Answered Prayer

[zfunkman]

You're absolutely right except for the part where it turns out your comment wasn't as benign as you had thought.  If you had made your comments and no one reacted as some have then you would have simply had a debate on your hands.  Unfortunately for you there were some negative reactions and you in turn add insult to injury.  I don't think it was intentional but it happened nonetheless.  I tried to give you the opening to properly explain what "lesson" Becca (and the others for that matter) should have taken away from their experiences instead of those things they expressed in their messages.  You did not.  You provided more generalities and platitudes.  Finally, in the quote above, you simply call her, and her feelings, irrational.  Maybe they are to you but when you were down and out (you've never provided any details so how down and out you were and the cause for it is unknown and a little suspect) would you have wanted to been insulted by being considered "irrational?"  I doubt it.  Becca, myself, and others, want our feelings taken seriously and since you've offered up a "solution" I am once again providing you with the opportunity to present it to us.  I personally would love to hear in more detail (along the lines of what others in this thread have done) your personal testimony surrounding your fall and subsequent recovery.  I would also love to hear you offer some real advice concerning Becca.  Everyone knows that you don't know her and that you didn't experience anything she did but you seem to belittle her for not knowing how to "pull herself up by her bootstraps" (so to speak) which is unfair.  If you have something more to offer than slogans like "just do it" then I know that I am all ears (eyes in this case).

You can learn equally well from both good and bad experiences.  The bad ones just seem to stick out.  I know I have had more good days in my life but the bad ones are far more memorable and I would imagine that the result of that is any "lesson" learned is exaggerated in importance.  I can whip out many "bad" stories in my life and lessons learned from bad experiences.  They come easy.  The lessons that resulted from "good" things don't come as easy but they may be more important in many ways.  When I finally realized that my family (unlike others I know, and on this board) loved me pretty much unconditionally and was there for me was a great lesson not built on pain.  When I met my wife and she loved me for all my faults (and there's plenty of those trust me).  These are "good" things that are mostly taken for granted but have been learned and integrated into my being whether or not I am truly aware of them.  Good, bad and everything in between is learned and integrated.

 

    I have "learned" that people consider "bad" things character builders and more valuable than "good" things.  This view depends on how you define character.  Bad things tend to force people inward.  They become withdrawn, lack trust and fear people in general.  Good things tend to do the opposite and bring people out of themselves.  Which is the more valuable trait to you?  Children are neat because, for the most part, they have this built in trust.  Should I purposely hurt them to teach them trust can be bad?  I've been lied to more times than I can count.  I am wary of people since I tend to think they'll lie to me.  This is not the person I care to be so I often force myself to trust people on the simple hope they'll be honest (don't think I'm guillable though since that's not what I mean).  It comes back to bite me on the ass more than I like but I prefer the problem to be them lying to me than with me being closed off.  According to you I'm not learning the lesson but from my point of view I see it as I am giving them a chance to show me who they are and if they're honorable or not.  If I didn't then I don't think I'd like myself and that's more important to me.

 

    To put the above into a little perspective.  I loved God with all my heart and soul.  There was absolutely no question in my mind that He was real and loved me in return.  When I say absolutely no question I mean absolutely no question.  Through all the troubles in my life (and the lives of friends and family) there is no time that I can think of that I ever even came close to questioning God or His reasons.  Not a single time.  All things happened for a reason, God's reason, and if I were to know he would tell me.  He could do absolutely no wrong in my eyes.  I knew that if, or when, the time came that I would die for God (not in a terrorist way mind you but a getting eaten by lions martyr sort of way since I thought another Christian persecution, ala Rome, was coming).  I saw such a death as the most honorable death...to die in the service of God.  I need you to understand this point since it is very, very important.  God was not just some "thing" to me.  He wasn't a way to be part of a group or meet people or anything like that.  He was real and I loved Him more than anyone or anything else including myself (except maybe my wife...I like to think that I loved God more but I'd have to give the edge to her...maybe this was the beginning of the end from God's point of view).  I asked Him for wisdom.  I asked Him for knowledge.  I asked Him for understanding.  I asked Him to do with my life what He wanted and not what I wanted.  I perceived every problem that I experienced as my fault and not His.  I asked Him for guidance.  I asked Him for a wife since I was horribly lonely.  I honestly thought I was getting these things from God.  Jump to the end of last year.  I asked Him to help me preserve my faith.  I asked Him to give me the smallest little indication that He was still with me.  I asked Him to save this little lamb.  I stopped simply asking and started begging.  I begged and begged and begged.  I would not, could not, give up.  Some days I prayed so hard and sweat so much I was always surprised when I never found any blood (like Jesus in the garden).  I tried one last time.  I asked Him for anything.  Just anything.  I got silence.  Horrible deafening silence.  Not a twinge or a tickle.  Nothing.  It was over.  God abandoned me.  I was the little lamb that wouldn't be found by the good shepherd.  I never made a single selfish request (that I can recall...although I'm sure when I was younger I must have).  I understood god was not some sort of prayer "vending machine" and could answer with yes, no or maybe later except for the final prayer I made.  The bible assured me that this one prayer would be answered with a big yes every single time.  The bible told me that jesus was standing there knocking and all I had to do was invite him in and it would happen right then and there.  No waiting.  A promise was made and not kept.  I was not angry or upset by any of this (until months later when my wife threw it back in my face).  I was numb.  I was confused.  I was lost.  My world had just collapsed.  My life no longer seemed real.  I just discovered that "god," at least the "god" I knew, simply did not exist.  Surprisingly enough it didn't take too long to pick up the pieces and get on with life.  I felt a lot better than I had in a long time (many years) not living in "god's" perfect shadow.  The best thing is that I didn't become evil and fall into some depraved decadent lifestyle.  I still live and act just like I did before.  I just feel "free" for lack of a better word.

 

    Still with me Mad_Gerbil?  Now, tell me what lesson I was supposed to have learned?  Tell me how my experience was a lesson to bring me closer to "god?"  We both know this is the issue you've been skirting.  The one I gave you a chance to present.  Lessons are designed to make us stronger individuals and bring us closer to "god."  I know exactly the rational behind this argument since I used to push the same view.  In Becca's case she had real abusers in her parents.  She should be grateful since that abuse made her strong enough to escape the abuse.  We'll ignore the collateral damage  We'll rationalize the circular reasoning to say her parents weren't real Christians and Becca should have realized that and got closer to God to know what a true relationship with Him is like.  Instead she blamed the wrong person, the only one a child who is abused by authority figures, could ever trust.  The one more powerful than her abusers.  Certainly He will stand up for her?  Wrong.  He let her down.  Either he sided with the abusers or he didn't exist.  To be hated by "god" so much to deserve that kind of treatment is unthinkable.  Fortunately, she came to the right decision.  Biblegod does not exist.  In her and my case we both had "god" as abusers.  How can we possibly get closer to the thing that is abusing us?  Speaking for myself I can see no obligation on my part, ever, to seek out a relationship with biblegod.  I gave my all and got nothing.  If biblegod exists he'll have to seek me out.  He knows where I live and there's any open invite for him (and any other supernatural creature for that matter) to visit.  To date I've had no visitors.

 

    To everyone who made it this far I'm sorry if this message seems to wander around a bit.  It's been one of those days.   Also, talking about "god" in this way starts to piss me off (when I'm in this mode I can literally argue this stuff for hours...and have a number of times recently).

 

          mwc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great post mwc ! Very well written. I can relate and was very moved. I'll look forward to reading your next post

[Ouroboros]

Zfunkman, please don't quote the whole message from mwc. Just keep the reference, to save bandwidth.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Thirdly, some blame do fall on you MG, you have a tendency to write your posts in a manner that easily is misunderstood to be rude, and I don't know if that is what you want it to be or not. Personally I give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't intended your posts to be rude or derogative towards anyone in any way, but unfortunately it seems to me that many have taken it that way. So I encourage you to balance your words carefully to avoid words that creates emotional responses, or maybe just step to the sideline in this particular topic for a little while, to let the dust settle.

 

Hans (wishing a little bit more understanding from both sides)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Han,

 

I invite anyone who has a problem with what I say to contact me via PM for the purposes of clarification. Sometimes one or two PMs can clear this stuff up rather quickly. All PMs I receive are kept private.

 

As a note to the community -- if I've had a run in with you recently that has ended badly I'll likely not respond to your posts for some time. That isn't me being rude, it is me backing off and allowing you to vent without me jumping in to push your buttons again.

 

Take care.

[Cerise]

(just so Hans has a reference)

 

Cataloging the rudeness of a Gerbil:

 

1). Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy. While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

 

Implications: You must be able to turn your adversity into an accomplishment.

 

2). From by perspective, if a person is still living with life crushing bitterness he or she has yet to 'come through' the fire -- but instead are still living within it and allowing it to rule his or her life.

 

Implications: By not "learning a lesson" a person who has been abused is consumed with bitterness and allowing pain to rule their life.

 

I do keep in mind that you say you are not telling anyone else how they should live. But your tone implies that you think your way to be the best, even the only way to live with pain. And your repitition of this attitude towards survivors of abuse shows an ugly kind of pesistence.

 

3) a. I'm not judging anyone here because that isn't my role in life and I don't know enough about anyone here to do that even if it were my role.

 

Nonsense. Your very tone implies a judgement. Your very ideology implies a judgement. At least be honest about what you are doing.

 

4) I hope those scars never go away because they teach you to NOT EVER allow anyone to abuse you like that again. It is awful you had to go through that; however, the scars are what keep it from happening again.

 

Implications: Repeated your ideology once more. You insinuate that now that Becca has "learned her lesson" because of emotional scarring, she can go through life blithely and without fear of more abuse. What will happen if Becca is abused once more? Will you consider it her fault because she forgot the lessons of her scars? You imply that abuse can onyl happen once, and only if you aren't paying attention to your "lessons".

 

5) It was my belief that the pain and suffering taught you something and I tried to bring that out; however, you've proven that it hasn't taught you a thing.

 

Implications: "it hasn't taught you a thing" is quite scornful in its tone. You are still implying that Becca should have learned something from her abuse, and it is her fault that she did not.

 

6) Cerise, without exception the wisest people I know are the ones that have endured a great deal of hardship. The most vaccous people I know are people who've had everything easy. Your experiences are part of the reason why you hang out here -- part of the reason why you aren't a dizzy fashion conscious blonde who only cares about jewlery.

Implications: Pain improves the character and personalities of people. You are only who you are because someone hurt you. The abuse made you. You are its product.

 

I don't think I have to explain that hurtful quality of those implications.

 

7) The real tragety is people who don't learn -- those that do should still remember the pain but be happy they know they don't have to go back there and be glad to have learned.

 

Implications: You and Becca are ungrateful and unintelligent for not learning your lessons. This is probably why you are still hurting, because you refuse to learn your lesson. It is your own fault.

 

8) Everyone who has had a crushing experience simply PM me and I'll admit that you didn't learn a thing if you want.

 

Implications: Flippant tone. Once again, quite scornful. Emphasis on "YOU didn't learn a thing". It's your fault if you don't learn.

 

9) It is the nature of life that bad stuff happens to entirely innocent people and there are two ways to handle it -- one can have a negative reaction, curl up into a ball, and die OR one can fight, learn, and grow. (most people have a combination of reactions).

 

Implications: There are only two ways to deal with pain. If you don't deal with pain MY way (i.e. by "fighting, learning, and growing" from it) than you must be doing the other thing, curling into a ball and dying. There is no room for any other pain coping mechanism that is THE ONE TRUE WAY. It is Gerbil's way or the highway.

 

10) Thank you for your thoughtful reply -- it is an oasis.

 

Implications: Everyone else has made un-thoughtful replies. Everyone else is wrong and raving because they disagree with me. Their hurt feelings at the way I've expressed myself are their own faults.

 

11) However, I cannot allow people who insist on seeing things in the worst possible light to completely suppress my free speech because of some need to twist even the most benign comment into an irrational mess.

 

Implications: Becca is irrational, and her anger with me is irrational. I am right and everyone else is wrong.

 

12) I never claimed everyone does learn from it -- in fact, I admitted some people don't learn a thing. I'd encourage everyone to try and learn something from whatever may have happened but clearly not everyone choses to do so.

 

Implications: People "choose" not to learn, which implies that there is always something to be learned from abuse. That a survivor doesn't learn is a result of stubbourness.

 

13) Perhaps if someone finds him/herself incapable of handling the discussion without being reduced to a ranting lunatic that person should seek out a forum designed to support him/her where he or she is at in the journey.

 

Implications: Becca and others who were hurt by my words are ranting lunatics who can't handle a rational discussion. All their pain is entirely their own fault and nothing whatsoever to do with my words and tone.

 

If you could stop blaming everybody else when you say something that makes you sound like a prick, MG, then it is quite likely that a discussion could continue. Instead, you ignore everyone that is hurt by you and attempt to blame them for the misconceptions (if they are misconceptions, personally I think I know your personality well enough to be properly suspicious of you when you say you don't intend to harm the women of this board) you allow to be broadcast.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Cerise:

 

You've managed to document your ability to read into a text exactly what you need to flame someone -- is what you've documented -- because I can say catagorically that none of those implications are even remotely accurate.

 

Be assured, if I felt you were being totally irrational I'd come out and say it. If I thought you were some raving lunatic I'd just come out and say it. I wouldn't have to imply it -- I feel perfectly free to be direct.

 

Fun Exercise: Look through all the posts and find all the quotes where I say things like "I'm speaking in general terms", "I mean as a general rule", or "This is what has worked for me" and you'll see I was constantly going for the general discussion of the topic which is something other than the implied personal attacks you think you see there.

[Dhampir]

...We had a friend who attended another church from the one we went to. Don't quite know how we met him...Brother Anthony, I believe we referred to him as. Tall dude, with afro and glasses, and a rather strainy voice.

 

My father gave his life to christ around february or so of 1998, when he was bedridden, and suffering from emphysema, kidney failure, and oh yes, lung cancer. It was a deathbed conversion.

 

But I digress. This Brother Anthony came to our house and spent roughly three hours over my father's deathbed, praying most fervently, in addition to what must have been dozens of solitary and group prayer hours spent on that subject. Two days later, my father died.

 

The funniest thing about it (and we including my very religous family had a good laugh about it) was how disappointed Bro. Anthony felt when his prayer wasn't answered the exact way he asked. At the time it was because we were of that same silly notion that god's will is done no matter how you pray for it. Now I think it's funny because that's a stupid fuckin' notion.

 

 

If an omni-god exists, that can do anything, and knows everything, and who is benevolent, in a finite capacity at least, then prayer serves no purpose other than to stroke the ego of said being. Which wouldn't be so bad if he deigned to answer.

 

If benevolence is a whim of this omni-god, then prayer is useless because his movements were decided upon eternity past, and it can do nothing to change it.

 

So, which is it? Is it useless, or is it useless?

[Ouroboros]

Which wouldn't be so bad if he deigned to answer.

Eh?

 

If benevolence is a whim of this omni-god, then prayer is useless because his movements were decided upon eternity past, and it can do nothing to change it.

Yup. Playing dice gives more results and better results more times than prayer.

 

So, which is it?  Is it useless, or is it useless?

Third door... useless.

 

But not completely. I said in an earlier post that prayer is for the prayee. The person who spend his time praying get similar effects like the person who do meditation or tai chi or something. It's about learning to focus and meditate.

 

**edit**

 

And it does have a "sugar-pill" effect if you pray for someone that is sick. S/he can emotionally get stronger and fight of the sickness better if they believe they will get better. I don't believe in supernatura answers, but I do believe that psychozomatic effects on our bodies and health does exist. And prayer can reinforce that. And this means that remote-prayer doesn't have any effect at all, it has to be one site and with a sick person that believes already. Then it doesn't matter which god or gods you pray to either.

 

But other than those two things... nothing.

[Dhampir]

If god personally answered any prayers, and wanted the ego stroking involved with being prayed to for something he knows he was already going to grant.

 

Eh?

[Dhampir]

Actually I agree whole heartedly with you Han, except with the uselessness of remote prayer.

 

It does work, in that you must consider the group mind. 'I need money to pay my rent this month, would y'all pray for me?'

 

'Oh hallelujah! The church took up a collection to get me the money I need to pay my rent AND one of the friends of the church is a financial consultant who just negotiated with my landlord on my behalf to get my rent lowered by fifty dollars. God is good!

[Ouroboros]

If god personally answered any prayers, and wanted the ego stroking involved with being prayed to for something he knows he was already going to grant.

 

Eh?

It was the word "deigned" that I didn't get.

I learned a new word today, I never heard "deigned" before.

[Mythra]

Yup. Playing dice gives more results and better results more times than prayer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course, it is a non-scientific study, but I've been tracking my percentages on crossing my fingers. So far 62% have come through, 18% still pending, and 20% have not worked out.

 

I think I'm on to something.

 

Anybody need anything? I'll be in my prayer closet tonight from 7:00 to 7:05.

 

(I'm working into it slowly)

[Ouroboros]

Of course, it is a non-scientific study, but I've been tracking my percentages on crossing my fingers.  So far 62% have come through, 18% still pending, and 20% have not worked out. 

un truymg tp tuke wytj crpssed fymgers.

(I'm trying to type with crossed fingers.)

[mwc]

First off, I'm stating general approaches to facing the ugliness in our lives because the route to handling difficult times is different for each person.  You may not realize it but you've set a trap here -- if I do comment on a specific situation it will be claimed "You dont' know me, you arrogant pig.... you don't know me at all how dare you?" -- and rightfully so.  If I refuse to comment on people and situations to which I don't have details then I'm portrayed as a coward.

 

I'm not interested in getting down to particulars here because that isn't appropriate on a public forum.  When I point in a general direction it is for the sake of a general discussion and it can go no further in this forum.  You'll see time and time again I'm sharing what worked in my life -- that is all.

I'm willing to concede that you are in a precarious position here. I did not intentionally set a trap but I do see it. I tried to qualify my statements so that you could offer some, more specific, advice without getting too much flac from others. I can see that the only way to minimize this further is to offer myself up to you. I gave enough details in my last posting for you to draw some conclusion in your mind. If you feel up to it simply tell me what you would do if you were in my shoes. I'll tell you if you're on the right track or not. Since I had a philosophy very much like the one you display here I am willing to be more patient, and understanding, than some of the other posters (and I can't blame them really...their reactions and my new overall point of view really shows why I got some of the reactions I got over the years).

 

There are really two separate, but very related, problems I see being argued here (like two sides of the same coin). The first would be the human only aspect. Easily explained as how does one deal with a problem (assuming no god, or other supernatural being, is involved). Your advice seems to be leaning towards this view. If there is simply no god then there is no real "lesson" to be learned in most situations unless you want to simply equate "lesson" and "experience." The experience of abuse should teach you to avoid abuse and to not abuse. Much easier said than done. Let's assume that lesson is learned and that person never abuses or is abused again. Does that person come out stronger or better? Most people who are abused become closed off in some fashion. They are afraid of trusting others since they don't want to be abused again. Often times they sabatoge their own relationships to avoid the possibility of abuse in the future. Like the saying goes "once bitten, twice shy." So the abused person may be stronger in the sense that they won't be abused again (or be an abuser in this example) but there's a very real possibility that they also will not experience healty "normal" relationships during their lifetime. The abuse was painful enough but the side-effects from that abuse, even when no longer in an abusive situation, is long lasting and, in some ways, more devastating than the abuse itself. If you read everything I written correctly you should start to see a little paradox. To learn the "lesson" of abuse you must protect yourself. To learn the lesson of "protecting yourself" you must open yourself up to abuse. A balance must be struck but the for the victim the ability to find this balance can be a very slow process. To imply that someone can simply "get over it" (not your words but I am summerizing what I think you're saying) is just a slap in the face.

 

The second is the same argument but now there is some god in the mix. This is what you're steering away from. The problem with that approach is the thread is "Replying to Answered Prayer" and you, by your affilliation, are taking the pro-god position. This is why I offered up a little of my story instead of once again soley pointing to someone else. You (again by your affiliation and not your words) tell us, tell me, to turn to god to get us through troubling times. My story was to point out that I did, in fact, turn to god during much of my life. I always believed I was getting an answer even if it was one I didn't like or agree with. I always believed that the path I was on was the path I was supposed to be on and that I was becoming a better person, spiritually, as a result. However, who do you turn to when god stops answering? As I pointed out. For people to get better or not die or whatever I trusted god and whatever the outcome of those prayers were always right and it made me and my relationship with god better. This is why, from a religious point of view, the bad times are better. During good times people "forget" about god. During bad times people do the opposite and really get into god like they're "supposed" to. When it comes to the end of your own faith the story changes. In this situation the only answer god can give is "yes" since "no" and "later" mean spiritual suicide. I feel safe in assuming that not one single person who de-converted did so as to test god. I felt that I was being tested by god. I felt that when I begged for faith that it would be given as promised. So god is allowing abuse (or suffering of any sort) as test. Most, if not all xians, accept this as a fact and deal with it. However, if that test results in the loss of your faith then what was the point of the test? God tells us that he won't give us a burden more than we can carry. I carried that burden as long as I could. God broke me. So not only did I have to endure, and fail, god's test but now as a result I no longer have faith (take me very seriously when I tell you that there is absolutely nothing left and there will never be again), I have to live with the pain of the test and I will be condemned to hell. This is not the act of a loving god nor is it in line with the promises made in the bible. This is the reason I get angry with xians that come here and tell me to just accept god (even though it is technically your mandate). If what I've written doesn't explain why that's a horrible thing to say to me then you're not paying attention.

 

So a quick summary of the above. Bad things, like abuse, happen. It sucks and can be hard to get over. If god doesn't exist then it was a crappy luck of the draw and you do your best to move on and survive. However you need to do that although you always hope it will be in a constructive as opposed to a destructive manner although these are relative to the individual (one person might consider it constructive to only drink and not do drugs whereas someone else might see drinking or drugs destructive). If this was somehow a test from god and you pull through faith intact then you are a stronger person for the experience. If you come through without faith then god failed to live up to his promise of giving you faith when you ask and not given you a burden you cannot carry. In addition god adds insult to injury since you have to carry the baggage of the test for the rest of your life and when you die you go to hell. It's a huge betrayal. Then finally xians come here and give us the usual platitudes and the whole "it worked for me so it must be you" spiel.

 

Secondly, I didn't call anyone's feeling irrational.  Being angry over past abuse is healthy to a certain extent.  What I do call irrational is some of the outrageous strawmen that have been thrown up -- the gross mischaracterizations of what I've said.  I don't address them because I agree with the posters -- if I actually believed what they claim I believe I would, in fact, be wrong.

Actually you did. I tell you how. You knew that Becca and Cerise and others were posting from a very emotional place. I willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you were, in your responses, trying to diffuse this very emotionally charged situation. You mistake was not acknowledging, in any significant way, what they were saying. Not just the words but the emotions. You came off as cold and judgemental. If you understood what I said above then you'll easily see that this is the same response that they, and myself, got and still get from other xians, and in a way god himself, when we relate our experiences to them. Did I tell you my story to get you to convert? Not really. If it does then great. Why? Because of what I just said. If you deconvert then there's one less person to condone god's behavior (his behavior in "testing" us and also his behavior in abandoning us despite his many assurances). If you choose to keep your faith then just see all that I am saying (and everyone else) as a lesson from god to teach you sympathy (and more importantly empathy).

 

I'll give you another little example from my own life (which may be sort of offensive but hopefully not too bad). I have a problem with gay people. Why? My xian upbringing should be about enough to answer that question. I really did not like the fact that they flaunted their whole disrespect for god everywhere and then tried to write it off as "god made me this way" or some nonsense instead of simply admitting it was a choice instead of some genetic problem they couldn't control. When my Tourrette's came on around the age of seven I just attributed it to being demon possessed or at the very least being tormented by a demon (I've hit on this before in other threads and I won't go into it again here...I will add that despite how it's written here it was quite traumatic). When I was about 20 I discovered that the problem I'd had since I was seven had a name and it looked to be genetic. Uh oh. If my uncontrollable thing was genetic then maybe, just maybe, the gays weren't lying. I still viewed my Tourrette's and their orientation as a test and they were still failing by not being repentant whereas I got to the point where everytime I had a random thought (usually quite violent or weird) I would say a quick prayer in my head. I just knew those gays weren't doing that. After I deconverted I still didn't really care for the gay "lifestyle" but I really didn't care too much about them being gay anymore. I had enough time since that point where I realized that if I had to accept the possibility of my genetic "defect" then I had to accept theirs. I had to accept that I made no mental choice to prefer women over men. Many of the things I accused them of actively doing to "defy" god were, in a way, like the things I was doing but I never made the "choice" to do them. The opposite was true. I wanted to please god. The last big task I had to do was tell my family, my mom primarily, that I had "lost" my faith. She cried, went into denial and just didn't want to talk to me anymore. My sister-in-law spoke with my mom and we're on better terms now but I can tell she's still extremely upset and is hoping I'm in a "phase" or something. After that I really respect any gay person that "comes out" because I essentially had to do it and it was horrible. I, unlike gays, do not have to "hide" relationships or anything like that so my experience, I imagine, is still less painful. I do sympathize and have a degree of empathy for them now. You can tell, by how I wrote the above, that I still group gays and I still have issues. Maybe they'll go away over time, maybe they won't. I don't know. I do know that I used to say that if I had a gay child I would simply disown them. I don't think that way anymore. I might be incomfortable, upset and all that crap if that were the case but I know that I am now capable of trying to address the issue instead of dismissing. This is yet another lesson I learned and it, from a xian view, only cost me my soul. I'm sure xians can learn this same lesson at a lower price if they want to.

 

I'm not going to defend positions I don't hold.

That is my approach to straw men, carticatures, and fabrications.

 

When posters begin having a conversation with me and not a carticature then I'll begin addressing what they say again.

I've offered no solutions here.

I've discussed a path that worked for me -- a path well known ... that a person can allow a difficulty to consume them or they can grow through it.

I've not once belittled Becca for not knowing how to pull herself up.

I've always described things as a process - a struggle -- and something that takes time.  Anyone here disagree with that assessment?

I never said a person couldn't learn from the good -- but then everyone already knows that.

I've seen both sides to this in this thread. You "misspoke" (for lack of a better word) and they attacked. You withdrew and became defensive. This seemed cold and distant which dimished them in their eyes (I assuming this was not your intent). This resulted in more attacks and so on. A vicious cycle. Now that I look at it though, maybe a valuable one. You've sort of, in a small small way, were the "victim" of abuse. Did you get stronger or retreat? You had the option to leave but most victims don't (at least immediately). You became defensive and withdrew to a safer position thinking that the attacks would stop. They didn't. This is how people are abused often react in similar situations. Oddly enough I kind of feel like god in this scenerio. If I were to suddenly lash out and attack you, simply side with the others without reason or consideration to your view, or just ignore you altogether, would you still feel comfortable reading and replying to my messages or would you write me off as well (and maybe the thread at that point since there was no "safe" place in it anymore...you might even possibly lash out against all of us on the way out). Perhaps you can learn a little empathy from this (at the very least some sympathy).

 

WOW.

I enjoyed reading that -- not in a sick way but in an appreciative way --you were very clear, personal and to the point.  Well done!  As for the lesson -- I used to be able to trace everything G_d was doing which I think is a fundamentalist way of thinking.  I no longer do that -- and while that looks like a cop out the fact is I don't understand nor could I guess why your situation went down the way it did.

 

It doesn't seem uncommon for the people on this board, though.

 

The balance between faith/reason - emotion/evidence is something not entirely clear to me (and an area where I think I need more balance).  In my specific situation when I got too the point you describe I decided to believe anyways -- why I made that choice one way, and you the other way, I have no idea.

I'm glad you can at least admit this. I personally get angry when the attitude that I see from xians is that since we both had some problem (whatever they were) and you came through with faith and I did not that I must have done something wrong to get where I am. The point of my mini-testimony (or whatever you want to call it) was that, to me at least, I not only did everything "right" (to the best of my ability) but I went above and beyond what jesus himself said I would need to do. To then be told that since I did all the "right" things and still ended up where I am must mean that I never believed and only went through the motions is the ultimate insult and extremely offensive to me (and literally enrages me...about the only thing in my entire life that has that effect on me). So as far as this thread goes it comes down to this. When I was xian I believed prayer mattered and it was answered in, basically, the three ways I've mentioned before. When it became crunch time for my, my faith and god the only prayer that ever truly mattered in my entire life returned nothing. Since I know that I will never being going back (trust me the bible supports it and I personally, after tons of study, have no interest in believing a myth anymore) then "maybe later" is not a possible answer. I'm no longer xian so "yes" was not the answer to my prayers of faith. So the possibilities become the answer was "no" meaning god wanted me to fall away for some reason (this makes him a liar and quite evil), there is no god (quite possible), there is no Bible god (very likely to the point of being true) or I was praying to the wrong god(s) (who knows?).

 

I seem to have turned this into an "all about me" kind of thing. Sorry about that.

 

I don't know if anything I've written has actually meant anything to anyone. I've sort of lost track of my overall point myself. I think that since I've been on both sides of this point of view (to some degree) that I might have a little insight to offer to M_G. I don't want to sound condescending (even though this is coming off as "we're good and you're bad") but I do think that once it was apparent that things were exploding emotionally you should have backed off your point and/or offered your story indicating why your approach, at least for you, was superior than what you perceived others were doing (or had done). By not doing so you effectively said to everyone here "Your way was wrong. Period!" It came of as dismissive and arrogant. When I used to do this (and I still do it but I'm more aware of it now) I never think that I am saying the same things that people are telling me they're hearing. I've learned the burden falls back to me to clarify (which is not just repeating what I said or changing the words around but finding another way to communicate my thought) instead of them having to just "understand" better.

 

I would suggest that M_G apologize to those people he (intentionally or not) offended. Do it in a PM if you don't want to do it publicly (at the very least you really do owe Becca an apology). Maybe it will be sincere and maybe it won't. I hope it's sincere. At this point your apology will seem hollow but the gesture is important. Hopefully, if you apologize, your apology will be accepted. I can almost guarantee none of you will be friends but maybe it will help calm things down a bit. Then we can all get back to telling you the truth about your religion and you can go back to denying it.

 

mwc

[mwc]

I invite anyone who has a problem with what I say to contact me via PM for the purposes of clarification.  Sometimes one or two PMs can clear this stuff up rather quickly.  All PMs I receive are kept private.

Great idea. I would suggest one change. There is at least one or two people that you should PM instead of waiting for them to come to you.

 

mwc

[Mad_Gerbil]

Great idea.  I would suggest one change.  There is at least one or two people that you should PM instead of waiting for them to come to you.

 

          mwc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would if I didn't think it would add insult to injury.

[MQTA]

If what I've written doesn't explain why that's a horrible thing to say to me then you're not paying attention.

 

          mwc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just got through reading your entire post after initially eyes glazing glossing over it.

 

I HIGHLY recommend M_G read it, slowly, without glazing over it.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write it, but I get the feeling a lot of people don't read long posts very well, takes Effort.

[Kuroikaze]

Cerise:

 

You've managed to document your ability to read into a text exactly what you need to flame someone -- is what you've documented -- because I can say catagorically that none of those implications are even remotely accurate.

 

Be assured, if I felt you were being totally irrational I'd come out and say it.  If I thought you were some raving lunatic I'd just come out and say it.  I wouldn't have to imply it -- I feel perfectly free to be direct.

 

Fun Exercise: Look through all the posts and find all the quotes where I say things like "I'm speaking in general terms", "I mean as a general rule", or "This is what has worked for me" and you'll see I was constantly going for the general discussion of the topic which is something other than the implied personal attacks you think you see there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think your comming at this in the wrong direction. This is what I think, If someone is offended by something I say, even if the offence is caused because they misread what I said, I appologize, Or at least I try to.

 

If people have misread what you wrote, perhaps you need to appologize for saying things that are too easily misunderstood. I read the quotes that Cerise put up and I can say as an objective observer, that many people would read those same implications in what you say.

 

For what its worth I don't think you are intentionally being a jerk, but I can also see from a lot of your posts that you love the sarcasim. Nothing wrong with that mind you, but sarcasim doesn't traslate very well in text form, and is usually taken as being rude when you are already talking to someone who you are not on friendly terms with.

 

Think about this. If you have said something that hurt someone it is YOUR fault. It doesn't matter if you didn't mean it, or they took it in the wrong way. It is still your fault. So appologize, let them know you didn't mean it....do something.

 

Instead, you come of sounding like you are saying "Thats not what I meant, and if you took it that way its your fault for misunderstanding me" Of couse maybe thats not what you mean to say, but thats the way it sounds to the rest of us.

 

If your misunderstood once, maybe its the other persons fault, but if your misunderstood allmost everytime you post by lots of different people its probably your fault for not chosing your words carefully enough.

 

Just a bit of advise for you, take it or leave it

 

BTW: it was a christian who first told me to appologize for hurting someone even when I didn't mean it. I may have left christianity, but I still follow that advice.

[Mad_Gerbil]

mwc:

 

I read through your post, it was well written.

 

However, it would be a lie for me to apologize for someone else's need to read implications into my posts. The fact is, once I give into that I'll forever be apologizing to people who pull the victim card every time he/she doesn't like the direction of the thread.

 

If I might offer you an example:

 

Let's say I got someone in here who was in Romania in the 80's when Christians were being persecuted by an atheist government. I bring this person in here and you begin a discussion with this person and suddenly, upon finding out you are an atheist, that person pins upon you every wrong they've ever experienced at the hands of the athiests running the Romanian government at that time.

 

While you might be willing to be apologetic the first or second time -- it would get old when threads end up having the same person reading every argument you present and then reading implications of torture, murder, and so on simply because you are an atheist.

 

I've expressed a dozen times that:

1: Rape is wrong

2: People who do that are evil and need to be punished.

3: Our society needs to do more to protect women.

4: That my discussion of life lessons was meant to be general.

5: Having an emotional reaction to rape is normal and expected.

 

Despite constant repetition of those points I've still got people saying stuff like "he thinks rape is a good thing... maybe you should get your girls raped mg!!!"

 

I can appreciate that people hurt, however, I've never raped anyone -- I don't think rape is funny, and I can imagine the damage by such a thing is a huge deal in one's life. That being said, if someone wants to pin the blame and hatred for what someone else did to them on ME that is fine, but I won't apologize for their misattribution of anger and bitterness.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Think about this.  If you have said something that hurt someone it is YOUR fault.  It doesn't matter if you didn't mean it, or they took it in the wrong way.  It is still your fault.  So appologize, let them know you didn't mean it....do something. 

 

I've explained myself several times now.

I've invited those that have a problem with my 'tone' to contact me via PM.

It ends there.

[Kuroikaze]

I've explained myself several times now.

I've invited those that have a problem with my 'tone' to contact me via PM.

It ends there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

as usual you completly misunderstand what I'm saying, your still acting like a jerk.

 

What your statement come off as is like its there job to drag an appolgy out of you. I can't speak for others but if I know that I have hurt someone I appolgize as soon as I can, even if they don't ask.

 

Something my dad always says also occurs to me. He says "appologizing doesn't mean anything if you dont' change your actions. When you say your sorry, you are making a promise to act differently in the future. continuing to act in the same way invalidates the applogy."

 

If you keep saying hurtful things to people, it seems, from our perspective, as if you not really sorry.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I'm done with this topic on the public forum.

As far as I'm concerned, it is closed.

[pug]

Pug, frankly this is why christians disgust me now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You all have this two-faced thing going that is just wrong. One face intones on and on about how humble and grateful we should all be for Jesus's selfless love and God's forgiveness of sin (belly-crawling and grovelling mode). The OTHER face is an excessively pious egoist that actually had the GALL to presume, assume, and opine the will of god whenever clarity and explanation are not directly covered in the book

.

Please re-read what i posted: I did say "speculate"

 

Or if the book is contradicted. The book says prayers shall be answered. We all know prayers are NOT answered. This face of christianity rears it's condescending head, and has the bare ass cheek to essentially dictate the will of god.

AND how do you know the prayers have NOT been answered. Just not answered the way you want it to be answered!

 

Just the idea that you or any other christian has the nerve to believe yourselves even minutely qualified to explain god's will is such a staggering display of ego, anyone who hears you has every right to feel nauseated.

Explain? Mere speculation. IF you would care to read what Han has replied you will know he didn't take it the way you understood it.

[Guest Guest]

If you have said something that hurt someone it is YOUR fault.

 

One of the most fundamental rules of English is to communicate with as much clarity as possible. It pisses me off on the internet how people whinge about "not being understood" when they are obviously not communicating very well.

 

You vaunt your 'directness' - but your words leave any impartial observer to draw other inferences, which suggests you are not being that unambiguous at all.

 

Not asking for your apologies, MG. I've accepted my responsibilities to ensure people are reading what I am trying to convey. What can't you accept yours?

[mwc]

mwc:

 

I read through your post, it was well written.

Thanks. I do my best.

 

However, it would be a lie for me to apologize for someone else's need to read implications into my posts.  The fact is, once I give into that I'll forever be apologizing to people who pull the victim card every time he/she doesn't like the direction of the thread.

Understood. An empty apology is best not given. If you feel it would be a lie definately don't apologize. I value honesty above pretty much everything so if that's how you feel then that's how you feel. I also see your point of view about people pulling the victim card on you. I personally disagree with on this one...at least in this case. There were really only a couple of people that were hurt by what you said. This is why I recommend that you PM them, instead of waiting for them to come to you, and apologize privately. This way you keep this away from public view so that you gesture won't be used against you in the future.

 

[Example snipped for space]

I agree with your example in spirit but it would really only apply if I, or other atheists (even though I'm agnostic I'm sure your example wasn't to imply anything), were to go to a board full of ex-Romanians and entered into a forum to debate them on various topics. While debating I found that a few (probably more but a few are really obviously quite upset with something I said on a particular topic) and I kept on ignoring their specific troubles while expressing my view in generalities. I would be afraid that if I were to apologize it would weaken my position, not just on that particular topic, but from that point on in all debates. I personally would either drop out of that discussion or apologize in private and still drop out. I know this sounds like I'm just rewording your example to fit what has happened here but the only reason I have done so is that, if you look at what I've already said (and I appreciate that you seem to have done so), I already see that as the proper course of action in such a difficult situation. In case you're wondering, you don't owe me any apology. I will say again that you might want to, at least consider, apologizing or even just a kind PM, to Becca (since I used her as my example before I am sorry if I misrepresented her in any way). I'm pretty sure she would not throw an olive branch type PM back in your face in public.

 

I've expressed a dozen times that:

1: Rape is wrong

2: People who do that are evil and need to be punished.

3: Our society needs to do more to protect women.

4: That my discussion of life lessons was meant to be general.

5: Having an emotional reaction to rape is normal and expected.

 

Despite constant repetition of those points I've still got people saying stuff like "he thinks rape is a good thing... maybe you should get your girls raped mg!!!"

I don't think anyone seriously thought you condoned rape. I would imagine that you abhor it as much as we all do. They did catch you in a logic problem and called you on it. The idea was if your daughters were raped what lesson would you tell them to take away from it? I'm not a father (read my old messages if you want to know why) but this would be an extremely painful, and inconsiderate, thing to say to them as they lie in the ER. Some of the folks here have very raw emotions (me too but for some reason I'm not as upset with you as I would normally be in this same conversation) about our past related to lots of things but primarily religion (seeing how that's what this board is really about and not other support). So the idea was if your daughters were raped would you respond in the same way you've responded to some of those here?

 

I can appreciate that people hurt, however, I've never raped anyone -- I don't think rape is funny, and I can imagine the damage by such a thing is a huge deal in one's life.  That being said, if someone wants to pin the blame and hatred for what someone else did to them on ME that is fine, but I won't apologize for their misattribution of anger and bitterness.

Personally, rape gets my blood boiling. I can't stand the thought of it. That's not really the point though. I also don't think that anyone is accusing you for what someone else did (although, to get my shot a xianity in here, this is exactly what your god does when condemning us for Adam and Eve). You're being accused of pouring salt in the wounds and not stopping once you were made aware that you were on thin ice. I could be wrong but I don't think anyone expects you to take the blame for anything more than that. I know that during debates people get upset for all sorts of things but this particular time it just seemed to go further than usual (on all sides).

 

Oh well, I'm not going to keep harping on this point. I think you understand my view on the entire issue. I hope that you do, at least, try the PM thing. I really do think the gesture would make a difference and not weaken your public persona.

 

mwc

[mwc]

I just got through reading your entire post after initially eyes glazing glossing over it. 

 

I HIGHLY recommend M_G read it, slowly, without glazing over it.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write it, but I get the feeling a lot of people don't read long posts very well, takes Effort.

Yeah, I do tend to run on. I just like to be as clear as possible if I think my point is important and/or what I'm saying can be taken the wrong way.

 

I appreciate your sentiment (and everyone elses). I just sort of blow my messages out of the top of my head and never know if I'm really ever making a point.

 

mwc