A Christian's inerrancy challenge

[SkepticOfBible]

A request to other users, please refrain from using abusive language. This the colloseum not the Lion's Den. We can RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree with each other.

 

No, God's knowledge is determined by our choices, not the other way around.

 

Please explain this. How is God's knowledge determined by our choices, when he already knows everything?

 

You can change them, don't limit yourself.

 

But you can't, if it is God's will(not desire) that I will reject him then he will ensure that I will do exactly that.

 

Hello! Free will is not doing Gods will. Those people that God predestines are ones who do His will, namely me. That, btw is His purpose, for us to do His will

 

If you look carefully the article did say exactly that

 

God predestines atleast some people to their fate.

 

So when you say purpose, you mean his desire, right?

 

Did you know that mankind killed the Son of God? Their own creator's Son.

 

So was the Son seperately created by the Creator?Wasn't "the Son" the Creator himself?

 

His purpose and will is to have His creation, with the choice not to accept Him to accept Him.

In which he already knows that I will not accept him.

 

God knows how we will react when He tests us. He tests us to reveal our character and to run to Him for protection for one reason.

 

But that is certainly not what Pastors teach. They say God is testing his believers to see whether they will choose the word vs the world, just like he tested Isaac, to see if he is faithful.

 

Testing is therefore a wrong word to use, because if you are testing something, you do it because you are not unsure of the result.

 

2) Free will is the choice not to accept God and His will, according to Biblical theology (not Biblical dictionarianism, lol), so since you are not accepting to do His will--namely accept Jesus Christ as your Savior--you are exorcising free will. For me however--one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior--have been predetermined to do so by God.

 

So he predetermines your faith regarding accepting Jesus Christ, but gives me a choice to choose JC or not. That doesn't sound fair.

 

And right afterwards you contradicted your self

 

You see, He knows who will do His will and who will not. He is dividing His creation so that we may see the sin exposed and so that He can purify us when the time comes.

 

The division is planned by him. Therefore he decides before hand that I will that not choose him. So basically choice is merely as illusion, and I am just playing out a part in God's script.

 

That reason is namely to grow strong in relation to Him. God is the source of everything good so naturally it is healthy for a person to seek His face.

 

No he is not, I gave you the verses where it clearly states that he creates evil too.

 

I know you are bogged down by the other users, but is it possible for you to go back and respond to the whole David, Satan and God episode

[Guest sub_zer0]

Here's what was said:

 

If the future choices are known, then they are determined.

 

Right, by our choices.

 

If our futures choices are known, then they are determined. You said "right, by our choices".

 

That is circular.

 

We haven't made the choices yet, how can God know what our choices will be if they are not already determined?

 

They don't need to be determined to be known. Why can't God know what our choices will be if He is all-knowing?

 

What are you talking about??

 

I never changed the fucking definition. Not once. You have been dancing around like a little prick shifting the argument and the definitions to suit your worldview.

 

I'm not using a goddamn dictionary, asshole.

 

Nope. My view is Godly. You see it is based off of God, free will I mean, as I have already explained.

[Kuroikaze]

Nope. My view is Godly. You see it is based off of God, free will I mean, as I have already explained.

 

explained.....right. clearly your definition of explain is not one I know of.

[Asimov]

They don't need to be determined to be known.

 

Of course they do! You are contradicting yourself!

 

If they are known, they are determined. If they are unknown, they are undetermined.

 

Nope. My view is Godly. You see it is based off of God, free will I mean, as I have already explained.

 

 

You haven't explained it, you just asserted it.

 

If you're not even going to define your damn terms then why are you even making a discussion. It's dishonest, and you haven't once defined your terms. You just sit there making your stupid comments that are entirely irrelevant.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Please explain this. How is God's knowledge determined by our choices, when he already knows everything?

 

I already have explained this actually. I am speaking from my terms. The knowledge has already been known for eternity by God.

 

But you can't, if it is God's will(not desire) that I will reject him then he will ensure that I will do exactly that.

 

It isn't God's will, it is your will that God knows you will reject Him.

 

If you look carefully the article did say exactly that

 

God predestines atleast some people to their fate.

 

So when you say purpose, you mean his desire, right?

 

No, I mean His purpose.

 

So was the Son seperately created by the Creator?Wasn't "the Son" the Creator himself?

 

No, the Son is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Father, there is also the Holy Spirit.

 

God = Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Each unique, each dependant upon the other.

 

In which he already knows that I will not accept him.

 

Because that is your choice.

 

But that is certainly not what Pastors teach. They say God is testing his believers to see whether they will choose the word vs the world, just like he tested Isaac, to see if he is faithful.

 

Testing is therefore a wrong word to use, because if you are testing something, you do it because you are not unsure of the result.

 

You are saying exactly what I am saying. You either run to Him when tests (trials and tribulation) in your life arise or you don't, i.e. choose the word or the world.

 

By testing it is meant, trials and tribulations one comes along during his or her life, i.e. death, etc, etc.

 

So he predetermines your faith regarding accepting Jesus Christ, but gives me a choice to choose JC or not. That doesn't sound fair.

 

And right afterwards you contradicted your self

 

We all have a choice, but some were predestined to do His will and some weren't, wouldn't you agree?

 

Remember I chose to do God's will.

 

The division is planned by him. Therefore he decides before hand that I will that not choose him. So basically choice is merely as illusion, and I am just playing out a part in God's script.

 

That decision is based upon your choice however, the choice isn't based upon the decision of God.

 

No he is not, I gave you the verses where it clearly states that he creates evil too.

 

I know you are bogged down by the other users, but is it possible for you to go back and respond to the whole David, Satan and God episode

 

Post the verse exclaiming that God creates evil. He may create something, at first doing His will but with choice to do evil, or not His will however.

 

 

Of course they do! You are contradicting yourself!

 

If they are known, they are determined. If they are unknown, they are undetermined.

 

I am saying your choices, i.e. free will is not determined by God, it is only known.

 

You haven't explained it, you just asserted it.

 

If you're not even going to define your damn terms then why are you even making a discussion. It's dishonest, and you haven't once defined your terms. You just sit there making your stupid comments that are entirely irrelevant.

 

What term have I not defined?

 

explained.....right. clearly your definition of explain is not one I know of.

 

Free will in relation to God has been explained by me, yes.

[Asimov]

I am saying your choices, i.e. free will is not determined by God, it is only known.

 

If the choices are known, then it is determined what those choices are going to be. God knows, therefore the choices are already determined.

 

What term have I not defined?

 

Everything in relation to the discussion of free will, are you dense?

[Guest sub_zer0]

If the choices are known, then it is determined what those choices are going to be. God knows, therefore the choices are already determined.

 

Exactly, they are known but determined by the actual choice iteself when it happens.

[Asimov]

If the choices are known, then it is determined what those choices are going to be. God knows, therefore the choices are already determined.

 

Exactly, they are known but determined by the actual choice iteself when it happens.

 

Wow, first you disagree then you agree.

 

 

Again, the book analogy.

 

The characters in a book make choices. I'm not disputing that. The characters in a book cannot change their choices that are already known.

 

The characters in a book have no free will.

 

Humans make choices. This is not in dispute, sub zero, so why you keep going on about this is beyond me.

 

Humans cannot change their choices.

 

Humans have no free will.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Wow, first you disagree then you agree.

 

 

Again, the book analogy.

 

The characters in a book make choices. I'm not disputing that. The characters in a book cannot change their choices that are already known.

 

The characters in a book have no free will.

 

Humans make choices. This is not in dispute, sub zero, so why you keep going on about this is beyond me.

 

Humans cannot change their choices.

 

Humans have no free will.

 

The known choices that the character wants to be changed is known by God, now if the character's ultimate will was to change the choice, it would be known by God.

 

Either way, God knows because of our free will we exorcise. Because what we will do is already known doesn't mean that we were gonna do something else.

[Kuroikaze]

perhaps it would be better to look at this from the perspective of omnipotence instead of omniscience.

 

We clearly can not have free will if god is omnipotent. If God has all the power, how much power can we have?

[Guest sub_zer0]

perhaps it would be better to look at this from the perspective of omnipotence instead of omniscience.

 

We clearly can not have free will if god is omnipotent. If God has all the power, how much power can we have?

 

Enough to either choose Him or not. Which is what free will is all about.

[Asimov]

The known choices that the character wants to be changed is known by God, now if the character's ultimate will was to change the choice, it would be known by God.

 

What's your fucking point?

 

Either way, God knows because of our free will we exorcise. Because what we will do is already known doesn't mean that we were gonna do something else.

 

You're again making no sense.

 

Put your words into something that is structured, coherent, and comprehensible.

 

 

perhaps it would be better to look at this from the perspective of omnipotence instead of omniscience.

 

We clearly can not have free will if god is omnipotent. If God has all the power, how much power can we have?

 

Enough to either choose Him or not. Which is what free will is all about.

 

You must have failed basic math.

 

 

If I have all the apples, how much do you have?

 

 

subby's answer: enough to make apple juice! Derp!

[SkepticOfBible]

 

I already have explained this actually. I am speaking from my terms. The knowledge has already been known for eternity by God.

 

 

Well, I must have missed it. Sorry

 

 

It isn't God's will, it is your will that God knows you will reject Him.

So if God knows before hand that I will not choose him, I cannot go against that knowledge/will right?

 

No, I mean His purpose.

Please explain what you say is the difference between

No, the Son is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Father, there is also the Holy Spirit.

 

God = Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Each unique, each dependant upon the other.

 

So the Son along with the Father and Holy Spirit created us right. Therefore the son is co -creator and therefore in the end Mankind killed it's own creator when he was here on earth.

 

In which he already knows that I will not accept him.

 

Because that is your choice.

Which was determined by his knowledge?

 

Testing is therefore a wrong word to use, because if you are testing something, you do it because you are not unsure of the result.

You are saying exactly what I am saying. You either run to Him when tests (trials and tribulation) in your life arise or you don't, i.e. choose the word or the world.By testing it is meant, trials and tribulations one comes along during his or her life, i.e. death, etc, etc.

 

So God already knows the result of the "test" but will still conduct the test to see which way the result turns out?

 

So he predetermines your faith regarding accepting Jesus Christ, but gives me a choice to choose JC or not. That doesn't sound fair.

 

And right afterwards you contradicted your self

 

We all have a choice, but some were predestined to do His will and some weren't, wouldn't you agree?

 

So those who were predestined do not have free will. Right before they are born, they are aligned with his will.

 

However with others he will not do. They have choose.

 

Which exactly what I said in my post.

 

Remember I chose to do God's will.

 

Which was predetermined by God.

 

The division is planned by him. Therefore he decides before hand that I will that not choose him. So basically choice is merely as illusion, and I am just playing out a part in God's script.

 

That decision is based upon your choice however, the choice isn't based upon the decision of God.

 

So is God's Decision dependent on our choices or not?

 

And isn't the choice presented by God.

 

No he is not, I gave you the verses where it clearly states that he creates evil too.

 

I know you are bogged down by the other users, but is it possible for you to go back and respond to the whole David, Satan and God episode

 

Post the verse exclaiming that God creates evil. He may create something, at first doing His will but with choice to do evil, or not His will however.

 

Well, you can't have the Bible God actually creating anything "unholy", so according to your rationalization evil magically manifested itself out of a cosmic soup prepared by God in which God only provided the ingredients.

 

That sounds more like deism where a cosmic creator stands back and lets things happen.

 

That rationalization works both ways of course… God also only created the "possibility" of good but didn't actually create anything good.

 

Since the Bible states that God created all things, not simply good things or some things, evil must emerge from the same being which created everything else.

 

Isa 45:7 in the KJV states quite clearly that God creates evil. I am aware that NASB and NIV editors saw to it that the word evil was replaced by the less sinister sounding "calamity". Not suprisingly the verse in Gen is not translated as "tree of Good and Calamity", but as "tree of Good and Evil".

 

Apparently the KJV was falsely translated. So why would God let his word be incorrectly translated and circulated for hundreds of years?.

 

Apart from Is 45:7, there are numerous other verses where God takes full responsibility of sending "evil" to the people.

[Guest sub_zer0]

So if God knows before hand that I will not choose him, I cannot go against that knowledge/will right?

 

Right, but that knowledge of God is based upon the fact that you won't go against that. If you were to go against that, then that would be His knowledge.

 

Please explain what you say is the difference between

 

Purpose is something that will happen, desire is something that you want to happen.

 

So the Son along with the Father and Holy Spirit created us right. Therefore the son is co -creator and therefore in the end Mankind killed it's own creator when he was here on earth.

 

God created the world.

 

Which was determined by his knowledge?

 

God's knowledge is determined upon our choices.

 

So God already knows the result of the "test" but will still conduct the test to see which way the result turns out?

 

He already knows the results, it is to develop character in us towards or against God. It is for our understanding of ourselves and of our relationship with God.

 

So those who were predestined do not have free will. Right before they are born, they are aligned with his will.

 

However with others he will not do. They have choose.

 

Which exactly what I said in my post.

 

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

 

Which was predetermined by God.

 

Which was known by God. Only determined because that is actually what we will do.

 

So is God's Decision dependent on our choices or not?

 

And isn't the choice presented by God.

 

God's knowledge of all things and free will is based on upon our choices.

 

Well, you can't have the Bible God actually creating anything "unholy", so according to your rationalization evil magically manifested itself out of a cosmic soup prepared by God in which God only provided the ingredients.

 

Wrong, God created us and angels with free will or the ability not to do God's will. Lucifer chose not to do Gods will.

 

That rationalization works both ways of course… God also only created the "possibility" of good but didn't actually create anything good.

 

They were created good before they chose to do bad.

 

Since the Bible states that God created all things, not simply good things or some things, evil must emerge from the same being which created everything else.

 

Isa 45:7 in the KJV states quite clearly that God creates evil. I am aware that NASB and NIV editors saw to it that the word evil was replaced by the less sinister sounding "calamity". Not suprisingly the verse in Gen is not translated as "tree of Good and Calamity", but as "tree of Good and Evil".

 

Apparently the KJV was falsely translated. So why would God let his word be incorrectly translated and circulated for hundreds of years?.

 

Apart from Is 45:7, there are numerous other verses where God takes full responsibility of sending "evil" to the people.

 

In Isaiah 45:7 it is calamity. Indeed nothing happens outside of God's will. God is repsonsible for all things that happen. But He never gave us anything we didn't ask for. Remember we chose agains't Him by choice thus inviting everything that came with that choice.

[SkepticOfBible]

God created the world.

 

According to you Jesus(Son)+Father+HS=God. God is our creator, therefore Jesus is also our creator. Therefore we killed his human incarnation on earth. Right. (or as the bible says, "the Jews killed the lord")

 

God's knowledge is determined upon our choices.

So God is playing Chess with us

 

He already knows the results, it is to develop character in us towards or against God. It is for our understanding of ourselves and of our relationship with God.

So if wants to develop our character against God, he will form a test in a such a way that he will make it happen?

 

On the that is certainly not what the bible says. God is putting the various characters to see whether they will choose him or not, there is nothing in the particular verses which says that God wanted to develop their character.

 

 

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

 

Will you stop changing your stance.

 

That decision is based upon your choice however, the choice isn't based upon the decision of God.

 

We all have a choice, but some were predestined to do His will and some weren't,

 

If your fate is predetermined then that elimates the idea of choice.

 

Which was known by God. Only determined because that is actually what we will do.

 

Hello, he knew and decided before hand what will do. Once he decides, you can't go against it.

 

God's knowledge of all things and free will is based on upon our choices.

 

Wrong, God created us and angels with free will or the ability not to do God's will. Lucifer chose not to do Gods will.

 

I am still waiting for the verse in the OT where it actually says that

 

That rationalization works both ways of course… God also only created the "possibility" of good but didn't actually create anything good.

They were created good before they chose to do bad.

So he creates the possibility of Evil but not the possibilty of Good?

 

Since the Bible states that God created all things, not simply good things or some things, evil must emerge from the same being which created everything else.

 

Isa 45:7 in the KJV states quite clearly that God creates evil. I am aware that NASB and NIV editors saw to it that the word evil was replaced by the less sinister sounding "calamity". Not suprisingly the verse in Gen is not translated as "tree of Good and Calamity", but as "tree of Good and Evil".

 

Apparently the KJV was falsely translated. So why would God let his word be incorrectly translated and circulated for hundreds of years?.

 

Apart from Is 45:7, there are numerous other verses where God takes full responsibility of sending "evil" to the people.

 

In Isaiah 45:7 it is calamity.

 

If it is calamity in Is 45:7, then why does it not say "Knowledge of Good and Calamity" in Genesis?

 

And please also answer the highlghted section.

 

Indeed nothing happens outside of God's will. God is repsonsible for all things that happen. But He never gave us anything we didn't ask for. Remember we chose agains't Him by choice thus inviting everything that came with that choice.

 

so once again you are contradicting yourself

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.[

[quicksand]

1 John 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Irrelevant. All you've done is now reduce your god to nothing more than a common emotion and a series of neuro-chemical impulses in the brain. While love is a complex emotion, is your assertion that this emotion is more complex than creation and that of God? If this is the case, you make a better argument for non-existence of God than I do.

 

God's will included the choice not to accept His.

Great. Then you've just conceded the point that God is completely responsible for sin and by association - evil. Your Fred Astaire moves earlier of Lucifer to Satan, or freewill etc, are refuted.

 

You're essentially agreeing with Asimov that their is no such thing as human freewill - which is again irrelevant.

 

Wrong, I am not a monotheist. How little is known about Christianity and the Bible is shocking sometimes.

Irrelevant as to what I know. My argument stands and is un-refuted. However, I think it is more possible that you are completely unaware as to the theological struggle that Christianity faced since it's inclusion to the canon of Roman religious practice (after the Diocletian persecution of 380 c.e.) and the central role that Imperial authority played in settling over doctrinal disputes amongst rival camps of Christians that have become the main and shared dogmas of the present day.

 

I hope you didn't mean that...

Hey its your reasoning. If angels and Lucifer have freewill, just like I do, then all things being equal - I am an angel. So all I need to do is announce myself as one since the criteria you offer likewise identifies not only me, but all of humanity as angels.

 

That's the inherent problem of removing the middle ground.

 

Wrong. God is perfect and seperate from His creation in that regard. His will is always not to sin, ours is to either accept His will or to sin.

Irrelevant.

 

Again, by Christian criteria there is no middle ground between A & E and God. All things being equal, then God can sin. Or, A & E made perfect choices to listen to a talking snake, and therefore, no original sin was committed.

 

Perfect beings. Perfect choices. No such thing as sin.

 

Also, since you state that god is separate from creation, he can not be defined as love as you so offered above. Have you ever read the bible? Your god shows nothing but the meddling in the affairs of humanity. So much for being "separate."

 

They weren't perfect.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and read the bible. God created A & E in his image. God's creation was perfect as well. So, while you're trying to argue both ways here (with typical Xian slipperiness and through deliberate obtuseness) your now implying that God designed creation from the get-go as flawed.

 

No need, once again, for a doctrine of sin or to likewise punish for it. ha ha.

 

[Anakin]

I like how you say, I will try to explain it away. That is like I know that grasshopper is going to jump. It's obvious I will have to explain some passages as you think predestination means everybody and I don't think you know the specifics of those verses.

I was right.

Having said that, Epheisians 1:

Are you one of the "sons through Jesus Christ"? Because if you are you would know that YOU are predestined, not everybody, but those who accept His will are predestined to submit to it, or become a son through Jesus Christ.

And the people who were not chosen were likewise predestined to their fate.

2 Thessalonians 2:

Again speaking of the "brethren" in Christ. Not everybody.

2 Thes 2:11,12. Silly me. When I read that god shall send a strong delusion, that people

believe a lie, that they might be damned, I don't think he is speaking of "brethren" in

christ. If he was, then you're out of luck just like the rest of us.

Jude 1:

Speaking about the ones who do not accept Gods will, or accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Indeed if you have the saved determined (while taking into account free choice), you are bound to have some that are not saved. For God, it wouldn't be hard to know exactly who will be saved and who will not, don't you think

So what you're saying is that since god predetermines some to be saved that naturally others

will not be saved. Which means those not saved were also predetermined. Predetermination

rules out free will. If your choices have been decided for you ahead of time by an all powerful

being, then your choices were never free in the first place. Of course it wouldn't be hard

for god to know exactly who will be saved and who wouldn't. He already decided that before

creation.

 

 

How can you say predestination doesn't mean everybody? That's like saying you were

chosen to be in god's glee club and that's predestination. However, I wasn't chosen

and that's not predestination.

[white_raven23]

Edit my posts huh? Well I'll be you can do that here?

 

I could until the "webmaster" banned me for a while for absolutely no reason. Along with that banning was sufficient privelages taken away, I can't look at profiles, I can't start a topic and what do you know, I can't edit my posts either.

 

Funky. Good to know, eh.

 

Usual, hostile treatment of a believer in Jesus Christ. It isn't the first time I have been harrassed for speaking my beliefs.

 

Eponymic......ugh! You are way too damn nice sometimes.

 

Sub_zero, I don't care if the Webmaster withheld editing privilages. I can see why he did it. You have neither the care, nor the respect for making sure you say what you mean the first time around (when your originally post), and when someone calls you on it.....instead of saying "oops", YOU have the audacity to claim that WE misunderstood your post, despite your post being horribly in "error" (freudian slip would more accurately describe your so-called "mistakes").

 

Know why I don't care that your editing privs are taken away? Because there is still such a thing as the "Preview" button that gives you a second chance to read your shit over before committing it to the Board, which as someone who cannot use the edit button, is a feature you would be wise to make use of. The fact that you don't have the sense to do this, and whine about your supposed persecution instead.....makes me respect you about as much as I respect toilet paper after I've used it.

 

There is such a thing as SELF-EDITING (re-reading our own shit.....in case you want to play ignorant of what I'm talking about), which most of us do all the damn time. We have enough respect for our own words to make sure they mean what we want them to mean.

 

The Edit button you wish to whine about not having (you poor persecuted bitch).....is the LAST RESORT for most thinking people here. WE are capable of self-editing before we commit our words to the board. And there are many ways of doing this.

 

Eponymic is wrong to be as nice as he is, because he knows just as well as I do that you have every opportunity to decide that your posts convey what you want to say....BEFORE you hit that "post" button!

 

And to be honest Sub......even if your post manages to get beyond your reach....it is STILL within the Mods reach! If you say something that winds up being grossly opposing to what you actually mean, you can ASK a MOD to fix it!

 

Of course this would mean using that four letter word you can't handle, saying...."oops", and admitting to error. Thus HUMBLING yourself which is supposedly what you christians are supposed to do!

 

So quit whining, quit playing stupid, quit trying to pretend WE are in error when you respond to someone intending sarcasm that "you made god in your image" with an affirmation.

[jrmarlin]

Of course this would mean using that four letter word you can't handle, saying...."oops", and admitting to error. Thus HUMBLING yourself which is supposedly what you christians are supposed to do!

 

So quit whining, quit playing stupid, quit trying to pretend WE are in error when you respond to someone intending sarcasm that "you made god in your image" with an affirmation.

Your whole post was most inspiring to me. WR, you are amazing. Just know that someone was inspired by you today! You ROCK!

 

Sub: You should follow WR's advice. At least, WR took the time to give you some. Regardless of whether or not you can edit, I still think all your posts are full of bullshit. Some of the things you said I have never heard before - even in church. I think you're more akin to Sub-Zeroism as opposted to Xianity. You should re-read your posts and see how fucking nuts you look to us. Because for me, as I can't speak for anyone else here, but to me, you sound crazier than a shithouse rat!

[NotBlinded]

You apparently don't know what God is.

And you can't claim that you do either sub. Be honest here. I know what is being said here is not getting through, and I also understand that it's not your fault. Maybe if you clear your mind and allow your own judgement to work, you may be able to break through a little.

[NotBlinded]

You do not need to be included with sin if you are omnipresent. Especially when the sinful know of you. Ultimately when all comes to an end, you will all have full recognition of God is and that you were supposed to have but was blocked out by your sin.

 

You are forgetting the many times I have said that Hell's punishment is the fact that God's presence isn't there.

And you are forgetting the many times I have told you that it is turning away and not acknowleding gods presence, our true nature, is the first sin. Pretending that that presence is not with you is not the same as it not being there. Just because you don't pay any attention to the flower on the wall doesn't mean it's not there. Oh, I wish you could wake up.

[NotBlinded]

OK, well I was still referencing it.

 

You see, I am not here to be changed by any of you, by all means I am listening and understanding what you are all saying, although it is hard as I am only one person. But I am here for a different reason, I am here to change all of you by sharing and defending the Word of God as best as I can.

 

Pick one thing I have presented and how I have twisted it to fit my taste and my needs instead of representing what what Christian theology based on Biblical teaching is all about.

Sub, you are not understanding. You have ears, but you don't hear. You cannot change anyone sub, that has to come from within the person. You are an example of that.

 

Sub, I can only find a few things that you have not twisted, although you don't do it on purpose. You are presenting ONE view of biblical teaching and herein lies your problem. Look into other ways to understand the bible. I did and it is wonderful! Try it...please.

 

I KNOW THAT, YOU SAYING IT DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY CLEARER!!! YOU AREN'T REFUTING IT, YOU'RE AGREEING WITH ME THAT WE DON'T HAVE FREE WILL.

 

No, I am saying God's knowledge is based on our free will to choose what we want.

 

Including future choices, which you haven't made yet and can't change.

 

Because it is what you would/will choose. That is why it won't be changed.

 

Look at it like a book. The characters in the book make choices...correct? To the characters in the book, time goes on like regular time. To them, we are eternal being viewing them.

 

We can go forward and see what choices they will make.

 

Because they can't change those choices that we know they will make, the characters in the book have no free will.

 

Their free will is those choices they will make.

Sub, this is telling me that you have placed a condition on god's knowledge. His knowledge is based on our choices. In other words, he doesn't know until (condition) we choose. Is that what you really want to say?

[NotBlinded]

 

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

Then why are you here? You said you are here to change us. Now you must leave (I really don't wish you to) or you must change the reason you are here.

[Anakin]

It's obvious I will have to explain some passages as you think predestination means everybody and I don't think you know the specifics of those verses.

 

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

 

So which is it brother? Does it include everybody or not?

[Checkmate]

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

I concur with nbbtb. zer0, since you subscribe to this Calvinist doctrine of predestination, then what is the point of preaching and evangelism? If you, sub_zer0, truly are a Calvinist, then why are you preaching so hard to us, as if you can change our predestinated outcome? Aren't you tilting at God's windmill?

 

Most Christians (even Fundy Baptists) reject Calvinism because of the obvious fatalism. Since everyone is FATED to be whatever God has PREDESTINATED, then we may as well lay down and die. What's the point in living if our script has been written and set in stone? What is the point of preaching salvation to us IF, as you claim, everyone has been PREDESTINATED to either accept or receive Him? Where is this so-called "free will" you've blathering about? Apparently we only have a "free will" to live according to our predistinated course.

 

 

If this is what you believe, it's no wonder you sound like a lunatic when you post.