A Christian's inerrancy challenge

[white_raven23]

 

BRAAAAAAAIIIIINNNSS!!

 

*sniffs at Zero*

 

NO BRAAAAIIIIINNNSS!

 

*living dead shuffles away*

 

 

[Skankboy]

Wait, so because God knows your ultimate choice in every matter in life, you don't have free will?

 

Wow Sub, it only took about 4 pages, but yes, that's exactly what everyone has been trying to tell you. You seem to have a definition of free will and predistination of your very own. One that isn't supported by any dictionary or theological summation I've ever seen. I'd be very interested to find out where your version comes from.

 

I'd also like to go back to a previous point though, that I don't believe's been answered. Where in the bible does it say that angels have free will? An actual passage would be preferred, or you can quote a theologian if that would be easier for you. Either way, you keep making this assurtion without actually ever explaining where you get it from.

 

Thanks,

[jrmarlin]

Wait, so because God knows your ultimate choice in every matter in life, you don't have free will?

 

Wow Sub, it only took about 4 pages, but yes, that's exactly what everyone has been trying to tell you. You seem to have a definition of free will and predistination of your very own. One that isn't supported by any dictionary or theological summation I've ever seen. I'd be very interested to find out where your version comes from.

 

I'd also like to go back to a previous point though, that I don't believe's been answered. Where in the bible does it say that angels have free will? An actual passage would be preferred, or you can quote a theologian if that would be easier for you. Either way, you keep making this assurtion without actually ever explaining where you get it from.

 

Thanks,

I can't believe that you are surprised that it took Sub four pages to figure it out! I have been laughing since this whole thing started. Hilarious. Sub is too twisted to be on television.

[white_raven23]

Sub_Zero I really wish you were a faster learner. I thought you might have learned an important lesson from the other thread.....that some of us have enough respect for HONESTY and TRUTH that we aren't lazy enough to allow your BLATANT LIES to slide.

 

POST # 164 Snipped for brevity.

Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

Then YOUR Post#168

Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

You just said we were created a perfect world. Yes God gave us free will.

Right THERE......in red you claim Eponymic admitted we were created in a "perfect world". I sure don't see that.....are you looking at Magic Eye pictures while you type?

 

 

But here is where you LIE.

 

POST 182

(snipped for brevity....and cleaned up because you are too retarded to use the quote functions properly)

 

E: Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

SUB: You just said we were created a perfect world. Yes God gave us free will .

 

Okay boy,

I'm calling you out.

WHERE IN MY ABOVE STATEMENT DID I AFFIRM THAT WE WERE CREATED IN A PERFECT WORLD?

 

I said we were never in this perfect environment. And I stated several times in other posts that I don't believe in the Bible at all, therefore I'm only offering up arguments against your position.

 

You are once again A LIAR!

 

Or, at the very least, are creating things out of thin air to suit your whim.

 

I quoted myself actually.

 

See? You claim you are quoting yourself..... but if you used the quote functions correctly, or understand that when we are trying to reference over 10 quotes in one post, we use italics or other colors to reference someone so we don't get hash-like gobbeldygook when we post!

Eponymic was using this method to point out the LIE that his statement affirms your fantasyland that he admitted to the creation of a perfect world.

 

And you just tried to skirt the issue by "accidentally" misunderstanding his post as being your own words.

 

We are not stupid, nor are we lazy.

 

Is there something in your DNA that handicaps you from admitting to mistakes? Are you under the mistaken impression that you are god and therefore infalllible?

[jrmarlin]

Sub_Zero I really wish you were a faster learner. I thought you might have learned an important lesson from the other thread.....that some of us have enough respect for HONESTY and TRUTH that we aren't lazy enough to allow your BLATANT LIES to slide.

What do you expect? Most Xians are lazy or they wouldn't believe everything their ministers and pastors tell them. They would think for themselves. Thinking is hard fucking work, WR. There is no way around it. And the xians I have met are basically lazy. They don't have the wherewithall to really read the bible -- and when they do, they suddenly become ex-xians. Go figure!

 

Sub: You're not fooling anyone with this self-righteous act. I understand your need to placate your ego but why don't you just be honest and above board about it. It is really fun to open up the forum page and see your name listed under like 20 topics but your posts are meaningless and nonsensical. They're not based on fact or even good fiction. You're a dime store joke. Please, up your worth and start being real or else, seek life elsewhere.

[quicksand]

Thanks for your replies Sub-Xerox.

 

Comments:

 

No, God is all powerful, always. All powerful means nothing is not done outside of His will.

Oh boy. So its god wills you want to argue instead, even though I was making the observation as to what exactly omnipotence actually means and includes, which - of course you'd rather red herring into a discussion about God's will.

 

You know that having a will alone is an admission by that God has limits. In order to have a will, one must know what it is like to not have a will. Guess what, I can. Therefore, I can do one more thing then your god can. ha ha. Meaning, your god is not omnipotent.

 

Oh and if nothing is done outside his will, then all is within his will. Appeals to freewill change nothing. All you can do is special plead that something is outside his will while refuting your assertion at the same time. Can't have it both ways dude.

 

You apparently don't know what God is.

Hmm.. and you do? For you to state that you know what a God' is would mean that you'd have to have superior knowledge of the nature of God. God is said to be more complex than his creation. Therefore your knowledge of God would have to be more complex and therefore superior than even God has of Himself for you to make any statements as to what God actually is.

 

Prove your superior knowledge.

Did you know that man made it possible for those things to exist because of their disregard of Gods will?

Sunday school apologetics here.

 

Again, you contradict yourself with "nothing is not done outside of His will."

 

So blame god for sin etc etc etc etc

 

Did you know that mankind killed the Son of God? Their own creator's Son.

You mean God himself as Jesus. You are a monotheist are you not? Or do you believe in a least two separate Gods? And don't give me a modal argument either.

 

Anyway, so Jesus is dead and he didn't triumph over sin. Gotcha. Not much of a victory was it?

 

Again, angels and humans both were created with free will.

So I am an angel then. Cool.

 

Think I will impregnate some virgins.

 

You obviously don't know that we have free will.

Ugh. your thick. I stated that "A & E were created pefect. God is said to be perfect. So when a Xian says that what A & E did was sin by chewing on a red delicious (I'm a granny-smith fan myself), it's not so much of a stretch to say that god can sin as well."

 

Freewill has not a dot to do with a discussion of freewill. Whether I am aware that I have freewill or I am machine would make no difference.

 

The task for you is to resolve that since A & E was perfect from the beginning, they can only necessarily make subsequent perfect decisions. Therefore, being tempted by a talking snake was a perfect decision.

 

Watch for the skin stuck in your teeth for that one.

 

It is not a threat.

You incite "punishment" by God first. I called you out on it Sub-Xerox.

[crazy-tiger]

Dude, are you even paying attention.

 

The why isn't important. The how isn't important. What's important is that because it is a fact that God knows I will choose x at some point in time in the future that I cannot choose y at that same point in time.

 

You wouldn't choose y because you were going to choose x. God doesn't say you will choose x, you have free will and ultimately you will arrive at x because God knew what you would choose, etc, etc...

 

By God knowing that you would choose x is because He knows what YOU will do and what YOU will resist to, etc, etc to arrive at x.

Wait, wait, wait... God knows ahead of time what our choices will be?

For God to do this, the choices must already have been made AND be unchangable... and that's every single choice that will ever be made, even for people who haven't even been born yet.

 

 

You mind telling me just how the hell that is freewill??

[♦ ficino ♦]

Oh, Zeus, Hera and Athena. Nivek, may I borrow one of your guns so I can shoot myself?

 

I guess sub_zero is never going to produce a scripture that proves that creatures have free will. It's OK for sub to talk about free will. Clearly, our demand that he point to a verse that proclaims "free will" is too much for him.

 

But that's OK. It's all stuff about an imaginary friend, after all, isn't it?

 

The Bible asserts that God causes all things. God hates some of his creatures. Esau, for example. Is there a verse that proves this? Yes, but I won't quote it; that's your research, sub.

 

People do actions and they go to hell. What's the first cause in the chain of causes? God's will.

 

Don't say it's the person's free will that sends him/her to hell until you quote a verse that proves that creatures have free will, sub. If you quote it, I'll shut up. If you can't, then you shut up.

 

Enough with these mind games. Life is short.

[Anakin]

You obviously don't know that we have free will.

You obviously don't know that there is no free will in your bible. Re-read: Romans 8 & 9,

Ephesians 1, 2 Thes 2, 2 Tim 1, Jude 1, Exodus, Joshua, and Deuteronomy. All either

mention predestination or people who had no control over their actions (aka: no free will).

Asimov has been trying to show you outside the bible how an all knowing god x's out

free will. You're either not listening or ignoring his points. So here it is. Your own bible

contradicts you. I guarantee that you will ignore it or try to explain it away. Either what the

bible says is true or it isn't. Ficino has asked a few times for you to provide scripture

that proves free will. How about it?

[Eponymic]

Exactly how we view it, thank you for describing it. For God however it was known for eternity.

 

Why am I not surprised that the way you view it is self-contradictory. There's no way possible to have free will & all-knowingness at the same time. It's like trying to multiply something by zero. The second you try to have one of these at the same time as the other, they negate each other & one or both disappear.

 

They are pre-planned by your choices.

 

See above.

 

E: Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

SUB: You just said we were created a perfect world. Yes God gave us free will .

 

I quoted myself actually.

 

White Raven already hammered you on this. How can you have the outright blatant gaul to say that when I QUOTED WHAT BOTH OF US SAID IN MY THREAD. I've even left the same quote & response above. Now... can you actually say that you're wrong?

 

Maybe you should really figure out who you are. I'm going to tell it like it is. Hey maybe you're a very nice, caring person who does many good things for people. But we sure wouldn't know it. Because what you're showing to us is a childishly stubborn, lying, inconsiderate, remorselessly prideful, fear filled, unattentive man who uses nothing but grade school explanations to explain his reasoning. You don't debate, use facts or much proper reasoning, and often skip over issues tweaking them to what you feel you can deal with rather than the issue at hand. You have shown us a person who displays no humility, little decency, very little kindness or consideration, and absolutely no willingness to admit when he's wrong.

 

Maybe you should study a few other things than the Bible.

 

Like I said before, perhaps you're a better person elsewhere. But from what I see here, it sure isn't teaching you to be a very good person. And aren't you supposed to be striving to be the best person you can be in all arenas as a Christian?

[Asimov]

You wouldn't choose y because you were going to choose x. God doesn't say you will choose x, you have free will and ultimately you will arrive at x because God knew what you would choose, etc, etc...

 

 

No, dude...it has nothing to do with wouldn't.

 

Listen, and listen very carefully...enough with your inane comments that are irrelevant to the case.

 

God knows everything. He cannot be wrong, there is no uncertainty in what we will choose.

God knows that I will choose x at point t.

 

If God cannot be wrong, then I cannot refrain from choosing x. Get it? I have to choose x, even if I know and don't want to....this is because it is a fact that I will choose x at point t.

 

Because of this, I have no free will.

 

And really, your statements are highly contradictory.

[Guest sub_zer0]

You wouldn't choose y because you were going to choose x. God doesn't say you will choose x, you have free will and ultimately you will arrive at x because God knew what you would choose, etc, etc...

 

 

No, dude...it has nothing to do with wouldn't.

 

Listen, and listen very carefully...enough with your inane comments that are irrelevant to the case.

 

God knows everything. He cannot be wrong, there is no uncertainty in what we will choose.

God knows that I will choose x at point t.

 

If God cannot be wrong, then I cannot refrain from choosing x. Get it? I have to choose x, even if I know and don't want to....this is because it is a fact that I will choose x at point t.

 

Because of this, I have no free will.

 

And really, your statements are highly contradictory.

 

True, unless God knew you would refrain from choosing x.

 

Hmm.. and you do? For you to state that you know what a God' is would mean that you'd have to have superior knowledge of the nature of God. God is said to be more complex than his creation. Therefore your knowledge of God would have to be more complex and therefore superior than even God has of Himself for you to make any statements as to what God actually is.

 

Prove your superior knowledge.

 

lol. Read the Bible and you will find out.

 

1 John 4:8

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

Sunday school apologetics here.

 

Again, you contradict yourself with "nothing is not done outside of His will."

 

So blame god for sin etc etc etc etc

 

God's will included the choice not to accept His.

 

You mean God himself as Jesus. You are a monotheist are you not? Or do you believe in a least two separate Gods? And don't give me a modal argument either.

 

Anyway, so Jesus is dead and he didn't triumph over sin. Gotcha. Not much of a victory was it?

 

Wrong, I am not a monotheist. How little is known about Christianity and the Bible is shocking sometimes.

 

So I am an angel then. Cool.

 

Think I will impregnate some virgins.

 

I hope you didn't mean that...

 

Ugh. your thick. I stated that "A & E were created pefect. God is said to be perfect. So when a Xian says that what A & E did was sin by chewing on a red delicious (I'm a granny-smith fan myself), it's not so much of a stretch to say that god can sin as well."

 

Wrong. God is perfect and seperate from His creation in that regard. His will is always not to sin, ours is to either accept His will or to sin.

 

The task for you is to resolve that since A & E was perfect from the beginning, they can only necessarily make subsequent perfect decisions. Therefore, being tempted by a talking snake was a perfect decision.

 

They weren't perfect.

 

Why am I not surprised that the way you view it is self-contradictory. There's no way possible to have free will & all-knowingness at the same time. It's like trying to multiply something by zero. The second you try to have one of these at the same time as the other, they negate each other & one or both disappear.

 

Unless free will is taken into account.

 

See above.

 

Ditto!

 

White Raven already hammered you on this. How can you have the outright blatant gaul to say that when I QUOTED WHAT BOTH OF US SAID IN MY THREAD. I've even left the same quote & response above. Now... can you actually say that you're wrong?

 

Sure, I was wrong in saying I quoted myself.

 

Maybe you should really figure out who you are. I'm going to tell it like it is. Hey maybe you're a very nice, caring person who does many good things for people. But we sure wouldn't know it. Because what you're showing to us is a childishly stubborn, lying, inconsiderate, remorselessly prideful, fear filled, unattentive man who uses nothing but grade school explanations to explain his reasoning. You don't debate, use facts or much proper reasoning, and often skip over issues tweaking them to what you feel you can deal with rather than the issue at hand. You have shown us a person who displays no humility, little decency, very little kindness or consideration, and absolutely no willingness to admit when he's wrong.

 

How do you know I haven't figured myself out yet, I have shared my testimony and faith to everybody on this forum!

[thunderbolt]

Ugh. your thick. I stated that "A & E were created pefect. God is said to be perfect. So when a Xian says that what A & E did was sin by chewing on a red delicious (I'm a granny-smith fan myself), it's not so much of a stretch to say that god can sin as well."

 

Wrong. God is perfect and seperate from His creation in that regard. His will is always not to sin, ours is to either accept His will or to sin.

Nope, you are wrong, your Bible says so:

 

If God doesn’t stop evil, than he is the biggest sinner according to James:

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

(James 4:17)

[Guest sub_zer0]

You obviously don't know that there is no free will in your bible. Re-read: Romans 8 & 9,

Ephesians 1, 2 Thes 2, 2 Tim 1, Jude 1, Exodus, Joshua, and Deuteronomy. All either

mention predestination or people who had no control over their actions (aka: no free will).

Asimov has been trying to show you outside the bible how an all knowing god x's out

free will. You're either not listening or ignoring his points. So here it is. Your own bible

contradicts you. I guarantee that you will ignore it or try to explain it away. Either what the

bible says is true or it isn't. Ficino has asked a few times for you to provide scripture

that proves free will. How about it?

 

I like how you say, I will try to explain it away. That is like I know that grasshopper is going to jump. It's obvious I will have to explain some passages as you think predestination means everybody and I don't think you know the specifics of those verses.

 

Having said that, Epheisians 1:

Are you one of the "sons through Jesus Christ"? Because if you are you would know that YOU are predestined, not everybody, but those who accept His will are predestined to submit to it, or become a son through Jesus Christ.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:

Again speaking of the "brethren" in Christ. Not everybody.

 

Jude 1:

Speaking about the ones who do not accept Gods will, or accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Indeed if you have the saved determined (while taking into account free choice), you are bound to have some that are not saved. For God, it wouldn't be hard to know exactly who will be saved and who will not, don't you think

 

Nope, you are wrong, your Bible says so:

 

If God doesn’t stop evil, than he is the biggest sinner according to James:

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

(James 4:17)

 

17Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

 

I am wrong because we know not to sin? Still, God is seperate from His creation (the ones who sin).

[thunderbolt]

I am wrong because we know not to sin? Still, God is seperate from His creation (the ones who sin).

Did you actually think through that one, or are you just ratting off the first thing that pops into your mind?

 

If he is separate from his Creation, then his not omnipresent, and most definitely not all in all as Paul liked to call it. Therefore he is not God.

 

 

Watching Zero attempt "critical reasoning" is like watching someone chew the flesh off their own fingers.

Holy cow, you tell me! It's like watching paint dry.

[Guest sub_zer0]

I am wrong because we know not to sin? Still, God is seperate from His creation (the ones who sin).

Did you actually think through that one, or are you just ratting off the first thing that pops into your mind?

 

If he is separate from his Creation, then his not omnipresent, and most definitely not all in all as Paul liked to call it.

 

You do not need to be included with sin if you are omnipresent. Especially when the sinful know of you. Ultimately when all comes to an end, you will all have full recognition of God is and that you were supposed to have but was blocked out by your sin.

 

You are forgetting the many times I have said that Hell's punishment is the fact that God's presence isn't there.

[thunderbolt]

Subby, all I can say is this: You have made a god after your own image. Good luck with it!

[Guest sub_zer0]

Subby, all I can say is this: You have made a god after your own image. Good luck with it!

 

How isn't that in line with Biblical teaching?

[white_raven23]

Subby, all I can say is this: You have made a god after your own image. Good luck with it!

 

How isn't that in line with Biblical teaching?

 

 

 

He.......admits it!

 

He actually admits this!

 

Everyone!!!! LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!

 

How's THAT for the meekness of Christians?!

 

Subby....congratulations....you just successfully did MORE to damage christianity in the eyes of any questioning christian who comes here, than ANYTHING any of us would have ever said.

 

Holy box of hair!

 

I wish we could frame that admission of ego and pride!

 

Why don't we have a Hall of Shame?

 

WOW!!

[Guest sub_zer0]

Subby, all I can say is this: You have made a god after your own image. Good luck with it!

 

How isn't that in line with Biblical teaching?

 

 

 

He.......admits it!

 

He actually admits this!

 

Everyone!!!! LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!

 

How's THAT for the meekness of Christians?!

 

Subby....congratulations....you just successfully did MORE to damage christianity in the eyes of any questioning christian who comes here, than ANYTHING any of us would have ever said.

 

Holy box of hair!

 

I wish we could frame that admission of ego and pride!

 

Why don't we have a Hall of Shame?

 

WOW!!

 

Calm down... I was referring to what I said as that is what he was referring to...

 

"You do not need to be included with sin if you are omnipresent. Especially when the sinful know of you. Ultimately when all comes to an end, you will all have full recognition of God is and that you were supposed to have but was blocked out by your sin.

 

You are forgetting the many times I have said that Hell's punishment is the fact that God's presence isn't there."

 

That is what I said and what I was referring to when I said, "How isn't that in line with Biblical teaching."

[thunderbolt]

That is what I said and what I was referring to when I said, "How isn't that in line with Biblical teaching."

No, you are a lair, stop backpedaling.

 

My comment had nothing to do with that statement; it had to do with your overall approach in twisting your God arguments the way it suits you, instead of actually listening to what people are trying to tell you. You have convicted yourself.

 

In a moment of weakness you revealed exactly who you are. Thanks, there is no point in further discussing God or the Bible with you, because you have sub_zero integrity, and have admitted to it too.

[Guest sub_zer0]

That is what I said and what I was referring to when I said, "How isn't that in line with Biblical teaching."

No, you are a lair, stop backpedaling.

 

My comment had nothing to do with that statement; it had to do with your overall approach in twisting your God arguments the way it suits you, instead of actually listening to what people are trying to tell you. You have convicted yourself.

 

In a moment of weakness you revealed exactly who you are. Thanks, there is no point in further discussing God or the Bible with you, because you have sub_zero integrity, and have admitted to it too.

 

OK, well I was still referencing it.

 

You see, I am not here to be changed by any of you, by all means I am listening and understanding what you are all saying, although it is hard as I am only one person. But I am here for a different reason, I am here to change all of you by sharing and defending the Word of God as best as I can.

 

Pick one thing I have presented and how I have twisted it to fit my taste and my needs instead of representing what what Christian theology based on Biblical teaching is all about.

[Eponymic]

Why am I not surprised that the way you view it is self-contradictory. There's no way possible to have free will & all-knowingness at the same time. It's like trying to multiply something by zero. The second you try to have one of these at the same time as the other, they negate each other & one or both disappear.

 

Unless free will is taken into account.

 

And there you go again. It makes me wonder if you're reading & considering what I'm saying before responding. Free will is taken into account, I'm talking about free will vs. all-knowingness man!

 

What the heck.

 

Sure, I was wrong in saying I quoted myself.

 

So why the run around then? Why do we have to goad & prod the truth out of you? It shouldn't be this hard to get you to play straight forward & honest with us. That's half the reason people are treating you with such ire and ferocity here.

 

How do you know I haven't figured myself out yet, I have shared my testimony and faith to everybody on this forum!

 

And here's most of the other half of why you get chided & berated all the time.

I lay out how prideful & otherwise inconsiderate you are acting on this board, and you come back with a prideful, defensive remark.

 

I'm sorry if I'm being harshly assertive with you, but it's hard to figure out how to say things to you when you keep giving us rudimentary responses like this.

 

I would love to be able to play nice & happy with you. You just make that exceptionally hard when you don't give me any redeeming qualities to respond kindly to.

[Guest sub_zer0]

And there you go again. It makes me wonder if you're reading & considering what I'm saying before responding. Free will is taken into account, I'm talking about free will vs. all-knowingness man!

 

What the heck.

 

What about it, if free will is taken into account in the knowledge of God, you still have free will.

 

So why the run around then? Why do we have to goad & prod the truth out of you? It shouldn't be this hard to get you to play straight forward & honest with us. That's half the reason people are treating you with such ire and ferocity here.

 

Like I said, I was wrong when I said that, why do you need to poke and prod after I have said what was needed?

 

And here's most of the other half of why you get chided & berated all the time.

I lay out how prideful & otherwise inconsiderate you are acting on this board, and you come back with a prideful, defensive remark.

 

I'm sorry if I'm being harshly assertive with you, but it's hard to figure out how to say things to you when you keep giving us rudimentary responses like this.

 

I would love to be able to play nice & happy with you. You just make that exceptionally hard when you don't give me any redeeming qualities to respond kindly to.

 

What was prideful about what I said?

[Asimov]

True, unless God knew you would refrain from choosing x.

 

Dude, you are still missing the point!!!!

 

ANY CHOICE WE MAKE, GOD KNOWS WHAT WE WILL DO. BECAUSE OF THIS, THERE IS NO FREE WILL!!!