being the case, they do not heed the message. The result is a failure to communicate (to quote a famous line from Cool Hand Luke). Thus, god has imposed a second layer of credibility issue and each of his prophets must convince the intended recipients of the message that he really is on a mission from god (Blue's Brothers). Now we have two layers of credibility issues.

 

3. God runs the risk that fakers will claim to be prophets when they really aren't, thus subjecting people to charlatans who are out to take advantage of them. Do the names Jim Jones and David Koresh sound familiar?

 

Because of the many problems with the whole concept of prophets, a rational and logical god would not be so stupid as to implement this incredibly dumb system for trying to communicate with people. What would he do? You know the answer. He would take the messgage to the intended recipients himself and thus eliminate all of these problems.

 

Conclusion: John of Patmos was not a prophet and, therefore, nothing written in Revelation is prophetic.

[Kris]

There was something else that I always wondered about-- if the MOTB was something that people could go to hell over, why didn't Jesus mention it when he was talking to the apostles about how the world would end? Wasn't he supposed to know everything? Would that be pretty important to bring up?

[Overcame Faith]

There was something else that I always wondered about-- if the MOTB was something that people could go to hell over, why didn't Jesus mention it when he was talking to the apostles about how the world would end? Wasn't he supposed to know everything? Would that be pretty important to bring up?

 

I agree with you on this. It would make sense that if the mark of the beast were a determining factor for heaven or hell as Revelation tells us, that Jesus should have brought it up.

 

While I agree with you, as a matter of critical examination, there are problems with your analysis and christians would quickly point them out. The absence of a topic in one book (Matthew) does not mean that the presence of the topic in another book (Revelation) is a contradiction. In other words, they could both be true, the absence of the MOTB in Matthew does not contradict its presence in Revelation.

 

Then here's the clincher that kills your argument: Revelation is said to be a revelation from Jesus, himself.

 

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3

 

But don't let this get you down. You want to develop correct critical thinking skills which will allow you truly to assess the credibility of scriptures (and other material).

 

The important thing for you is to overcome your fear about the MOTB so you can stop letting fear have this level of control over your life.

 

Maybe part of your problem is that you are reluctant to let go of this one thread that keeps you, though ever so slightly, teathered to Christianity. If this is true, it is understandable. It is quite difficult to take the final plunge into full apostasy. However, if this is the case, then let me encourage you to take the plunge. The water's great.

[Kris]

I almost felt like I was debating with an actual christian for a moment!! You have good points, and I do know that John was supposed to have been provided the information from Revelation directly from Jesus--but it still seems like a completely different version of how the end of the world would take place than what Jesus said himself. While absence of information is an argument, the amount of confusion that is caused by having two different explanations for how the end of the world would seem to be contradictory--in my opinion.

 

I would definitely love to cut the cord on religion. The only thing that keeps me tethered at all is my fear of Hell-- which is the only reason I was religous in the first place. It certainly was not because of the peace it brought me!! This one thing has been the only end-of-time thing that I have not been able to easily brush away--even after all of my research. I have books and books of material on eschatology-- and just about the time I tell myself--stop worrying about microchips--Revelation was written by a kook- or don't worry, nobody will push microchipping on the masses- a little voice will whisper in my head--what if you are wrong?? Part of me just wants to go ahead and get a chip just so I can say-- you are going to hell now anyway, so stop worrying!! I would also like to just beleive that after everyone gets a chip etc, life will just keep rolling on and I will laugh at how stupid I was for worrying about this. Unfortunately, I can't talk to people about this kind of thing because it makes me feel like a crazy paranoid. I don't want to worry my kids with this kind of thing because I don't want them to grow up like I did. I am just a troubled non-soul!!

[Overcame Faith]

I would definitely love to cut the cord on religion. The only thing that keeps me tethered at all is my fear of Hell-- which is the only reason I was religous in the first place.

 

 

This is what I suspected and I'm glad you said it. If you have read this board a lot, then you know that the fear of hell cuts deeply into many people and it is not so easy to get rid of it. But the good news is that people do lose the fear of hell. It is at that point that those who were bound in the chains of the fear of hell, lose those chains and walk as free human beings on this earth.

 

There is no greater travesty that Christianity has foisted on this planet than the doctrine of hell. It has caused little innocent children to tremble with fear that if they were to die, they would wake up in the burning pits of hell. It has caused innumerable parents to quake in fear that their beloved children who are not christians are doomed to burn in hell for all eternity. It has caused countless numbers of people to succumb to an imaginary god for fear that if they don't they will be tormented forever when in reality, what they are succumbing to are human beings who enjoy controlling them with threats of this non-existent place called hell.

 

Kris, it is all a human-made lie designed to control people through fear.

 

But there are ways for the lie to be exposed and for people to be set free. The problem with the christian religion, however, is that it uses this trump card called "fear" to convince people that the rational and logical arguments of those outside of christianity are really the devil's lies trying to trap them into hell.

 

Here's my advice to you at this point. Start thinking of everything in logical and rational terms. Demand from yourself that before you accept anything as a fact, there be at least some level of reasonableness to the claimed existence of the fact. Don't take anything, especially anything of a religious nature, on faith.

 

Once you're in that mindset, then start asking questions about hell and truthfully seek the most logical and reasonsable answers you can think of. Here are a few to get you started:

 

Is god a just god?

 

How is it just to punish someone for eternity for a transgression that was finite?

 

How is it just to punish someone for eternity for something so trivial as not to believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be?

 

How is it just that a child murderer who confesses his sins just before he is injected with the lethal brew and asks Jesus to save him will go to heaven after he dies a minute later, when an otherwise good person goes to hell because he committed the "sin" of adultery by lusting after a woman in his heart even though he never physically touched her but was killed instantly in a car crash before he had a chance to ask Jesus into his heart?

[Kris]

Thank you. I will work on this. I was just sitting here thinking about how much I crave a normal life-- one that is not full of fear. It is very lonely, and sad. The funny thing is that i had gotten to the point where I was pretty fearless, and was not even concerned with Hell-- and then got sucked right back in with one thing that created fear in me. I am fighting my way back out of the fear-hole I guess.

 

One thing that I keep coming back to with the subject of God/hell is that as a parent, I love my kids more than anything. I would rather hurt myself than them. Sometimes they do things that disappoint me (they ARE teenagers!), but I always find it in my heart to forgive them. I don't think that there is anything that they could do that would cause me to turn my back on them. I certainly would not want to condemn them to any type of eternal punishment. Why would my heavenly father be so quick to do that to me. And to even expand it to the MOTB-- why is that an eternal damnation? Wouldn't it be likely that people who have not heard a word from God in 2000 years might make a mistake and be deluded-- if you were to believe what the bible talks about, of course? Why wouldn't God forgive them for making a mistake? If you don't believe that the Bible is true, then none of this really matters anyway. And that is where I want to get to!!

[Overcame Faith]

Thank you. I will work on this. I was just sitting here thinking about how much I crave a normal life-- one that is not full of fear. It is very lonely, and sad. The funny thing is that i had gotten to the point where I was pretty fearless, and was not even concerned with Hell-- and then got sucked right back in with one thing that created fear in me. I am fighting my way back out of the fear-hole I guess.

 

One thing that I keep coming back to with the subject of God/hell is that as a parent, I love my kids more than anything. I would rather hurt myself than them. Sometimes they do things that disappoint me (they ARE teenagers!), but I always find it in my heart to forgive them. I don't think that there is anything that they could do that would cause me to turn my back on them. I certainly would not want to condemn them to any type of eternal punishment. Why would my heavenly father be so quick to do that to me. And to even expand it to the MOTB-- why is that an eternal damnation? Wouldn't it be likely that people who have not heard a word from God in 2000 years might make a mistake and be deluded-- if you were to believe what the bible talks about, of course? Why wouldn't God forgive them for making a mistake? If you don't believe that the Bible is true, then none of this really matters anyway. And that is where I want to get to!!

 

Very, very well said! Your analogy with your children is perfect and really brings the point home.

 

You will get to where you want to be. I am certain of it!

[Kris]

Well, it is a new day, and I thought that I was doing pretty well, but seem to have faltered again. I am really trying to work through my fears, but am still struggling. I think that my biggest problem comes from not being able to seperate out things that might happen technologically with what the bible says, and how people interpet it.

 

My hardest times are when I am at work because I have direct computer access here. I find myself trolling websites looking for information on what the future will look like-- trying to prove to myself that I don't need to worry, but things keep popping up that harken me back to all of my old fundamentalist fears. I just want to embrace the future so much, but am so scared to do so-- as I have been conditioned to beleive otherwise. I keep trying to tell myself that my fears are unfounded.

 

I know that I keep going back to microchips because they are the one fear that I can't seem to work through-- I tell myself that a microchip in someone's body might help them live longer because it might regulate high blood pressure, etc. and that is a good thing. A microchip might also cut down on the ability for bad guys to steal people's hard earned money, etc-- and that seems like a step forward for humanity. But, then I get an eyeful of the other side of the coin-- where people constantly talk about the NWO-- the devil's plan, etc. and how it is all being played out. I keep trying to tell myself that it would be highly unlikely for any company trying to market a microchip of this nature to push for it to be placed in the right hand or forehead-- because that would probably freak a lot of people out!! I am left-handed anyway, and would think that the left hand would be a better location for making transactions from your car, etc-- but to take it even further, I would think that a smart marketing company would not opt for hands at all and go with an implant in the arm-- or even shoulder-- it might be too easy for a bad guy to dig out an implant from one of those locations.

 

I guess that my big thing right now is that I feel like I need some sort of reassurance that I won't be damned to HELL for getting one of these implants. If I could just quit worrying about that one little thing-- I would be on my way to being so happy-- but everytime I think that I have conquered this-- I seem to fall back. I almost hate going to work each morning because I know that I will be able to access my computer, which means that I will have access to all the scary stuff on the net-- and while I know that a lot of things on the net are ridiculous-- I can't stop myself from looking. I keep hoping I will find the magic bullet to help me stop being afraid, but then I just get wrapped up again--I recognize that I have the classic signs of someone with OCD, which makes things even more difficult for me.

 

One of the things that I have been doing is reading a number of books that de-bunk bible prophecy. That is helping a little bit, but most of them were written years back, so they don't have a lot of information related to my current microchip fears. I was fortunate to read "The Paperback Apocolypse" by Robert Price, which I really appreciated-- as well as a few others. The nice thing about these books is how they show the way that people twist up current events to try to match up with bible prophecy, and how history has proven their theories wrong. Oh how I wish that I could jump in a time machine and go 50 years in the future-- just to verify that we are all still here!! and then secondly to find a good book debunking the microchipping fears of fundamentalists in the early 2000's.

 

 

When I read posts from others on this website, the one thing that I feel is that many of you have peace-- and not so much in the way of fear. I am sure that you all might get tired of hearing from people like me-- who have not yet been able to close the doors totally on our fears-- and just not worry about stupid fairy-tales in the bible-- but you are truly the only ones that I can discuss this with. In my heart of hearts, I just want so back to accept that there is no god-- and with that I would be able to not worry anymore about these things that scare me. I just had to get it out. Perhaps this is my therapy?

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Kris. I want to think a little bit about your above post before I respond to any of the specifics. But one thing I do want to emphasize is that having fear around the time of your deconversion is perfectly normal. You need not apologize for it. As I know you understand, Christianity is a lot about fear and there is a certain amount of brainwashing involved as well. I know because after my deconversion and when I really started studying the bible from my newfound point of view, I was shocked that I actually fell for it all. But I did. I was fully convinced of everything, including that there were actual demons, satan, and hell. It takes time to recover and to rid your mind of all the mind games that you were subjected to.

 

You will get over this. You will learn to conquer these fears. You will be free.

[Kris]

Thanks--you are so kind to take the time that you have to respond to me as often as you have. I was really hoping that you would see my latest post. I want so badly to get to where you are, but it is just so hard.

 

Like I have said in my previous posts, even my husband, who is still a believer by the way, thinks that my fears are irrational. Back in our early-married days, he used to let the "bible-prophecy" stuff go in one ear and out the other. I, on the other hand could not do this. I have had several talks with him about my microchip fears, and he told me that I should not worry about stuff like this-- that it is just technology. He even said that he would not be opposed to getting a chip in his hand-- he thinks it would be cool. He doesn't think that the chip has anything to do with God whatsoever-- he thinks that the MOTB will be something that a world-dictator type will force everyone to get-- but he does not put much stock in the "buying and selling" aspect of the chip making it the MOTB If he is able to think like this, why can't I? Why can't I work past this? Is it because I feel the inevitability that people could get chipped in the future--and I equate that to the end of the world? How do I reprogram my thinking? Why am I so obsessed?