Fear

[Phanta]

I am incredibly frightened of being homeless and destitute. This has increased since I lost my job last year. I am presently working but in constant fear of being fired.

 

Boy, you've had a horrible struggle. Is this job temporary?

[Galien]

Fair enough. My personal interpretation at this point is that Christianity offers "to know" and to "be known". I don't have any quarrels with your lack of proof perspective.

 

Really, because I find Christians have more masks than non-christians. They spend a lot of time talking about who they are, but actually letting you get close enough to know who they really are? Not in my experience. I'm not sure most of them even know themselves. Seems to me like they love you if you spout the right bullshit but ignore you pretty damn quickly if you don't.

 

Christianity in the sense of a relationship "to know" Christ and "be known" by Christ. I agree with you on your statement. I know a whole churchload of folks, but don't really known are am known but a very few......and most are not even Christian....so yeah.

 

But what does that really even mean End? I thought that I knew christ and that he knew me, for 36 years. I was even dumb enough to believe he actually cared. All those years of experience have shown me is that if god is there, he doesn't give a shit. If one is a christian, and therefore dedicated to honesty and truth, one cannot ignore the total lack of evidence forever, surely? How much more suffering do I have to watch? All the tired christian explanations for everything, are no explanation at all.

 

Not trying to deflect Gal, but what lack of evidence......insincere Christians or lack of God proof, or are you saying insincere Christians ARE lack of God proof?

 

How long have you got End? I always believed that as a person became more of christ he became less of himself, became more christ minded, more led by the spirit of god. In short I really believed there was something supernatural going on. Over time what I saw, was not that christians became less of themselves, but that they actually became more. More egotistical, more judgemental, more nasty, more likely to condemn others that don't believe in exactly the same way that they and their church do. More likely to be dismissive of the pain of others, more likely to give superficial pat christian answers instead of really care to the point where they needed to actually DO something instead of just saying I will pray for you. This was not what I expected at all. The leaders are worst, and the rest just follow their bad example.

 

There is an alarming lack of humility among christians of all types. I read the bible as a child, but I have always been good at interpreting text. Learn from me because I am gentle and humble in heart does not mean be an egotistical cunt who lords it over everyone he can find, uses the bible to rip people off financially and manipulate them spirituallty. It does not mean bend, stretch and twist the truth. It does not mean bask in the adulation of your congregation because you are shit hot and you have all your little lackeys running around after you because you are oh so important now.

 

Then we have the non existent answers to prayer. Luckily I can still only count on one hand those I know who have taken their own lives because the god who loves us allows them to live with mental illness they cannot take, even though the bible tells us god will not give us any more than we can take. That there is some interesting bullshit for starters. So is it a lie?

 

I have seem maybe 20 to 30 christians die of all kinds of cancer, despite the prayers of many. Where is their god? I am tired of all the standard christian anwers, god can see the big picture, people are not perfect blah blah blah.

 

If most christians cannot get even basic honesty and humility right, and god apparently does nothing, what is the point?

[Phanta]

Then we have the non existent answers to prayer. Luckily I can still only count on one hand those I know who have taken their own lives because the god who loves us allows them to live with mental illness they cannot take, even though the bible tells us god will not give us any more than we can take. That there is some interesting bullshit for starters. So is it a lie?

 

Wow. I think the answer is that, for some, believing that is helpful. If I don't fear the load is too great, then I don't need to carry the fear on top of the actual load, and the load is actually lighter. I am braver.

 

I play a similar trick on my brain when I feel overwhelmed. It is this thought: "I chose this burden before I was born." If you can put my lack of cognitive dissonance around not believing in reincarnation or pre-being aside.... I send myself a message that I chose my burdens before I was born, and, so, everything is exactly as it should be...I knew what I was doing when I picked these burdens. It's all manageable. It's under control.

 

And then it is actually more under control. I am more under control. In fact, I think the thing that keeps this thought strong in the face of my stark lack of belief in reincarnation or pre-being or whatever is that it has been an incredibly helpful thought to trust in.

 

This is the same thing when it is helpful, I think. Of course, since it isn't true, even the deepest belief in it won't work for everyone. But it does have a similar effect on some, I reckon.

[Galien]

Sadly for me Phanta I am tethered to hard, cold reality. Not capable of magical thinking, distraction or pretending that things are anything other than exactly what they are. When the emporer is naked, he is NAKED. Guess that is why I made such a shitty christian.

[Antlerman]

I am incredibly frightened of being homeless and destitute. This has increased since I lost my job last year. I am presently working but in constant fear of being fired.

 

Yeah, I know the feeling. In reality, worst case scenario is that I'd probably end up living with friends or relatives. But that would still be mighty unpleasant, and there's nothing fun about being poor.

 

This is an interesting thread, and I enjoy Antlerman's perspective. It rings true, and I think I've managed to 'let go' in several areas of my life. But how can you completely 'let go' when reality is just waiting to bite you in the ass?

Reality? Reality is perception, interpretation, perspective. You have more control over this than you imagine. What do you tell yourself is truth?

 

 

I have to go to bed. Busy week. This topic is a good one. Thanks End. I'll add as a can...

[RankStranger]

I am incredibly frightened of being homeless and destitute. This has increased since I lost my job last year. I am presently working but in constant fear of being fired.

 

Yeah, I know the feeling. In reality, worst case scenario is that I'd probably end up living with friends or relatives. But that would still be mighty unpleasant, and there's nothing fun about being poor.

 

This is an interesting thread, and I enjoy Antlerman's perspective. It rings true, and I think I've managed to 'let go' in several areas of my life. But how can you completely 'let go' when reality is just waiting to bite you in the ass?

Reality? Reality is perception, interpretation, perspective. You have more control over this than you imagine. What do you tell yourself is truth?

 

 

I have to go to bed. Busy week. This topic is a good one. Thanks End. I'll add as a can...

 

Right. From my perspective, interpretation, and perception, money doesn't buy happiness. But a LACK of money can sure as hell cause a lot of UNhappiness.

 

I know people who are sitting in jail right now simply for the crime of being poor- in other words, if they had money- they wouldn't be in jail for that same crime. I know people who are chronically unemployed/underemployed, with little hope for the future. Now neither of these circumstances are likely to kill a person- and I suppose if you're a Zen-Master, you might even manage to be happy or content or something under such circumstances. But I wouldn't, and I'm not convinced that I SHOULD be. In MY world and life circumstances, both of these situations are very real possibilities. I'm pretty damn smart and hard-working, so odds are I can avoid them. But it's a simple fact that a single catastrophic event (or two) could easily remove what little financial, social, and legal security that I have.

 

From my perspective, this is just a fact. 'Reality' if you will. I suppose that how I FEEL about these (potential) circumstances could be affected by perception, interpretation, and perspective. I mean, I AM better off than a majority of the world's population. But that wouldn't be much comfort sitting in a jail cell.

 

I'm not posting this just to be argumentative. I'm interested in other ways to look at this... not sure how to approach it though. Remember- I AM just a christian without God.

[Margee]

I am incredibly frightened of being homeless and destitute. This has increased since I lost my job last year. I am presently working but in constant fear of being fired.

 

Yeah, I know the feeling. In reality, worst case scenario is that I'd probably end up living with friends or relatives. But that would still be mighty unpleasant, and there's nothing fun about being poor.

 

This is an interesting thread, and I enjoy Antlerman's perspective. It rings true, and I think I've managed to 'let go' in several areas of my life. But how can you completely 'let go' when reality is just waiting to bite you in the ass?

Reality? Reality is perception, interpretation, perspective. You have more control over this than you imagine. What do you tell yourself is truth?

 

 

I have to go to bed. Busy week. This topic is a good one. Thanks End. I'll add as a can...

 

Right. From my perspective, interpretation, and perception, money doesn't buy happiness. But a LACK of money can sure as hell cause a lot of UNhappiness.

 

I know people who are sitting in jail right now simply for the crime of being poor- in other words, if they had money- they wouldn't be in jail for that same crime. I know people who are chronically unemployed/underemployed, with little hope for the future. Now neither of these circumstances are likely to kill a person- and I suppose if you're a Zen-Master, you might even manage to be happy or content or something under such circumstances. But I wouldn't, and I'm not convinced that I SHOULD be. In MY world and life circumstances, both of these situations are very real possibilities. I'm pretty damn smart and hard-working, so odds are I can avoid them. But it's a simple fact that a single catastrophic event (or two) could easily remove what little financial, social, and legal security that I have.

 

From my perspective, this is just a fact. 'Reality' if you will. I suppose that how I FEEL about these (potential) circumstances could be affected by perception, interpretation, and perspective. I mean, I AM better off than a majority of the world's population. But that wouldn't be much comfort sitting in a jail cell.

 

I'm not posting this just to be argumentative. I'm interested in other ways to look at this... not sure how to approach it though. Remember- I AM just a christian without God.

 

Rank, Deva - these are some really good points you bring up.I understand all the fears around money.

 

I, myself am so god damned tired of working for money to pay the bills. I feel as if I'm trapped in a place I can never get out of. Actually - I am!

 

When they ask me :''Margee - When are you retireing?'' - I tell then I have a plan called 'Freedom 85'.

 

Unfortunately, I screwed up financially along the way - didn't do the right things with my money -some people set me back, leaving me to start on my own again.

I have to cut hair till the day I die - Fuck, I get depressed just thinking about it!

[Deva]

I am incredibly frightened of being homeless and destitute. This has increased since I lost my job last year. I am presently working but in constant fear of being fired.

 

Boy, you've had a horrible struggle. Is this job temporary?

 

Its not supposed to be temporary, but like all jobs in this state you can be fired for literally anything. They decide they suddenly don't like your face one day-- they can say your work is unsatisfactory, trump something up, or just say "its not working out" and show you the door. You never know the real reason. I have had that happen before after working at a different firm once. I worked there for over 10 months, then myself and virtually everyone else was fired for one reason or another (I found out later), and then the firm broke up. I still have to explain what happened there even today on any interview although it was 10 years ago.

 

So yes, I am working but I never know. Last year was a nightmare. 7 months of scraping to find anything and my parents sending me money. I had terrible experiences in two offices - one they fired me after two weeks saying I couldn't learn the job and the other one this crazy woman who worked there made my life hell - then they let me go from there after three days because it was obvious we couldn't get along.

 

I have never had any kind of job security in over 20 years and it is taking its toll on me psychologically. Legal assistant work has a stress factor even when things are going "well." The older you get, the tougher things are - I don't like to think of the future too much.

 

Prison actually seems not so bad. The company isn't good but at least you are assured of getting fed.

[Phanta]

Sadly for me Phanta I am tethered to hard, cold reality. Not capable of magical thinking, distraction or pretending that things are anything other than exactly what they are. When the emporer is naked, he is NAKED. Guess that is why I made such a shitty christian.

 

My one happy brain glitch of aside, I do relate most to this. It sucks when you can't believe and are surrounded by a culture of it.

[Phanta]

I am incredibly frightened of being homeless and destitute. This has increased since I lost my job last year. I am presently working but in constant fear of being fired.

 

Boy, you've had a horrible struggle. Is this job temporary?

 

Its not supposed to be temporary, but like all jobs in this state you can be fired for literally anything. They decide they suddenly don't like your face one day-- they can say your work is unsatisfactory, trump something up, or just say "its not working out" and show you the door. You never know the real reason. I have had that happen before after working at a different firm once. I worked there for over 10 months, then myself and virtually everyone else was fired for one reason or another (I found out later), and then the firm broke up. I still have to explain what happened there even today on any interview although it was 10 years ago.

 

So yes, I am working but I never know. Last year was a nightmare. 7 months of scraping to find anything and my parents sending me money. I had terrible experiences in two offices - one they fired me after two weeks saying I couldn't learn the job and the other one this crazy woman who worked there made my life hell - then they let me go from there after three days because it was obvious we couldn't get along.

 

I have never had any kind of job security in over 20 years and it is taking its toll on me psychologically. Legal assistant work has a stress factor even when things are going "well." The older you get, the tougher things are - I don't like to think of the future too much.

 

Prison actually seems not so bad. The company isn't good but at least you are assured of getting fed.

 

Your situation is frought with insecurity. Wow, Deva.

 

Do you have the option to collect unemployment when you are let go?

[Deva]

Your situation is frought with insecurity. Wow, Deva.

 

Do you have the option to collect unemployment when you are let go?

 

Thanks for reading it Phanta. I was able to collect last year but then after a few months they opened an investigation on me and cut me off. Its complicated and I don't want to derail the thread. Yes, I was entitled to it, but its not enough to live on.

[Phanta]

Your situation is frought with insecurity. Wow, Deva.

 

Do you have the option to collect unemployment when you are let go?

 

Thanks for reading it Phanta. I was able to collect last year but then after a few months they opened an investigation on me and cut me off. Its complicated and I don't want to derail the thread. Yes, I was entitled to it, but its not enough to live on.

 

I'm sorry you have to live with this basic fear, Deva. That sucks.

[Margee]

Your situation is frought with insecurity. Wow, Deva.

 

Do you have the option to collect unemployment when you are let go?

 

Thanks for reading it Phanta. I was able to collect last year but then after a few months they opened an investigation on me and cut me off. Its complicated and I don't want to derail the thread. Yes, I was entitled to it, but its not enough to live on.

 

I'm sorry you have to live with this basic fear, Deva. That sucks.

 

Me too Deva - It's so awful to live with insecurity. I once had a whole house of 'loser' boarders to make it work for me. No wonder we get tired of the struggle. I might consider going to prison with you! Let's go get into some trouble today........................

[Guest end3]

Was thinking about this last night.....

 

I don't know that I am capable of just letting things be because of the seemingly real dichotomy that we live in. In other words, it appears we are fearful of basically one half of the dichotomy.....the bad half.

 

Does freedom come with being able to accept the bad half? Is this suffering?

[Phanta]

Was thinking about this last night.....

 

I don't know that I am capable of just letting things be because of the seemingly real dichotomy that we live in. In other words, it appears we are fearful of basically one half of the dichotomy.....the bad half.

 

Does freedom come with being able to accept the bad half? Is this suffering?

 

I think so. Pain does not mean suffering. When we resist inevitable pain, this is the beginning of suffering.

[Antlerman]

Right. From my perspective, interpretation, and perception, money doesn't buy happiness. But a LACK of money can sure as hell cause a lot of UNhappiness.

 

I know people who are sitting in jail right now simply for the crime of being poor- in other words, if they had money- they wouldn't be in jail for that same crime.

What area do you live in that they jail people for being poor? It says on your profile you're from "Kansatan", which as from what I can tell is a way to say in Turkish, "From Kansas". Turkmu? Sorry for my ignorance as to that term.

 

Even so, I do recognize that physical needs have to be met in order for a certain quality of life that affords us the luxury of such pursuits that have all gone into defining our humanity; such as education, knowledge, culture, art, philosophy, and religion. In many regards it's very true to say that "God" owes his existence to technology. In another true sense of the word, "humanity" in the sense of the word we use it today, in fact literally came into existence roughly 10,000 years ago due to this very thing: the Plow. We now had division of labor, creation of the sexes, creation of time, the small awakening of man from his subconscious slumber, and the creation of systems of language and eventually religion. There are a lot of truths buried within our early myths.

 

All that to say that while it is true that anything can upset the structures of your world, any of a million possibilities, from that car accident you mention, a stroke, a stray bullet from a gansta, a plague, an earthquake, a fire, a mental breakdown, war, or poverty, etc., living in the fear of these things is in fact living in non-reality. You experience non-reality as reality through your mind controlling you. Yes, my life could suddenly become for one of a million possibilities, less than what I have now. Why then live with anxiety about it now?

 

You might argue that it motivates you to take measures to ensure a preferred state of physical existence, one where you have economic stability. While doing what you can to ensure that is in fact reasonable and prudent, experiencing fear is not. It is not that you don't care, it is that you are not anxious. You want to be able to use the full resources of your facilities for survival, your mind, your body, your creativity, your positive strengths that drive all that within you, then why feed all of it as a whole - body, mind, and spirit - poison? A poison concocted in the laboratories of our imagination darkened by anxiety into a black fear? We can just as easily imagine a solution, rather than our demise. Why do we go there instead?

 

The answer to that is what I suggested in my first post in this thread.

 

 

I know people who are chronically unemployed/underemployed, with little hope for the future. Now neither of these circumstances are likely to kill a person- and I suppose if you're a Zen-Master, you might even manage to be happy or content or something under such circumstances. But I wouldn't, and I'm not convinced that I SHOULD be.

You imagine that if you were in such circumstances how that would affect you, you fear the loss of 'you' by projecting you into their worlds. Yes, it would affect you, just as having money affects you. But who are "you"? Just as every cell in my body is not the same as when I was 20, and I have undergone many changes in my life; economically, mentally, physically, environmentally, relationally, etc, I am always here. Focus there. Find yourself, find your freedom.

 

In MY world and life circumstances, both of these situations are very real possibilities. I'm pretty damn smart and hard-working, so odds are I can avoid them. But it's a simple fact that a single catastrophic event (or two) could easily remove what little financial, social, and legal security that I have.

And then "you" would be in a new situation to discover yourself within, just as you have from the day you awoke from the womb into the world.

 

From my perspective, this is just a fact. 'Reality' if you will.

If it hasn't happened, it's not reality outside us. Only if we experience it through fear, then the imagined moves into the present, and can very, very well create itself into our reality in the physical world. My dear old dad once said to me in my anxious youth, "We create our own environment". That is very true. Some things are beyond our control, the earthquake, the economy, etc, but living with fear we can control. We can influence the state of our world through the power of our thoughts, moved into action or non-action. As I said, we have more control than we imagine, but not absolute power. Nothing does.

 

I'm not posting this just to be argumentative. I'm interested in other ways to look at this... not sure how to approach it though. Remember- I AM just a christian without God.

Yes, I remember that. We all have that cross to bear. But I suppose you could say metaphorically, through it we can find salvation. How else do we grow without these inherited burdens woven into our cultural psyche to overcome?

[Guest end3]

All that to say that while it is true that anything can upset the structures of your world, any of a million possibilities, from that car accident you mention, a stroke, a stray bullet from a gansta, a plague, an earthquake, a fire, a mental breakdown, war, or poverty, etc., living in the fear of these things is in fact living in non-reality. You experience non-reality as reality through your mind controlling you. Yes, my life could suddenly become for one of a million possibilities, less than what I have now. Why then live with anxiety about it now?

 

You might argue that it motivates you to take measures to ensure a preferred state of physical existence, one where you have economic stability. While doing what you can to ensure that is in fact reasonable and prudent, experiencing fear is not. It is not that you don't care, it is that you are not anxious. You want to be able to use the full resources of your facilities for survival, your mind, your body, your creativity, your positive strengths that drive all that within you, then why feed all of it as a whole - body, mind, and spirit - poison? A poison concocted in the laboratories of our imagination darkened by anxiety into a black fear? We can just as easily imagine a solution, rather than our demise. Why do we go there instead?

 

So do we train ourselves to live on the non-fearful side of things? Why is it not reasonable to share a same amount of "prudent fear" with an equal amount of "joy/happiness". I think we find ourselves constantly battling to manifest the positive......the Boy Scout motto comes to mind. We wrap our pipes to keep them from freezing, we go to work, we save money, we diet, we on and on.... We go to church, work on our personalities, rather than exist status quo. We relish maturity vs. immaturity. And I think this is consistant throughout society, from the undeducated to the educated.

 

I don't guess I understand....perhaps if you label it fear, or if fear has it's own definition outside of planning.....maybe a runaway of rational thought.

 

I just don't see us being free as being able to walk acknowledging all that is, as is. We don't do that. To add to that, I don't know that I have a good grasp on the mechanism(s) of survival/fear/needs/wants, whatever.

[oddbird1963]

Right. From my perspective, interpretation, and perception, money doesn't buy happiness. But a LACK of money can sure as hell cause a lot of UNhappiness.

 

I know people who are sitting in jail right now simply for the crime of being poor- in other words, if they had money- they wouldn't be in jail for that same crime.

What area do you live in that they jail people for being poor?

Surely you understand the position that if a poor man is accused of a crime, he is less likely to "get off" or get a lesser sentence or fine in this country than a rich man accused of the same crime? Then there is the area of civil law. Even though you may be in the right in a lawsuit, if you don't have the money to pay lawyers and court fees, you might have to settle or just "bend over and take it" simply because you don't have the $$ to prove your case.

 

The deck is stacked against the poor and the poor who have to experience homelessness and injustice take a shellacking. We have an incredible number of families that have become homeless in this country since the economy tanked. I'm not sure how one can humanly tell them to stop experiencing fear. Nor do I think one can compassionately tell them that if they just looked at things the "right way" they would save themselves the unnecessary burden of experiencing fear.

 

If you contend that this is not true. If you contend that the poor have just as much chance of living fear-free, content lives, then what information can you provide to support this?

 

You make some good points, but I don't think is serves anyone well to gloss over the plight of the poor and disenfranchised just to rest cozy in one's worldview.

[Antlerman]

All that to say that while it is true that anything can upset the structures of your world, any of a million possibilities, from that car accident you mention, a stroke, a stray bullet from a gansta, a plague, an earthquake, a fire, a mental breakdown, war, or poverty, etc., living in the fear of these things is in fact living in non-reality. You experience non-reality as reality through your mind controlling you. Yes, my life could suddenly become for one of a million possibilities, less than what I have now. Why then live with anxiety about it now?

 

You might argue that it motivates you to take measures to ensure a preferred state of physical existence, one where you have economic stability. While doing what you can to ensure that is in fact reasonable and prudent, experiencing fear is not. It is not that you don't care, it is that you are not anxious. You want to be able to use the full resources of your facilities for survival, your mind, your body, your creativity, your positive strengths that drive all that within you, then why feed all of it as a whole - body, mind, and spirit - poison? A poison concocted in the laboratories of our imagination darkened by anxiety into a black fear? We can just as easily imagine a solution, rather than our demise. Why do we go there instead?

 

So do we train ourselves to live on the non-fearful side of things? Why is it not reasonable to share a same amount of "prudent fear" with an equal amount of "joy/happiness". I think we find ourselves constantly battling to manifest the positive......the Boy Scout motto comes to mind. We wrap our pipes to keep them from freezing, we go to work, we save money, we diet, we on and on.... We go to church, work on our personalities, rather than exist status quo. We relish maturity vs. immaturity. And I think this is consistent throughout society, from the undeducated to the educated.

 

I don't guess I understand....perhaps if you label it fear, or if fear has it's own definition outside of planning.....maybe a runaway of rational thought.

 

I just don't see us being free as being able to walk acknowledging all that is, as is. We don't do that. To add to that, I don't know that I have a good grasp on the mechanism(s) of survival/fear/needs/wants, whatever.

As human beings we function on many levels. We share with all lifeforms survival instincts towards self-preservation, and species preservation. Any animal in the forest will be alert to threats to its survival, and we are no different than that on that level. Our senses may be somewhat dulled through life in civilized societies, not having to be acutely mindful of all the subtle changes in our environment that signal an approaching tiger or whatnot, but we do in fact have that "lizard brain" that has been incorporated into our higher functioning protomammalian and neocortex layers of our higher functioning brain.

 

But I make a distinction between impulse/instinct and higher-level reasoning. That world of symbols that we inherited from animals that use them to hunt prey for instance (the image of a rabbit held in the mind of a fox as it runs down the fence line to get to his prey, recalling the rabbit even though it is no longer physically visible), is exploded into symbolic realities in the minds of humans, imagining themselves into future time, years, decades, and millienia for instance; imagages of themselves as "selves", ego identites, values, systems of culture, religions, sciences, etc. We live in symbolic realities. Add to this these mental states are emergent levels built on the biological, and as such are affected by chemistry, physical environments, which in turn are fed back upon by the affected mental states, etc.

 

Now we come to fear. Fear on this level, the level of mental and symbolic reality, is very different than direct threats on the level of instinctual survival. We create realities that we infuse with meaning and value and important and significance, and emotional attachments. Then we imagine threats to these and then fear from anxiety over these imaginations floods that world, our worlds we created are threatened and we will be lost!, which then in turn affects the physical world: our bodies become ill, our actions altered or frozen, we become depressed, guilt-ridden, etc. None of these are physical realities, but are mental realities that can and do manifest themselves objectively. Do we have control of these? Yes. Absolute control? Not entirely, but certainly we are not deterministically programmed to be what we are or can become. Our brains may become diseased and we loose higher functioning, just as the body may become paralyzed and non-functional.

 

The symbolic world we create, society and culture through the creation of language creates a perspective and resulting experience and state of 'reality' for us. Through the gain of larger or greater perspective, that reality and the experience of it changes into something more, or better if you will. But fear on this level, in the mental sphere, is to use a metaphor, an enemy. It is taking biological "fear", that instinct to survival, and misapplying it. Yes, we need to plan ahead, be prudent, but anxiety and fear is a dysfunction. Do you live with fear "Oh god!, I'm not to have enough food for the trip up North," and then go and buy groceries so you don't? Or do you simply realize that you will have a need you should plan ahead for and do so without the fear and anxiety and states panic? Those states accomplish nothing and are based on something entirely other than reality. It is a fear of a loss of structural cohesion blown into states of anxiety and panic.

 

We are not our structures.

 

I'll leave it here as I really need to focus on something else at the moment...

[Antlerman]

Right. From my perspective, interpretation, and perception, money doesn't buy happiness. But a LACK of money can sure as hell cause a lot of UNhappiness.

 

I know people who are sitting in jail right now simply for the crime of being poor- in other words, if they had money- they wouldn't be in jail for that same crime.

What area do you live in that they jail people for being poor?

Surely you understand the position that if a poor man is accused of a crime, he is less likely to "get off" or get a lesser sentence or fine in this country than a rich man accused of the same crime?

Oh yes, I understand the socio-economic disadvantages in the present system. I was responding to his statement they are simply in jail for the crime of being poor, that if you are suddenly poor you get put in jail. I was being very literal with his words.

 

I'm not sure how one can humanly tell them to stop experiencing fear. Nor do I think one can compassionately tell them that if they just looked at things the "right way" they would save themselves the unnecessary burden of experiencing fear.

Again, I think I gave some examples in my last response being fearful of threats to ones immediate safety, (which being in a gun-infested neighborhood afraid to walk outside at night would qualify as well), and being afraid of loosing possession, status, relationships, economic security, etc. These are not present realities. Yes, I think someone falling victim to injustice due to economic disadvantage is cause for concern, but I think my point still is valid even in these circumstances. To live in a state of fear is to be its victim before anything has actually happened.

 

I recognize as I've said before that social-situations in fact do have an impact on our mental and emotional well-being. Living with oppression is a difficult place to nurture the fullness of life in human potential. Every effort should be made to lift that to allow access to it. At the same time, we have to recognize the difference between oppression and repression. Oppression is what others do to you, repression is what we do to ourselves.

 

I'm simply saying, what is within you to take power over to do so, and living in a state of fear can and often does have to do with our perception. Hence we fear losing what we seek to posses, and what we seek to possess is to hold onto what we imagine defines our existence. This is very different from the immediate threat of our safety or physical freedom.

 

If you contend that this is not true. If you contend that the poor have just as much chance of living fear-free, content lives, then what information can you provide to support this?

I would say, ironically, that the more we possess, the more we fear loosing. Ponder that. The poor have less to loose, in this sense. The wealthy man has the world to loose, since it's where he has defined his whole reality - in his greedy mountain of immortality symbols: $$$ "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...."

 

You see? The more we build these projects to symbolize our immortality, the greater the fear of the loss of them becomes. They are symbols of power, but not power itself. They still die and rot. And hence wars are waged against others to protect these symbols of imagined power and immortality. We sacrifice others to protect these symbols. We let them die for us, instead of us dying. Only in the release of them, freedom can be found. If we are not tied to them, then what does define us? And can that be lost?

 

Yes, our physical freedom is cause for response in an act of survival. But there is a difference in this 'fear' and those we imagine define us symbolically. It's an important distinction to make as to not conflate all of it into one and the same thing which it's not. The man with an ulcer over worry for preserving his empire as king, is very different that the rodent on the forest floor fearing for its life from a pursuing predator about to eat it, or the army of a government about to enslave a people.

[Galien]

Was thinking about this last night.....

 

I don't know that I am capable of just letting things be because of the seemingly real dichotomy that we live in. In other words, it appears we are fearful of basically one half of the dichotomy.....the bad half.

 

Does freedom come with being able to accept the bad half? Is this suffering?

 

 

Der End. Whatever happened to perfect love casts out fear? I really don't understand why people spend so much time trying to avoid stuff. Man up, learn to deal with. Very liberating.

[Guest end3]

Was thinking about this last night.....

 

I don't know that I am capable of just letting things be because of the seemingly real dichotomy that we live in. In other words, it appears we are fearful of basically one half of the dichotomy.....the bad half.

 

Does freedom come with being able to accept the bad half? Is this suffering?

 

 

Der End. Whatever happened to perfect love casts out fear? I really don't understand why people spend so much time trying to avoid stuff. Man up, learn to deal with. Very liberating.

 

Oh crud....sorry, I just remembered I didn't take time to look at your last post Gal......it was not intentional. Regarding this one, a few people here have mentioned the unknown as causing fear. The Bible talks about Jesus' mission was for us to know him as he knows the Father. So in a way, if perfect love is known, aka Jesus, then I yes, I believe the statement. It is my experience as well.

 

I will go back and read your last post....sorry.

[Galien]

So do we train ourselves to live on the non-fearful side of things? Why is it not reasonable to share a same amount of "prudent fear" with an equal amount of "joy/happiness". I think we find ourselves constantly battling to manifest the positive......the Boy Scout motto comes to mind. We wrap our pipes to keep them from freezing, we go to work, we save money, we diet, we on and on.... We go to church, work on our personalities, rather than exist status quo. We relish maturity vs. immaturity. And I think this is consistant throughout society, from the undeducated to the educated.

 

I don't guess I understand....perhaps if you label it fear, or if fear has it's own definition outside of planning.....maybe a runaway of rational thought.

 

I just don't see us being free as being able to walk acknowledging all that is, as is. We don't do that. To add to that, I don't know that I have a good grasp on the mechanism(s) of survival/fear/needs/wants, whatever.

 

How can you not acknowledge everthing that is, as is? I always thought that the essence of being a christian was EXACTLY that. Raw truth. That is why I have so much trouble living in this world, because I am willing to acknowldege what is there, warts and all and a lot of people aren't. I truly do not understand this constant quest for escape from the real. Surely maturity requires a logical assessment of a situation looking at all the possible contingencies without freaking out, assuming the worst and letting your emotions run riot. Why is this so hard?

[Guest end3]

How long have you got End? I always believed that as a person became more of christ he became less of himself, became more christ minded, more led by the spirit of god. In short I really believed there was something supernatural going on. Over time what I saw, was not that christians became less of themselves, but that they actually became more. More egotistical, more judgemental, more nasty, more likely to condemn others that don't believe in exactly the same way that they and their church do. More likely to be dismissive of the pain of others, more likely to give superficial pat christian answers instead of really care to the point where they needed to actually DO something instead of just saying I will pray for you. This was not what I expected at all. The leaders are worst, and the rest just follow their bad example.

 

I have considered this Gal....that we don't really change who we are on a core level, but are potentially changed by environment/peer pressure/necessity. That is a distinct possibility. My personal experience has been one of many answers not solely related to reading the Bible, but "answers" to my prayers/needs. I don't know that the Christian journey is anything other than a struggle most days. I have at times felt like I could not have become the person I am without Christianity. But, I do see your point.

 

There is an alarming lack of humility among christians of all types. I read the bible as a child, but I have always been good at interpreting text. Learn from me because I am gentle and humble in heart does not mean be an egotistical cunt who lords it over everyone he can find, uses the bible to rip people off financially and manipulate them spirituallty. It does not mean bend, stretch and twist the truth. It does not mean bask in the adulation of your congregation because you are shit hot and you have all your little lackeys running around after you because you are oh so important now.

 

As was mentioned before, I think our expectations for others if we help them can be completely amiss. I have met some genuinely good people in church vs. the people you describe.

 

Then we have the non existent answers to prayer. Luckily I can still only count on one hand those I know who have taken their own lives because the god who loves us allows them to live with mental illness they cannot take, even though the bible tells us god will not give us any more than we can take. That there is some interesting bullshit for starters. So is it a lie?

 

I have seem maybe 20 to 30 christians die of all kinds of cancer, despite the prayers of many. Where is their god? I am tired of all the standard christian anwers, god can see the big picture, people are not perfect blah blah blah.

 

Who can say Gal? It's conjecture. FWIW, I think we somehow have free will, yet the whole thing is exactly like God sets. I believe our experience is for our growth to perfection....which involves things we want to happen and things we don't. I have had a distinct experience where I have thought that I had to have endured everthing that I had endured for the sole purpose of a new point in God.

Just my own take of course.

 

If most christians cannot get even basic honesty and humility right, and god apparently does nothing, what is the point?

 

What's the point? I would think a faithful adherence to practicing being a good human...whether that is only by obdience at times or possibly who we become over time. Obviously in your opinion it is full of traps. LOL.....the Bible says that, no?

[Guest end3]

How can you not acknowledge everthing that is, as is? I always thought that the essence of being a christian was EXACTLY that. Raw truth. That is why I have so much trouble living in this world, because I am willing to acknowldege what is there, warts and all and a lot of people aren't. I truly do not understand this constant quest for escape from the real. Surely maturity requires a logical assessment of a situation looking at all the possible contingencies without freaking out, assuming the worst and letting your emotions run riot. Why is this so hard?

 

Accept starvation, murder, adultry?? I gathered that AM was describing leading a life of walking along accepting all these things "as is". The consensus is that "as is" has the potential to suck at times. How is his perspective not a religion in itself??