A Christian's inerrancy challenge

[Eponymic]

Why such hostility, can anybody respond to me without swearing at me? I mean, its starting to get old and that is why you aren't seeing me as much.

 

Here is a perfect example of you picking & choosing what you focus on. There have been quite a few people on here that have responded to you without swearing, you are just focusing heavily on those that are swearing.

 

 

Religion didn't create evil. Evil, which was in existence before religion, influenced it. That evil influence on man, thus religion ultimately, led to man using it to justify things that the Bible never intended to justify in the first place.

 

By me saying Bible, I mean people who believe in it (the religion) and tryed to use it for justification of horrible things.

 

Oh, you mean like how God justifies killing all the first born kiddies of Egypt. Yeah, that's not horrible. Not horrible as all the other things he justifies.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Here we go.

 

Definitions:

 

Libertarian Free Will: An action (mental or physical) is free if and only if the agent performing that action could have done otherwise. IOW, the ability to refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

Omniscient: All knowing. The knowledge of all things at all times in all places. The implications regarding omniscience is that there is no uncertainty factor in regards to God's knowledge of the entirety of existence. This requires that God exists in all places at all times.

 

Syllogism:

 

P1 - If God has always foreknown that Asimov would choose x at point t, then it is not within Asimov's power to refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

P2 - If it is not within Asimov's power to refrain from choosing x at point t, then Asimov's action x at point t is not a libertarian free action.

 

C1 - Therefore, if God has always foreknown that Asimov would choose x at point t, then Asimovs action x at point t is not a libertarian free action.

 

P3 - If God has foreknowledge of every human action, then no persons action is a free action.

 

C2 - Libertarian Free Will is invalid.

 

Just because God knows what you will pick doesn't mean you don't have free will. It means that He knew what choice and at what point you would choose it.

 

I am not argueing with you as to who is control.

 

Ultimately if Satan is on the leash of God, then all this doctrinal hocus pocus of Satan/Devil decieving you is nothing more than a deception from God himself. If God's want to stop all the temptation through Satan, he can stop right now.

 

But as you pointed Satan is nothing more than a tool, which God uses to "fulfill his will". If you are being tempted by Satan, then it is the will of God.

 

Perhaps instead of rebuking Satan, christians should pray to their god, to control Satan.

 

Exactly the will of God decrees Satan so that he is able to test us and give us a choice to either follow God or follow Satan.

 

The "sin" David committed was inspired by God, not by David. God was using David as a tool to take vengence on Israel for some unspecified transgression.If David had ordered a proper census, God would have had no valid reason to punish Israel.

 

An improper census was needed to generate a sin, which is then used as a reason for God to vent his wrath.

This whole census episode reeks of Godly manipulation.

 

Sin is never inspired by God, but by Satan. No improper census was needed to generate sin.

 

But you are right in one thing, God was in control the whole time... The most probable sequence in our passages runs like this:

 

* God is angry with Israel's sin (and David's handling of the royal family issues).

* Satan sees his opportunity, accuses them of wrongdoing, and wins approval to inflict David's and Israel's wrongdoing back on themselves.

* God, knowing that the punishment is well deserved, that the example of correction/contrition on David's part will be recorded in Scripture forever as an example, and that He will be gracious 'ahead of schedule' and reveal the site of his temple/crucifixion, agrees to turn David and Israel over to him, for this specific punishment (cf. I Cor 5.5).

* Satan, with this permission from God, moves David to begin the Census.

 

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hcensus.html

 

Oh, you mean like how God justifies killing all the first born kiddies of Egypt. Yeah, that's not horrible. Not horrible as all the other things he justifies.

 

You forgot that if somebody can't make a choice to follow God, like a baby, is spared. Not so horrible if you look at like that, these first born babies were spared from the hateful world that they would have had to grow up in.

[white_raven23]

Here we go.

 

Definitions:

 

Libertarian Free Will: An action (mental or physical) is free if and only if the agent performing that action could have done otherwise. IOW, the ability to refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

Omniscient: All knowing. The knowledge of all things at all times in all places. The implications regarding omniscience is that there is no uncertainty factor in regards to God's knowledge of the entirety of existence. This requires that God exists in all places at all times.

 

Syllogism:

 

P1 - If God has always foreknown that Asimov would choose x at point t, then it is not within Asimov's power to refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

P2 - If it is not within Asimov's power to refrain from choosing x at point t, then Asimov's action x at point t is not a libertarian free action.

 

C1 - Therefore, if God has always foreknown that Asimov would choose x at point t, then Asimovs action x at point t is not a libertarian free action.

 

P3 - If God has foreknowledge of every human action, then no persons action is a free action.

 

C2 - Libertarian Free Will is invalid.

 

Just because God knows what you will pick doesn't mean you don't have free will. It means that He knew what choice and at what point you would choose it.

 

And if that is the case, then you forget God would also have a full and complete understanding of WHY people have made the choices they have made. With such understanding....damnation by a supreme being is impossible.

 

Oh, you mean like how God justifies killing all the first born kiddies of Egypt. Yeah, that's not horrible. Not horrible as all the other things he justifies.

 

You forgot that if somebody can't make a choice to follow God, like a baby, is spared. Not so horrible if you look at like that, these first born babies were spared from the hateful world that they would have had to grow up in.

 

By this logic, christians should totally love abortion then. But they don't. Double standard anyone?

[Eponymic]

Just because God knows what you will pick doesn't mean you don't have free will. It means that He knew what choice and at what point you would choose it.

 

Boy oh boy. If someone knows the end result, and has set up the game to play out as such, then there's no freedom for the players. Because there fate is already sealed, no matter how they act, they're acting according to this preconceived plan. It's Perceived free will, yes. But actual? No.

 

But you are right in one thing, God was in control the whole time... The most probable sequence in our passages runs like this:

 

You forgot that if somebody can't make a choice to follow God, like a baby, is spared. Not so horrible if you look at like that, these first born babies were spared from the hateful world that they would have had to grow up in.

 

There you go again with the rude assumptions. I know about the spared Baby clause. Saying I forgot, when you don't even know if I know about it in the first place is pure inconsiderate presupposition.

 

So you advocate abortion then? Because you might as well if you're saying that it's okay for God to kill off already born babies. Oh, not so bad that they were spared this life, great way to candy coat mass genocide. You're willing to justify murder when God is the one doing it, but nobody else has reason cause to break God's one-dimensional rules except God.

 

And really, I don't care who 'inspired' the action. In Bible talk, the root cause of it belongs to God in the first place as he created evil & sin. You sure are good about skipping around how this is all God's responsibility & how somehow he is absolved of behaving like a rude, petulant, prideful, wratful, sinning machine who is more than happy to sin himself, but sure doesn't like it when anyone else does.

 

Yes, in the Bible world, God was in control all the time as the omnipotent overseer. And as such, it's his playground for which is not only in control, but by the fact that he made the rules & playing field, is responsible for everything as well.

 

That's the base fact baby.

According to the Bible:

God created evil

God purposely made us the way we are

God made us without proper knowledge of the world he made then punished us for behaving exactly according to his design

God uses inferior, negative methods in order to achieve his ends

God behaves like a human

God breaks his own rules

 

No matter how you slice it, it's not the behavior of a benevolent, loving entity that deserves the love he is requesting. If any other entity besides one claiming to be God did these acts, we'd be looking to take him down in a heartbeat.

[white_raven23]

Annnd AGAIN!!!!

 

No sooner do we make it clear that by advocating god's murder of the innocents, that the christian opposition of abortion is completely illogical....

 

Zero immediately disappears AGAIN!

 

Every single time!

 

No doubt he will wait around for something "easy" like an emotionally based argument, or wait for someone to start cursing again.........

 

Then he'll pop back in and go back to being patronizing while ignoring all the well thought out and logical posts in favor for ones that only "seem" easier to cope with. Or ones at least that allow him to continue stroking his religion and pretending it's "right".

[Checkmate]

...............

You forgot that if somebody can't make a choice to follow God, like a baby, is spared. Not so horrible if you look at like that, these first born babies were spared from the hateful world that they would have had to grow up in.

zer0, I have been staring at this comment for a while, in the vain hope of seeing the punch line. To no avail. You actually had the GALL to utter these retarded words and MEAN them seriously?!?

 

And while I would LOVE to give your words the response they so richly deserve, I will respect the fact that this thread is in The Colosseum. (Maybe the Mod gods will do me the favor of moving it into the Lion's Den? ) I won't flame you.

 

What I WILL do is provide a link to an old thread of mine and let THOSE words be my reply to yours. Click here if you dare.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Boy oh boy. If someone knows the end result, and has set up the game to play out as such, then there's no freedom for the players. Because there fate is already sealed, no matter how they act, they're acting according to this preconceived plan. It's Perceived free will, yes. But actual? No.

 

The game isn't setup. The game is played by our free will.

 

So you advocate abortion then? Because you might as well if you're saying that it's okay for God to kill off already born babies. Oh, not so bad that they were spared this life, great way to candy coat mass genocide. You're willing to justify murder when God is the one doing it, but nobody else has reason cause to break God's one-dimensional rules except God.

 

No, I do not advocat abortion.

 

And really, I don't care who 'inspired' the action. In Bible talk, the root cause of it belongs to God in the first place as he created evil & sin. You sure are good about skipping around how this is all God's responsibility & how somehow he is absolved of behaving like a rude, petulant, prideful, wratful, sinning machine who is more than happy to sin himself, but sure doesn't like it when anyone else does.

 

Wrong, the Bible says God is not capable of sin. Luicfer had free will, created Satan, thus creating evil.

 

The only thing God has done is create the angel.

 

Yes, in the Bible world, God was in control all the time as the omnipotent overseer. And as such, it's his playground for which is not only in control, but by the fact that he made the rules & playing field, is responsible for everything as well.

 

That's the base fact baby.

According to the Bible:

God created evil

God purposely made us the way we are

God made us without proper knowledge of the world he made then punished us for behaving exactly according to his design

God uses inferior, negative methods in order to achieve his ends

God behaves like a human

God breaks his own rules

 

No matter how you slice it, it's not the behavior of a benevolent, loving entity that deserves the love he is requesting. If any other entity besides one claiming to be God did these acts, we'd be looking to take him down in a heartbeat.

 

According to the Bible:

God created Lucifer and all other angels with free will to obey Him or not.

[DanInPA]

the Bible says God is not capable of sin. Luicfer had free will, created Satan, thus creating evil.

 

The only thing God has done is create the angel.

 

 

 

According to the Bible:God created Lucifer and all other angels with free will to obey Him or not.

 

Please provide verses that attest to these two assumptions.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

According to the Bible:

God created Lucifer and all other angels with free will to obey Him or not.

 

I second Dan's question. Find scriptural attestation of the notion of "free will." As I recall, that phrase is not in the Bible. What the Bible does say is that God determines all events and is the author of evil - that's in Isaiah. Scripture talks about people deserving punishment, but that's a different claim than to assert that they have free will. St. Paul says in Romans that some are vessels of wrath, predestined to destruction.

[jrmarlin]

Hold on here, God is everything so God is Satan. How can that be when Satan was an angel like you say? I'm sorry but you saying it doesn't make it ture.

 

God created angels with free will, Lucifer created evil and became Satan. The angels are a direct product of God, Satan is a direct product of Lucifer.

God says that God made everything - even evil. Look up Isaiah 45-7. So if God made everything than God made Lucifer aka devil aka Satan aka everything. God would then in turn be satan.

 

Also, God really did a number to Adam and Eve. He completely set them up to fail... so therefore, God also set the stage for sin, thus making sin.

 

 

And you are wrong. God said the ONLY will is to be with God. If you went against the Will of God, then you and third and fourth generations would suffer punishment. So the free will was washed out with the big 10.

 

If you were more practical and logical you would see what I speak is the Truth.

[Eponymic]

The game isn't setup. The game is played by our free will.

 

So then God isn't omnipotent or omniscient in your opinion. Because you can't have both.

 

 

Wrong, the Bible says God is not capable of sin. Luicfer had free will, created Satan, thus creating evil.

 

The only thing God has done is create the angel.

 

EXACTAMUNDO! God is not capable of sin therefore he can do all of the EXACT SAME THINGS WE DO just because he is the big stud. It is still, no matter how you cut it, God disobeying his own laws. It doesn't matter that the Bible says he can't sin- obviously, many of his actions are the same exact sins that he tells us not to do. It's still hypocrisy & just saying he isn't capable of sin doesn't absolve him of his responsibility. If he's the role model, how are we supposed to listen to his words when his actions are comprised of sins?

 

According to the Bible:

God created Lucifer and all other angels with free will to obey Him or not.

 

Very nice one-dimensional answer to a multi-layered question/comment.

[Guest sub_zer0]

So then God isn't omnipotent or omniscient in your opinion. Because you can't have both.

 

Loss of your own free will isn't a requirement for being a God that is all-knowing.

 

EXACTAMUNDO! God is not capable of sin therefore he can do all of the EXACT SAME THINGS WE DO just because he is the big stud. It is still, no matter how you cut it, God disobeying his own laws. It doesn't matter that the Bible says he can't sin- obviously, many of his actions are the same exact sins that he tells us not to do. It's still hypocrisy & just saying he isn't capable of sin doesn't absolve him of his responsibility. If he's the role model, how are we supposed to listen to his words when his actions are comprised of sins?

 

How does God disobey His own laws because He cannot sin?

 

You are forgetting that things can be done in a Godly manner. That is what we on earth strive to do and what God does with ease. God exorcises perfect, judgement in the case of sin, every time He has to intervene with mankind in a worldly manner because of sin. By worldly manner I mean allowing Satan to decieve and infest the world with killing, hate, etc and God having to decree that because man chose it.

 

God says that God made everything - even evil. Look up Isaiah 45-7. So if God made everything than God made Lucifer aka devil aka Satan aka everything. God would then in turn be satan.

 

Again, God made angels, including Lucifer, all of them with free will. Lucifer then disobyed God, or essentially sinned, by saying I want to be in control, I don't need God. That is his creation by his own free will, Lucifer became Satan or adversary to God and all things God. There you have it, the beginning of choice for all, the beginning of free will.

 

Also, God really did a number to Adam and Eve. He completely set them up to fail... so therefore, God also set the stage for sin, thus making sin.

 

God did nothing but give them choice.

 

And you are wrong. God said the ONLY will is to be with God. If you went against the Will of God, then you and third and fourth generations would suffer punishment. So the free will was washed out with the big 10.

 

If you were more practical and logical you would see what I speak is the Truth.

 

God's will is the only way to be with God on earth and when you die, likewise following your free will or that of a creation of Satan on earth you will be with Satan and hell when you die.

 

Indeed going against the will of God, i.e. sinning, results in judgment or righteous punishment from God because of your blatent disregard of His word, His instructions.

[Mythra]

This is the colliseum. Hmm. What are the rules again? Oh well. I can't help it.

 

Hey ZERO:

 

[Anakin]

My question to you then is where in the Bible does it negate free will for our reality?

Are you asking where the bible negates free will or where the bible negates reality?

When I said "reality" I meant the real world. The bible cannot negate reality. It's just a book.

[Asimov]

Just because God knows what you will pick doesn't mean you don't have free will. It means that He knew what choice and at what point you would choose it.

 

Dude, did you even read the fucking syllogism or the terms?

 

Free Will - The ability to refrain from choosing x at point t.

God knows we will choose x at point t, therefore we cannot refrain from choosing x at point t.

Therefore we don't have free will.

 

If you're not going to pay attention and just make stupid remarks that have nothing to do with what I'm saying then you deserve hostility.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Dude, did you even read the fucking syllogism or the terms?

 

Free Will - The ability to refrain from choosing x at point t.

God knows we will choose x at point t, therefore we cannot refrain from choosing x at point t.

Therefore we don't have free will.

 

If you're not going to pay attention and just make stupid remarks that have nothing to do with what I'm saying then you deserve hostility.

 

You have to realize that God has factored into His knowledge of your ability to refrain from choosing x at point t, He knows when and how much you will refrain and your ultimate choice.

[Eponymic]

 

Loss of your own free will isn't a requirement for being a God that is all-knowing.

 

Well yeah. Because there is no true free will. Quit trying to have your cake & eat it too. You're playing the old run around Christian logic game where you ignore the facts.

 

Take God out of the equation.

 

How can you support an all-knowing figure, who created the game, created the rules, and then set things into motion knowing full well how it's all going to end; how can you support that this figure isn't responsible for everything since he set it all up? He knows how it's going to end, having prior knowledge of the finish, as clarified in previous posts, makes it impossible for any of the participants to have a true free will. There fate is sealed. They think they're making free choices, but the figurehead knows what's going to happen, so they will go exactly where he meant them to go when he created the whole thing in the very beginning.

 

YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

 

How does God disobey His own laws because He cannot sin?

 

You are forgetting that things can be done in a Godly manner. That is what we on earth strive to do and what God does with ease. God exorcises perfect, judgement in the case of sin, every time He has to intervene with mankind in a worldly manner because of sin. By worldly manner I mean allowing Satan to decieve and infest the world with killing, hate, etc and God having to decree that because man chose it.

 

God allows the sin, but isn't responsible for it? That's like saying a manager allows an employee steal from the till, and isn't responsible for it. Or that just because a mother tells her child to beat the heck out of another kid, she isn't responsible for it. If God is so powerful, how come he can't use a different recourse to achieve his means? All he's doing here is not behaving in a Godly manner. But rather, acting in a very human manner. A God should be able to deal with things quite differently than we do (set an example). Rather than do the same exact sins, and call them fair game because they're in a "Godly" manner.

 

Come on.

 

Also, God really did a number to Adam and Eve. He completely set them up to fail... so therefore, God also set the stage for sin, thus making sin.

 

God did nothing but give them choice.

 

Yeah. God didn't create the world, or set up the rules, or create them in a manner that they didn't know what they were doing, but were responsible for it anyway.

 

Please. Did nothing else? According to your Bible he bloody well did everything but buy them a Camaro & send them out to the coast for a shagging party.

 

God's will is the only way to be with God on earth and when you die, likewise following your free will or that of a creation of Satan on earth you will be with Satan and hell when you die.

 

So far you're making that sound a heck of a lot more appealing (if it were real).

[All Gods Fail]

Dude, did you even read the fucking syllogism or the terms?

 

Free Will - The ability to refrain from choosing x at point t.

God knows we will choose x at point t, therefore we cannot refrain from choosing x at point t.

Therefore we don't have free will.

 

If you're not going to pay attention and just make stupid remarks that have nothing to do with what I'm saying then you deserve hostility.

 

You have to realize that God has factored into His knowledge of your ability to refrain from choosing x at point t, He knows when and how much you will refrain and your ultimate choice.

 

This has got to be the lamest 'reasoning' I've ever heard on this site. Seriously.

 

Dudes, stop trying to wise this guy up. It can't be done.

 

This is just pathetic. 'God knows you know that he knows you know. So God knows that you know what you know he knows. What?"

[Guest sub_zer0]

Well yeah. Because there is no true free will. Quit trying to have your cake & eat it too. You're playing the old run around Christian logic game where you ignore the facts.

 

Take God out of the equation.

 

How can you support an all-knowing figure, who created the game, created the rules, and then set things into motion knowing full well how it's all going to end; how can you support that this figure isn't responsible for everything since he set it all up? He knows how it's going to end, having prior knowledge of the finish, as clarified in previous posts, makes it impossible for any of the participants to have a true free will. There fate is sealed. They think they're making free choices, but the figurehead knows what's going to happen, so they will go exactly where he meant them to go when he created the whole thing in the very beginning.

 

YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

 

That figure you speak of is God for me, so I can't take that out of the equation. God is responsible for creating us, we are responsible for sinning against Him, or not doing His will.

 

There fate isn't sealed. God bases His knowledge of the end result not on where He meant you to go, but by your choices and your actions. God never meant for anybody to go anywhere accept to where they choose to go.

 

The only time God means for somebody to do something is when that is have faith in Him.

 

God allows the sin, but isn't responsible for it? That's like saying a manager allows an employee steal from the till, and isn't responsible for it. Or that just because a mother tells her child to beat the heck out of another kid, she isn't responsible for it. If God is so powerful, how come he can't use a different recourse to achieve his means? All he's doing here is not behaving in a Godly manner. But rather, acting in a very human manner. A God should be able to deal with things quite differently than we do (set an example). Rather than do the same exact sins, and call them fair game because they're in a "Godly" manner.

 

Come on.

 

God decrees Satan, He never allows sin. He allows Satan to influence and tempt us, just as God influences us in all other ways. We always choose to either follow our will (influenced by Satan) or God's will.

 

Yeah. God didn't create the world, or set up the rules, or create them in a manner that they didn't know what they were doing, but were responsible for it anyway.

 

God created a perfect world, with choice. With Satan to give them that sin, or choice of their will over God's.

 

Remember we were in a perfect enviroment, yet the temptation to do our own will was overwhelming and we sinned and sin till this day.

 

This has got to be the lamest 'reasoning' I've ever heard on this site. Seriously.

 

Dudes, stop trying to wise this guy up. It can't be done.

 

This is just pathetic. 'God knows you know that he knows you know. So God knows that you know what you know he knows. What?"

 

Here let me clarify, God knows what you will ultimately do, that doesn't mean that you do not have free will. It means that the free will we exorcise is what creates that knowledge. He doesn't learn as we go however because He already knew.

 

Simple enough, I hope.

[Asimov]

You have to realize that God has factored into His knowledge of your ability to refrain from choosing x at point t, He knows when and how much you will refrain and your ultimate choice.

 

What does this even mean?

[Guest sub_zer0]

What does this even mean?

 

Let's try this again...

 

You are saying that free will is the ability to refrain from choosing x at point t. Since God knows that already we can't refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

I am saying the fact we refrain from choosing x at point t we have free will. The fact that God knows we will refrain doesn't negate us exorcising that free will. It just means He knows us that much more because God knows we will refrain.

[Asimov]

I am saying the fact we refrain from choosing x at point t we have free will. The fact that God knows we will refrain doesn't negate us exorcising that free will. It just means He knows us that much more because God knows we will refrain.

 

Exorcising?

 

What the hell are you talking about? This is a fucking hypothetical situation, based on two qualities.

 

Free Will and Omniscience.

 

We CAN'T refrain from choosing x at point t, that's the point!

 

 

And if we do refrain from choosing x at point t, this indicates that a fact of the past "that God knows we will choose x at point t" is wrong, thus negating his omniscience. Since that is impossible, your statement is completely irrelevant.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Exorcising?

 

What the hell are you talking about? This is a fucking hypothetical situation, based on two qualities.

 

Free Will and Omniscience.

 

We CAN'T refrain from choosing x at point t, that's the point!

 

And if we do refrain from choosing x at point t, this indicates that a fact of the past "that God knows we will choose x at point t" is wrong, thus negating his omniscience. Since that is impossible, your statement is completely irrelevant.

 

We can refrain from choosing x at point t, that is the point. God has factored into His knowledge or omniscience our refrainment and all choices and all paths we take.

 

Quit confining God to because you say God knows we will choose x at point t that we can't refrain. God knows that we will refrain so we can exorcise that free will. All exorcising of our free will has been taken into consideration of Gods omniscience.

[Asimov]

We can refrain from choosing x at point t, that is the point. God has factored into His knowledge or omniscience our refrainment and all choices and all paths we take.

 

Dude, you have not shown how it is possible that we can refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

You can't factor in things when you know everything. That's like saying God is acquiring new knowledge. That is a fallacy.

 

Quit confining God to because you say God knows we will choose x at point t that we can't refrain. God knows that we will refrain so we can exorcise that free will. All exorcising of our free will has been taken into consideration of Gods omniscience.

 

Well **** ***, quit dismissing out of hand my statement because you don't like it.

 

If God knew we would refrain then it was a fact of the past that God knew we would refrain and we can't refrain from refraining! Thus there is no free will!

 

You're degenerating into a cycle of stupidity, address the issue itself instead of trying to avoid it.

 

edit: removed language so as not to hurt subby's feelings.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Dude, you have not shown how it is possible that we can refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

You can't factor in things when you know everything. That's like saying God is acquiring new knowledge. That is a fallacy.

 

Make x God and the point now. You are refraining from accepting x now, therefore exorcising free will.

 

I am not saying that God is aquiring knowledge, He already knew all things for eternity.

 

Well fuck you, quit dismissing out of hand my statement because you don't like it.

 

If God knew we would refrain then it was a fact of the past that God knew we would refrain and we can't refrain from refraining! Thus there is no free will!

 

You're degenerating into a cycle of stupidity, address the issue itself instead of trying to avoid it.

 

How is it because God knows we will refrain we don't have free will? You don't need to refrain from refraining because God knew you would refrain.