Ex Christians And Social Conscience.

[Greatest I am]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

[Mriana]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

First question: Why? To actively attempt to convert would only cause them to put up their taught defences and cause a dispute.

 

Second question: no

 

 

 

[Mike D]

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors

No.

 

I actually don't have time to worry about how others live their lives. If something is working for them, good for them - just don't try and force it on me.

[Blue elephant]

If a conversation should turn that way .... well so be it. I would tell my story.

[Greatest I am]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

First question: Why? To actively attempt to convert would only cause them to put up their taught defences and cause a dispute.

 

In many cases yes. Other cases no.

If you are an Ex Christian, you may have been helped to break the indoctrination and if good for you, passing on that help to your ex friends just shows some loyalty to them.

 

If you recognize that the correction you received was good, then doing good to others shows you have a moral conscience. Right?

 

Second question: no

 

Ok.

 

If no one thought that it was a good idea to correct each other, I think we would still be in the trees.

 

Does that not make sense?

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

[No.

 

I actually don't have time to worry about how others live their lives. If something is working for them, good for them - just don't try and force it on me.

 

If you do not think that religion is damaging society then well and good but if you are turning a blind eye to damage then I do not think that is a good way to live.

 

I cannot ignore things like this--------

 

African witches and Jesus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

 

Promoting death to Gays.

 

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

 

That seems to be your choice.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

If a conversation should turn that way .... well so be it. I would tell my story.

 

This is good.

 

Please check my response above.

 

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

 

Change some of the group names in this quote and it still keeps it's wisdom.

 

Regards

DL

[freeasabird]

Deconverting some quasi religious acquaintances will do little to change the hearts and minds of terrorists and crazies.

[Guest Xtech]

I have thought about and explored the possibility of outreach. You may call it interfaith dialogue. I do gently make my non-belief position known, but as I read on this site there are many in this country who have never met a non-Christian.

 

Perhaps it is not a good thing but I hesitate to de-convert or initiate any conversation with that goal. I do seek to make myself and others visible as examples of non-believers who do good things in the community, are caring and loving people, etc. If someone wants to talk to me about their doubts about Christianity, I am open to it, in fact, I teach a class on the subject at the Unitarian church.

 

But proselytzing, I don't do that. Perhaps I should.

 

Good question, OP.

[florduh]

If I have learned anything from the conversion/deconversion experience, it's that neither I nor anyone else has all the answers. I do see that some very bad things are done in the name of Christianity, but I personally don't interact with or know any religious activists. The vast majority of those who identify as Christians already decry the religious excesses such as your examples. If I know that someone has doubts already, I will offer my experience and answer their questions. It seems to me believers must find their own way out of religion and I think that active efforts to get them to lose their faith will make them more defensive and close their eyes even more tightly. I never want to appear as a fundamentalist on a mission to gain converts to my beliefs, or lack of beliefs.

[Thackerie]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

Are YOU actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors? If so, how's it working out for you?

[Guest end3]

If I have learned anything from the conversion/deconversion experience, it's that neither I nor anyone else has all the answers. I do see that some very bad things are done in the name of Christianity, but I personally don't interact with or know any religious activists. The vast majority of those who identify as Christians already decry the religious excesses such as your examples. If I know that someone has doubts already, I will offer my experience and answer their questions. It seems to me believers must find their own way out of religion and I think that active efforts to get them to lose their faith will make them more defensive and close their eyes even more tightly. I never want to appear as a fundamentalist on a mission to gain converts to my beliefs, or lack of beliefs.

 

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences? When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

So I guess it is just an anomaly that a religion spouting faith fits our inability to see the outer reaches of our immediate decisions?

[Mriana]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

First question: Why? To actively attempt to convert would only cause them to put up their taught defences and cause a dispute.

 

In many cases yes. Other cases no.

If you are an Ex Christian, you may have been helped to break the indoctrination and if good for you, passing on that help to your ex friends just shows some loyalty to them.

 

If you recognize that the correction you received was good, then doing good to others shows you have a moral conscience. Right?

 

Second question: no

 

Ok.

 

If no one thought that it was a good idea to correct each other, I think we would still be in the trees.

 

Does that not make sense?

 

Regards

DL

 

What is the point of getting into an argument with them, esp if their minds are trained to block such info? They will open up to it when they are ready. If they ask the right questions, I will answer them, until then it's not worth triggering their wrath and watching their brains close down to the truth. It won't do any good until they are ready.

[Mriana]

If I have learned anything from the conversion/deconversion experience, it's that neither I nor anyone else has all the answers. I do see that some very bad things are done in the name of Christianity, but I personally don't interact with or know any religious activists. The vast majority of those who identify as Christians already decry the religious excesses such as your examples. If I know that someone has doubts already, I will offer my experience and answer their questions. It seems to me believers must find their own way out of religion and I think that active efforts to get them to lose their faith will make them more defensive and close their eyes even more tightly. I never want to appear as a fundamentalist on a mission to gain converts to my beliefs, or lack of beliefs.

 

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences? When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

So I guess it is just an anomaly that a religion spouting faith fits our inability to see the outer reaches of our immediate decisions?

 

Ah, this is good. We have a Xian in the conversation. Here is the scenario and questions: You tell me you are a Xian and suddenly I say to you, "Xianity is a myth." How would you react? Would you become defensive? Maybe you ask "Why do you say that?" If I start telling you that Xianity is sun worship and the crucifixion is just a metaphor for the sun etc etc and that it came from Egyptian mythology, as well as other myths, how do you think you would react as a Xian? Let's say you are a hard line Evangelical Fundamentalist Xian who is truly deluded into the myth, what sort of reaction do you suppose you would have, esp if you were not ready to hear such statements? What if you were the hard liner who did not ask for the info, how do you think you'd react?

[florduh]

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences?

I don't get to determine reality. I just accept that whatever the evidence points to is the most likely answer.

 

When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

I haven't denied that there are consequences, often unforeseen. What does this have to do with anything anyway?

[Guest end3]

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences?

I don't get to determine reality. I just accept that whatever the evidence points to is the most likely answer.

 

When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

I haven't denied that there are consequences, often unforeseen. What does this have to do with anything anyway?

 

 

By taking the position that saying nothing to influence/evangelize is basically ignoring that unforeseen consequences exist.....when in fact they do. It just seems more rational IMO, to possibly accept a myth that describes 1) faith and 2) describes or makes an attempt at unforseen consequences.

 

I find it morally irrational and hypocritical to support morality in one hand but only evangelize what we can humanly predict.

 

Obfuscate is the word that comes to mind atm.

[Guest Xtech]

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences?

I don't get to determine reality. I just accept that whatever the evidence points to is the most likely answer.

 

When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

I haven't denied that there are consequences, often unforeseen. What does this have to do with anything anyway?

 

 

By taking the position that saying nothing to influence/evangelize is basically ignoring that unforeseen consequences exist.....when in fact they do. It just seems more rational IMO, to possibly accept a myth that describes 1) faith and 2) describes or makes an attempt at unforseen consequences.

 

I find it morally irrational and hypocritical to support morality in one hand but only evangelize what we can humanly predict.

 

Obfuscate is the word that comes to mind atm.

 

 

? I dont even know what this means

 

 

[Guest end3]

Ah, this is good. We have a Xian in the conversation. Here is the scenario and questions: You tell me you are a Xian and suddenly I say to you, "Xianity is a myth." How would you react? Would you become defensive? Maybe you ask "Why do you say that?" If I start telling you that Xianity is sun worship and the crucifixion is just a metaphor for the sun etc etc and that it came from Egyptian mythology, as well as other myths, how do you think you would react as a Xian? Let's say you are a hard line Evangelical Fundamentalist Xian who is truly deluded into the myth, what sort of reaction do you suppose you would have, esp if you were not ready to hear such statements? What if you were the hard liner who did not ask for the info, how do you think you'd react?

 

 

Let me ask you this Mriana.....if you knew hell were real, would you risk being offensive in order to save another person?

[Guest end3]

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences?

I don't get to determine reality. I just accept that whatever the evidence points to is the most likely answer.

 

When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

I haven't denied that there are consequences, often unforeseen. What does this have to do with anything anyway?

 

 

By taking the position that saying nothing to influence/evangelize is basically ignoring that unforeseen consequences exist.....when in fact they do. It just seems more rational IMO, to possibly accept a myth that describes 1) faith and 2) describes or makes an attempt at unforseen consequences.

 

I find it morally irrational and hypocritical to support morality in one hand but only evangelize what we can humanly predict.

 

Obfuscate is the word that comes to mind atm.

 

 

? I dont even know what this means

 

All I am saying X is that IMO, non believers often retreat to a position of a reality they can predict....i.e. science or humanity can predict. If you look at reality, our ablility to predict is very limited. For example, if I spend 3 dollars today at my local supermarket, how will that specifically effect the rice farmer in China? By denying the things we cannot predict, we are limiting that there are in fact real consequences to spending 3 dollars in the grocery store.

 

Christianity says use these set of rules...."love thy neighbor" to not only cover the consequences of our actions, but also covers the the long term consequences of our actions, namely hell.

[Guest Xtech]

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences?

I don't get to determine reality. I just accept that whatever the evidence points to is the most likely answer.

 

When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

I haven't denied that there are consequences, often unforeseen. What does this have to do with anything anyway?

 

 

By taking the position that saying nothing to influence/evangelize is basically ignoring that unforeseen consequences exist.....when in fact they do. It just seems more rational IMO, to possibly accept a myth that describes 1) faith and 2) describes or makes an attempt at unforseen consequences.

 

I find it morally irrational and hypocritical to support morality in one hand but only evangelize what we can humanly predict.

 

Obfuscate is the word that comes to mind atm.

 

 

? I dont even know what this means

 

All I am saying X is that IMO, non believers often retreat to a position of a reality they can predict....i.e. science or humanity can predict. If you look at reality, our ablility to predict is very limited. For example, if I spend 3 dollars today at my local supermarket, how will that specifically effect the rice farmer in China? By denying the things we cannot predict, we are limiting that there are in fact real consequences to spending 3 dollars in the grocery store.

 

Christianity says use these set of rules...."love thy neighbor" to not only cover the consequences of our actions, but also covers the the long term consequences of our actions, namely hell.

 

 

Huh, still don't know what you're getting at, but non-Christians are also kind to others, consider the long term consequences of actions, love our neighbors. Did you know that? Maybe not.

 

Can I answer your question to Miriana above? If I knew there was hell yes I would do anything to save others from it. However, there is no hell. What there is, is real life and we need to deal with that, help people here in this life not some mythological non-existent other one.

 

 

 

[florduh]

...is basically ignoring that unforeseen consequences exist...

Some consequences are indeed unforeseen. Since neither you nor I can know what they might be (after all, we admit they are unforeseen), why should I choose an imaginary outcome and claim it is the inevitable result?

[Greatest I am]

Deconverting some quasi religious acquaintances will do little to change the hearts and minds of terrorists and crazies.

 

What if your quasi religious acquaintances is really a terrorist just on the brink of indecision as to what he is?

The life you save may be your own or that of your children or grand children.

Those fools have to have neighbors and acquaintances as well. In fact, I hear it is part of the way they infiltrate.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

I have thought about and explored the possibility of outreach. You may call it interfaith dialogue. I do gently make my non-belief position known, but as I read on this site there are many in this country who have never met a non-Christian.

 

Perhaps it is not a good thing but I hesitate to de-convert or initiate any conversation with that goal. I do seek to make myself and others visible as examples of non-believers who do good things in the community, are caring and loving people, etc. If someone wants to talk to me about their doubts about Christianity, I am open to it, in fact, I teach a class on the subject at the Unitarian church.

 

But proselytzing, I don't do that. Perhaps I should.

 

Good question, OP.

 

Thanks.

Here I would probably go into advising a pro active stance but your church work is likely already more than most do.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

If I have learned anything from the conversion/deconversion experience, it's that neither I nor anyone else has all the answers. I do see that some very bad things are done in the name of Christianity, but I personally don't interact with or know any religious activists. The vast majority of those who identify as Christians already decry the religious excesses such as your examples. If I know that someone has doubts already, I will offer my experience and answer their questions. It seems to me believers must find their own way out of religion and I think that active efforts to get them to lose their faith will make them more defensive and close their eyes even more tightly. I never want to appear as a fundamentalist on a mission to gain converts to my beliefs, or lack of beliefs.

 

I hear you.

 

It is damned hard to know what to tell people that will hit a nerve.

The only time I know I may be on the right track is when a theist gets really angry with me.

Hitting that nerve though does not mean he will change. It just means he has recognized that he is a fool.

 

Take a look at the face on this woman when speaking of her Bishop.

Yet she continues with a tradition she has little respect for and is there on Sunday with her little white envelope paying bastards she has no faith in so that they can keep promoting policies that she does not believe in.

All that I can say is ----Pathetic.

 

Thank God, so to speak, that the young are brighter than their parents and more of then are walking out of such.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/11/08/minnesota.catholic.gay.marriage/index.html?eref=rss_latest&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_latest+%28RSS%3A+Most+Recent%29

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

Are YOU actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors? If so, how's it working out for you?

 

No. Only because I have been away from religion for many years and have little to no contact with theists.

I never shy away from discussions though and have even made a few clergy turn to typical theistic babble.

 

I do stay active here on the net though and most all of the successes, and there are some, I learn about through P M and the odd theist who will publicly acknowledge that I have given him food for thought.

This is mostly female for some reason. Men may feel the shame more and just go away.

 

As far as I am concerned, it is the softer theist lurker who is my focus.

 

Regards

DL