Still Struggling

[YellowJacket]

where I come from MOB stands for Mother of the Bride. And those, indeed, can be VERY scary personages.

[Petrel]

I always believed the fundamentalist timeline of the end of the world--the pre-millenial Rapture, Tribulation, and then 1000 year kingdom. But I never really went through the Scriptures to put it together myself until I went to college. I went to a borderline fundamentalist Baptist university. During my New Testament survey class I realized that things were so neat as they were depicted. Of course I'd read all of the verses used, but never thought about how they might fit together. When I actually took a look at it I was kind of disappointed. The end times timeline is pieced together from multiple passages, some just a few verses.

 

The whole idea of the end of the world timeline that we're familiar with is really an extremely new construct, less than two centuries old. If it really were so clear as all that, it would not have escaped all of the Christians in the almost two millenia between the writing of Revelation and first time someone thought up the Rapture and seven-year Tribulation. In random order:

 

Daniel says nothing about the Rapture, nothing about the Antichrist, nothing about the millenial kingdom. Daniel is cherry-picked. Daniel 11 is an extended and extremely specific description of a series of events, battles between various kings over various things, that is completely ignored in the fundamentalist timeline. In Daniel 9-12, fundamentalists choose Daniel 9:24-27 and Daniel 12:1-3 and 12:10-11. The rest of the passage hardly gets glanced at because it's impossible to shape into a useful prophecy.

 

Ezekiel 39 is often described as an end-time war, but there's nothing in the text that suggests it's intended to fit into a timeline with the events mentioned in Daniel or Revelation.

 

The Rapture comes from two verses in I Thessalonians (4:16-17) and this even isn't mentioned in Revelation.

 

Matthew 24 doesn't produce a good timeline either. If this one can be used to support the Rapture, then the Rapture will occur after the Tribulation. But I don't think it does, because in this passage to be taken is a bad thing, not a good thing (analogy to the Flood, where those who were taken were the sinners who were drowned).

 

Revelation has lots of spiffy fireworks, but no Rapture, none of the things mentioned in Daniel, and doesn't even say itself that this is the Tribulation, how long it lasts, and at what point in the narrative the Tribulation starts (it could have even already started). Most scholars believe Revelation was intended as a condemnation of Roman rule, and the Beast was Emperor Nero (according to contemporary numerology practices, Nero's number could be either 666 or 616, both common variations of the number of the Beast).

 

Biblical end times prophecy is an incoherent mess. If you pick your favorite verses and chuck them all in a pot you can cook it up to resemble . . . something. But without some judicious application of the manicure scissors, the jigsaw puzzle pieces just do not fit together.

[Kris]

Well, this morning was a bit rough for me-- On the radio station that I listen to, the radio hosts were having a conversation about what people think life will look like in 2050--I guess one of the poll questions had to do with whether people would have microchips inplanted in them for identity purposes, etc. I did not hear the exact poll numbers, but all three of the radio hosts said that they thought people would have these types of chips and that they would be convenient--but then one had to say that she thought it was the Mark of the Beast!! The chill went down my spine, of course. This is something that I just can't seem to get away from!! The other hosts told her that she was an idiot.

 

So, even though I am trying to use sound reason when dealing with my fear of the MOTB, I have to keep hearing about the microchip-MOTB connection-- even on my favorite radio station. I keep trying to remember that the bible is full of false information, it is hard to move forward when you hear people talking about this over and over!!

[Shyone]

Well, this morning was a bit rough for me-- On the radio station that I listen to, the radio hosts were having a conversation about what people think life will look like in 2050--I guess one of the poll questions had to do with whether people would have microchips inplanted in them for identity purposes, etc. I did not hear the exact poll numbers, but all three of the radio hosts said that they thought people would have these types of chips and that they would be convenient--but then one had to say that she thought it was the Mark of the Beast!! The chill went down my spine, of course. This is something that I just can't seem to get away from!! The other hosts told her that she was an idiot.

 

So, even though I am trying to use sound reason when dealing with my fear of the MOTB, I have to keep hearing about the microchip-MOTB connection-- even on my favorite radio station. I keep trying to remember that the bible is full of false information, it is hard to move forward when you hear people talking about this over and over!!

Look forward to the day when you can hear that and crack up laughing.

 

Remember, shoes under the bed are the Mark of the Boogeyman!

[Overcame Faith]

Well, this morning was a bit rough for me-- On the radio station that I listen to, the radio hosts were having a conversation about what people think life will look like in 2050--I guess one of the poll questions had to do with whether people would have microchips inplanted in them for identity purposes, etc. I did not hear the exact poll numbers, but all three of the radio hosts said that they thought people would have these types of chips and that they would be convenient--but then one had to say that she thought it was the Mark of the Beast!! The chill went down my spine, of course. This is something that I just can't seem to get away from!! The other hosts told her that she was an idiot.

 

So, even though I am trying to use sound reason when dealing with my fear of the MOTB, I have to keep hearing about the microchip-MOTB connection-- even on my favorite radio station. I keep trying to remember that the bible is full of false information, it is hard to move forward when you hear people talking about this over and over!!

 

Kris, so sorry to hear you've had a bad day. You can't control what other people say and you can't lock yourself away so you never hear other people talk. But what you can do is learn to control your reaction to what people say. I understand that will take some work and conditioning on your part, but you can do it.

 

I want you to try something if you are willing. I want you to explain to me why this person on the radio who said these chips they were discussing were the mark of the beast was wrong. You know intellectually she was wrong. So put it in writing to the best of your ability and explain why you either agree or disagree with what you have written. I may have some follow-up questions or comments after you complete your homework assignment.

[Kris]

Boy, am I glad you responded-- you are always so helpful. Ok, let me get rolling here:

 

Some of the reasons why the microchip would not be the MOTB include:

 

The bible doesn't mention microchips as the mark-- The bible talks about the people of god being "marked" with god's name in their forehead, but doesn't define it as a microchip-- seems the marks would need to be of a similar nature. Most people see god's mark as symbolic. Does that mean the MOTB is too?

 

If you did not put the microchip in either your right hand or your forehead, you don't meet the conditions of the prophecy.

 

If there is not a person/anti-christ to worship and give our allegience to, it does not seem like the microchip is anything more than just another way to make a payment, or provide identity information. I mean, isn't it entirely possible that my microchip would include information only about me--without any 666 (or 616!) being attached to it? If that is the case, how could it be the MOTB?

 

 

Theoretically, a microchip could be removed from the body-- so it is not a permanent mark?

 

Revelation was likely addressing issues of the Roman Empire--and it is quite possible that it has nothing to do with current events. I.e.--Nero/Domantain was the Beast, and the MOTB was code for emperor worship, or the use of the right hand/forehead in jewish rituals.

 

Those are some of my arguements:

 

The things that still seem to scare me with all of this, is that when people talk about microchips being the MOTB, they talk about how they match the prophecy so closely in that they will be used for buying and selling--that they will be in a person's body (as opposed to charge cards, etc), and that they can be used to control people in that goverements could monitor and cut off people if they were dissident. So, it isn't as easy to dismiss as it was the thought that SSN's were the MOTB, or barcodes even.

 

If I had never heard of the MOTB, I would not even be concerned about microchips-- I would probably be keen to get one, as I wouldn't have to worry about making sure I had money and stuff, and would figure that--who cares if I could be monitored by someone-- since I am not a law-breaker, who cares? It is only because of the connotation that keeps being attached to these microchips, that I keep getting scared all over again. They seem eerily similar to the prophecy. And I know that really, none of the bibles propecies have come true--so why should this one-- and I agree-- but STILL GET SCARED!!

[Shyone]

Those are some of my arguements:

 

The things that still seem to scare me with all of this, is that when people talk about microchips being the MOTB, they talk about how they match the prophecy so closely in that they will be used for buying and selling--that they will be in a person's body (as opposed to charge cards, etc), and that they can be used to control people in that goverements could monitor and cut off people if they were dissident. So, it isn't as easy to dismiss as it was the thought that SSN's were the MOTB, or barcodes even.

 

If I had never heard of the MOTB, I would not even be concerned about microchips-- I would probably be keen to get one, as I wouldn't have to worry about making sure I had money and stuff, and would figure that--who cares if I could be monitored by someone-- since I am not a law-breaker, who cares? It is only because of the connotation that keeps being attached to these microchips, that I keep getting scared all over again. They seem eerily similar to the prophecy. And I know that really, none of the bibles propecies have come true--so why should this one-- and I agree-- but STILL GET SCARED!!

My driver's license number is 06666894.

 

I sometimes have to present it to buy things at the store.

 

It is on my body at all times. In my right hand pocket.

 

I think it has a bar code thingy on it. Yep, just checked. Bar code AND magnetic strip.

 

I know I shouldn't be afraid to carry my driver's license around with me....

 

 

And I'm not.

[Overcame Faith]

Boy, am I glad you responded-- you are always so helpful. Ok, let me get rolling here:

 

Some of the reasons why the microchip would not be the MOTB include:

 

The bible doesn't mention microchips as the mark-- The bible talks about the people of god being "marked" with god's name in their forehead, but doesn't define it as a microchip-- seems the marks would need to be of a similar nature. Most people see god's mark as symbolic. Does that mean the MOTB is too?

 

If you did not put the microchip in either your right hand or your forehead, you don't meet the conditions of the prophecy.

 

If there is not a person/anti-christ to worship and give our allegience to, it does not seem like the microchip is anything more than just another way to make a payment, or provide identity information. I mean, isn't it entirely possible that my microchip would include information only about me--without any 666 (or 616!) being attached to it? If that is the case, how could it be the MOTB?

 

 

Theoretically, a microchip could be removed from the body-- so it is not a permanent mark?

 

Revelation was likely addressing issues of the Roman Empire--and it is quite possible that it has nothing to do with current events. I.e.--Nero/Domantain was the Beast, and the MOTB was code for emperor worship, or the use of the right hand/forehead in jewish rituals.

 

I thought this part of your analysis was pretty good.

 

 

Those are some of my arguements:

 

The things that still seem to scare me with all of this, is that when people talk about microchips being the MOTB, they talk about how they match the prophecy so closely in that they will be used for buying and selling--that they will be in a person's body (as opposed to charge cards, etc), and that they can be used to control people in that goverements could monitor and cut off people if they were dissident. So, it isn't as easy to dismiss as it was the thought that SSN's were the MOTB, or barcodes even.

 

If I had never heard of the MOTB, I would not even be concerned about microchips-- I would probably be keen to get one, as I wouldn't have to worry about making sure I had money and stuff, and would figure that--who cares if I could be monitored by someone-- since I am not a law-breaker, who cares? It is only because of the connotation that keeps being attached to these microchips, that I keep getting scared all over again. They seem eerily similar to the prophecy. And I know that really, none of the bibles propecies have come true--so why should this one-- and I agree-- but STILL GET SCARED!!

 

I have some questions for you on this part of your counter-anslysis:

 

Where in Revelation does it say that the MOTB will be used for buying and selling? Read what you're going to point out very closely and carefully like you were a lawyer trying to get the true meaning of the words to present to a jury. Don't just read what the words say, also read what they don't say.

 

Where does Revelation say the MOTB will be "in" someone's body?

 

Can and do governments monitor people today? Can and do governments "cut off" people today; for example, can they work if they don't have a SSN, can people on the terrorist list get on airplanes (well, are they supposed to be allowed to)?

 

In your analysis (the first quote), you did a really good job explaining how microchips don't match the "prophecy." In the above quote, however, you discuss how people "talk about how they match the prophecy so closely...." Why does what people "talk about" have so much more authority in your mind than your own well-reasoned analysis does?

[Overcame Faith]

Those are some of my arguements:

 

The things that still seem to scare me with all of this, is that when people talk about microchips being the MOTB, they talk about how they match the prophecy so closely in that they will be used for buying and selling--that they will be in a person's body (as opposed to charge cards, etc), and that they can be used to control people in that goverements could monitor and cut off people if they were dissident. So, it isn't as easy to dismiss as it was the thought that SSN's were the MOTB, or barcodes even.

 

If I had never heard of the MOTB, I would not even be concerned about microchips-- I would probably be keen to get one, as I wouldn't have to worry about making sure I had money and stuff, and would figure that--who cares if I could be monitored by someone-- since I am not a law-breaker, who cares? It is only because of the connotation that keeps being attached to these microchips, that I keep getting scared all over again. They seem eerily similar to the prophecy. And I know that really, none of the bibles propecies have come true--so why should this one-- and I agree-- but STILL GET SCARED!!

My driver's license number is 06666894.

 

I sometimes have to present it to buy things at the store.

 

It is on my body at all times. In my right hand pocket.

 

I think it has a bar code thingy on it. Yep, just checked. Bar code AND magnetic strip.

 

I know I shouldn't be afraid to carry my driver's license around with me....

 

 

And I'm not.

 

Shyone, if I had that driver's license, I'd throw it away and never use it. Too many six's for my comfort level.

 

Just kidding, Kris. I hope you can take a joke.

[YellowJacket]

the middle 3 numbers of my SS are 666. My mom got it for me in 1962, when I was 2 yrs old. I'm surprised she didn't notice it at the time and ask for something else, being the tin foil hatter that she is.

[Kris]

Overcame Faith-- Here is the part of the verse that addresses buying and selling:

 

16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

 

 

The verse does talk about receiving a mark on the right hand or forehead (not in, as some people would say-- I believe that even the oldest text indicates that the scripture means "on".) But it also does mention that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark. This is where people say that if you don't have the microchip in our body, you will not be able to function in society, therefore you will be "forced" to get the mark. I know that it shouldn't but it makes a pretty convincing arguement when you look at it that way.

 

I do understand what you are saying when it comes to the fact that the government can prevent people from doing things if they really want to at this point-- with or without microchips. I guess it would just make it easier.

 

I am not sure why people who talk about this being the MOTB have so much influence over me, other than the fact that I have not been able to easily push away their arguements--other than by saying that the bible is not true. Like I have said before, I had really hoped never to even have to worry about anything like this. I would have been fine with just using paper checks, cash, etc-- but it seems like we are eventually headed towards new ways to buy and sell-- and one of those happens to be putting something in our bodies that acts as a "bar-code" of sorts for us. This is something that the fundamentalists have been saying would happen for years, and in theory, they could be right-- I guess the ultimate question is--just how right are they? I would love to laugh this off, but it has not been an easy one-- and then having to hear it in my day-to-day life makes it even harder to ignore!!

 

I really value your help on this-- and am looking for any kind of support to negate the arguement that these microchips are the Mark of the Beast. Partly just for me, and partly because I think that we are going to hear this more and more as this technology poliferates. Lastly, I think the thing that bothers me most of all is that my kids could end up getting microchips in their bodies someday-- I can not bear the thought that these kids that I love more than anything in the world could be doomed for eternity over something like this-- so I really, really want to clear my mind of this issue. I am not trying to be a trouble-maker.

[buffettphan]

1. In the days before the internet, I opened a post office box in order to receive information from the old group, Fundamentalists Anonymous.

The PO Box number was 4666.

 

2. To spell "Mom" on the telephone keypad, press 666.

 

3. The "personal code" on the back of the credit card I frequently use is 666.

 

4.. This next event might be TMI, but I'm so old, I don't care and actually, I think it's hilarious.

When I was 12 years old (2 6's),

in the 6th grade,

on 6/6/66

 

I had my very first period.

 

 

So Kris, you don't have to worry. If anybody's got the MOTB, it's ME!

 

 

 

 

 

Take care, Kris. I hope you get past this last hurdle soon. I'm sure you will -- you've already gotten this far in escaping the christinsanity.

Okay, back to the others who are seriously addressing your concerns and have great advice......

[Kris]

I always enjoy the funny stuff-- my first licence plate was 2EAC666-- people used to ask me if it was personalized-- I ,being a christian at the time was horrified, and promptly did get new plates. I can look back on that and laugh--it was funny and ironic--and totally random!!

 

I am hoping to be able laugh off this latest situation soon-- but am still having to work on it!! We shall see-- I may end up with 20 different microchips in me just because I can-- wouldn't that be ironic!!

[Overcame Faith]

I am not trying to be a trouble-maker.

 

I want to clear this up first. You are in no way a trouble maker nor do your posts bother me in the least. If they did, I have the option of just ignoring them and please note that I do not choose to do so.

 

Overcame Faith-- Here is the part of the verse that addresses buying and selling:

 

16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

 

The verse does talk about receiving a mark on the right hand or forehead (not in, as some people would say-- I believe that even the oldest text indicates that the scripture means "on".) But it also does mention that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark. This is where people say that if you don't have the microchip in our body, you will not be able to function in society, therefore you will be "forced" to get the mark. I know that it shouldn't but it makes a pretty convincing arguement when you look at it that way.

 

This is why I asked you to read the verse very carefully. Note what it says. It says that without the mark "...no one could buy or sell...." It does not say that the MOTB is what is to be used for buying or selling. In other words, the MOTB is not the medium of exchange as is envisioned by our modern day soothsayers who believe that a microchip will be the MOTB. In their scenario, the MOTB, that is the implanted chip, is the actual medium of exchange, the thing like a credit card which will be used for the actual transaction. If this meaning was what god was trying to convey to those of us who live today, he would have had his "prophet" say it differently. To convey this message, the verse would have said something like "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that the mark would be used to buy and sell."

 

This may seem like a subtle distinction, and it is, but it is an important distinction. If you read it in the context of the time, the medium of exchange was currency or an exchange of goods. That is why the verse does not say one had to use the mark to buy or sell. It was understood that currency was to be used for this purpose. What was obviously contemplated by the writer is that even though someone had currency, without the mark the merchant could not engage in the transaction.

 

This modern day interpretation adds to the actual verse by requiring that the mark be the actual medium of exchange even though that is not what the verse says. If we assume that this is a message from god, then wouldn't god make his meaning clear? Yes he would and it clearly does not say that the MOTB is to be used in the affirmative sense to engage in economic transactions. That's a modern day construct which does not fit in with the text and should be flushed down the drain.

 

 

I am not sure why people who talk about this being the MOTB have so much influence over me, other than the fact that I have not been able to easily push away their arguements--other than by saying that the bible is not true.

 

What other argument do you need other than "...that the bible is not true?" I think it is that you still haven't convinced yourself of this fact. I'll deal with this later.

 

I am not sure why people who talk about this being the MOTB have so much influence over me, other than the fact that I have not been able to easily push away their arguements--other than by saying that the bible is not true. Like I have said before, I had really hoped never to even have to worry about anything like this. I would have been fine with just using paper checks, cash, etc-- but it seems like we are eventually headed towards new ways to buy and sell-- and one of those happens to be putting something in our bodies that acts as a "bar-code" of sorts for us. This is something that the fundamentalists have been saying would happen for years, and in theory, they could be right-- I guess the ultimate question is--just how right are they? I would love to laugh this off, but it has not been an easy one-- and then having to hear it in my day-to-day life makes it even harder to ignore!!

 

You talk about the fundies having talked about this for years "...and in theory, they could be right...." Have you ever noticed how with every economic downturn, some financial guru will emerge holding his book or some newsletter in which he or she predicted the downturn and advised his or her clients to pull out of the market prior to the downturn? It happens every time. They like to paint themselves as having this extraordinary ability to predict something which no one else could. When you see this, do you believe that they really are more talented than everyone else? Before you read my answer, stop and come to your own conclusion and then read what I have to say. Okay, here's my answer: No they're not more talented than anyone else. It's just that they were lucky enough to have guessed right this time. Invariably, these same "gurus" will make future predictions and will be proven wrong time and time again. In fact, over time, everyone basically does no better with their investments in the stock market than the stock market in general does.

 

Now, apply this to the fundies who have such influence over you with their predictions that some sort of micrichip will be implanted in us. Please respond to me with your application of this lesson because I want to see if you really get it.

 

Lastly, I think the thing that bothers me most of all is that my kids could end up getting microchips in their bodies someday-- I can not bear the thought that these kids that I love more than anything in the world could be doomed for eternity over something like this-- so I really, really want to clear my mind of this issue.

 

This is the most gut wrenching thing I have read that you have written. I have said many times before that one of the most cruel aspects of the doctrine of hell are the mothers who lay awake at night crying and pleading with a non-existent god begging him to bring their children to him so they do not burn in hell. I didn't know you then, but I now know that you were one of the mothers who was on my mind. I will do what I can to help you through this. What would help? Should we turn our attention to the doctrine of hell directly? Let me know, and I will respond as well as I am capable.

[Kris]

OF-- thanks so much for taking time to work with me-- even though I have just recently gotten to know you-- you have truly been a friend to me. I want you to know that I am grateful for that!

 

I appreciate what you have to say about what the scripture actually says-- I think that is how my husband feels about it. He has stated to me on several occasions that he does not believe that the MOTB is a microchip-- that is just something that is used to complete business transactions. He thinks that if and when the world gets to the point of what Revelation is talking about, that there will some sort of ruler who will require people to take some sort of visible mark of loyalty-- like a tattoo-- or something of that nature to show allegience to this being. He thinks that it has much more to do with worship that the buying and selling.

 

It might help for me to know what you think Revelation was really talking about-- do you think that it had to do with Nero, etc. or do you just think that John the Revelator was yet another crazy guy trying to make sense of what looked to be failed OT prophecies?

 

would you get a microchip? If so, what would your conditions be for doing so?

[Overcame Faith]

OF-- thanks so much for taking time to work with me-- even though I have just recently gotten to know you-- you have truly been a friend to me. I want you to know that I am grateful for that!

 

Thank-you for your kind words.

 

It might help for me to know what you think Revelation was really talking about-- do you think that it had to do with Nero, etc. or do you just think that John the Revelator was yet another crazy guy trying to make sense of what looked to be failed OT prophecies?

 

There is a lot written on this subject and I don't claim to be an expert. There are those on this board with theological degrees who could deal with this subject far better than I. With that disclaimer being stated, what it sounds like you want to hear is my personal take on Revelation.

 

Back in the 1970s when I was a young man in the Navy, I began reading books written by Hal Lindsey who interpreted Revelation to mean that it had modern day applications. I was fascinated with this concept and read a lot on the topic. I became fairly convinced that what Lindsey and others said was true and believed that things were shaping up in modern times for the return of jesus. However, even as a christian, I grew more and more skeptical of all the prognostications made by Lindsey and others. What they had said simply wasn't washing clean. So I began to back off of that type of interpretation to a degree, but still believed that jesus could return at any time and when he did we would understand everything in Revelation, Daniel, and Jesus' Mt. Olivet discourse. But basically, as my christian life continued on, I drifted away from the intense interest in end-times that I had.

 

Since I deconverted and worked through all the things I had to work through, I have not accepted as true anything that is supernatural, and that includes the concept of a prophecy being possible. That being said, the question is how do I view Revelation.

 

Revelation is not a prophetic work. No god told anyone named John anything which he subsequently wrote down and called Revelation (which I actually think is a title given to the work, not by John, but by tradition).

 

Revelation is one of many works in the genre of early writings which are apocalyptic in nature. For example, have you ever heard of "The Revelation of Peter?" This manuscript was part of an incredible archaeological find in 1945 near an Egyptian town named Nag Hammadi. It was a treasure trove of ancient manuscripts of the gnostic christians. The gnostics, among others, were in competition with what we now call orthodox christianity but lost out once Roman Emperor Constantine basically gave the royal seal of approval to orthodox christianity.

 

"The Revelation of Peter" is an apocalyptic work in the same genre as Revelation, but for reasons which will become clear, was rejected by those who only wanted what we now know as orthodox christianity to prevail. In the work, Jesus appears to Peter to convey information to Peter, much like John claims in Revelation. Like John, Peter wrote the revelation down. Among the things that Peter says Jesus showed and explained to him was the crucifixion. Here is an excerpt:

 

When he [Jesus] said this, I saw him apparently being arrested by them. I said, "What do I see, Lord? Is it really you they are seizing, and are you holding on to me? And who is the one smiling and laughing above the cross? Is it someone else whose feet and hands they are hammering?"

 

The Savior said to me, "The one you see smiling and laughing above the cross is the living Jesus. The one into whose hands and feet they are driving nails is his fleshly part, the substitute for him. They are putting to shame the one who came into being in the likeness of the living Jesus. Look at him and look at me."

 

When I looked, I said, "Lord, no one sees you. Let's get out of here."

 

He answered me. "I told you they are blind. Forget about them. Look at how they do not know what they are saying. For they have put to shame the son of their own glory instead of the one who serves me."

 

You can see why this manuscript was not accepted into the orthodoxy. Jesus is portrayed as laughing because the people crucified someone who merely looked like him. It's some really weird stuff.

 

Now, what does this have to do with my opinion of Revelation? To me, Revelation has no more authority than does "The Revelation of Peter." It is just one of many manuscripts written in the apocalyptic genre. The only difference is that Revelation was chosen by a group of men, though with dissension, to become part of the orthodoxy.

 

I believe Revelation was intended as a message of hope for first century christians who were suffering under the persecution of Nero. It depicts god through Jesus Christ as striking down the all powerful Roman Empire through the delivery of terrible plagues and other destructive forces all of which ultimately leads to the deliverance of those who believe. Though the Christians may die a physical death, the message is that they will ultimately be raised into heaven where there shall be no more tears.

 

But there's one more aspect of revelation. And that's the vengence by god on those who dared to kill and torture his people. That's the purpose of the various wrathful scenarios in which god is depicted as sending plagues and fires and many other nasty punishments to those who either directly abused his people, the christians, or indirectly did so, those with the mark of the beast, who allowed Nero and Rome to torture and kill Christians. Their final punishments are the fiery flames of hell into which all those who conspired to torture and kill christians were to be thrown.

 

Revelation is an intersting read, but it has no more modern day application than does "The Revelation of Peter."

 

So ultimately what scares you is a modern misinterpretation of a book which was metaphorically pulled off of a library shelf where it was kept with the other apocalyptic works and chosen by some fourth century men to become part of the orthodoxy out of all of the other apocalyptic works that they could have chosen if they felt they needed something like that in the orthodoxy.

[Overcame Faith]

would you get a microchip? If so, what would your conditions be for doing so?

 

Now I'll respond to this.

 

My reasons for being timid about getting a microchip have nothing whatsoever to do with Revelation or Christianity. To me the issue is one of freedom under the constitution of the United States. If the government were to try to force each person to have a microchip implanted into their bodies, I would vehemently oppose that based on the freedoms as expressed in the Bill of Rights.

 

Now it's a different issue as to whether I would have a microchip implanted on a purely voluntary basis for which I knew there were safeguards for privacy and theft. I would consider that.

 

But here's the big point. If my child were implanted with a government mandated microchip, my concern would in no way be the concept of hell or religiion in any form or fashion. Mine would be a concern that my child's freedom had been abridged by being forced to accept a microchip without her consent (or my consent if she is still a child - which consent I would not give, by the way, because I would want to wait until she was old enough so she could make her own decision).

[Kris]

Thank you for your take on Revelation. I have recently been looking at some of the "apoclyptic" writings that did not make it into the bible. As I understand it, a number of people wanted to keep John's Revelation out of the final bible, but finally allowed it to be added because John was the "beloved apostle". The funny thing is that this book was not likely to even have been written by John the Apostle. I really do take heart that a number of scholars believe that it was strictly written for people living during the time it was written. I did not know all of that during my bible-believing days, so it helps me to find out things of this nature during my deconversion.

 

Robert Price takes the same approach that you do with microchips--While they do not prove the fundamentalists correct, the myth of the MOTB can be utilized as a warning to avoid tyranny of government, and that is is wise to fight against any system that removes ones personal liberties. I think that if the microchip thing was to begin to take off, many religious people would freak out-- and I think that libertarians would also take issue if it looked as if personal freedom was at risk. That might be enough to put a kabosh on the entire idea. I personally would be fine with that. Like I said, I just want to prepare myself for the other possiblity that microchips in humans did become as common as a visa card. I would think that people would continue to have options on how they wanted to access their cash-- so like if you and I did not feel that a microchip protected our privacy, we could use a "card" etc. I really don't see how this will not be a devisive issue in the years to come. Even Joe Biden mentioned that it would be something that the Supreme Court would probably have to address someday!!

[Overcame Faith]

Thank you for your take on Revelation. I have recently been looking at some of the "apoclyptic" writings that did not make it into the bible. As I understand it, a number of people wanted to keep John's Revelation out of the final bible, but finally allowed it to be added because John was the "beloved apostle". The funny thing is that this book was not likely to even have been written by John the Apostle. I really do take heart that a number of scholars believe that it was strictly written for people living during the time it was written. I did not know all of that during my bible-believing days, so it helps me to find out things of this nature during my deconversion.

 

Right. There's nothing sacred about these books that found their way into what we now know as the bible. A group of men decided that they were the canon and so "closed the book," so to speak. They then went about discrediting and even destroying the works that did not become part of the canon. It was only by pure fortune that some person a long, long time ago buried manuscripts near Nag Hammadi, Egypt and then someone happened to find them in 1945 that we even have the written works of the agnostics.

 

It really brings the bible's veracity down quite a bit when one comes to understand that the decision of which books became the canon was made by mortal men who were no wiser, but were far, far less knowledgable, than the average person today.

[Kris]

Boy-- I have to admit that I wish that the Revelation of John would have been one of the books destroyed!! That would have taken a load of worry off of me. I can easily dismiss all of the other weird books "written" by Peter, Mary, etc. but this one is a bit harder--probably due to everyone constantly interpeting it over and over.

[Overcame Faith]

Boy-- I have to admit that I wish that the Revelation of John would have been one of the books destroyed!! That would have taken a load of worry off of me. I can easily dismiss all of the other weird books "written" by Peter, Mary, etc. but this one is a bit harder--probably due to everyone constantly interpeting it over and over.

 

I know what you mean. But you can still "throw it away" from your mind. You really can and you will in time.

[Kris]

After doing a bit more thinking regarding my posting here, and the issue that I am grappling with, I think that it all comes down to this. When I deconverted years ago (1990) I told myself that I would not worry about anything related to the end of the world-- because the preaching that surrounded this topic talked about specific things that had to take place, such as temple rebuilding, the anti-christ rising, the MOTB being implemented. So, since I did not see any indication that any of these things were possibly coming to fruition, I did not worry at all. In fact, I became extremely confident that I might make it through my entire life without ever even having to worry about any of this crap ever again. I could reason away any stupid end of the world preaching that I happened to catch-- such as the fear around the year 2000, etc. While I had entertained that thought that the things in the bible were wrong, and that there probably wasn't a god, I had not really committed to this.

 

Having this microchip issue come up at this point in my life was such a hit to me, because I had pushed away my fears of the future based on the concept that there was no evidence that any of these things that had been preached could possibly come true. This puts me in a weak and vulnerable position, in that I can not reason the way I did in the past. Now, I am working to validate the fact that the bible is not a trust-worthy source of history, or future events. No matter how similar the things going on in this world may be to what people perceive to be prophetic in the bible-- they will not hearld the end of time. A good example of this is when it looked as if the Roman Empire was about to rise again with it's 10-heads, just like Hal Lindsay predicted. Then, all of a sudden life rolled on, and the empire increased it's numbers, but never became one of the "super powers" as he predicted!

[LivingLife]

Dude

 

Take a step back an ponder this. Every person must take the MoB all around the world.

 

Think of the logistics nd cost of implementing this, remember this has to all take place in a period of 3.5-7 years depending on where the fantasy of pre-trip, mid-trib or post trib shite takes place.

 

Which country has the wherewithall and finances to make this happen, teh USA? Fuck, the USA owes everyone else more than any other nation that has ever existed.

 

Who else? Teh EU? Dude they are just as fucked up financially as the USA and are treading water to keep afloat.

 

Remember EVERYONE must get the MoB and in Africa ther is more than 90% areas w/o any infrastructure that will allow a POS (point of sale) system. Africa makes up one sixth of the world population. Solve Africa and then maybe you would have pause to worry. Never mind that India and China (two nations) collectively make up 50% of the world population, their lot is not much better off than Africa.

 

The planet we live on is called Earth and NOT teh USA, think about it, the USA makes up ONLY 5% of the global population.

 

We shall be waiting as to how this will all logically roll out to one continent and two other nations.

 

HINT:

 

NO ONE has the finances OR resources to make this happen in a maximum span of 7 years - MISSION IMPOSSIBLE...

[Overcame Faith]

After doing a bit more thinking regarding my posting here, and the issue that I am grappling with, I think that it all comes down to this. When I deconverted years ago (1990) I told myself that I would not worry about anything related to the end of the world-- because the preaching that surrounded this topic talked about specific things that had to take place, such as temple rebuilding, the anti-christ rising, the MOTB being implemented. So, since I did not see any indication that any of these things were possibly coming to fruition, I did not worry at all. In fact, I became extremely confident that I might make it through my entire life without ever even having to worry about any of this crap ever again. I could reason away any stupid end of the world preaching that I happened to catch-- such as the fear around the year 2000, etc. While I had entertained that thought that the things in the bible were wrong, and that there probably wasn't a god, I had not really committed to this.

 

Having this microchip issue come up at this point in my life was such a hit to me, because I had pushed away my fears of the future based on the concept that there was no evidence that any of these things that had been preached could possibly come true. This puts me in a weak and vulnerable position, in that I can not reason the way I did in the past. Now, I am working to validate the fact that the bible is not a trust-worthy source of history, or future events. No matter how similar the things going on in this world may be to what people perceive to be prophetic in the bible-- they will not hearld the end of time. A good example of this is when it looked as if the Roman Empire was about to rise again with it's 10-heads, just like Hal Lindsay predicted. Then, all of a sudden life rolled on, and the empire increased it's numbers, but never became one of the "super powers" as he predicted!

 

This is very interesting and insightful. The thing I see from this post and your other ones is that you never really left christianity behind totally. Even your deconversion in 1990 was conditional. And your condition was "...that I might make it through my entire life without ever even having to worry about any of this crap ever again." And how was it that you might make it through your life "without ever even having to worry about any of this crap ever again?" It was not that you saw it was all nonsense. Rather, it was because you didn't believe the predictions made by the soothsayers would actually happen. There's a world of difference between what you did and discarding the whole idea as the nonsense it really is.

 

For you, if some soothsayer appears to be getting something right based on their interpretation of Revelation and current events, then your conditional departure from christianity has not been met and you are back to square one. What you need is an unconditional departure from christianity. You need to convince yourself that the religion is all bullshit in toto. You obviously have not done this because for you to be worried about the MOTB, then you must still believe that only Jesus can savee you and your children from hell and that taking the MOTB requires you and your children to be cast into the inferno. After all, from a theological standpoint based upon your beliefs with regard to the MOTB, taking the mark is a rejection of your savior which thus requires hell.

 

I have re-read your original post in light of our conversation so far. Here's what your original post sounds like to me now. It sounds like you were scared to death about the end-times scenario that you were hearing. This fear began at a very early age. In fact, it appears to have begun when you were 11 or so and saw the movie Omen. Here's the quote:

 

I am an only child, and was born and raised as a catholic in my early years. I really tried to be a good kid, and went through all of the rituals, etc. but had a lot of questions. I wanted to know why we had to confess our sins to a priest, why there were three deities, why should I pray to Mary, etc.... I am sure that I was very annoying to have in Sunday School!! Anyway, I finally decided that I had enough around the age of 11 or so.

 

Around this time, I saw the movie the Omen. I was scared to death, and it only got worse when my dear mother showed me the bibical scriptures in Revelation that talked about all of this in "real life". I spent about two more years praying frantically every night that God would not end the world and let all of that scary stuff happen. Not really fun to be thinking about as a child! I was a real worry-wart though, I even worried about world war III, communism, etc. so this fit right in!!

 

This fear was reinforced when you were thirteen:

 

When I was 13, my mom had to have surgery, so she had me stay with one of her co-workers. This co-worker and her husband happened to be fundamentalist christians (United Pentecostal). My first night there consisted of a bible study on---you guessed it!! The end-times!! I was horrified, but listened to them and looked at their flow charts. I was intrigued with the concept of the rapture taking me out of the world before all of this horrible stuff could take place, so I promptly converted to their religion, getting rebaptized and all of the rest. I tried my best to be a good christian, which was very hard during my teenage years. I wore long dresses, and had long hair. I did not date, go to dances, watch sports, etc.

 

It became worse as you were going to this church. And, in fact, you were even afraid to go to church for fear that end-times issues would come up in the service. Here's the quote:

 

After a few years in the church, I started getting nervous before each service, worrying that the topic of discussion would be on the end-times. I hated hearing about all of this, because I was not sure if I was being a good enough christian to get to heaven, and was terrified that the rapture would take place and I would be left behind. I also worried about all of the people I knew that might go to hell, and hated thinking about that.

 

Then when you finally decided to leave the church around 1990, it appears that it was the end-times issues which drove you away:

 

After many years of this (10 or so) I finally had enough in 1990. We had an evangelist come to our church who was a well known end-time preacher. He went on and on about temple rebuilding, mark of the beast, etc. and I was sick to my stomach. I looked around in my panic to see what others were thinking, and some of the people looked bored. I wondered how they would be so a peace, when I was losing it!! I went home that night worrying that I would never have kids, see the future, etc. and I hated it. I met with a pastor from the church a few days later to try to get some help, and he basically said they liked having this preacher come to the church to get new people in-- because fear gets them through the door, but the love of God makes them stay!! I did not feel the love of God, let me tell you!! I also asked him about a scripture that I had recently run across in which Jesus had told his apostles that some would not taste death before he returned in glory (paraphrasing here!). He did not have an answer for me. I left his office that day, and never went back to church.

 

But even after you left the church, end-times issues were still a point of fear for you and the way you dealt with it was by avoidance:

 

I avoided all of the endtime literature just so I could try to get my head back together, etc, and quickly found that a lot of the things that I had been told failed to come true.

 

So here's my assessment. You don't appear to have deconverted in the true sense. Rather, you left the church as a way to avoid being confronted with end-times issues. That is why when you hear something now about end-times like that radio program the other day, you lapse back into your old fears.

 

It is obvious that avoidance is not the way for you to get past this. You have made some valiant efforts to get your rational mind around these issues and to flush them away. So far, I don't believe you have been 100% successful.

 

Maybe you should try true deconversion. That is, decide for yourself once and for all whether you truly believe in some or all of the tenets of the Christian religion. If you agree with this and you want some help working on this, I am here for you as are others on this board.

 

Perhaps you could start with some basics. If you would like to think about these rather basic questions and post your responses, I will read your responses and we can carry on from there. Again, it's up to you. And, obviously, my assessment could be completely off the mark.

 

Here are a few questions:

 

1. Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin?

2. Do you believe Jesus performed miracles?

3. Do you believe Jesus died for the sins of all people?

4. Do you believe Jesus had a bodily resurrection after the crucifixion?

 

That's enough to start except for this. If you decide to answer these questions and to post your answers, don't be afraid to post your true answers. If you still believe some or all of these things, no one here will laugh at you or make fun of you. Your answers will be respected.

[Overcame Faith]

One more thing in addition to my last post. My definition of courage is that one acts in a noble way in spite of their fears driving them to act contrary to their noble act. I think your actions fit into this definition. It is always noble to seek the truth but courageous when done in spite of your fears of the end-times issues. I think you are remarkably brave for confronting your fears as you have. You are undoubtedly an inspiration to others. Keep up the courageous work. You will succeed!