A Christian's inerrancy challenge

[Eponymic]

 

OK, well I was still referencing it.

 

Man oh man. See, you were even wrong here.

 

If you were referencing it, then you bloody well should have included it in your post. You quoted a completely different phrase- with no indicated reference to what you said it was actually about. And if you don't have the wits to make sure you're quoting the correct material, then that's a whole other problem.

 

Do you see what we are seeing yet?

 

This isn't a one time occurance, you've done this several times now where you've had to backpeddle and fix your mistakes rather than either admitting you were wrong, or correcting the problem. Instead you dig a bigger hole for yourself.

 

Please, if you truly don't know how to use the board (which you should as long as you've been posting here now), then figure it out quickly or tuck your tail & run, because we're on to you, and we're not going to let you off the hook for your blatant mistakes.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Dude, you are still missing the point!!!!

 

ANY CHOICE WE MAKE, GOD KNOWS WHAT WE WILL DO. BECAUSE OF THIS, THERE IS NO FREE WILL!!!

 

But His will is based on our choices or our free will. Meaning He takes into account what each one of us will choose based on our own personality, etc, etc...

 

Man oh man. See, you were even wrong here.

 

If you were referencing it, then you bloody well should have included it in your post. You quoted a completely different phrase- with no indicated reference to what you said it was actually about. And if you don't have the wits to make sure you're quoting the correct material, then that's a whole other problem.

 

Do you see what we are seeing yet?

 

This isn't a one time occurance, you've done this several times now where you've had to backpeddle and fix your mistakes rather than either admitting you were wrong, or correcting the problem. Instead you dig a bigger hole for yourself.

 

Please, if you truly don't know how to use the board (which you should as long as you've been posting here now), then figure it out quickly or tuck your tail & run, because we're on to you, and we're not going to let you off the hook for your blatant mistakes.

 

You contradicted yourself.

 

"This isn't a one time occurance, you've done this several times now where you've had to backpeddle and fix your mistakes rather than either admitting you were wrong, or correcting the problem. "

 

First I have had to fix my mistakes rather than correcting the problem? What's the difference?

 

I'm guilty, I make mistakes... lol

[Asimov]

But His will is based on our choices or our free will. Meaning He takes into account what each one of us will choose based on our own personality, etc, etc...

 

 

We're not talking about God's Will. We're talking about his knowledge. Stay on topic.

 

We haven't made any future choices yet. God knows what those future choices will be, we can't change those choices therefore there is no choice.

 

Look at the fucking definition of free will that I posted at the beginning:

 

Free Will - The ability to refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

x = your choice.

t = point in time you will choose x.

 

You cannot refrain from making choice x at point t. No Free Will. Period.

[Eponymic]

What about it, if free will is taken into account in the knowledge of God, you still have free will.

 

It's still skipping my point. That's what the heck.

I've said it time and again and explained it out (as have others). There's no way you can have both an all-knowing God and free will at the same time. One eliminates the other.

 

Like I said, I was wrong when I said that, why do you need to poke and prod after I have said what was needed?

 

Because, you didn't how any humility with it. Your post read more like, "so I made a mistake, big deal."

 

Phrasing is a delicate thing, and especially online you have to be careful how you word things because it's the calling card of how everyone perceives you.

 

What was prideful about what I said?

 

How do you know I haven't figured myself out yet, I have shared my testimony and faith to everybody on this forum!

 

Saying, "how doy you know I haven't figured myself out yet" is a defensive retort that isn't really responding to what I was saying but is merely showing an emotional fear that you have to look strong our you won't be holding your faith (or something to that regards).

 

Sharing your testimony doesn't mean jack. It in fact states how cool you think you are for coming on here and doing something you think is daring or strong or whatever. It's a boast.

 

I questioned how you were showing us that you weren't being very goodly or considerate, and it's prideful and inconsiderate to just ignore everything I was saying and just address the first half of the first line.

[Guest sub_zer0]

But His will is based on our choices or our free will. Meaning He takes into account what each one of us will choose based on our own personality, etc, etc...

 

We're not talking about God's Will. We're talking about his knowledge. Stay on topic.

 

We haven't made any future choices yet. God knows what those future choices will be, we can't change those choices therefore there is no choice.

 

There is choice, the ultimate choice you would choose which is what His knowledge is. What I meant was knowledge not will.

 

Look at the fucking definition of free will that I posted at the beginning:

 

Free Will - The ability to refrain from choosing x at point t.

 

x = your choice.

t = point in time you will choose x.

 

You cannot refrain from making choice x at point t. No Free Will. Period.

 

Free will or the ability to refrain from choosing x at point t is something that can be done if that is what you do. God already knew you were gonna do it is all.

 

 

How do you know I haven't figured myself out yet, I have shared my testimony and faith to everybody on this forum!

 

Saying, "how doy you know I haven't figured myself out yet" is a defensive retort that isn't really responding to what I was saying but is merely showing an emotional fear that you have to look strong our you won't be holding your faith (or something to that regards).

 

Sharing your testimony doesn't mean jack. It in fact states how cool you think you are for coming on here and doing something you think is daring or strong or whatever. It's a boast.

 

How ridiculous, now I'm too cool for you guys, lol. The thought never crossed my mind. And in fact I was asked to share those things.

 

I questioned how you were showing us that you weren't being very goodly or considerate, and it's prideful and inconsiderate to just ignore everything I was saying and just address the first half of the first line.

 

It's prideful to think I have to address everything you say.

 

After all, there are like 6 other people asking and posting paragraphs worth of material.

[Eponymic]

You contradicted yourself.

 

"This isn't a one time occurance, you've done this several times now where you've had to backpeddle and fix your mistakes rather than either admitting you were wrong, or correcting the problem. "

 

First I have had to fix my mistakes rather than correcting the problem? What's the difference?

 

I'm guilty, I make mistakes... lol

 

Boy oh boy sonny Sub.

 

If you don't know the difference between an admittance of guilt and taking action to correct a problem, then you should go back to school.

 

Sure there's some overlap there, and I probably could have phrased that a bit better to clarify it properly.

 

You could say that admitting you were wrong corrects the problem, sure. But I'm referring to actually taking the time to edit your post (before or after you've posted an error), and actually correcting what you messed up. As compared to actually telling all of us that you messed up and made a mistake in phrasing, quoting, or otherwise. Sure they reach the same ends, but it's different methodology and not a contradiction.

[Guest sub_zer0]

You could say that admitting you were wrong corrects the problem, sure. But I'm referring to actually taking the time to edit your post (before or after you've posted an error), and actually correcting what you messed up. As compared to actually telling all of us that you messed up and made a mistake in phrasing, quoting, or otherwise. Sure they reach the same ends, but it's different methodology and not a contradiction.

 

Edit my posts huh? Well I'll be you can do that here?

 

I could until the "webmaster" banned me for a while for absolutely no reason. Along with that banning was sufficient privelages taken away, I can't look at profiles, I can't start a topic and what do you know, I can't edit my posts either.

[Asimov]

There is choice, the ultimate choice you would choose which is what His knowledge is. What I meant was knowledge not will.

 

You are making absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

 

There isn't choice if you can't not choose something God knows you will choose.

 

Free will or the ability to refrain from choosing x at point t is something that can be done if that is what you do. God already knew you were gonna do it is all.

 

Listen, fuckhead.

 

If God knows you are going to choose x, you have to choose x.

 

If God knows you are going to choose something else, you have to choose that something.

 

You have no choice in the matter.

 

 

Jesus fucking Christ....

[Guest sub_zer0]

Who's problem or mistake was it again?

[Eponymic]

How ridiculous, now I'm too cool for you guys, lol. The thought never crossed my mind. And in fact I was asked to share those things.

 

Perhaps that wasn't the best phrasing, but I'm going pretty fast here right now.

Yes, initially you were asked to share those things. But bringing that back up here when it's irrelevant is just boasting. That's the main point of that.

 

It's prideful to think I have to address everything you say.

 

After all, there are like 6 other people asking and posting paragraphs worth of material.

 

I'm not asking you to respond to everything I say, you've often skipped over major sections and I'm fine with it. I'm talking about how you jumped on half of half of a thought & took it out of context of the whole point.

[Guest sub_zer0]

You are making absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

 

There isn't choice if you can't not choose something God knows you will choose.

 

If you weren't going to choose it then God's knowledge would be that.

 

Listen, fuckhead.

 

If God knows you are going to choose x, you have to choose x.

 

If God knows you are going to choose something else, you have to choose that something.

 

You have no choice in the matter.

 

Jesus fucking Christ....

 

God's knowledge is your choices.

[Eponymic]

Edit my posts huh? Well I'll be you can do that here?

 

I could until the "webmaster" banned me for a while for absolutely no reason. Along with that banning was sufficient privelages taken away, I can't look at profiles, I can't start a topic and what do you know, I can't edit my posts either.

 

Funky. Good to know, eh.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Edit my posts huh? Well I'll be you can do that here?

 

I could until the "webmaster" banned me for a while for absolutely no reason. Along with that banning was sufficient privelages taken away, I can't look at profiles, I can't start a topic and what do you know, I can't edit my posts either.

 

Funky. Good to know, eh.

 

Usual, hostile treatment of a believer in Jesus Christ. It isn't the first time I have been harrassed for speaking my beliefs.

[Asimov]

If you weren't going to choose it then God's knowledge would be that.

 

I KNOW THAT, YOU SAYING IT DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY CLEARER!!! YOU AREN'T REFUTING IT, YOU'RE AGREEING WITH ME THAT WE DON'T HAVE FREE WILL.

 

God's knowledge is your choices.

 

Including future choices, which you haven't made yet and can't change.

 

Look at it like a book. The characters in the book make choices...correct? To the characters in the book, time goes on like regular time. To them, we are eternal being viewing them.

 

We can go forward and see what choices they will make.

 

Because they can't change those choices that we know they will make, the characters in the book have no free will.

 

 

Stop talking about choices....free will is not the ability to make a choice.

 

[Guest sub_zer0]

I KNOW THAT, YOU SAYING IT DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY CLEARER!!! YOU AREN'T REFUTING IT, YOU'RE AGREEING WITH ME THAT WE DON'T HAVE FREE WILL.

 

No, I am saying God's knowledge is based on our free will to choose what we want.

 

Including future choices, which you haven't made yet and can't change.

 

Because it is what you would/will choose. That is why it won't be changed.

 

Look at it like a book. The characters in the book make choices...correct? To the characters in the book, time goes on like regular time. To them, we are eternal being viewing them.

 

We can go forward and see what choices they will make.

 

Because they can't change those choices that we know they will make, the characters in the book have no free will.

 

Their free will is those choices they will make.

[Eponymic]

Usual, hostile treatment of a believer in Jesus Christ. It isn't the first time I have been harrassed for speaking my beliefs.

 

 

Dude. You wouldn't be hasseled at all if you would show a scrap of humility, some tact, and respect.

 

The reason you're not seeing much of that in response now is because everyone has lost respect for you because of your actions.

 

I want to make sure this is clear. We aren't 'harrassing' you because of your beliefs. We're harrasing you because of your own sub-standard behavior. There are Christians on this board who get the utmost respect and decency because they give a little respect & decency.

 

Make sense?

[Guest sub_zer0]

Dude. You wouldn't be hasseled at all if you would show a scrap of humility, some tact, and respect.

 

The reason you're not seeing much of that in response now is because everyone has lost respect for you because of your actions.

 

I want to make sure this is clear. We aren't 'harrassing' you because of your beliefs. We're harrasing you because of your own sub-standard behavior. There are Christians on this board who get the utmost respect and decency because they give a little respect & decency.

 

Make sense?

 

What is my sub-standard behavior?

 

Since when did words on a screen become physical actions?

[Asimov]

No, I am saying God's knowledge is based on our free will to choose what we want.

 

Idiot, if our choices are already determined before we've made them then we aren't choosing what we want.

 

Because it is what you would/will choose. That is why it won't be changed.

 

Then we aren't free to change them. If we aren't free to change them, it's not free will. Even if someone from the future came and told us not to choose it, we couldn't because the choice is already determined before we make it.

 

Their free will is those choices they will make.

 

FREE WILL IS NOT DEFINED AS MAKING CHOICES. LOOK AT THE GODDAMN DEFINITION AGAIN.

[Guest sub_zer0]

No, I am saying God's knowledge is based on our free will to choose what we want.

 

Idiot, if our choices are already determined before we've made them then we aren't choosing what we want.

 

They aren't determined. They are known by our free will.

 

Because it is what you would/will choose. That is why it won't be changed.

 

Then we aren't free to change them. If we aren't free to change them, it's not free will. Even if someone from the future came and told us not to choose it, we couldn't because the choice is already determined before we make it.

 

Right you are constrained by your own free will. Because you chose not to change them so you can't.

 

FREE WILL IS NOT DEFINED AS MAKING CHOICES. LOOK AT THE GODDAMN DEFINITION AGAIN.

 

We are talking about free will as it relates to God. Free will to God is not accepting His will, or making the choice to follow your free will.

[Asimov]

They aren't determined. They are known by our free will.

 

If the future choices are known, then they are determined.

 

Right you are constrained by your own free will. Because you chose not to change them so you can't.

 

But I haven't made the choices yet, and because I can't change them, I don't have free will.

 

We are talking about free will as it relates to God. Free will to God is not accepting His will, or making the choice to follow your free will.

 

Dishonest prick, you're shifting the goalposts.

[Guest sub_zer0]

If the future choices are known, then they are determined.

 

Right, by our choices.

 

But I haven't made the choices yet, and because I can't change them, I don't have free will.

 

You can change them, don't limit yourself.

 

Dishonest prick, you're shifting the goalposts.

 

 

I have said that from the beginning, remember that is why you tryed to take Him out of the equation

 

Somebody said to take Him out of the equation, not sure if it was you actually.

[Asimov]

Right, by our choices.

 

Our choices are determined by our choices? That's circular logic, thus a fallacy.

 

You can change them, don't limit yourself.

 

Then God doesn't know them.

 

I have said that from the beginning, remember that is why you tryed to take Him out of the equation

 

Somebody said to take Him out of the equation, not sure if it was you actually.

 

Dude, God is part of the equation, didn't you read anything I said. Everything I've talked about was God in the equation, this whole discussion (if you can call it a discussion) is about God. What you're doing is shifting the goalposts and changing the definition of free will.

 

If you're going to argue about free will, then you can't just arbitrarily argue about a separate definition from what I provided in my original syllogism.

 

That's fucking dishonest.

[Eponymic]

Dude. You wouldn't be hasseled at all if you would show a scrap of humility, some tact, and respect.

 

The reason you're not seeing much of that in response now is because everyone has lost respect for you because of your actions.

 

I want to make sure this is clear. We aren't 'harrassing' you because of your beliefs. We're harrasing you because of your own sub-standard behavior. There are Christians on this board who get the utmost respect and decency because they give a little respect & decency.

 

Make sense?

 

What is my sub-standard behavior?

 

Since when did words on a screen become physical actions?

 

Physical actions? What you talking bout subby?

I don't see where you're getting this out of what I just said.

 

Your sub-standard behavior is how you conduct yourself in your posts. And obviously by that question it isn't even phasing you how disrespectful and egocentric you've been here. At least that's the feeling I get from most of your responses in addition to this one.

 

Here's an example.

 

Just by responding to my statements above by asking a question shows me that you are not acknowledging in any way that you are behaving inappropriately. If you were acting with humility & respect you should be attaching some kind of phrase like, 'I didn't realize I was doing that.' or 'that's certainly not my intention.' or 'I'm not trying to be rude.' or the like.

 

I haven't once seen you preface anything that would show you have any humility either. An example of this is by showing some vulnerability and not being afraid to either admit you're unsure; don't know; or are just talking from pure personal opinion and accept that it's just your take on things which many other Christians, and obviously us, are going to disagree. (but in short form for that one )

 

Acknowledging the fact that we feel disrespected is a great part of showing that you actually have any respect or caring for us and our viewpoints. And if you took the time to show us in any way that you have respect, then you would quickly see that you'd start receiving respect.

 

Keep in mind, by the very action of coming onto our site, you have to realize you're dealing with many sensitive personalities that are still harboring a lot of angst & pain over the damage Christianity did to them. And by not showing any sensitivity to that is part of the reason you've quickly become maligned.

 

Hope that may change. Of course, it's going to have to start with you taking the first humble step now.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Our choices are determined by our choices? That's circular logic, thus a fallacy.

 

No, God's knowledge is determined by our choices, not the other way around.

 

Dude, God is part of the equation, didn't you read anything I said. Everything I've talked about was God in the equation, this whole discussion (if you can call it a discussion) is about God. What you're doing is shifting the goalposts and changing the definition of free will.

 

If you're going to argue about free will, then you can't just arbitrarily argue about a separate definition from what I provided in my original syllogism.

 

That's fucking dishonest.

 

No, that has been my position the whole time. You can't say it is about God and then change the definition of it to suit your argument, if it is based on God it is His view on it we take not what the dictionary says.

 

Your sub-standard behavior is how you conduct yourself in your posts. And obviously by that question it isn't even phasing you how disrespectful and egocentric you've been here. At least that's the feeling I get from most of your responses in addition to this one.

 

Wow, how many people have sworn at me today? You count and re-think your post.

 

Here's an example.

 

Just by responding to my statements above by asking a question shows me that you are not acknowledging in any way that you are behaving inappropriately. If you were acting with humility & respect you should be attaching some kind of phrase like, 'I didn't realize I was doing that.' or 'that's certainly not my intention.' or 'I'm not trying to be rude.' or the like.

 

I have consistently said what I was referencing to in posts to clear things up. I guess you just missed my apology.

 

I haven't once seen you preface anything that would show you have any humility either. An example of this is by showing some vulnerability and not being afraid to either admit you're unsure; don't know; or are just talking from pure personal opinion and accept that it's just your take on things which many other Christians, and obviously us, are going to disagree. (but in short form for that one )

 

I'm sorry you don't like how I argue.

 

Acknowledging the fact that we feel disrespected is a great part of showing that you actually have any respect or caring for us and our viewpoints. And if you took the time to show us in any way that you have respect, then you would quickly see that you'd start receiving respect.

 

Keep in mind, by the very action of coming onto our site, you have to realize you're dealing with many sensitive personalities that are still harboring a lot of angst & pain over the damage Christianity did to them. And by not showing any sensitivity to that is part of the reason you've quickly become maligned.

 

Hope that may change. Of course, it's going to have to start with you taking the first humble step now.

 

What was so damaging about Christianity?

 

 

p.s. by arguing of course I mean, politely debating, something that seems to be long gone on this forum.

[Asimov]

Our choices are determined by our choices? That's circular logic, thus a fallacy.

 

No, God's knowledge is determined by our choices, not the other way around.

 

Here's what was said:

 

If the future choices are known, then they are determined.

 

Right, by our choices.

 

If our futures choices are known, then they are determined. You said "right, by our choices".

 

That is circular.

 

We haven't made the choices yet, how can God know what our choices will be if they are not already determined?

 

No, that has been my position the whole time. You can't say it is about God and then change the definition of it to suit your argument, if it is based on God it is His view on it we take not what the dictionary says.

 

What are you talking about??

 

I never changed the fucking definition. Not once. You have been dancing around like a little prick shifting the argument and the definitions to suit your worldview.

 

I'm not using a goddamn dictionary, asshole.