A Christian's inerrancy challenge

[Asimov]

Make x God and the point now. You are refraining from accepting x now, therefore exorcising free will.

I am not saying that God is aquiring knowledge, He already knew all things for eternity.

 

If you're gonna argue about logic, then do it properly.

Spell exercising right please, it's pissing me off.

 

You're looking at it the wrong way, dude.

 

Let's say I have two choices:

x = not accept God.

y = accept God.

I have to make this choice at point t = tomorrow.

 

So, now we actually have variables that fit with what you're trying to say: God knows that I will choose to not accept him (x) tomorrow (t). Because of this, I cannot refrain from not accepting God (x) tomorrow (t).

 

IOW, Because God knows that I will choose x at t, I cannot choose y at t.

 

In order for me to be able to choose y at t, x would have to equal y....this is not the case.

 

This is what I'm saying....what you are saying is:

 

God knows that I will choose not to accept him tomorrow. Because of this, I am exercising my free will...

 

Makes absolutely no sense. The statement is a non sequiter.

 

How is it because God knows we will refrain we don't have free will? You don't need to refrain from refraining because God knew you would refrain.

 

See above example, and try to address it properly this time.

[Guest sub_zer0]

If you're gonna argue about logic, then do it properly.

Spell exercising right please, it's pissing me off.

 

You're looking at it the wrong way, dude.

 

Let's say I have two choices:

x = not accept God.

y = accept God.

I have to make this choice at point t = tomorrow.

 

So, now we actually have variables that fit with what you're trying to say: God knows that I will choose to not accept him (x) tomorrow (t). Because of this, I cannot refrain from not accepting God (x) tomorrow (t).

 

You are proving that Gods omniscience is based on our choices.

 

IOW, Because God knows that I will choose x at t, I cannot choose y at t.

 

But you were going to choose y at t anyway.

 

In order for me to be able to choose y at t, x would have to equal y....this is not the case.

 

This is what I'm saying....what you are saying is:

 

God knows that I will choose not to accept him tomorrow. Because of this, I am exercising my free will...

 

Makes absolutely no sense. The statement is a non sequiter.

 

In order for you to choose y at t, you just do it. It doesn't have to equal y.

 

What I am saying is no matter what you choose it is your free will to choose it.

 

p.s. The free choices we make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God.

[SkepticOfBible]

Exactly the will of God decrees Satan so that he is able to test us and give us a choice to either follow God or follow Satan.

 

Why does a omniscient(All knowing) god needs to test you?What result will the test produce that he doesn't know already know of?

 

Sin is never inspired by God, but by Satan. No improper census was needed to generate sin.

You're slipping headfirst on one of your own banana peels.

 

God willed that David take a census and used Satan to deliver the divine mandate which caused David to sin. Satan isn't even in the responsibility loop here.

 

God willed it, Satan delivered it, and David did it.

 

God willed that an evil act be performed via David.

 

Had David not taken the census of Levi, God would have no reason to punish Isreal.

 

But you are right in one thing, God was in control the whole time... The most probable sequence in our passages runs like this:

I am not interested in your speculation, please backup your claims with scriptural evidence

 

* Satan sees his opportunity, accuses them of wrongdoing, and wins approval to inflict David's and Israel's wrongdoing back on themselves.

No evidence for this whatsoever

 

* God, knowing that the punishment is well deserved, that the example of correction/contrition on David's part will be recorded in Scripture forever as an example, and that He will be gracious 'ahead of schedule' and reveal the site of his temple/crucifixion, agrees to turn David and Israel over to him, for this specific punishment (cf. I Cor 5.5).

* Satan, with this permission from God, moves David to begin the Census.

 

As I said before, that makes Satan a tool which God uses for his own purposes and not a rebel angel. Satan powers are limited by God, and he never once tries to usurp God's authority

 

God created angels with free will, Lucifer created evil and became Satan. The angels are a direct product of God, Satan is a direct product of Lucifer.

........

Lucifer then disobyed God, or essentially sinned, by saying I want to be in control, I don't need God. That is his creation by his own free will, Lucifer became Satan or adversary to God and all things God.

 

There is no mention of character Lucifer nor of any heavenly rebellion in the OT.

 

Show me one verse in the OT, where Satan is disobeying God

 

And it is quite clear who creates evil

 

Isa 45:7 (KJV)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

Exodus 32:14 (KJV)

14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

 

Deuteronomy 29:21 (KJV)

21And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:

29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

 

Deuteronomy 31:29 (KJV)

29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

 

1 Kings 14:10 (KJV)

Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

 

To prove that Satan is the creator of evil, you will need to present OT scriptural evidence for this.

 

For rebel angel, he certainly is quite free to roam around in heaven.

[Asimov]

You are proving that Gods omniscience is based on our choices.

 

What are you talking about? God's knowledge isn't dependant upon anything, that goes against everything about God. Are you philosophically retarded?

 

But you were going to choose y at t anyway.

 

No, I'm gonna choose x at t, because knows I'm going to choose x at t. I cannot choose y.

 

In order for you to choose y at t, you just do it. It doesn't have to equal y.

 

What I am saying is no matter what you choose it is your free will to choose it.

 

p.s. The free choices we make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God.

 

You are a fucking moron, and have no idea what you're talking about.

 

If God knows I'm gonna choose x at t, then I can't choose y. In order for that to be possible, God would have to be wrong. Since he knows everything, he can't be wrong.

[SkepticOfBible]

Sub_Zero in your debate with Asimov and others you have given two contradictory position

 

The free choices we make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God.

 

vs

 

Exactly the will of God decrees Satan so that he is able to test us and give us a choice to either follow God or follow Satan.

 

You have a paradox in here. Why does a Omnsicient(All Knowing) God needs to "test" his creation? What result would this test produce that All knowing God is unaware of?

 

Just so we are clear, here is a defination of the word "Test"

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=test

1)A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something; a trial: a test of one's eyesight; subjecting a hypothesis to a test; a test of an athlete's endurance.

2)A series of questions, problems, or physical responses designed to determine knowledge, intelligence, or ability.

3)A basis for evaluation or judgment: “A test of democratic government is how Congress and the president work together” (Haynes Johnson).

 

If you are testing someone then that means you have limited knowledge of the outcome?

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

According to the Bible:

God created Lucifer and all other angels with free will to obey Him or not.

 

I second Dan's question. Find scriptural attestation of the notion of "free will." As I recall, that phrase is not in the Bible. What the Bible does say is that God determines all events and is the author of evil - that's in Isaiah. Scripture talks about people deserving punishment, but that's a different claim than to assert that they have free will. St. Paul says in Romans that some are vessels of wrath, predestined to destruction.

 

Dear sub_zero, many people pile on these various threads, so I realize it's hard for one guy to keep up with everyone's replies. Still, you haven't proved that "free will" is asserted in the Bible. I don't know of a verse where those words are applied to creatures.

[Eponymic]

That figure you speak of is God for me, so I can't take that out of the equation. God is responsible for creating us, we are responsible for sinning against Him, or not doing His will.

 

You apparently are just unwilling to take him out. I was taking him out for the sake of an objective example, which if you are unwilling to consider, you're therefore unable to look at the contention objectively.

 

There fate isn't sealed. God bases His knowledge of the end result not on where He meant you to go, but by your choices and your actions. God never meant for anybody to go anywhere accept to where they choose to go.

 

God bases his knowledge

He BASES his knowledge. Basing your knowledge on something is NOT all-knowing.

And if his intention all along was for their choices to be part of his equation, then those choices are not free will because they are part of his pre-planned conditions.

 

The only time God means for somebody to do something is when that is have faith in Him.

 

Here you go taking all of God's responsibility away again.

 

God decrees Satan, He never allows sin. He allows Satan to influence and tempt us, just as God influences us in all other ways. We always choose to either follow our will (influenced by Satan) or God's will.

 

God's decree is allowing it. You can't take responsibility away from the source. It's as simple as that. If you decree that it's okay for Satan to influence & cause sin, then you're responsible for that sin's occurance.

 

God created a perfect world, with choice. With Satan to give them that sin, or choice of their will over God's.

 

Remember we were in a perfect enviroment, yet the temptation to do our own will was overwhelming and we sinned and sin till this day.

 

Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

Here let me clarify, God knows what you will ultimately do, that doesn't mean that you do not have free will. It means that the free will we exorcise is what creates that knowledge. He doesn't learn as we go however because He already knew.

 

Simple enough, I hope.

 

The free will creates the knowledge... that God already had? How can you create a knowledge, that is already known? See what you're saying here. You're skipping right over that whole point- that it's already known.

 

Sure it hasn't necessarily happened yet, but God already knows it's going to happen, as he planned it, pre-cognition & pre-planning supercede and make it impossible for free will to exist. You can't know what's going to happen and say that the participants have a choice in changing that outcome. I wish I knew another way to explain it to you because it's obviously not clicking yet.

[SkepticOfBible]

Sure it hasn't necessarily happened yet, but God already knows it's going to happen, as he planned it, pre-cognition & pre-planning supercede and make it impossible for free will to exist. You can't know what's going to happen and say that the participants have a choice in changing that outcome. I wish I knew another way to explain it to you because it's obviously not clicking yet.

 

To me, the only way to limit this whole problem of free-will vs Omniscience, is to have a God who has near Omniscience, ie he knows everything except how the future.

 

The best thing he can do about the future is predict it, not know it, based on the current information he has.

 

That will make sense with all the christians claim about "the lord testing the loyalty".

 

Just for my info, where does the hebrew bible(Not the NT) say that God is omniscient, specifically about his knowledge about the future?

[Eponymic]

To me, the only way to limit this whole problem of free-will vs Omniscience, is to have a God who has near Omniscience, ie he knows everything except how the future.

 

The best thing he can do about the future is predict it, not know it, based on the current information he has.

 

That will make sense with all the christians claim about "the lord testing the loyalty".

 

True. And with that, why follow a God that is so cold & heartless, if he doesn't know how it's going to come out, how do we really know he's so smart? Maybe he's a lesser God who didn't do the best job with this world and other Gods look down on him. We just don't have enough information to say with any clarity.

 

Just for my info, where does the hebrew bible(Not the NT) say that God is omniscient, specifically about his knowledge about the future?

 

Good question, I don't rightly remember that either.

[Mythra]

Good question, I don't rightly remember that either.

 

Maybe something like this verse?

 

Isaiah 46:10

 

I make known the end from the beginning,

from ancient times, what is still to come.

I say: My purpose will stand,

and I will do all that I please.

[Guest sub_zer0]

God bases his knowledge

He BASES his knowledge. Basing your knowledge on something is NOT all-knowing.

And if his intention all along was for their choices to be part of his equation, then those choices are not free will because they are part of his pre-planned conditions.

 

Basing your knowledge on whatever free will somebody chooses is all-knowing.

 

They are only pre-planned because God knew what you would choose to begin with.

 

God created a perfect world, with choice. With Satan to give them that sin, or choice of their will over God's.

 

Exactly...

 

Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

You just said we were created a perfect world. Yes God gave us free will.

 

The free will creates the knowledge... that God already had? How can you create a knowledge, that is already known? See what you're saying here. You're skipping right over that whole point- that it's already known.

 

It is only created to us. To God it has always been known.

 

Sure it hasn't necessarily happened yet, but God already knows it's going to happen, as he planned it, pre-cognition & pre-planning supercede and make it impossible for free will to exist. You can't know what's going to happen and say that the participants have a choice in changing that outcome. I wish I knew another way to explain it to you because it's obviously not clicking yet.

 

The outcome is only known by your free will and choices you make, since God ultimately knows the choice you will make it is known.

 

You are a fucking moron, and have no idea what you're talking about.

 

If God knows I'm gonna choose x at t, then I can't choose y. In order for that to be possible, God would have to be wrong. Since he knows everything, he can't be wrong.

 

Why would you choose y when you would choose x at t?

[Asimov]

You are a fucking moron, and have no idea what you're talking about.

 

If God knows I'm gonna choose x at t, then I can't choose y. In order for that to be possible, God would have to be wrong. Since he knows everything, he can't be wrong.

 

Why would you choose y when you would choose x at t?

 

Dude, are you even paying attention.

 

The why isn't important. The how isn't important. What's important is that because it is a fact that God knows I will choose x at some point in time in the future that I cannot choose y at that same point in time.

 

I can't choose y at that same point in time is because I'm already choosing x. Your inability to grasp this is disgusting.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

This is one of the most frustrating of all concepts to try to relate to a christian because it relies on pure logic and reason, something they so obviously disdain. They will always see God as having some particular quality that transcends the conundrum and somehow makes it possible for God to have foreknowledge and for us to have freewill at the same time. Seeing the problem is a breakthrough that is out of their grasp as long as to them their God can be both this AND that at the same time. He can have foreknowledge but that foreknowledge does not make things predetermined? Or that His foreknowledge is somehow completely passive and unrelated to our freewill?

 

It's a simple enough concept for people who aren't buried in an ideology at odds with reality. If God knows what will happen then it is predetermined and by every definition known to man there is no real choice or freewill involved in a predetermined event except that of whomever did the predetermining. Certainly, we humans do not have the power to predetermine anything in this sense, only God would. Whatever determining that we do, then, however real and special and free it may feel could, in reality only be an illusion. I guess that's par for the course with an entire ideology based on illusions.

[SkepticOfBible]

I guess Sub_zero is boged down with too many people, so I reckon my question about Satan will not be resolved. Maybe Sub_zero should ask some of his friends to help him out.

 

It's a simple enough concept for people who aren't buried in an ideology at odds with reality. If God knows what will happen then it is predetermined and by every definition known to man there is no real choice or freewill involved in a predetermined event except that of whomever did the predetermining.

 

 

Not only even the bible says that god "predetermines" the destiny of people. As Mythra pointed out in that verse, God clearly says "I will do all that I please", so "My purpose will stand".

 

I am also forgeting the name of the character, in which God had predetermined the fate of dude even before he was born, and also he curses his twin(or something of that nature). Can anyone remember the Guy I am talking about?

 

The NT makes the case even worse

 

Imperfect Perfection And The Free Will Fraud.

 

The "free" will claim is one of the most dishonest put forth by Christians to excuse God from making an imperfect creation.

When Christians attempt to use the "free" will ploy, they again butcher the dictionary and ignore what words mean.

The word "free" means without charge.

There is no such thing as "free" will or "free" choice if an incorrect choice is punished. Christianity plants it's foundations squarely on an ultimatum. An incorrect "free" choice lands you in hell as retribution for your failure to make the correct choice or reach a correct conclusion that a character named Jesus is your savior.

There is nothing "free" about it in any sense. It's the type of ultimatum the Mafia gives to shopkeepers when they give them the "free" will to either pay protection money to the Mafia or face the results of their "free" choice not to pay up.

The "free" will claim as advertised by Christians is bogus and a sham.

Christians would do well to read what their Bible says before making such dishonest claims about the Bible God giving man "free" will. The New Testament shoots the "free" will claim to pieces:

 

Eph 1:4-5,11

According as he(God) hath chosen us(believers) in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom also we(believers) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

Note from the prior verses that:

God predestines at least some people to their fate.

Predestine means to determine in advance. There is no "free" will when your fate is determined in advance by God before you were even born.

 

Everything is worked out according to His(God's) pleasure and conforms to His(God's) purpose and will.

The Bible God is the one with "free" will, not the creation. As the verses so clearly state, HIS plan, HIS pleasure, HIS purpose, HIS will.

 

The next time you hear a Christian attempt to make claims about the Bible God, always keep a dictionary and Bible handy to remind yourself how shallow and deceptive their advertising really is

 

 

Sub_zero please reconcile the following

 

1)OMNISCIENCE vs "GOD TESTING BELIEVERS THROUGH SATAN"

2)FREE WILL vs PREDESTINATION

[crazy-tiger]

Basing your knowledge on whatever free will somebody chooses is all-knowing.

 

They are only pre-planned because God knew what you would choose to begin with.

And still he insists that we have free will...

[Anakin]

I am also forgeting the name of the character, in which God had predetermined the fate of dude even before he was born, and also he curses his twin(or something of that nature). Can anyone remember the Guy I am talking about?

"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's

purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told,

"The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:11-13

[crazy-tiger]

I am also forgeting the name of the character, in which God had predetermined the fate of dude even before he was born, and also he curses his twin(or something of that nature). Can anyone remember the Guy I am talking about?

"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's

purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told,

"The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:11-13

Yes, but the older one served by choice... not because God decided it before they were born.

 

 

 

Hey Subby... even the Bible says you're wrong.

[SkepticOfBible]

I am also forgeting the name of the character, in which God had predetermined the fate of dude even before he was born, and also he curses his twin(or something of that nature). Can anyone remember the Guy I am talking about?

"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's

purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told,

"The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:11-13

 

So where is this "written" in the OT?

[Anakin]

I am also forgeting the name of the character, in which God had predetermined the fate of dude even before he was born, and also he curses his twin(or something of that nature). Can anyone remember the Guy I am talking about?

"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's

purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told,

"The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:11-13

 

So where is this "written" in the OT?

Malachi 1:2,3. It kills me when xtians get on the free will stuff. Their own bible doesn't even

support it.

[NotBlinded]

I am also forgeting the name of the character, in which God had predetermined the fate of dude even before he was born, and also he curses his twin(or something of that nature). Can anyone remember the Guy I am talking about?

"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's

purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told,

"The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:11-13

I was wanting to post on this sooner, but decided not to until I ran across a Gnostic understanding:

 

"AvreEouoria", the moral freedom to rule oneself, is virtually synonymous with 'the Gospel'." (200) (AE 95-105-98-90)

 

The question of free will surfaces in Paul's letter to the Romans, 9:10-18. "Origen indicates that this passage has become the 'locus classicus of controversy between heterodox' [which refers to Gnostics], and 'the orthodox' [interpretation of Jesus' ministry]. He [Origen] considers the basic issue to be a question of free will. " (201)

 

In RM 9:10-18, Paul states "when Rebecca had conceived …though they were not yet born, and had not done anything, good or bad, thought that God's purpose in election might remain, not from works, but from him who calls, she was told 'the elder shall serve the younger.' As it is written 'Jacob I love, but Esau I hated.'…therefore, it does not depend upon human will or effort, but upon God who shows mercy …He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens the heart of whomever He wills."

 

To the casual reader, 9:10-18 would suggest that God alone determines our relationship to others. This negates free will. But to Origen, Esau refers to the "orthodox", meaning those in Stage II and III, that lack free will. But by "heterodox", Origen refers to those in Stage IV who understand Jesus' theory of nature which, in turn, empowers them with free will.

 

Paul explains in Rm 10:10, that by believing [understanding] from the heart [mind] you are made righteous, ." which means when you understand with your mind Jesus' theory of nature, you will be a right minded, someone who Paul considers capable of expressing his or her free will.

 

In 1Cor 2:16, for example, Paul says "we [meaning the Gnostics or heterodox Christians in Stage IV] are those who have the mind of Christ." This surely gives them the power of free will.

 

In effect, if there is only one logical way to be or think, we could choose freely, but at the same time, be unable to choose between rational alternatives because the use of Plato's theory of nature limits our choices to one best answer in each category of ideas, which is no choice at all. When our world-view is based solely on Plato's theory of nature, free will must be redefined as freely looking for a predetermined answer, which cannot be free will, which is freely choosing between rational alternatives. Being without free will is demeaning because free will is the hallmark of what being fully human is about. Jesus' Christ teachings, however, makes free will the right of those who understand his theory.

 

"The acorn becomes an oak by means of automatic growth; no commitment is necessary. The kitten similarly becomes a cat on the basis of instinct. Nature and being are identical in creatures like them. But a man or a woman becomes fully human only by his or her choices. And his, or her, commitment to them." (204)

 

("Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Jn 16:33)

From here.

 

I believe they are talking about stages of consciousness when they refer to Stages. I tend to agree with the essence of this understanding. When we are ruled by our past experiences, we tend to act in a predictable manner. I, at one time, didn't believe we had any free will at all. This was not from a biblical perspective but an understanding of how we learn to react. I now understand that in order to actually be able to choose freely, we have to disassociate with our understanding of who we are based on our past experiences. I didn't think this was possible until recently.

 

Just another option to consider....maybe.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

According to the Bible:

God created Lucifer and all other angels with free will to obey Him or not.

 

I second Dan's question. Find scriptural attestation of the notion of "free will." As I recall, that phrase is not in the Bible. What the Bible does say is that God determines all events and is the author of evil - that's in Isaiah. Scripture talks about people deserving punishment, but that's a different claim than to assert that they have free will. St. Paul says in Romans that some are vessels of wrath, predestined to destruction.

 

Dear sub_zero, many people pile on these various threads, so I realize it's hard for one guy to keep up with everyone's replies. Still, you haven't proved that "free will" is asserted in the Bible. I don't know of a verse where those words are applied to creatures.

 

Still waiting.

[quicksand]

Geez, I can't resist. This has to be some of the most atrocious "explaining" I have ever seen on this board... and I am an old hand here Sub.

 

Loss of your own free will isn't a requirement for being a God that is all-knowing.

So sez you. If your God can not, then he is not omnipotent. Omnipotent includes all things that a supposed entity could do.

 

Consider this.

 

Can an omnipotent being both be, by its own conceptualized nature, all powerful and all powerless simultaneously, as said being is alleged as all-powerful? All powerful means that everything is in its power, and everything is necessarily possible Like clapping with one hand. Talking out of both sides of your mouth. Like existing and not existing. Like being dead and alive. Can your your omnipotent being do this Zero? He he.

 

Chew on that.

 

You are forgetting that things can be done in a Godly manner.

This means nothing. Then anything God does is godly. By this assertion, you stand for genocide of people, of children, etc because your God does it.

 

You and your ilk hold yourself as the pinnacle of all morality.

 

This being the case, I am well justifed to reject your moral grounding as well as did Origen, bothered by all the OT violence. (And you know what happened to him, right? Persecuted by fellow Xians and his commentaries, over a 1,000 burned to cinders as he dared to reconcile the violence as metaphor.)

 

Again, God made angels, including Lucifer, all of them with free will. Lucifer then disobyed God, or essentially sinned, by saying I want to be in control, I don't need God. That is his creation by his own free will, Lucifer became Satan or adversary to God and all things God. There you have it, the beginning of choice for all, the beginning of free will.

You've just described humans. I guess were either angels or devils already living in the afterlife. So, answer me this. What's my address?

 

Funny stuff.

 

God did nothing but give them choice.

And made them (adam & eve) perfect, perfect in HIS imagine. Therefore, any choice that the pair could possibly make would be perfect as well. That being the case, sin is also perfect.

 

But hey, this is fun. A & E were created pefect. God is said to be perfect. So when a Xian says that what A & E did was sin by chewing on a red delicious (I'm a granny-smith fan myself), it's not so much of a stretch to say that god can sin as well.

 

Have fun rationalizing out of that one too, Xerox my boy.

 

God's will is the only way to be with God on earth and when you die, likewise following your free will or that of a creation of Satan on earth you will be with Satan and hell when you die.

 

Indeed going against the will of God, i.e. sinning, results in judgment or righteous punishment from God because of your blatent disregard of His word, His instructions.

Nice threats. Only the defeated threaten (even if the vechile is theology) or argue as Paul did against reason. Curiously, by using reason. The greeks of his day were right to laugh at his emotional pleading.

[Eponymic]

Basing your knowledge on whatever free will somebody chooses is all-knowing.

 

Do I have to bust out a dictionary to show you how insipid this is? Basing, is finding a basis for or to form or provide a base for something. If you are basing your knowledge on a choice, then you aren't provide the foundation you're finding a basis for how to react to the action- henceforth, you had to figure out how to react. If you're having to figure it out, you don't already know what's going on.

 

They are only pre-planned because God knew what you would choose to begin with.

 

HELLO! McFly! You just said that they were pre-planned yourself. And if they are pre-planned, you can't freely choose. End of discussion. Boy you really are lost in this aren't you? I sure hope you can realize what's going on here.

 

E: Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

SUB: You just said we were created a perfect world. Yes God gave us free will .

 

Okay boy,

I'm calling you out.

WHERE IN MY ABOVE STATEMENT DID I AFFIRM THAT WE WERE CREATED IN A PERFECT WORLD?

 

I said we were never in this perfect environment. And I stated several times in other posts that I don't believe in the Bible at all, therefore I'm only offering up arguments against your position.

 

You are once again A LIAR!

 

Or, at the very least, are creating things out of thin air to suit your whim.

 

It is only created to us. To God it has always been known.

Yeah, and since he knows it, we aren't changing it. Therefore our choices mean nothing and aren't true free will (in this world you're talking about).

 

The outcome is only known by your free will and choices you make, since God ultimately knows the choice you will make it is known.

Oyyyyyyy. You want to re-read what you just wrote and tell me what you're thinking.

You said that the outcome is known by our free will & choices. Or at least that's how it reads.

 

I'd love to comment on this, but it makes no sense as it is. Right now this statement, as it reads, is completely self-contradictory.

[white_raven23]

Watching Zero attempt "critical reasoning" is like watching someone chew the flesh off their own fingers.

 

It is horrifying.....and morbidly titillating at the same time. And everyone who has participated in the last......what.....four pages of this tedium have participated in the scenario by applying various condiments to Zero's fingers.........you've encouraged the horrid spectacle, only to become an enabler or an accomplice to the morbidity.

 

Quite the tableau for the rest of us rubberneckers.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Dude, are you even paying attention.

 

The why isn't important. The how isn't important. What's important is that because it is a fact that God knows I will choose x at some point in time in the future that I cannot choose y at that same point in time.

 

You wouldn't choose y because you were going to choose x. God doesn't say you will choose x, you have free will and ultimately you will arrive at x because God knew what you would choose, etc, etc...

 

By God knowing that you would choose x is because He knows what YOU will do and what YOU will resist to, etc, etc to arrive at x.

 

So sez you. If your God can not, then he is not omnipotent. Omnipotent includes all things that a supposed entity could do.

 

Consider this.

 

Can an omnipotent being both be, by its own conceptualized nature, all powerful and all powerless simultaneously, as said being is alleged as all-powerful? All powerful means that everything is in its power, and everything is necessarily possible Like clapping with one hand. Talking out of both sides of your mouth. Like existing and not existing. Like being dead and alive. Can your your omnipotent being do this Zero? He he.

 

Chew on that.

 

No, God is all powerful, always. All powerful means nothing is not done outside of His will.

 

This means nothing. Then anything God does is godly. By this assertion, you stand for genocide of people, of children, etc because your God does it.

 

You apparently don't know what God is. Did you know that man made it possible for those things to exist because of their disregard of Gods will?

 

You and your ilk hold yourself as the pinnacle of all morality.

 

This being the case, I am well justifed to reject your moral grounding as well as did Origen, bothered by all the OT violence. (And you know what happened to him, right? Persecuted by fellow Xians and his commentaries, over a 1,000 burned to cinders as he dared to reconcile the violence as metaphor.)

 

Did you know that mankind killed the Son of God? Their own creator's Son.

 

You've just described humans. I guess were either angels or devils already living in the afterlife. So, answer me this. What's my address?

 

Funny stuff.

 

Again, angels and humans both were created with free will.

 

And made them (adam & eve) perfect, perfect in HIS imagine. Therefore, any choice that the pair could possibly make would be perfect as well. That being the case, sin is also perfect.

 

You obviously don't know that we have free will.

 

But hey, this is fun. A & E were created pefect. God is said to be perfect. So when a Xian says that what A & E did was sin by chewing on a red delicious (I'm a granny-smith fan myself), it's not so much of a stretch to say that god can sin as well.

 

Have fun rationalizing out of that one too, Xerox my boy.

 

Do you even know what in His image means?

 

Nice threats. Only the defeated threaten (even if the vechile is theology) or argue as Paul did against reason. Curiously, by using reason. The greeks of his day were right to laugh at his emotional pleading.

 

It is not a threat.

 

The NT makes the case even worse

 

Imperfect Perfection And The Free Will Fraud.

 

The "free" will claim is one of the most dishonest put forth by Christians to excuse God from making an imperfect creation.

When Christians attempt to use the "free" will ploy, they again butcher the dictionary and ignore what words mean.

The word "free" means without charge.

There is no such thing as "free" will or "free" choice if an incorrect choice is punished. Christianity plants it's foundations squarely on an ultimatum. An incorrect "free" choice lands you in hell as retribution for your failure to make the correct choice or reach a correct conclusion that a character named Jesus is your savior.

 

That is all it takes, for you to accept God and Jesus as your Savior. The key to getting away from that incorrect choice is staring at you in the face.

 

And free will isn't defined by the dictionary in relation to God. It is specifically not doing Gods will of what He has asked us all to do to be with Him.

 

Christians would do well to read what their Bible says before making such dishonest claims about the Bible God giving man "free" will. The New Testament shoots the "free" will claim to pieces:

 

Eph 1:4-5,11

According as he(God) hath chosen us(believers) in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom also we(believers) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

Note from the prior verses that:

God predestines at least some people to their fate.

Predestine means to determine in advance. There is no "free" will when your fate is determined in advance by God before you were even born.

 

Hello! Free will is not doing Gods will. Those people that God predestines are ones who do His will, namely me. That, btw is His purpose, for us to do His will.

 

Everything is worked out according to His(God's) pleasure and conforms to His(God's) purpose and will.

 

His purpose and will is to have His creation, with the choice not to accept Him to accept Him.

 

The Bible God is the one with "free" will, not the creation. As the verses so clearly state, HIS plan, HIS pleasure, HIS purpose, HIS will.

 

Again, His purpose, His pleasure and His will is to have His creation, with the choice not to accept Him to accept Him.

 

The next time you hear a Christian attempt to make claims about the Bible God, always keep a dictionary and Bible handy to remind yourself how shallow and deceptive their advertising really is

 

Sub_zero please reconcile the following

 

1)OMNISCIENCE vs "GOD TESTING BELIEVERS THROUGH SATAN"

2)FREE WILL vs PREDESTINATION

 

Indeed bring the worldly creations into the spiritual realm of God to describe Him. You will always side with that because that is what your roots are firmly implanted in, the world and sin.

 

1) God knows how we will react when He tests us. He tests us to reveal our character and to run to Him for protection for one reason.

2) Free will is the choice not to accept God and His will, according to Biblical theology (not Biblical dictionarianism, lol), so since you are not accepting to do His will--namely accept Jesus Christ as your Savior--you are exorcising free will. For me however--one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior--have been predetermined to do so by God.

 

You see, He knows who will do His will and who will not. He is dividing His creation so that we may see the sin exposed and so that He can purify us when the time comes.

 

1a) That reason is namely to grow strong in relation to Him. God is the source of everything good so naturally it is healthy for a person to seek His face. Our character can be revealed termendously, also in the wider context it affects His creation as a whole.

 

Do I have to bust out a dictionary to show you how insipid this is? Basing, is finding a basis for or to form or provide a base for something. If you are basing your knowledge on a choice, then you aren't provide the foundation you're finding a basis for how to react to the action- henceforth, you had to figure out how to react. If you're having to figure it out, you don't already know what's going on.

 

Exactly how we view it, thank you for describing it. For God however it was known for eternity.

 

HELLO! McFly! You just said that they were pre-planned yourself. And if they are pre-planned, you can't freely choose. End of discussion. Boy you really are lost in this aren't you? I sure hope you can realize what's going on here.

 

They are pre-planned by your choices.

 

E: Sorry man. We were never in this supposed perfect environment. God created us, therefore he created everything within us, even the temptation. You can't say he created it and then say he isn't responsible for what he created.

 

SUB: You just said we were created a perfect world. Yes God gave us free will .

 

Okay boy,

I'm calling you out.

WHERE IN MY ABOVE STATEMENT DID I AFFIRM THAT WE WERE CREATED IN A PERFECT WORLD?

 

I said we were never in this perfect environment. And I stated several times in other posts that I don't believe in the Bible at all, therefore I'm only offering up arguments against your position.

 

You are once again A LIAR!

 

Or, at the very least, are creating things out of thin air to suit your whim.

 

I quoted myself actually.

 

Yeah, and since he knows it, we aren't changing it. Therefore our choices mean nothing and aren't true free will (in this world you're talking about).

 

You wouldn't change it anyway because it is your ultimate choice in the matter always. That is what God's knowledge is based on, since eternity, your choices.

 

Oyyyyyyy. You want to re-read what you just wrote and tell me what you're thinking.

You said that the outcome is known by our free will & choices. Or at least that's how it reads.

 

I'd love to comment on this, but it makes no sense as it is. Right now this statement, as it reads, is completely self-contradictory.

 

Wait, so because God knows your ultimate choice in every matter in life, you don't have free will?