Still Struggling

[Overcame Faith]

Your husband sounds wise and the kind of Christian that I can respect

 

I am going to give you further responses, but I do want to suggest something that you may want to consider. I am not being flippant when I suggest this, so please don't think I am. But one of the things you may want to consider doing is to go to a professional to discuss some of these things. However, and I am most emphatic about this. Do not go to a Christian therepist. Go to one who is purely secular. If you are experiencing some form of OCD, a good therapist could be a lot of help for you.

[Kris]

Yes-- I have thought about doing this myself. I don't think that you are being flippant at all. Years ago (1990), right before I quit going to church and met with the Pastor to discuss my fears of this nature-- he recommended that I see a phychiatrist about my problems--- no prayer or bible verses to comfort me--just a recommendation that I seek secular help. That was one of things that actually got me away from the church. I wondered how God who could see me in so much pain would not help me. That was probably the first time when I actually considered that there was no god after all. It was a good feeling to walk away back then, and I did it without secular help. I am not sure why this go-around is so much more difficult. I just am not sure what a therapist could tell me that I have not already told myself!! However, I have really thought that hypnosis might work-- I could be hypnotized to not fear the word "microchp"!! That would be nice!!

[Overcame Faith]

I could be hypnotized to not fear the word "microchp"!! That would be nice!!

 

I like your sense of humor. Keep it, a good sense of humor can get you through a lot of things.

 

I know you did a long post and I have read every word you posted. But can you tell me your basis for believing that microchips are prophesied in Revelation? Be as specific as you can. I would like to try to understand why you feel like they play the role you believe they do.

[Franciscan Monkey]

Hey, Kris, your post was also put up on the main blog the other day - I don't know if you were aware of that. There may be some replies that would help put your mind at ease. For me, once I realized that the Bible was not a trustworthy source of information, I de-converted. Any fear of hell or end-time prophecies fell away immediately, but I may be the exception rather than the rule in this regard. Hope it all works out for you.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

 

Edited for the link below:

 

Main blog plost

[Kris]

I think that it comes down to the original email I recieved from a "friend" back in 2006 or so. Basically, it went something like this-- that a credit card company was going to start having people implant a chip in their hand that would contain all of their credit information-- people could scan their hand, which would almost be like having a "barcode" built right in. Of course, the hand that they showed in the email was a right hand, hence the corrolation between buying and selling--right hand-- cashless society and then the MOTB. I think that the video was something to do with the "Mondex" corporation. I quickly looked up Mondex, and found that the entire email seemed to be incorrect on many levels, and that while there were some companies that dabbled in selling microchips to individuals, it did not look like this company was going implement any type of implanted credit card. At the time, I thought to myself, I will only worry about something like this if it ever looks like some company might actually looks to market microchips in people.

 

Fast forward to the end of 2008-- I had just had life-threatening surgery (I was only 41) and was very frail. I was looking forward to living a long life now that my medical issues had cleared up. One day, I was reading an article about these HIV people in Indonesia and saw where one of their lawmakers wanted to implant microchips in them for monitoring purposes. This scared me, so of course I researched it on the net, and quickly found out that Indonesia was NOT going to microchip these poor people. This was a big relief, but at the same time, I ran across some of the scary websites that I had referenced in my previous posts. There was this one lady named Katherine Albrecht who wrote about "spychips" RFID microchips that were going to monitor everything and everyone by replacing barcodes. She went on to say that the ultimate plan for these would be the MOTB because an RFID microchip could be implanted into a person's body and the Anti-Christ would be able to monitor every person on the planet and control their buying and selling. She, of course, is an evangelical christian. This is what started the whole fear cycle for me. I tried to prove her wrong by going on the internet and finding evidence to prove that the things she said were untrue. I of course found that more people wrote things to agree with her. I also found that there are companies that have marketed microchips for use in humans, but for the most part, the public outcry from people like this lady have kept them from really taking off. Also, most of the marketed microchips were placed in people's ARMS-- not their hands. Perhaps these companies thought that would be a less controverisal place for implantation!!

 

As I have said before, I know that there are alot of technological changes that will likely occur in the next few years. Lots of items will probably have RFID tags on them so that we can get information about them from pointing our cell phones at them. We have contactless credit cards where a little microchip relays information to a reader. We will probably be able to use our cell phone to buy things. As someone who has always enjoyed technology, I can see why we would want to be able to utilize computers to our advantage. I guess it gets scary when the technology becomes embedded in us. When I read these websites where a person equates having a microchip in your body with accepting the MOTB-- because you are now buying and selling with something that is in you-- and contains a "tracking" number-- it is heard to shake off the old fears. And a number of futurists predict that we will eventually have sensors in our bodies so that computers can monitor various things like blood pressure, etc. It does not seem all that out of the loop that someday we might have our ID implanted in us so that computers can immediatly recognize us, etc. I also think that biometrics could serve the same purpose--but that is another story!!

 

I have tried to reason with myself-- even if you got a microchip and it was used to buy stuff (not sure how it would apply to the selling), the assigned serial number would be my own--not 666. And like I said, I keep going back to making sure that I would not put it in my right hand or forehead. I even saw one website by a christian that said that the microchip was not the MOTB because it did not meet the biblical conditions-- and the the MOTB was something that would be prominently displayed as a sign of worship to the Anti-christ. I liked what he had to say, but all of the other stuff keeps rattling around in my head.

 

Like I have said, I have read about all the literature that I can get my hands on, from preterist interpetations of Revelation, to people like Robert Price, and I still get scared that somehow if I put this stupid thing in my body, I will condemn myself to HELL. I have to say, though, that I don't think that any hell that god would send me to would be any worse than the hell I am putting my self through by worrying about all of this!

[Shyone]

 

Like I have said, I have read about all the literature that I can get my hands on, from preterist interpetations of Revelation, to people like Robert Price, and I still get scared that somehow if I put this stupid thing in my body, I will condemn myself to HELL. I have to say, though, that I don't think that any hell that god would send me to would be any worse than the hell I am putting my self through by worrying about all of this!

 

If you were to go to a church, you would probably be surprised how many of the parishioners have "microchips" implanted in their bodies. Specifically, pacemakers and automatic defibrillators. They're just machines that help to regulate (or restart) the electrical system of the heart. I doubt there are many pastors that give a flip about implanted defibrillators or pacemakers.

 

Also, I once broke a computer chip trying to "implant" it into a computer. They're just plastic and metal. I personally like to confront my fears, but you might not like the idea. Counselling might actually help since it sounds a lot like a phobia.

[Overcame Faith]

I want so badly to get to where you are, but it is just so hard.

 

Kris, don't get the mistaken impression that it was an overnight thing for me or so many others who deconverted from Christianity. For me it was a long process. I did a lot of bible studying and inward thinking. I determined that Christianity was a false religion first, but that didn't mean that I lost all of the baggage immediately. I had to deal with the baggage one item at a time. I had to determine whether there were demons, whether Satan was real, whether there was any such thing as sin, whether there was a hell, whether there was a heaven and the possiblity of eternal life (it hurt to come to the conclusion there was not), whether the Jesus as described in the New Testament actually existed and whether he met the criteria for being the Messiah, whether there were prophets or any form of prophecy actually in the Bible. Last and most difficult was that I had to determine whether the god of the bible was real. I didn't determine that he was not real until about September or October of 2009, long after I deconverted from Christianity. In fact, right after I deconverted from Christianity, I flirted with the idea of converting to Judaism because I had not lost my belief in the Jewish bible. I didn't convert because of the work I did and the ultimate conclusions to which I came.

 

Even after my deconversion, I still thought that god was communicating with me through prayers and other means. Even then, it seemed so real. But I continued on with my efforts and after much inner turmoil came to the conclusion, the correct conclusion, that it was not god at all. Rather, it was my inner self which I had for all of these years misinterpreted as being god.

 

Yours and my struggles may not have taken the same form, but I struggled every bit as powerfully as you are now. Taking that last step and giving up what I thought was god was extremely difficult for me. It was like losing a good friend that I thought had been with me my whole life, directing my path, encouraging me, and helping me make decisions in life. But then I came to the conclusion that I was really giving nothing up. I still have it as part of my inner self only now I know what it really is.

 

You appear to be where I was at the point that I finally allowed myself to confront the issue of whether the god of the bible existed. It was the last thing for me and this microchip issue appears to be the last thing for you.

 

Don't give into your fears. Prepare yourself to confront them head-on. Do your best to understand them and to use your rational mind to help yourself understand the fear and to deal with it. That's what I did. As much as I wanted god to exist and to be my personal friend, I finally allowed myself to face reality. It hurt, but I was rewarded for my efforts. There is nothing like the cool breeze of freedom. Turn and face the breeze and when you do breathe in deeply. You'll love it.

[Kris]

Thanks Franciscan Monkey-- I had no idea that my story posted elsewhere also-- I really appreciated reading all of the comments that people left in that area. It is nice to see people who care-- even if it is a bunch of reprobates!! Just kidding. I like reprobates!!

[ebonileigh]

Hi Kris,

 

I feel for you completely and totally understand.

I thoroughly recommend good secular counselling.

When I escaped the cult I was involved in, in 1999 and two years later the abusive marriage I was in, I was terrified. I went to another couple of churches, mainstream, and thought I was in the devil's territory. About a year after I left my husband I left mainstream xtianity.

During all this time and subsequently I had enormous amounts of traumatic things happen and I was just trying to survive, I had intensive counselling and psychotherapy (as I had been diagnosed with PTSD), without which I don't think I would have survived.

As time went on I began my studies in earnest, deprogramming myself and debunking the bible.

I had lived in fear most of my life, especially during the years of severe religious brainwashing and indoctrination.

The months leading up to my escaping the cult I was terrified to stay (as it was SO HORRIFIC) and terrified to leave.

 

During my years of deprogramming and debunking my fear began to subside, and go completely.

The key is to completely take the bible apart, to learn how it was put together and by whom and for what purposes.

To learn about evolution and also the evolution of religion and its origins and also the concept of god itself.

Once you realise that there is absolutely no evidence for a god/s/godesses, no satan, no demons, no devils, no heaven, no hell, nothing supernatural BUT ONLY the natural world and universe, your fear will END.

 

I had all sorts of threats levelled at me and my children before we escaped the cult (a hardcore independent fundamental baptist group), and that god would bend break and finally bury the disobedient christian, and believe me my fear was intense and I had all sorts of terrible things happen to me and my children and their friends, however, all these things had purely natural and human causes.

 

So, believe me when I say I understand your fear, the cult I was in was VERY BIG into bible prophecy and the coming rapture, tribulation, the mark of the beast, the end of the world, the 1000yr reign of christ and the devil being tied up in hell during that period and then loosed again to do it all over, what a load of shit!!

FEAR IS THE GREATEST WEAPON of religion.

There are many conspiracy theorists out there and the greatest of all of these is religion, the conspiracy that there is a cosmic battle between god and satan with mankind as their targets, and time is running out.

IT IS ALL NONSENSE.

 

As I said, I thoroughly recommend you avail yourself of counselling, secular, and debunking the bible completely and the stupid notion of god and the supernatural.

 

Live this life without fear, for it is the only one you get. Live it in total freedom of mind, true liberation is that of the liberated mind.

[Overcame Faith]

Fast forward to the end of 2008-- I had just had life-threatening surgery (I was only 41) and was very frail. I was looking forward to living a long life now that my medical issues had cleared up. One day, I was reading an article about these HIV people in Indonesia and saw where one of their lawmakers wanted to implant microchips in them for monitoring purposes. This scared me, so of course I researched it on the net, and quickly found out that Indonesia was NOT going to microchip these poor people. This was a big relief, but at the same time, I ran across some of the scary websites that I had referenced in my previous posts. There was this one lady named Katherine Albrecht who wrote about "spychips" RFID microchips that were going to monitor everything and everyone by replacing barcodes. She went on to say that the ultimate plan for these would be the MOTB because an RFID microchip could be implanted into a person's body and the Anti-Christ would be able to monitor every person on the planet and control their buying and selling. She, of course, is an evangelical christian. This is what started the whole fear cycle for me. I tried to prove her wrong by going on the internet and finding evidence to prove that the things she said were untrue. I of course found that more people wrote things to agree with her. I also found that there are companies that have marketed microchips for use in humans, but for the most part, the public outcry from people like this lady have kept them from really taking off. Also, most of the marketed microchips were placed in people's ARMS-- not their hands. Perhaps these companies thought that would be a less controverisal place for implantation!!

 

I am glad you have recovered from your life-threatening surgery. It must be wonderful to know that that health threat is behind you.

 

I had never heard of Katherine Albrecht so I did some reading on the internet about her. From what I read, her basic message is that RFID microchips threaten consumer privacy and she calls for control of the technology now to prevent abuses of this technology by both corporations and government who could potentially monitor the buying habits of consumers and even their personal lives. So far, so good. I agree that personal privacy is worth protecting.

 

She co-authored a book entitled, "Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to Track Your Every Purchase and Watch Your Every Move." Later, she updated "Spychips" with a book entitled, "The Spychips Threat: Why Christians Should Resist RFID and Electronic Surveillance." As the name of the updated volume suggests, this was written specifically to the christian audience and plays on the fears of christians concerning the mark of the beast. She strongly suggests that RFID microchips may be the MOTB as described in Revelation 13, though she does not outright say it.

 

You should see her latest work for what it really is, at least insofar as it relates RFID to Revelation 13. It is a marketing gimmick so she can sell more books to an audience hungry to have their view of Revelation confirmed. And Christians who are into end-times prophecy will eat this up and thereby pad her bank account.

 

Don't allow yourself to be led astray from the truth by those who have a financial or religious interest in spreading unfounded fear and who backread a 2,000 year old manuscript and twist it to say what they want it to say for their gain. When extraordinary claims are made, you should first and foremost be a skeptic. You should begin in disbelief and require the one making the extraordinary claim to convince you through facts, logic, and reasoning. If they fail to live up to their burden of proof, then forget what they say. And a mere possibility that the extraordinary claim is true is not enough to meet their burden of proof. I'll illustrate what I mean.

 

Suppose I told you that I can guarantee you that if you walk into the Mini-Market on Main Street at exactly 2:00 p.m. today and purchased a lottery ticket you will win. Would you believe me?

 

No, you wouldn't. And why wouldn't you? Because I have made an extraordinary claim. In actuality, all you have if you purchase that lottery ticket as I suggest is the "possibility" of winning. And that is not good enough for me to live up to my "guarantee." Now, if I gave you strong evidence that I had rigged the lottery and demonstrated how, if everything goes right, you will win no matter what lottery number you choose, then I have met my burden of proof. Now you have more than a mere possibility that what I say is true. You have evidence to support my claim and I have met the burden of proof that you demanded from me.

 

That is how you must view these extraordinary claims that RFIDs are the fulfillment of Revelation 13. That is an extraordinary claim and so you must begin by not believing it and demand credible evidence to support the extraordinary claim. When you do this, you will learn that the evidence is not there.

 

I will post something later to demonstrate why the extraordinary claim cannot be true as a matter of fact, logic, and proper reasoning.

[Kris]

Thanks for doing some research and getting back to me. I get what you are saying about this lady trying to sell books that play on people's fears-- I have often thought that many of the end-time authors used fear to make money,and in my opinion, that is as wrong as any sin that you or I could commit. I look forward to your additional posts. For the most part, I have been able to disregard most of these nutjobs and their books--like Hal Lindsay because he always was able to modify how the end of the world would occur based on the changes in history. Like when he thought that Jesus would return by 1988-- because of the 40-year generation quote in the bible and the fact that Israel became a nation in 1948. He had to backpedal in 1989-- and come up with a different scenario. I guess that K. Albrecht's story scared me a bit more because it seemed somewhat plausible in that RFID could be used to track people and also be used for monetary transactions. And there was a distinct possiblity that this bit of technoogy could directly affect me in the future in that I might have to make a choice to put something like this in me. All of that combined made me scared.

 

One of the things that I have been doing as a way of therapy is to take the scenario that microchips in humans might become commonplace. What would this look like and what would it mean for me. I think that we will begin using our cell phones as payment devices in the near future-- perhaps credit card applications will be downloaded on our iphones or other phone systems and will will use this in conjunction with contactless readers,etc. Eventually, there may come a time when scientists come up with a microchip that can be placed in the body to monitor functions-- and then relay the information to a cell phone or computer system. This information would then go to a doctor who could access how his patient is doing. This could eventually lead to people wanting to have information about themselves stored in a computer-readable chip somewhere on their body (for purposes of this scenario, let's say that due to public outcry, the manufacturers of these chips make sure to avoid the hands or forehead in order to avoid any allusion to the MOTB), so that if they wanted to travel out of the country, they could pass through a scanner that would immediately identify who they were, etc. This could also be done by biometric analysis, and I would think that this method would be much less intrusive-- but that is side-tracking. All of this is plausible, and could happen in the future, perhaps in my life-time. Now, here is where I think--could all of this take place without the Anti-christ coming on the scene?-- of course. We could all end up roaming around with some sort of chip in us, and life could just roll on. Katherine Albrecht would say--I never said that these chips WERE the MOTB, I think that they are just a pre-cursor, ala Hal Lindsey and ilk. And, to me, that scenario would be fantastic!!

 

Then my mind goes to the dark side-- and starts imagining the government forcing us to put these chips in our right hands (why anyone would put a microchip in their forehead is beyond me--can't find a logical reason for this one!!)and failure to do so would result in criminal punishment. Since I have always been a law-abider, I would have a really hard time with this. I would probably end up submitting to getting the chip so I could hold down my job, etc. Would this condmemn me to hell? In this scenario, I keep thinking that there is a lot missing to the story-- like shouldn't there be a world ruler that we all want to worship because he has performed all kinds of neat miracles, etc? Wouldn't us wanting to get this "mark" or sign of allegience be about showing our loyalty to him, rather than wanting to function in society? Why would God send a bunch of people to hell just because they put a chip in their body because it was required by their government? And aren't we supposed to be obedient anyway? But then here is where I start getting worried about the scriptures because it does specifically refer to buying and selling and taking a mark.

 

Years ago, I remember hearing about "ashes of the red heifer" and how some rancher in Texas was working with some rabbis in Isreal to grow a perfect red heifer that could then be used to make sacrifices again. It was thought that once people in Israel starting offering animal sacrifices to god again, that would herald the end of the world.

Even though this was going on after I left church and had tried to stop worrying about all of this stupid stuff, I got scared. I looked up information on the internet for a few months-- and then one day, ran across an article where the rancher had to give up because his heifers all had a few hairs that were not red, which invalidated them as candidates to sacrifice. This caused me to be so relieved, I quit worrying about this!!

 

A few years ago, I was watching the Today Show and some guy was being interviewed who stated that he thought he had discovered the "ark of the covenant". I remember getting scared again-- because I thought that if someone discovered this artifact, that would indicate the the bible was true, and Israel might want to rebuild the temple, etc. I went ahead and watched the interview and was quickly relieved to find that he found some sort of "bowl" in Africa that he thought was the ark, but it did not resemble the ark described in the bible at all. Nor did it contain the original ten commandments or any of that good stuff.-- Again, I was so relieved!!

 

With this microchip thing-- I have not found the magic bullet that would allow me to be relieved. I was hoping that my research on how most bible scholors think that Revelation alludes to Nero would help, but I still find myself worrying because, like I said-- this is one of those things that ultimately, I might have to decide whether or not I want to particpate in-- and in doing so-- will I risk my soul? It seems so stupid-- and that is why I want so badly not to believe in God-- because I don't want to be in this position.

 

Also, thanks Ebonileigh for your comments. It means alot to know that there are others out there that get where I am coming from regarding end-time fears. For those that have not been indoctrinated-- they really have no idea how horrible it feels to be trapped by these things.

[Overcame Faith]

Argument I. Your fear of microchips is not supported by the very scriptures that form the basis of your fear.

 

Here is the basis for your fear, in your own words:

 

Like I have said, I have read about all the literature that I can get my hands on, from preterist interpetations of Revelation, to people like Robert Price, and I still get scared that somehow if I put this stupid thing in my body, I will condemn myself to HELL. I have to say, though, that I don't think that any hell that god would send me to would be any worse than the hell I am putting my self through by worrying about all of this!

 

As you stated, your fear is that if you put a microchip into your body you will condemn yourself to hell. So, according to your fear, all it will take for you to be condemned to hell is to put a microchip into your body and nothing more. And this is apparently why you focus your fears on microchips.

 

For the remainder of what I have to say, let's assume that, in fact, you are correct that a microchip is somehow the MOTB. Understand, though, this is only for purposes of what is to follow. I don't believe that for a minute, but I will use your assumption to prove that as a matter of the scriptures themselves you are absolutely wrong in your belief that having a microchip implanted into your body will consign you to hell and, therefore, your fear is baseless as a matter of the very scriptures which form the basis of your fear.

 

Here are the verses from Revelation that introduce the MOTB:

 

Revelation 13:11-18

 

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

 

Note first that your assumption that it is the anti-christ which forces people to get the MOTB is incorrect. Rather, it is the second beast who "...had two horns like a lamb, but who spoke like a dragon..." who actually causes people to get the mark. Notice what else this second beast does. He causes people to worship the first beast (the anti-christ), he performs miracles, he causes an image of the anti-christ to be built and he "gives breath" to the image so the image could speak, and, finally, he kills anyone who refuses to worship the image. All of this is done by the second beast, not the anti-christ.

 

Let's look at what divine consequences befall a person who takes the MOTB (a microchip for purposes of our assumption). Here are the verses that deal with that.

 

Revelation 14:9-12

 

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

The answer is that there are no divine consequences for merely taking the MOTB, or to put it into terms consistent with your fears, taking a microchip into their bodies. Rather, there are, in fact, three requirements for god to punish these people and all three of them must be met before there will be divine retribution:

 

1. The person must worship the beast (anti-christ); and,

2. The person must worship the image of the beast; and,

3. The person must take the MOTB on the forehead or on the hand.

 

The conclusion is clear based on a plain reading of the scriptures which form the basis of your fears. Any person can take as many microchips in any part of their bodies as they please and they will not suffer divine retribution for that act. Rather, in addition to having the microchip (again, if we assume it is the MOTB), they must also worship the anti-christ himself and worship the image of the anti-christ caused to be built by the second beast.

 

What is more, this second beast must arise before there is any danger of any of this and he must perform the exact miracles described in Revelation before any of it is at issue anyway.

 

Conclusion: The scriptures themselves prove that your fear that putting a microchip into your body will consign you to hell is baseless.

[Overcame Faith]

Argument II: Your interpretation of the scriptures creates a contradiction with other scriptures proving the falsity of your belief.

 

For purposes of this argument, we will assume two things to be true. First, as with Argument I, we will assume that the MOTB is, in fact, a microchip which is implanted into a person's body. Second, we will assume that, notwithstanding Argument I, consistent with your fear all that is required for you to be consigned to hell is to take the MOTB in the form of a microchip into your body. Again, I do not agree with these assumptions and, as I have demonstrated, I believe they are patently false. But for purposes of what follows, we will simply assume their truth.

 

Here is an excerpt from one of my own studies that I referenced in a previous post I did when I was trying to lose the baggage of Christianity. In this part, I wanted to make sure I understood the crux of the Christian salvation message. I think what follows is a pretty good rending of what the scriptures say about what a person must do to escape hell:

 

Despite the failure and sinful heart of human beings, God did not give up on them. He devised a second plan which allowed people to escape hell and have eternal life despite their sinful nature. This plan was for God to send his only begotten son, Jesus, to earth in human form to die on a cross as an atonement for sin. Matthew 20:28; John 3:16; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 Peter 2:24; Romans 3:25-26.

 

Only the son of God could be an atonement because only he was free from sin and thus deserving of eternal life. John 8:46; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5. When he died on the cross, the sinless Jesus took all sin unto himself and, though he alone did not deserve it, died the death, in the place of all people, that sin requires. 2 Corinthians 5:21. By so dying, Jesus satisfied the requirement of death on account of sin once for all. Hebrews 10:10. Though there would still be physical death, Jesus’ atoning death allows at least some people to escape hell and have eternal spiritual life. John 3:16. This eternal spiritual life is to be spent in heaven in the very presence of God. Matthew 6:20; Matthew 13:43; Matthew 22:30; Matthew 25:34: Luke 20:34-36; John 10:28; John 14:2-4. Put succinctly, people can escape hell and can enter heaven only because Jesus died for their sins.

 

The primary divergence among Christians is the question of whether there is anything that the individual must do to escape hell and enter heaven that Jesus’ atoning death allows. There are generally three ways Christians attempt to answer this question. The first is that there is nothing any person neither can nor must do because Jesus’ death did it all. (Generally, this is a form of Calvinism or predestination.) The second is that people must profess belief in Jesus to take advantage of the atoning death. (John 3:16; Ephesians 3:9 (Grace through faith)). The third is that doing good works factors in to whether people can take advantage of the atoning death. (See the book of James in particular for this view.) The various Christian denominations are generally formed around how they answer these questions.

 

I encourage you to read the above quote carefully and make sure you understand it. In so doing, you should read all the scriptural references.

 

If we go with the assumptions, that is your fears, then the salvation plan will have been nullified once the antichrist and the second beast reach the scene. In other words, Satan through his anti-christ and the second beast beat Jesus out by making his atoning death worthless. And it is worthless because, according to our assumptions, taking the MOTB nullifies Jesus' atoning death and the sole deciding factor for being sent to hell is taking the MOTB, not Jesus' sacrifice for sins.

 

Remember, Hebrews said "...we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Get it? Once for all. There are no exceptions stated in Hebrews for those who are unfortunate enough to be alive at the time of the anti-christ and the second beast and who are forced to get the MOTB. It is ONCE FOR ALL. For all people, everyone of them no matter when or where they live.

 

Yet the scenario that you fear is completely contradictory to the salvation plan as expressed in the new testament. If you are correct, then the salvation plan is incorrect because Jesus atoning death is insufficient to save you from hell once you take the MOTB. If the salvation plan is correct, then you must be incorrect because taking the MOTB cannot overrule the power of the atoning death or, in fact, Satan will have defeated the entire purpose for Jesus coming to earth.

 

Now, let me make this perfectly clear. I am absolutely convinced that both you and the salvation plan are incorrect. There is no salvation plan and no need for one and Revelation is no book of prophecy. However, what I have demonstrated is that by the very scriptures themselves, you simply cannot be correct and your fears are baseless.

[Kris]

I am really reading, and trying to understand what you have to say about what the scriptures actually say. I have oftened wondered why there had to be a "mark" to begin with-- isn't the entire scripture talking about god being upset over people worshiping someone other than him? And, I still don't really understand the first beast and the second beast, and having to worship a statue and all the other stuff. Doesn't seem to make all that much sense in our days.

 

But, I am still a bit scared of Rev 14:11 because it says: 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." The "or" is what trips me up, and the torment that rises for ever and ever. What do you think about that?

 

One thing that i have read is that Revelation also talks about god "writing" his name in people's foreheads that he plans to protect--and that this is considered to by symbolic, or certainly not a "microchip"-- and that a lot of fundamentalists tend to gloss over this-- they want a literal mark for the beast but accept a non-literal mark for god's chosen.

[par4dcourse]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the Big Book of Jewish Faery Tales.

Occam's razor: most likely outcome of death, you'll be dead.

[Overcame Faith]

But, I am still a bit scared of Rev 14:11 because it says: 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." The "or" is what trips me up, and the torment that rises for ever and ever. What do you think about that?

 

My Argument II takes this into account. That argument assumes that all that is required for you to go to hell is to take the MOTB as Revelation 14:11 seems to say and my conclusion is that you are still wrong.

 

However, let me comment on Revelation 14:11. But let's not take it out of context as you have done. Here is the full passage:

 

Revelation 14:9-12

 

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

If we read the above the way you want to, then there are two different punishments possible for someone who takes the MOTB. The first punishment applies only to the person who does all three things I described in my previous post (worships the beast, worships the image of the beast, and receives the MOTB). This is what happens to that person:

 

1. He will drink the wine of God's fury; and,

2. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb; and,

3. His torment will rise for ever and ever.

 

A fair reading indicates that these three things can only apply to the person who does all three things set forth in Revelation 14:9. After the punishment is described for someone who did all three misdeeds, a new sentence starts with Revelation 14:11. It says, "There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." You argue that Revelation 14:11 states that because of the insertion of the "or," that even if someone merely takes the MOTB they will be punished. However, if that is true then we must read Revelation 14:11 as describing what will happen to two different groups of people. The first group are those who worship the beast and his image but who did not receive the mark; and the second group, divided by "or," are those who receives the mark of his name but did not worship the beast and his image. If this is a correct interpretation, then these two groups of people have a lesser punishment. Their punishment is "no rest day or night" and nothing more.

 

It is that kind of silliness you get when you try to read scriptures out of context. It is clear that a full and complete reading of Revelation 14:9-12 requires that a person do all three things before they are punished and that simply accepting the MOTB results in no punishment or else you get silly absurdities as I described above.

[Kris]

Than you for posting further on this-- I can appreciate looking at text logically to see what it actually says without any modern interpetation. I am trying to do this... believe me!! Since you do not believe any of this and obviously do not fear that any of this is true-- how do you invision the next 50 years or so? I remember when I was about 14 years old-- I never thought I would live to see 22,or even 32 (I turned 32 in the year 2000!), but here I am almost 43 years old, and am still around. I would love to see 83 years old! That would be so great-- and all that I want. Honestly, if a genie popped out of a bottle and gave me three wishes, my first would be that there would be no hell, and the second would be that the world would not end. My third would probably have something to do with getting a lot of money-- but at least my first two have to do with helping everyone else out as well!

[Jds22]

how do you invision the next 50 years or so?

 

As a recent deconvert from the Hal Lindsey/Left Behind mindset this was a bit of a sticky widget for me too.

 

Truth is, nobody knows, how could we? Nations rise and nations fall. Economies grow and economies shrink. I can say that I am more excited about the future now than I ever was as a Christian. All of the new discoveries and technologies that will be made. So much to learn and experience.

 

I feel so much happier and optimistic now that I have escaped from that belief system that controlled me for 25 years, I'll be 43 this summer btw. I do have to fight back anger and bitterness from time to time but I am determined not to let it get the best of me.

 

Don't know if that helped or not.

 

[Kris]

You are exactly the same age as me-- so you probably grew up with the exact same preaching. I am happy to hear from you that you are no longer afraid of the future. I want to get back to that point as well!

[Shyone]

You are exactly the same age as me-- so you probably grew up with the exact same preaching. I am happy to hear from you that you are no longer afraid of the future. I want to get back to that point as well!

I am both optomistic and pessimistic about the future. I believe that we owe it to ourselves to learn what we can now, do what we can now, experience what we can now, because tomorrow may be very different from today (and not necessarily in a good way). I have the resources and ability to enjoy myself at the moment, but the economy may tank or I may have a stroke. It is clear that opportunities will not remain there indefinitely.

 

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may!

 

Carpe Diem!

[Overcame Faith]

Than you for posting further on this-- I can appreciate looking at text logically to see what it actually says without any modern interpetation. I am trying to do this... believe me!! Since you do not believe any of this and obviously do not fear that any of this is true-- how do you invision the next 50 years or so? I remember when I was about 14 years old-- I never thought I would live to see 22,or even 32 (I turned 32 in the year 2000!), but here I am almost 43 years old, and am still around. I would love to see 83 years old! That would be so great-- and all that I want. Honestly, if a genie popped out of a bottle and gave me three wishes, my first would be that there would be no hell, and the second would be that the world would not end. My third would probably have something to do with getting a lot of money-- but at least my first two have to do with helping everyone else out as well!

 

I just turned 54 so I'm a "little" more than ten years older than you (I like saying it that way rather than saying I'm eleven years older than you. You know, the glass is half full and all of that).

 

You're right that I don't believe Revelation or any other book in the bible is any type of prophecy whatsoever. But it wasn't always that way for me. As I said in a previous post, in the 1970s and 1980s I was really into Hal Lindsey and others and I fully believed it all. I left the U.S. Navy in 1980 and started full time at the university to get my bachelor degree. One day while I was sitting in class, I had the dead serious thought that I was wasting my time by going to school since the end was obviously so near. Thankfully, I talked myself out of that thought and stayed in university and went on to law school and the practice of law. I'm a small town southern lawyer now and am so glad I stayed in school so I can work in the profession that I love so dearly. It may sound corny, but I love helping people obtain justice through the legal system.

 

As for the next 50 years, I, of course, don't know any more than anyone else knows about what will happen then. However, I do know that there will be no divine judgment of any sort on anyone. We are not in some sort of countdown to the final fight between good and evil which will end in some sort of divinely orchestrated apocalyptic showdown.

 

If the past can serve as a guide to our future, then I expect that over the next fifty years life will continue on much as it has before. People will continue working, getting married, having children, drinking beer and all the rest. I feel fairly certain that we will continue making giant leaps in technological advancements and scientific knowledge and that the vast majority of those advances will serve us all very well. I expect to see individual life expectancies continue to rise with better and better health for people of all ages, including perhaps especially the elderly. I expect that people will not only expect to live to be 83, but will also expect to still be taking care of themselve, driving their own cars, and generally doing what makes them happy at that age and well beyond. I expect to see major progress in fighting what are now killer diseases. For example, I would not be surprised at all if in fifty years, your grandchildren will have no more idea what cancer is than you or I know what polio was. We may have heard of polio, but none of us or our friends ever got it.

 

I am sure everything will not be perfect, though. I would still expect us to be fighting wars and for there to be too many poor people who are not sharing in the advances that are being made. I would love to see all religions steadily losing ground so that by fifty years from now, people of religion are the minority in the United States and other parts of the world.

 

I think that if you had three wishes and used one of them wishing there were no hell, you would be wasting a good wish since there is no hell. Personally, if I had three wishes, one of mine would be to wish that all people would be freed from the terrible fear and control that religions have imposed on them. My second wish would be for incredible personal wealth. And my third wish would be to have the wisdom to know how to use that wealth properly.

[Kris]

That was a really nice post-- and I enjoyed it very much. I think I knew that you were a lawyer before you even told me!! Just the way that you "present your evidence"! I really like your vision of the future, and would like to be a part of it. I am going to keep trying to work through my fears. I know that so many have said that not believing in the bible is what took care of all their fears. I am pouring through a lot of different books right now in order to help me with all of this-- I have read Dan Barkers "Godless"-- I have been reading some of Bart Ehrman, and Robert Price, and have a few books about debunking prophecy--one by Jim? Callahan that I have really enjoyed. I also have a book on evolution by Richard Dawkins-- that I am trying to get through, but it is a bit over my head!!

 

I am going to make a concerted effort to avoid looking at things that trigger my fears-- there is so much crap out on the internet that can scare someone like me. Even one nice poster in another area tried to be helpful to me by posting all of these failed prophecies which was great until I looked at unfulfilled (I am sure to be failed!) prophecies. I saw one about there only being one more pope until the end of the world (St. Malachy Prophecies) and got freaked out. Had I not have seen that stupid website-- I would not even be worrying about popes!! There are so many things that we can find to frighten us-- and no end to the people who will add to those fears--I probably just need to stay away. I am also going to try to reprogram my thoughts realizing that if the bible is not true, than none of this other stuff is either, and that eventually history will prove it. I just have to be patient enough to let that happen.

[Overcame Faith]

That was a really nice post-- and I enjoyed it very much.

 

Thank-you.

 

I am pouring through a lot of different books right now in order to help me with all of this-- I have read Dan Barkers "Godless"-- I have been reading some of Bart Ehrman, and Robert Price, and have a few books about debunking prophecy--one by Jim? Callahan that I have really enjoyed. I also have a book on evolution by Richard Dawkins-- that I am trying to get through, but it is a bit over my head!!

 

Good for you. Keep reading such works and soaking it in.

 

I am going to make a concerted effort to avoid looking at things that trigger my fears-- there is so much crap out on the internet that can scare someone like me. Even one nice poster in another area tried to be helpful to me by posting all of these failed prophecies which was great until I looked at unfulfilled (I am sure to be failed!) prophecies. I saw one about there only being one more pope until the end of the world (St. Malachy Prophecies) and got freaked out. Had I not have seen that stupid website-- I would not even be worrying about popes!! There are so many things that we can find to frighten us-- and no end to the people who will add to those fears--I probably just need to stay away.

 

I agree and I disagree. In the short term, I agree completely. It is probably best to avoid the doomsayers so you don't get yourself worked up. Just deal with what is already in your head for now and don't add to the problem. However, over the long term and once you start getting your fears under control, then I encourage you to confront the issues again. Go back to those websites armed with a clear head and a rational mind and then you will see them for what they are. You will see that they are all full of junk (you know what word I really wanted to use).

 

I am also going to try to reprogram my thoughts realizing that if the bible is not true, than none of this other stuff is either, and that eventually history will prove it. I just have to be patient enough to let that happen.

 

Yes, history will eventually prove that these are not prophecies. But how long must you wait for history to prove it to you. Two thousand years have already passed and the doomsayers are still going strong. This is where I gently disagree with you. You need not wait for history to prove anything. The proof is right there. You just have to learn to recognize the truth and accept it.

[SaltedWithFire]

Hello all,

 

I have spent some time looking at your website, and finally joined today. I would like to share my story, and get some help from all of you, if possible.

 

I am an only child, and was born and raised as a catholic in my early years. I really tried to be a good kid, and went through all of the rituals, etc. but had a lot of questions. I wanted to know why we had to confess our sins to a priest, why there were three deities, why should I pray to Mary, etc.... I am sure that I was very annoying to have in Sunday School!! Anyway, I finally decided that I had enough around the age of 11 or so.

 

Around this time, I saw the movie the Omen. I was scared to death, and it only got worse when my dear mother showed me the bibical scriptures in Revelation that talked about all of this in "real life". I spent about two more years praying frantically every night that God would not end the world and let all of that scary stuff happen. Not really fun to be thinking about as a child! I was a real worry-wart though, I even worried about world war III, communism, etc. so this fit right in!!

 

When I was 13, my mom had to have surgery, so she had me stay with one of her co-workers. This co-worker and her husband happened to be fundamentalist christians (United Pentecostal). My first night there consisted of a bible study on---you guessed it!! The end-times!! I was horrified, but listened to them and looked at their flow charts. I was intrigued with the concept of the rapture taking me out of the world before all of this horrible stuff could take place, so I promptly converted to their religion, getting rebaptized and all of the rest. I tried my best to be a good christian, which was very hard during my teenage years. I wore long dresses, and had long hair. I did not date, go to dances, watch sports, etc.

 

After a few years in the church, I started getting nervous before each service, worrying that the topic of discussion would be on the end-times. I hated hearing about all of this, because I was not sure if I was being a good enough christian to get to heaven, and was terrified that the rapture would take place and I would be left behind. I also worried about all of the people I knew that might go to hell, and hated thinking about that.

 

After many years of this (10 or so) I finally had enough in 1990. We had an evangelist come to our church who was a well known end-time preacher. He went on and on about temple rebuilding, mark of the beast, etc. and I was sick to my stomach. I looked around in my panic to see what others were thinking, and some of the people looked bored. I wondered how they would be so a peace, when I was losing it!! I went home that night worrying that I would never have kids, see the future, etc. and I hated it. I met with a pastor from the church a few days later to try to get some help, and he basically said they liked having this preacher come to the church to get new people in-- because fear gets them through the door, but the love of God makes them stay!! I did not feel the love of God, let me tell you!! I also asked him about a scripture that I had recently run across in which Jesus had told his apostles that some would not taste death before he returned in glory (paraphrasing here!). He did not have an answer for me. I left his office that day, and never went back to church.

 

I avoided all of the endtime literature just so I could try to get my head back together, etc, and quickly found that a lot of the things that I had been told failed to come true. No temple was being rebuilt in Israel (and would it make a difference if one was?), no ashes of the red heifer were being sacrificed by jews, no one-world government, no anti-christ. I had 2 great kids, and just lived life and enjoyed it. I actually had peace for many years. Every once in a while, I would hear something that got me scared, but I could rationalize it. I also came to find that a lot of the things in the bible were not accurate, that a lot of the stories were not true, archeology did not show that the bible was historically accurate, and on and on. I really felt like I might actually grow old!! I was very happy, and even survived 1999!!!

 

Recently, however, I have been struggling because one of my old church friends sent me a stupid email on a microchip that could be implanted into a person. I got scared all over again because it got me into the end of the world thinking-- cashless society, mark of the beast, etc. I have researched all I can on this topic, and found that the email had a lot of bad information in it, but that some there is an actual company that does use microchips for health record verification. They place it in people's right ARMS. They had experimented with using the chips as payment devices at one bar, and some patrons opted for it, while others did not. Currently, they are not actively marketing the chips for medical record tracking because it did not appear to take off, but plan to develop the chips for glucose monitoring, etc. After looking at their information, it did not appear that the devil was diabolically using them to take over the world, but it got me worried about the technology.

 

I have spent enormous amounts of time researching all I could about what the bible actually said about the MOB-- and have read how most people feel that the story was actually about imperial worship, and Nero. That does make sense. But it is hard for me to let go of my fears, because the big-ticket items for the end-times is of course the MOB and cashless society, etc. I was really hoping that I would never have to worry about all of this. I want to believe that the bible is wrong-- and therefore, I have nothing to worry about, but it is difficult to shake of the years of preaching on stuff like this. Also, I have a harder time with things like this, because they are entirely feasible. Now, not only do I worry about me, but I worry about my kids and husband as well. I mean, I do think that there will come a time when we use our cell phones or thumb prints to conduct transactions without using cash, and I use my credit and debit cards all the time-- I just get nervous thinking about something in my body. I made the mistake of going on a few religious websites on this topic, and that was not a good thing at all!! My brain went into overload worrying all over again.

 

Needless to say, I hate that I feel this way, and I hate thinking that that might be a God out there that would potentially let all of this happen. I want God or at least the bible not to be true, just so I don't have to worry about this. I had always been kind of a techno-geek, but I find myself getting edgy whenever I think about the future because I worry about possible implants, etc. I keep telling myself that as long as I don't put one in my right hand or forehead, I will be ok. I would also hope that if something like this ever became commonplace, that the developers would be smart enough to avoid those areas, just out of religous sensitivity. Then I might not have to worry so much. Personally, I just think that fingerprints or eyescans of some sort should be our "human barcode", because they would limit tracking abilities, etc. but that it just me.

 

My husband still believes in Jesus, etc, but even he is not worried about microchips. He just thinks it is new technology. He has never really gotten all that worked up over end-times things. He feels like the MOB would be something that people would have to take as a result of worship-- like a dedication to a god of some sort. The microchip is just something to conduct business with no affinity to anything in particular.

 

How do the rest of you handle things like this? I really want to get back to the peace that I once had in my life, when I could laugh off the latest end of the world rumor, but I haven't gotten to that point yet. Any advice?

Questioner, Yes, I do have some advice, but first I want to say that I identify completely with the horrible religious experience you have endured. I experienced the same things: Pentecostalism, the Mark of the Beast, the Rapture of the church, and a lot more fundamentalistic nonsense. I have addressed all of these issues and more in my book, "Spiritual Terrorism: Spiritual Abuse from the Womb to the Tomb." Chapter two is especially pertinent, "Spiritual Killers: Protestant," in which I deal with Biblical prophecy. You can stop worrying about "The Mark of The Beast;" it is not the number of "a man" per the KJV and most other translations. The New International Version, correctly translated this numerology as "man's number." This does not refer to a person at all. Also, probably everything you have heard about The Revelation (fundy usually pronounce it "RevelationS")is from the futuristic view. It is only one of four historical views of the book, but it is probably the worst one. The only "good" thing about the futuristic view (even though it has scared the hell out of a lot of people)is that it can never be disproven since it is always future. The probable correct view of The Revelation is the modalistic view. This view contends that The Revelation is not end-of-the-world prophecy at all but a dramstization of the principles of good and evil in conflict which is applicable to every age but is specific to none. You might want to visit my website: HealingSpiritualTerrorism.com. There is life after Christian Fundamentalism. Truth will set you free, Boyd Purcell, Ph.D.

[franklyorange]

Put all this shit behind you and get on with the rest of your life!