A Christian's inerrancy challenge

[Kuroikaze]

perhaps it would be better to look at this from the perspective of omnipotence instead of omniscience.

 

We clearly can not have free will if god is omnipotent. If God has all the power, how much power can we have?

 

Enough to either choose Him or not. Which is what free will is all about.

 

then god is not omnipotent

[jrmarlin]

Where is this so-called "free will" you've blathering about? Apparently we only have a "free will" to live according to our predistinated course.

 

If this is what you believe, it's no wonder you sound like a lunatic when you post.

Mr. G., Sub is obviously busted in his (or her) own ruse here. Predestination and Free Will are two separate ends of a spectrum; therefore, one cannot interchange with other -- yet, Sub, you have the audacity to come onto an Inerrancy Challenge thread and basically, try to straddle the fence between the two.

 

Sub, your continuous contradictions are really starting to sound like the famous story, A Thousand And One Nights. If you don't know the story (or haven't read it, which is probably more the case,) it is where there is a multitude of stories, which began with a story within a story within a story within a story. As the stories deepen they become more twisted, fantastical and bizarre.

 

Why would you preach and berate others if it's all predestined? Do you realize how utterly nuts you sound? Sub, don't you have something better to do with your time other than chasing your own tail?

 

Perhaps, if you dedicated as much time reading the bible as you do sitting on this site displaying this obvious verbal diarrhea ( ), you might realize that what everyone on this site has been screaming at you is correct. At that point, please feel free to come back and apologize profusely to each and everyone of us for having to endure your verbal pollution.

 

As for the lunatic statement, Mr. G. I would say Lunatic Fringe is more like it! (And yes, that's the name of a band. I know!)

[white_raven23]

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

 

If you believe this then STOP claiming we have free will! STOP! NOW!

 

You cannot have it both ways!

 

Predestination and free will cannot exist together. They cancel each other out.

 

We either have free will.

 

OR

 

We are predestined.

 

NOT BOTH!!!!

 

It is completely impossible to have such completely opposite concepts existing together! And DON'T try saying "through god all things are possible...." we've heard the parrot-speak before, and all it is is a poor excuse to NOT THINK. The Bible gives you permission to be ignorant, and claims god will bless you for it.

 

Well that's all nice and shiny, and you and your fellow christian zombie-sheep friends can believe in that with all your little zombie hearts. Go ahead.

 

But you can't come in here and expect us to believe any part of it. Because we won't, and we don't, and absolutely NOTHING you say is going to change that. EVER.

 

We say you CANNOT have both predestination and free will BOTH. It is either one or the other in entirety. Period.

 

Go ahead.......give us your grammatically inbred version of "Nuh-Uuuuh".

 

It's all we expect of you.

 

So go on.

[Eponymic]

There is such a thing as SELF-EDITING (re-reading our own shit.....in case you want to play ignorant of what I'm talking about), which most of us do all the damn time. We have enough respect for our own words to make sure they mean what we want them to mean.

 

Which is yet another example that shows you don't respect us.

 

Eponymic is wrong to be as nice as he is, because he knows just as well as I do that you have every opportunity to decide that your posts convey what you want to say....BEFORE you hit that "post" button!

 

Suck my big black cock biznitch

 

I'm not wrong to be nice. I just forgot about that preview option, and I wasn't thinking about pre-editing at the time. I was just intrigued that the webmaster took his editing abilities away. I guess so he can't retract things after he's dug himself into a hole. So my mistake for forgetting about the preview option. And yes, he should take more time and respect to pre-edit his material properly- especially since you can't edit afterwards.

[white_raven23]

I'm not wrong to be nice. I just forgot about that preview option, and I wasn't thinking about pre-editing at the time. I was just intrigued that the webmaster took his editing abilities away. I guess so he can't retract things after he's dug himself into a hole. So my mistake for forgetting about the preview option. And yes, he should take more time and respect to pre-edit his material properly- especially since you can't edit afterwards.

 

Exactly! Subby's so called "persecution" is the webmaster by action forcing Sub to be RESPONSIBLE about the content of his own posts!

 

One man's persecution, is another's virtual parental lesson!

 

Suck my big black cock biznitch

 

Suck it yourself white boy!

*sigh*

 

I alternate between envying your sweet patience with others......and wanting to throttle you for wasting patience on zombie-sheep.

 

It is both your strength and your weakness. Such balance is ultimately worthy of my respect....even if it occasionally drives me nuts.

 

My bro.

[Eponymic]

Wow, how many people have sworn at me today? You count and re-think your post.

 

You know, it's very sad really. Here I am, the only person who is currently being nice to you in any way, and you come back with this rude response.

 

You have to take the fact that you've already lost all of your respect points around here into account. That's why people are swearing. And keeping a condescending, inconsiderate attitude is no better, and could be construed as worse in many people's eyes.

 

I'm attempting to stay as kind & civil as possible, yet I still don't see you giving me any respect.

 

I'm sorry you don't like how I argue.

 

It's not a matter of how you argue, it's general conduct. You are now getting treated like dirt because your attitude has shown people around here that you have no respect for them.

 

I asked it indirectly before, but I'll ask it directly now.

Do you recognize and accept that you have been disrespectful here?

 

I certainly recognize that we have become very disrespectful now. But that is a reactionary result of you not showing us any respect. Remember, you came into our house, so you have to start with respect in order to receive respect. And as you've gone on you're getting less & less.

 

What was so damaging about Christianity?

 

The short answer is that it makes people dysfunctional, causes them more often than not to be negative, condescending, very judgemental, one-dimensional people. It's hard to answer that one really well because there's so much to it.

 

I guess the easy & crass way to say it is that it fucks people up, mentally & emotionally.

 

p.s. by arguing of course I mean, politely debating, something that seems to be long gone on this forum.

 

I get that. But politely debating to me means that you have to show respect to your opponents. You haven't done that. And that's why the politeness is all but long gone.

 

I'm still trying to be polite, but when you come back with these curt answers that still don't show any respect, it's trying even my patience.

[Skankboy]

You know, it's very sad really. Here I am, the only person who is currently being nice to you in any way, and you come back with this rude response.

Take heart, at least he's responding! Apparently I was so polite he didn't even bother to read it...

[white_raven23]

It's the last refuge of a mind that is resisting real thought.

 

Instead of thinking about what people are saying.....concentrate on volitile language and direct attempts to offend! It's time for Tunnel-vision persecution! Where every criticism is hoarded and cherished and made much of......and posts of nonjudgmental content are not even SEEN. They just happen to be entirely "missed" because they don't fit the "these jerks hate me for my beliefs" mental mold.

[Eponymic]

Take heart, at least he's responding! Apparently I was so polite he didn't even bother to read it...

 

And I do appreciate that. I'm just hoping to get some kind of measure of humanity & civility here.

 

Especially considering this is the colosseum I think everyone should keep a bit more discretion than they've been showing. You may want to slam him, but we are disobeying our website's rules by being rude & tactless in the colosseum. Save that stuff for the Den.

[jrmarlin]

Take heart, at least he's responding! Apparently I was so polite he didn't even bother to read it...

 

And I do appreciate that. I'm just hoping to get some kind of measure of humanity & civility here.

 

Especially considering this is the colosseum I think everyone should keep a bit more discretion than they've been showing. You may want to slam him, but we are disobeying our website's rules by being rude & tactless in the colosseum. Save that stuff for the Den.

Eponymic, don't feel bad. You have been a pillar of sociality here... You have been very kind and considerate, not to mention eloquent! You should feel good about that as you have shown how to be respectful through example as opposed to just talking about it! You rock!

[crazy-tiger]

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

You know... I did ask earlier...

You wouldn't choose y because you were going to choose x. God doesn't say you will choose x, you have free will and ultimately you will arrive at x because God knew what you would choose, etc, etc...

 

By God knowing that you would choose x is because He knows what YOU will do and what YOU will resist to, etc, etc to arrive at x.

Wait, wait, wait... God knows ahead of time what our choices will be?

For God to do this, the choices must already have been made AND be unchangable... and that's every single choice that will ever be made, even for people who haven't even been born yet.

 

 

You mind telling me just how the hell that is freewill??

Are you now trying to say that free will is the ability to do that which is already predestined to happen?

 

 

Free will = being able to make a choice that is PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN

Predestined = having to make a PREDETERMINED CHOICE

 

Complete opposites... and you cannot have both.

 

-extra thought-

 

I've spent much of this thread groaning at subby's inability to understand just how stupid he sounds... it's got so bad that Kitty thinks I'm in pain.

[Asimov]

I've opted out of the Colosseum discussion here because of my inability to control my bad behaviour.

[Asuryan]

I've opted out of the Colosseum discussion here because of my inability to control my bad behaviour.

 

 

 

You've been amazing the whole time. You tried your best to help him use his head and learn some logic. You actually *talked* with him as if he was an intelligent, rational human being, expecting a logical debate.

 

 

 

The only problem is that he didn't want to talk, debate or even think rationally.

 

He came here to change us, he said this himself. He came here to bring us to the glory of god and convert us back to christianity.

 

Sharing your conclusions, or even agreeing with you, weren't useful to him for this reconversion purposes. So he didn't even try to. He doesn't want to be changed by your words (and if he started using his head enough to acknowledge your point, I think something in his head *would* change, at least about omniscience and free will), he wants to change *us*. He doesn't want to doubt either god's omniscience or free will.

 

 

 

There was nothing you could do, Asimov. You would've had the same chances if he had just covered his eyes with his hands and shouted LALALA I CANT READ YOU!.

 

 

 

 

 

...What was he saying some posts ago?

Exorcising free will?

...well, yes, Christianity often does that, doesn't it...?

[Rachelness]

The more I read of Sub_zer0's posts, the more I'm conviced that, a) he's completely insane, sits at his computer all day with a number 2 pencil sticking out of each nostril, has a few cats nailed to his dartboard, and whacks himself over the head with a KJV several times a day, OR he's yanking our collective chains. Although I'd like to believe option b, I feel that option a is an absolute certainty.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Are you now trying to say that free will is the ability to do that which is already predestined to happen?

 

No, free will for the probably 5th time is the ability to follow your will rather than Gods.

 

Free will = being able to make a choice that is PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN

Predestined = having to make a PREDETERMINED CHOICE

 

Complete opposites... and you cannot have both.

 

Free will = able to make a choice not based on Gods will.

Predestined = Ultimately your choie will be for or against Gods will. Heaven or Hell.

[Guest sub_zer0]

According to you Jesus(Son)+Father+HS=God. God is our creator, therefore Jesus is also our creator. Therefore we killed his human incarnation on earth. Right. (or as the bible says, "the Jews killed the lord")

 

Where does it say in the Bible that the Jews killed the Lord?

 

According to the Bible, God = Father, Son, Holy Spirit, each unique and each relying on the other.

 

God the Father created the universe, the Son saves it and the Holy Spirit sustains if anything.

 

So God is playing Chess with us

 

No, we choose and God knows the choice so He knows it, nothing more.

 

So if wants to develop our character against God, he will form a test in a such a way that he will make it happen?

 

I never said that, God judges sin, which is the result of our rebellion of His will. Through that judgment we are tested by life and thus reveal our character about God to ourselves.

 

On the that is certainly not what the bible says. God is putting the various characters to see whether they will choose him or not, there is nothing in the particular verses which says that God wanted to develop their character.

 

Never said there was.

 

Will you stop changing your stance.

 

That decision is based upon your choice however, the choice isn't based upon the decision of God.

 

We all have a choice, but some were predestined to do His will and some weren't,

 

If your fate is predetermined then that elimates the idea of choice.

 

Wrong, because free will is not doing God's will, thus you predetermine yourself as well, God just knows the outcome so it is predetermined, but by your choices to either do Gods will or your own it becomes predetermined.

 

Hello, he knew and decided before hand what will do. Once he decides, you can't go against it.

 

He only knew based on our choices.

 

That rationalization works both ways of course… God also only created the "possibility" of good but didn't actually create anything good.

 

They were created good before they chose to do bad.

 

Yep, they were created perfect until they chose to do bad.

 

So he creates the possibility of Evil but not the possibilty of Good?

 

The good was there from the start, we chose evil over good.

 

Since the Bible states that God created all things, not simply good things or some things, evil must emerge from the same being which created everything else.

 

Indeed it has, because God created Lucifer with free will. But God did not choose evil.

 

Isa 45:7 in the KJV states quite clearly that God creates evil. I am aware that NASB and NIV editors saw to it that the word evil was replaced by the less sinister sounding "calamity". Not suprisingly the verse in Gen is not translated as "tree of Good and Calamity", but as "tree of Good and Evil".

 

Apparently the KJV was falsely translated. So why would God let his word be incorrectly translated and circulated for hundreds of years?.

 

It is of little consequence. Most people who read the Bible for what it is (not skeptics) will think it is trivial and give it little attention. Seriously though, the KJV was the first Bible printed, I think you are forgetting that, regardless if a word isn't in the proper form.

 

Apart from Is 45:7, there are numerous other verses where God takes full responsibility of sending "evil" to the people.

 

In Isaiah 45:7 it is calamity.

 

If it is calamity in Is 45:7, then why does it not say "Knowledge of Good and Calamity" in Genesis?

 

And please also answer the highlghted section.

 

Evil is seperate from calamity.

 

Calamity is the tests of character for God that come about in the life we chose.

 

Calamity = An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster:

 

Now the tree of evil in the garden brought the calamity. That which was eaten by Adam and Eve opened there eyes to evil (not doing God's will) thus inviting calamity from God (or judgment of that sin).

 

so once again you are contradicting yourself

Everybody is predestined to either accept Him or not.

 

Again, free will according to God is not doing His will.

 

If you do His will you are predestined to be with Him. If you do not do His will you are predestined not to be with Him.

 

It is only known by God not predestined, it becomes a predestination to God because it is based off of your will.

[Antlerman]

It is of little consequence. Most people who read the Bible for what it is (not skeptics) will think it is trivial and give it little attention. Seriously though, the KJV was the first Bible printed, I think you are forgetting that, regardless if a word isn't in the proper form.

Sub? Your knowledge of the Bible is inaccurate. As far as acutally printed Bibles goes, the KJV falls way down on the list. See below:

 

1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written.

The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin

.

 

1516 AD: Erasmus Produces a Greek/Latin Parallel New Testament.

 

1522 AD: Martin Luther's German New Testament.

 

1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language.

 

1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha).

 

1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books).

 

1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books).

 

1560 AD: The Geneva Bible Printed; The First English Language Bible to add Numbered Verses to Each Chapter (80 Books).

 

1568 AD: The Bishops Bible Printed; The Bible of which the King James was a Revision (80 Books).

 

1609 AD: The Douay Old Testament is added to the Rheims New Testament (of 1582) Making the First Complete English Catholic Bible; Translated from the Latin Vulgate (80 Books).

 

1611 AD:

The King James Bible Printed

; Originally with All 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving Only 66 Books.

 

So you see how far down the list the KJV is? Explain this error like you do all your others. Is it possible you have some cracks in your knowlege? What else do you assume true Sub??? (I know the answer to that ).

[crazy-tiger]

Are you now trying to say that free will is the ability to do that which is already predestined to happen?

 

No, free will for the probably 5th time is the ability to follow your will rather than Gods.

No, free will is the ability to MAKE A CHOICE THAT HASN'T ALREADY BEEN MADE.

Free will = being able to make a choice that is PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN

Predestined = having to make a PREDETERMINED CHOICE

 

Complete opposites... and you cannot have both.

 

Free will = able to make a choice not based on Gods will.

Predestined = Ultimately your choie will be for or against Gods will. Heaven or Hell.

Predestine...

 

1. (of God) destine (someone) for a particular fate or purpose.

2. determine (an outcome) in advance by divine will or fate.

 

OH LOOK! THAT STOPS YOU FROM BEING ABLE TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE BECAUSE GOD'S WILL HAS ALREADY DECIDED WHAT YOU WILL DO!

 

Do you understand yet? Predestined means THE CHOICE HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE AND YOU CANNOT CHANGE IT!

 

 

 

Here's a real problem for you... God creates some people in the knowledge that they will never believe in him... free will means they can make the choice TO believe in him.

If that happens, then GOD WAS WRONG!

 

Do you understand yet? It means that God DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WOULD DO and that these people have DEFIED GOD'S WILL!

 

 

Is God all-knowing? Then there's no free will.

Is God all-powerful? Then no-one can defy him.

 

You are arguing that God is neither all-knowing NOR all-powerful... the irony is staggering.

[Eponymic]

It is only known by God not predestined, it becomes a predestination to God because it is based off of your will.

 

You're either just not acknowledging our standpoint, or are just not getting it.

 

Here's the best example I can think of:

 

God is all-knowing. He says to one of his angels, "I know exactly where that man is going. He's going to use his free will to go left at this stop sign."

 

At the stop sign, the man turns right.

 

So because the man used his free will to turn right, God is now a liar. And that's a prime reason why you can't have free will & predestination (an all-knowing God) at the same time.

[dibby]

It seems crazy to me. How can god know a decision that hasn't been made yet?

And Sub, you say that free will is going against god's will. Is our free will god given? If our free will is given of god,then freedom must be an attribute of god. If freedom is an attribute of god then why would he need to threaten us if we use it? If we only have free will under the threat of punishment if we use it, then such a freedom is no freedom at all, surely?

 

It's like a man holding a gun to your head who says, 'Chose what you won,t....but be careful to chose my will otherwise you are for it!' Freedom is just that.....FREEDOM. The consequences of our choices come from the actions themselves, we need no threat of hell.

[SkepticOfBible]

According to you Jesus(Son)+Father+HS=God. God is our creator, therefore Jesus is also our creator. Therefore we killed his human incarnation on earth. Right. (or as the bible says, "the Jews killed the lord

 

Where does it say in the Bible that the Jews killed the Lord?

 

You should really start reading your own bible

 

Matt 27.25:

“In reply all the people said, ‘Let his blood be on us and on our children!’”

 

Acts 2.36:

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ.”

 

1 Thess 2.14-15:

“(14) For you became imitators, brothers and sisters, of God’s churches in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, because you too suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they in fact did from the Jews, (15) who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and persecuted us severely. They are displeasing to God and are opposed to all people…”

 

John 5:15-18 (King James Version)

15The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

16And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

 

New Testament Anti-Judaism

 

According to the Bible, God = Father, Son, Holy Spirit, each unique and each relying on the other.

 

God the Father created the universe, the Son saves it and the Holy Spirit sustains if anything.

 

Ok, I showed you anti semitic verses now let's hear your biblical evidence, show me a verse from the bible which says God = Father, Son, HS (You may use the NT for this)

 

And from the OT - The Father Created the universe, the Son Saves it and Holy Spirit

 

FYI, your version of the trinity sounds very much like the Hindu Trinity, and is quite unconventianal

 

Brahma = Creator

 

Vishnu= Preserver

 

Shiva=Destroyer

 

So just to make sure I get it right, the Son doesn't create anything right?

 

And are they co-equal?

 

So if wants to develop our character against God, he will form a test in a such a way that he will make it happen?

I never said that, God judges sin, which is the result of our rebellion of His will. Through that judgment we are tested by life and thus reveal our character about God to ourselves.

 

Which, in your words, leads to either against God or for him.

 

So testing happens because of God's judgement???? I thought it was the other way round.

 

So God is playing Chess with us

No, we choose and God knows the choice so He knows it, nothing more.

 

And thus he will ensure that we make those choices through the test that he sets up. Otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient

 

On the that is certainly not what the bible says. God is putting the various characters to see whether they will choose him or not, there is nothing in the particular verses which says that God wanted to develop their character

 

Never said there was.

 

Then your assertion is UNBIBLICAL one. Please don't put forward man made doctrines.

 

Wrong, because free will is not doing God's will, thus you predetermine yourself as well, God just knows the outcome so it is predetermined, but by your choices to either do Gods will or your own it becomes predetermined.

 

Ok, maybe I am framing not statement right. I see CT does a much job in that, so I won't hassle you about freewill vs predestination

 

Hello, he knew and decided before hand what will do. Once he decides, you can't go against it

 

He only knew based on our choices.

 

That includes future choices which we will make. So right now God has already judged us. So there is no need of Judgement day. Judgement day happened right at the moment of creation.

 

That rationalization works both ways of course… God also only created the "possibility" of good but didn't actually create anything good.

 

They were created good before they chose to do bad

........

Yep, they were created perfect until they chose to do bad.

 

MWC made a very good rebuttal here(Post 10). So I won't repeat it.

 

So he creates the possibility of Evil but not the possibilty of Good?

The good was there from the start, we chose evil over good.

 

So if we choose evil, where did this evil come from? afterall evil would have to be there for us to choose?

 

Since the Bible states that God created all things, not simply good things or some things, evil must emerge from the same being which created everything else

 

Indeed it has,

 

Which is God?

 

because God created Lucifer with free will. But God did not choose evil.

 

Off course not, he created it. Show me a verse from the OT where Satan is directly and independently responsible for evil.

 

I am not interested in the NT theology on Satan because obviously they picked it from the Pagan mythology.

 

Apparently the KJV was falsely translated. So why would God let his word be incorrectly translated and circulated for hundreds of years

 

It is of little consequence. Most people who read the Bible for what it is (not skeptics) will think it is trivial and give it little attention. Seriously though, the KJV was the first Bible printed, I think you are forgetting that, regardless if a word isn't in the proper form.

 

It certainly is not a trivial issue for the KJV advocates(which includes famous creationist Kent Hovind). Obviously for them it is important issue and the HS is telling them that KJV is the accurate translation, and is essential for their salvation

 

But you would claim that the HS is telling you otherwise?(I hope you have asked the HS about this issue, right)

 

So tell me which are the true christians, the KJV advocates or you?

 

Second of all, bad translation can cause bad exegesis/theology. So does you God allows bad theology to roam around for like 500 years? Are these christians with wrong theology in hell?

 

Apart from Is 45:7, there are numerous other verses where God takes full responsibility of sending "evil" to the people.

Evil is seperate from calamity.

Calamity is the tests of character for God that come about in the life we chose.

Calamity = An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster:

Now the tree of evil in the garden brought the calamity.

 

And for $ 1000, which omniscient being placed this tree, knowing that his creation will choose it?

 

And second of all the Is 45:7 isn't even talking about Calaminty = Test. And by your own defination the result of Calamity/Event is negative one, which we we normally associate with Evil.

 

That which was eaten by Adam and Eve opened there eyes to evil (not doing God's will)

 

And their eyes were open to Good(doing God's will) too. Remember the Tree of GOOD AND EVIL, not just Tree of EVIL

 

So obviously before they had no idea about what was God's Will? So how exactly were they perfect?

 

thus inviting calamity from God (or judgment of that sin).

 

Which was placed by God.........Apparently God never told A & E that he will kick them out.

[Checkmate]

Oh joy. There's a KJV-Onlyist in the house, huh? Why do you Xians even bother? If you can't even agree on WHICH "Bible" is the correct one, then how can you presume to argue and preach about anything from the Bible? It's just a book of ideas. That's all.

 

KJV-onlyism is cultic. (But then so is Christianity, so this is no BIG surprise.) Even other Christians don't believe that the KJV is the One True Bible. (So why should unbelievers be impressed when you quote it?) In fact, the KJV translators didn't believe they were writing the One True Bible.

 

Read this KJV-Onlyism: Biblical or Cultic? if you dare. An expose from your OWN people. And they are not alone in this criticism. (Which explains why you have dozens of different Babble versions.)

 

You Xians REALLY should consider getting your own house in order, before you try and preach righteousness to unbelievers. Present a united front at least. You know (or do you?) what "Jesus" said about a house divided.

[Ouroboros]

Are you now trying to say that free will is the ability to do that which is already predestined to happen?

 

No, free will for the probably 5th time is the ability to follow your will rather than Gods.

 

Free will = being able to make a choice that is PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN

Predestined = having to make a PREDETERMINED CHOICE

 

Complete opposites... and you cannot have both.

 

Free will = able to make a choice not based on Gods will.

Predestined = Ultimately your choie will be for or against Gods will. Heaven or Hell.

 

Subby, listen, predestination follows same rules as mathematics does, like a number series that is predictable and can be known. If you want to think about predestination, think about it like the number Pi. Each action or event in the world would be represented by a number, and we could calculate which number will come and hence what will happen.

 

Now free will is more like a random number generator. You can never, and should not be able to predict the next number, because then it wouldn't be random.

 

Free Will and Predetermination are the complete opposites. End of story. Unless you want to explain how a known outcome (=determined) can be undetermined.

[Skankboy]

So he creates the possibility of Evil but not the possibilty of Good?

The good was there from the start, we chose evil over good.

 

So if we choose evil, where did this evil come from? afterall evil would have to be there for us to choose?

 

For me, this exchange highlights the problem of thinking of "evil" as an objective item. To "choose" there must be something to choose between. Thus Skeptic is quite right to say both must have existed before. Sub's argument assumes that "good" and "evil" both exist in a very real (ie objective) manner. For his worldview to stay intact, both of these must exist and yet his "perfect" god cannot be the originator. There is a hole here Sub. If "good" and "evil" are objective, then according to your theology, god must have created both as he is the originator of all things. If he didn't, then something was created outside of him and he isn't the perfect being you describe (as perfect is defined as "lacking nothing, complete in and of itself").

 

So which is it Sub? Of course, in my opinion, "good", "evil" and "god" are all man-made concepts, so in my worldview there is no conflict...

 

IMOHO,

[SkepticOfBible]

Oh joy. There's a KJV-Onlyist in the house, huh? Why do you Xians even bother? If you can't even agree on WHICH "Bible" is the correct one, then how can you presume to argue and preach about anything from the Bible? It's just a book of ideas. That's all.

 

KJV-onlyism is cultic. (But then so is Christianity, so this is no BIG surprise.) Even other Christians don't believe that the KJV is the One True Bible. (So why should unbelievers be impressed when you quote it?) In fact, the KJV translators didn't believe they were writing the One True Bible.

 

Read this KJV-Onlyism: Biblical or Cultic? if you dare. An expose from your OWN people. And they are not alone in this criticism. (Which explains why you have dozens of different Babble versions.)

 

You Xians REALLY should consider getting your own house in order, before you try and preach righteousness to unbelievers. Present a united front at least. You know (or do you?) what "Jesus" said about a house divided.

 

Sorry Grinch, he is not a KJV advocate. It was I who raised the point that it's not only Skeptics who are interested in accurate translation, but also believers.

 

But the last point about the united point is spot on