Ex Christians And Social Conscience.

[Mriana]

Ah, this is good. We have a Xian in the conversation. Here is the scenario and questions: You tell me you are a Xian and suddenly I say to you, "Xianity is a myth." How would you react? Would you become defensive? Maybe you ask "Why do you say that?" If I start telling you that Xianity is sun worship and the crucifixion is just a metaphor for the sun etc etc and that it came from Egyptian mythology, as well as other myths, how do you think you would react as a Xian? Let's say you are a hard line Evangelical Fundamentalist Xian who is truly deluded into the myth, what sort of reaction do you suppose you would have, esp if you were not ready to hear such statements? What if you were the hard liner who did not ask for the info, how do you think you'd react?

 

 

Let me ask you this Mriana.....if you knew hell were real, would you risk being offensive in order to save another person?

 

You mean, if you BELIEVE hell were real. Actually, even when I was an Xian, I did not impose my beliefs on others. So if you are asking me personally, no I wouldn't, but then again, despite growing up in Fundamngelicalism, I never did feel the need to push anything on anyone, which is probably why I spent a few in the Episcopal Church before I left religion.

[Greatest I am]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

First question: Why? To actively attempt to convert would only cause them to put up their taught defences and cause a dispute.

 

In many cases yes. Other cases no.

If you are an Ex Christian, you may have been helped to break the indoctrination and if good for you, passing on that help to your ex friends just shows some loyalty to them.

 

If you recognize that the correction you received was good, then doing good to others shows you have a moral conscience. Right?

 

Second question: no

 

Ok.

 

If no one thought that it was a good idea to correct each other, I think we would still be in the trees.

 

Does that not make sense?

 

Regards

DL

 

What is the point of getting into an argument with them, esp if their minds are trained to block such info? They will open up to it when they are ready. If they ask the right questions, I will answer them, until then it's not worth triggering their wrath and watching their brains close down to the truth. It won't do any good until they are ready.

 

Darn. I was hoping you would answer my little question above.

I trust your opinion.

 

As to yours.

 

I think that it is more cumulative effect that will move them to change.

I have seen this at work a bit in posts where more than on non believer are speaking with a theist from a variety of angles.

Numbers matter sometimes. Sometimes not.

 

Over time the cumulative effect I speak of is that if a theist is often put in a position of shutting down, as you say, at some point he may wonder why he cannot convince a non theist and why he is always having to shut down his brain.

Some of course are too far gone and will think everyone else is crazy except him but anyone with even a bit of thinking ability will I think eventually question his belief. This does not mean he will drop his tradition, but it does mean that his God has a kink in his armor. I gave florduh a link just above. have a look at that theists face. How often it will take for her to give that look before she drops her tradition I can only guess but after a few times, she will have to wonder WTF she is doing.

Call me chauvinistic for this but I have less respect for her idiot, follow along husband than for her in all of this.

He is supposed to protect her and his family and is not doing the best he can. F ink wimp.

 

Regards

DL

[Mriana]

Darn. I was hoping you would answer my little question above.

I trust your opinion.

 

Well, given there are so many Xians views of that particular questions, as well as views of hell, how could anyone actually answer that question accurately. Such answer would be indicative of their particular Xian view and even as a Xian, I would point out those different views, including the views of the Bible. After a while, esp when one takes notice of this and even hearing themselves say such things, it causes even that person to take another look at Xianity, as well as religion itself. That in itself is enough. Then again, Episcopalians are often called fence sitters and those who join the church are often fence sitters themselves. However, even as a heretic, apostate, Episcopalian turned humanist, I often still take the same approach with those who want to push their Xian views on me. If they think they are right and everyone else is wrong, then so be it. Maybe one day they will figure out that religion, God, heaven, and hell were all created by humans and has evolved over the centuries. Life is too short to argue about mythology.

 

[Margee]

I understand your concern Greatest - I really do. I know the huge amount of damage. I could barley watch the 'you tubes'. But with some of this (still in 2011) fundamentalist belief system, it would be like going back 2,000 years to the ancient tribal people and telling them that you don't need to saw your child in two - to get a blessing from god!!

 

Religion really has not evolved - we have - the few of us - we see the horror, and don't quite know where to begin to tell the people that they are believing a myth!!!

 

I have a catholic lady that crawls over 10 foot snow banks here on Sunday's because she thinks and believes that if she misses mass - she will go to hell!!That's right here in our city - not Africa!!

That's how powerful this whole nightmare of religion is! You guys tell me what to do and I will follow in the parade of deconverting others. Right now - I can only talk to people who might have the same questions as I did and try to help them.

 

We had a 'spell' cast over us and they do too - I believed the bullshit for 40 years!!

[oddbird1963]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

Great questions!

 

Am I actively trying to de-convert people in my life who are Christians? No. I don't think it is practical or necessarily compassionate to try to shake somebody to the core of their world view. I'm still dealing with the pain of realizing that my life was a waste - headed in totally the wrong direction for over 30 years. I am doing salvage work, trying to look at the positives about my past, but the change has had painful consequences (as well as positive).

 

I really try to have a live and let live approach about people and their expressions of spirituality in my presence.

 

I believe in a dialogical approach. When a particular issue effects the general good (abortion, gay rights, anti-vaxers, war, politics, etc) I may speak to that issue, taking an evidence based approach. Of course I have to listen, be willing to fairly consider the other person's point of view and try to convey respect and empathy as much as possible. All that time, I realize the other person may not reciprocate the respect and consideration. Any time the other person is basing their view solely on their religion, I try to point that out stating that no one religion should get to dictate the rights of others. This is a secular society and the only just society will be secular.

 

Of course most Christians will claim that only a "Christ-honoring society" can be truly just. That, of course, leads to discussions about how Christians aren't that unique when compared to people of other religions.

 

One can be a positive force for secularism without being an evangelist for atheism. The goal is to have a two way conversation dealing with ideas while being fully cognizant of the fact that it is a fragile process in danger of breaking down at any moment. If deconversion eventually happens as a result of that or other subsequent conversations, then so be it. But the dangers of religion are addressed by presenting rational ideas based on a broader range of information.

[Greatest I am]

Darn. I was hoping you would answer my little question above.

I trust your opinion.

 

Well, given there are so many Xians views of that particular questions, as well as views of hell, how could anyone actually answer that question accurately. Such answer would be indicative of their particular Xian view and even as a Xian, I would point out those different views, including the views of the Bible. After a while, esp when one takes notice of this and even hearing themselves say such things, it causes even that person to take another look at Xianity, as well as religion itself. That in itself is enough. Then again, Episcopalians are often called fence sitters and those who join the church are often fence sitters themselves. However, even as a heretic, apostate, Episcopalian turned humanist, I often still take the same approach with those who want to push their Xian views on me. If they think they are right and everyone else is wrong, then so be it. Maybe one day they will figure out that religion, God, heaven, and hell were all created by humans and has evolved over the centuries. Life is too short to argue about mythology.

 

I see it more as we must argue about it to show those who use it to harm others, that it is myth only and it's edicts that cause harm should be ignored.

 

It is self defense in a way. Not for the defense of you and I but of our children and grandchildren that will get sucked into religion.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

I understand your concern Greatest - I really do. I know the huge amount of damage. I could barley watch the 'you tubes'. But with some of this (still in 2011) fundamentalist belief system, it would be like going back 2,000 years to the ancient tribal people and telling them that you don't need to saw your child in two - to get a blessing from god!!

 

Religion really has not evolved - we have - the few of us - we see the horror, and don't quite know where to begin to tell the people that they are believing a myth!!!

 

I have a catholic lady that crawls over 10 foot snow banks here on Sunday's because she thinks and believes that if she misses mass - she will go to hell!!That's right here in our city - not Africa!!

That's how powerful this whole nightmare of religion is! You guys tell me what to do and I will follow in the parade of deconverting others. Right now - I can only talk to people who might have the same questions as I did and try to help them.

 

We had a 'spell' cast over us and they do too - I believed the bullshit for 40 years!!

 

What to do is quite apparent to me.

Just keep talking sense to those who have cast sense and logic aside for the faith of fools, thanks to their indoctrination.

 

The butterfly effect will work and eventually, most will get it.

 

You articulate what is in your heart quite well and you should actually be able to do better than I do with my tough love approach. You are harder to attack while I give them a target.

If you have the time, just go about to the various sites where theists hang out and jump into the fray.

If you cannot enough to fill the time you wish to give to the fight, and it is a fight, then just as. I have a list.

 

Keep up the good thinking.

We will get then one mind at a time.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

[

Great questions!

 

Am I actively trying to de-convert people in my life who are Christians? No. I don't think it is practical or necessarily compassionate to try to shake somebody to the core of their world view. I'm still dealing with the pain of realizing that my life was a waste - headed in totally the wrong direction for over 30 years. I am doing salvage work, trying to look at the positives about my past, but the change has had painful consequences (as well as positive).

 

I really try to have a live and let live approach about people and their expressions of spirituality in my presence.

 

I believe in a dialogical approach. When a particular issue effects the general good (abortion, gay rights, anti-vaxers, war, politics, etc) I may speak to that issue, taking an evidence based approach. Of course I have to listen, be willing to fairly consider the other person's point of view and try to convey respect and empathy as much as possible. All that time, I realize the other person may not reciprocate the respect and consideration. Any time the other person is basing their view solely on their religion, I try to point that out stating that no one religion should get to dictate the rights of others. This is a secular society and the only just society will be secular.

 

Of course most Christians will claim that only a "Christ-honoring society" can be truly just. That, of course, leads to discussions about how Christians aren't that unique when compared to people of other religions.

 

One can be a positive force for secularism without being an evangelist for atheism. The goal is to have a two way conversation dealing with ideas while being fully cognizant of the fact that it is a fragile process in danger of breaking down at any moment. If deconversion eventually happens as a result of that or other subsequent conversations, then so be it. But the dangers of religion are addressed by presenting rational ideas based on a broader range of information.

 

Sounds like you have found a balanced approach.

Keep up the good work.

I am always impatient and would say do more of the same, but in this case, I would be out of line.

 

Regards

DL

[bornagainathiest]

I would ask why then you believe in a philosphy that has no greater consequences?

I don't get to determine reality. I just accept that whatever the evidence points to is the most likely answer.

 

When in fact, decisions have consequences. The fact that we can't see what the ramifications of our immediate decisions have on things or people removed doesn't negate that they do. So with faith, we adhere to a philosophy that a certain set of rules will result in the answers we hope for in the end.

 

I haven't denied that there are consequences, often unforeseen. What does this have to do with anything anyway?

 

 

By taking the position that saying nothing to influence/evangelize is basically ignoring that unforeseen consequences exist.....when in fact they do. It just seems more rational IMO, to possibly accept a myth that describes 1) faith and 2) describes or makes an attempt at unforseen consequences.

 

I find it morally irrational and hypocritical to support morality in one hand but only evangelize what we can humanly predict.

 

Obfuscate is the word that comes to mind atm.

 

 

? I dont even know what this means

 

All I am saying X is that IMO, non believers often retreat to a position of a reality they can predict....i.e. science or humanity can predict. If you look at reality, our ablility to predict is very limited. For example, if I spend 3 dollars today at my local supermarket, how will that specifically effect the rice farmer in China? By denying the things we cannot predict, we are limiting that there are in fact real consequences to spending 3 dollars in the grocery store.

 

Christianity says use these set of rules...."love thy neighbor" to not only cover the consequences of our actions, but also covers the the long term consequences of our actions, namely hell.

 

Not entirely correct, End.

 

You are only telling half the story here. Loving your neighbor doesn't save you (or anyone else) from Hell.

 

This set of Christian 'rules' (Loving your neighbor, included) is irrelevant without your personal decision to accept the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

You do know what G.R.A.C.E. means, right?

 

No Jesus = no salvation. Game over!

You can follow all the Christian rules you want but you won't avoid eternal hellfire by doing so.

Unless, of course, you are promoting the heretical doctrine of salvation by works.

Are you doing that, End?

 

In fact, I'd go so far to say that the false teaching of salvation by works is exactly what Satan wants potential Christian believers to accept, not Christ Himself.

That way, the Fallen One ensnares them into thinking that they can bypass the Cross and earn themselves a place in heaven on their own merit - thus wasting their lives and often encouraging others to do the same.

Who's work are you doing here, End?

 

No. Absolutely not.

Rules and rule-following do not a Christian make, even if these 'rules' come from the Bible itself.

Christians follow Christ and nothing and no one else. They do this firstly by consciously and actively deciding to accept His grace. One simple decision is all it takes. Then and only then do Christians look to the words of the Bible for guidance in their life. They avoid the fires of Hell by deciding to accept Christ's free gift of salvation, not by looking to the Bible make them more and more Christ-like. It is a person's decision that saves them, yes?

 

Are we agreed on this End?

 

(I MUST press you for an answer here, seeing as this very point also happens to be the very point of my replies to you that other thread, the one you've yet responded to. Oh and btw, a simple 'Yes I agree' is not sufficient. You must know by now that I expect a full and proper answer from you. Full and proper being that you explain what I mean in full and proper detail, indicating that even if you don't necessarily agree with it, you do understand it. Thanks in advance.)

 

So, if you are concerned about the ultimate destiny of others, what is it that you will encourage them to do?

A. Follow Christian 'rules', thereby giving them no means of avoiding the hellish consequences of their actions?

or...

B. Decide to accept Christ's gift of salvation, avoiding Hell by the making of just one decision?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

p.s.

If you aren't going to respond in the Genesis/Crucifixion thread, would you at least be so good as to say so?

You did say that were interested in my thoughts.

Hmmmm....?

[Thackerie]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

Are YOU actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors? If so, how's it working out for you?

 

No. Only because I have been away from religion for many years and have little to no contact with theists.

I never shy away from discussions though and have even made a few clergy turn to typical theistic babble.

 

I do stay active here on the net though and most all of the successes, and there are some, I learn about through P M and the odd theist who will publicly acknowledge that I have given him food for thought.

This is mostly female for some reason. Men may feel the shame more and just go away.

 

As far as I am concerned, it is the softer theist lurker who is my focus.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

You've probably also given some men some food for thought that they later acted on. But, what with being male and all, they were too embarrassed to acknowledge they had been wrong in the first place. Deconverting Fundie women don't have this problem because, through their time in the cult, they have become accustomed to being told they're wrong.

[Spectrox]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

I wouldn't go door to door and try to de-convert people even if I felt strongly about it. That's just as naff as a Jehovah's Witness coming to my door. If religious beliefs come up in the natural flow of conversation then sure I would state my case. It's probably worth taking a more long-term political view of the situation and perhaps join a campaign that you believe in, e.g. teaching creationism in RE lessons not Science lessons. That would have more effect than trying to deconvert a few old acquaintances even if you think they are spectacularly wrong.

[Greatest I am]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

Are YOU actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors? If so, how's it working out for you?

 

No. Only because I have been away from religion for many years and have little to no contact with theists.

I never shy away from discussions though and have even made a few clergy turn to typical theistic babble.

 

I do stay active here on the net though and most all of the successes, and there are some, I learn about through P M and the odd theist who will publicly acknowledge that I have given him food for thought.

This is mostly female for some reason. Men may feel the shame more and just go away.

 

As far as I am concerned, it is the softer theist lurker who is my focus.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

You've probably also given some men some food for thought that they later acted on. But, what with being male and all, they were too embarrassed to acknowledge they had been wrong in the first place. Deconverting Fundie women don't have this problem because, through their time in the cult, they have become accustomed to being told they're wrong.

 

I do not agree with your last although some may have been told that often.

By men who are not married or do not want to get laid.

 

I think that it is because, as my wife keeps telling me, women think in a more practical way.

I think in the case of women of religion, it means in a more realistic and down to earth type of way.

They seem to take, as above so below, more to mind than men do. Perhaps it is because they are better at multi-tasking than most men.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

I wouldn't go door to door and try to de-convert people even if I felt strongly about it. That's just as naff as a Jehovah's Witness coming to my door. If religious beliefs come up in the natural flow of conversation then sure I would state my case. It's probably worth taking a more long-term political view of the situation and perhaps join a campaign that you believe in, e.g. teaching creationism in RE lessons not Science lessons. That would have more effect than trying to deconvert a few old acquaintances even if you think they are spectacularly wrong.

 

Kinda passive.

I hope you would be a tad more aggressive with a J W neighbor who you see is letting his child die from want of blood.

 

I am sure you would be and just threw that in for lurkers.

 

What about the net?

Are you more assertive, I dislike aggressive, here and elsewhere?

 

Regards

DL

[Mriana]

I see it more as we must argue about it to show those who use it to harm others, that it is myth only and it's edicts that cause harm should be ignored.

 

It is self defense in a way. Not for the defense of you and I but of our children and grandchildren that will get sucked into religion.

 

Regards

DL

 

I do that with my book and other things I write. I really don't want to argue about it all the time. I use to, but when I started freelance writing humanist articles and alike I grew tired of fighting about it face to face.

[DesertBob]

That's how powerful this whole nightmare of religion is! You guys tell me what to do and I will follow in the parade of deconverting others. Right now - I can only talk to people who might have the same questions as I did and try to help them.

 

We had a 'spell' cast over us and they do too - I believed the bullshit for 40 years!!

I fully believed it for 20 years and partly for another 20 and now it's just too painful to think about. We had dinner with a couple a few weeks ago -- one of my fiancee's girlfriends is with a guy now who is a minister, albeit a very liberal one who would probably make a good Unitarian minister and who thinks some fusion of mystical Christianity with Buddhism would be ideal -- but I couldn't bring myself to talk in any significant way about my thoughts on religion even though he probably would have zero real problem with my unbelief. I feel such an admixture of embarrassment and anger and other complex emotions about that period of my life and would prefer to just move on. And I was afraid I'd end up in another one of these dishonest conversations where I'm pretending to at least not disagree so as not to make things awkward, and THAT reminds me too much of my days in Christianity too.

 

There is so, so much I would do so, so differently if I had only known and understood what I do now ... that in some ways my whole life up to the point I self-identified as an unbeliever feels like a colossal waste. I think this is what demotivates me to try to enlighten anyone in that darkness ... it's like asking a victim of childhood sexual molestation to talk a child molester out of his predatory ways. This factor should not be discounted.

 

Finally there is the first hand knowledge of what a vice-lock Christian "thought" has on the brain. The only things that dragged me out of it, kicking and screaming, was severe adversity coupled with just a bit too much intelligence -- the cognitive dissonance is what did me in. I have come to believe that for True Believers -- those who are really committed -- the only thing that will pry them loose is something I have no right to inflict, which is some form of tragedy coupled with whatever working brains they still have left.

 

Despite all the above I can't really get into high dudgeon about the evils of Christianity because at the end of the day we all have to find some way to fool our brains into some kind of "happy place" and who is to say whether Christianity, eastern mysticism, hedonism or building model trains aren't all on the same level for accomplishing that. My fiancee finds online Scrabble strangely calming. Her son finds formal debate teams centering. What floats your boat on an individual basis is kind of random. Not all Christians are rabid fundies, many simply hold their Christian beliefs loosely, and you and I can't forget that our rabid fundie roots aren't the entire story. So starting on a crusade to "save" people from Christianity (or anything else, really) is probably misguided. The saying that applies here is "God has no grandchildren". People have to figure this stuff out for themselves.

 

When my late wife died I thought for a time I would be an activist for her physical maladies but soon realized I was just burned out on it all. I think agitating against Christianity falls into the same category for me. The world will not become all sweetness and light even if I could meaningfully succeed at either of those projects.

[Greatest I am]

I see it more as we must argue about it to show those who use it to harm others, that it is myth only and it's edicts that cause harm should be ignored.

 

It is self defense in a way. Not for the defense of you and I but of our children and grandchildren that will get sucked into religion.

 

Regards

DL

 

I do that with my book and other things I write. I really don't want to argue about it all the time. I use to, but when I started freelance writing humanist articles and alike I grew tired of fighting about it face to face.

 

It does get tiresome I know.

 

In a sense, you’re still are at it. Now it is page to face.

That value may be just as good.

Keep up the good work.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

[[ So starting on a crusade to "save" people from Christianity (or anything else, really) is probably misguided. The saying that applies here is "God has no grandchildren". People have to figure this stuff out for themselves.

 

 

Thanks for this. Interesting.

 

You indicate how damaging to you religion was, yet do not advocate an effort to help, inform or otherwise help people figure out their misconceptions.

 

Were you not helped in this. Did you dither it all out on your own?

 

Do you have any concerns for your children or grandchildren who might get sucked into religious indoctrination?

 

After all, we are all in this together, alone.

 

Regards

DL

[Guest Xtech]

That's how powerful this whole nightmare of religion is! You guys tell me what to do and I will follow in the parade of deconverting others. Right now - I can only talk to people who might have the same questions as I did and try to help them.

 

We had a 'spell' cast over us and they do too - I believed the bullshit for 40 years!!

I fully believed it for 20 years and partly for another 20 and now it's just too painful to think about. We had dinner with a couple a few weeks ago -- one of my fiancee's girlfriends is with a guy now who is a minister, albeit a very liberal one who would probably make a good Unitarian minister and who thinks some fusion of mystical Christianity with Buddhism would be ideal -- but I couldn't bring myself to talk in any significant way about my thoughts on religion even though he probably would have zero real problem with my unbelief. I feel such an admixture of embarrassment and anger and other complex emotions about that period of my life and would prefer to just move on. And I was afraid I'd end up in another one of these dishonest conversations where I'm pretending to at least not disagree so as not to make things awkward, and THAT reminds me too much of my days in Christianity too.

 

There is so, so much I would do so, so differently if I had only known and understood what I do now ... that in some ways my whole life up to the point I self-identified as an unbeliever feels like a colossal waste. I think this is what demotivates me to try to enlighten anyone in that darkness ... it's like asking a victim of childhood sexual molestation to talk a child molester out of his predatory ways. This factor should not be discounted.

 

Finally there is the first hand knowledge of what a vice-lock Christian "thought" has on the brain. The only things that dragged me out of it, kicking and screaming, was severe adversity coupled with just a bit too much intelligence -- the cognitive dissonance is what did me in. I have come to believe that for True Believers -- those who are really committed -- the only thing that will pry them loose is something I have no right to inflict, which is some form of tragedy coupled with whatever working brains they still have left.

 

Despite all the above I can't really get into high dudgeon about the evils of Christianity because at the end of the day we all have to find some way to fool our brains into some kind of "happy place" and who is to say whether Christianity, eastern mysticism, hedonism or building model trains aren't all on the same level for accomplishing that. My fiancee finds online Scrabble strangely calming. Her son finds formal debate teams centering. What floats your boat on an individual basis is kind of random. Not all Christians are rabid fundies, many simply hold their Christian beliefs loosely, and you and I can't forget that our rabid fundie roots aren't the entire story. So starting on a crusade to "save" people from Christianity (or anything else, really) is probably misguided. The saying that applies here is "God has no grandchildren". People have to figure this stuff out for themselves.

 

When my late wife died I thought for a time I would be an activist for her physical maladies but soon realized I was just burned out on it all. I think agitating against Christianity falls into the same category for me. The world will not become all sweetness and light even if I could meaningfully succeed at either of those projects.

 

 

Wow. Another great contribution to the conversation, DB. BTW you can probably speak freely with the minister, guaranteed he has heard it before and/or has been there himself. If you get a reaction that indicates otherwise, I know you would be sensitive to it.

 

I am sympathetic to those who need to have their 'happy place' because life is tough, it really is and some need the pretty lies to get through. Can't get too far with magical thinking with me, though. What I do is tolerate a lot of the mild stuff, stand up for myself though I should be louder and less apologetic about it, protest against wild and hateful claims, and when asked my beliefs, start out with what I do believe in: "I believe in love; I believe in doing good, helping people, serving others, etc. Not to start out with "I don't believe in God" or "I am not Christian." But I will tell anyone who asks if they really want to know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DesertBob]

So starting on a crusade to "save" people from Christianity (or anything else, really) is probably misguided. The saying that applies here is "God has no grandchildren". People have to figure this stuff out for themselves.

You indicate how damaging to you religion was, yet do not advocate an effort to help, inform or otherwise help people figure out their misconceptions.

People tried to talk sense to me at various points in my life and I was immune to it. This is true not just about religion but about all sorts of things. Have you had the dubious privilege of raising a teenager? You can see their eyes glaze over and you know whatever you are saying is being heard as "blah blah blah stupid blah blah". AntlerMan's signature line is true -- what we are is all we can see. It's true at any age. You can (sometimes) plant seeds but you can't rip up existing plants and poke your own into the holes. It doesn't work that way.

 

Do you think that a JW or a Mormon or a Christian knocking on your door to "share" their message is somehow more impertinent than YOU trying to enlighten people? I think they are one in the same. Both you and they think they are "helping" when in fact they are just meddling in something that's not their business.

Were you not helped in this. Did you dither it all out on your own?

Quite frankly, no, I had no help. A more liberal Christian said a couple of sentences to me in my mid-teens about my plans to go to a particular religious school he felt was too broomstick-up-the-ass but other than that I never got a lick of unsolicited advice about my spiritual life from anyone -- nor would I have given such any credence except, just maybe, if it had been from a close relative. I did figure it out by myself. At the point the light started dawning I came to resources like this one and ASKED for feedback and support because I was READY for it.

Do you have any concerns for your children or grandchildren who might get sucked into religious indoctrination?

My children found their way to atheism without my "help" and as a consequence my grandchildren are not under those illusions either. This fact is one of the things that keeps me going; near as I can tell I have not foisted more of that nonsense on the world via my own children. It makes my life feel like significantly less of an exercise in futility.

After all, we are all in this together, alone.

You got that right.

[Mriana]

It does get tiresome I know.

 

In a sense, you’re still are at it. Now it is page to face.

That value may be just as good.

Keep up the good work.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

It's just not as in your face. People have a choice as to rather or not they want to read what I write.

[Spectrox]

Ex Christians and social conscience.

 

As Ex Christians, you should feel good about having broken free and escaped the repression of your old religion and ways of thinking.

 

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

Regards

DL

 

I wouldn't go door to door and try to de-convert people even if I felt strongly about it. That's just as naff as a Jehovah's Witness coming to my door. If religious beliefs come up in the natural flow of conversation then sure I would state my case. It's probably worth taking a more long-term political view of the situation and perhaps join a campaign that you believe in, e.g. teaching creationism in RE lessons not Science lessons. That would have more effect than trying to deconvert a few old acquaintances even if you think they are spectacularly wrong.

 

Kinda passive.

I hope you would be a tad more aggressive with a J W neighbor who you see is letting his child die from want of blood.

 

I am sure you would be and just threw that in for lurkers.

 

What about the net?

Are you more assertive, I dislike aggressive, here and elsewhere?

 

Regards

DL

 

I was much more aggressive when I went on some christian forums - in fact I got banned from 3!

 

http://www.christian...s.com/t7584655/

 

This is a link to quite a good debate I had on Christianforums.com. I went on with the intention of just causing a little bit of mischief but it ended up being a full blown row!

 

This staunch christian called Eric Hilbert (a good debater, but a complete nutter) sees me as a threat and tries to get under my skin - he basically starts a fight. At first he has me wrong-footed because I can't be bothered writing a fully referenced thesis on the subject. Then I take the piss. Then some other lad called Chris72 (an atheist) joins in and really shows this Eric guy up. Then I stick the boot in and give him a good tongue lashing! "You're going down Scum-King!" And it worked. He had to leave the debate. I'm surprised the mods let the whole thing through to be honest! The debate is quite lengthy but worth a read - I find some of it highly entertaining now! I didn't realise I could be so vicious!

 

Most of the time I'm more chilled than this. If I lived in certain parts of the US though I would probably be more outspoken than Richard Dawkins!

 

Spectrox (formerly Spectrox War)

[Greatest I am]

 

Do you think that a JW or a Mormon or a Christian knocking on your door to "share" their message is somehow more impertinent than YOU trying to enlighten people? I think they are one in the same. Both you and they think they are "helping" when in fact they are just meddling in something that's not their business.

 

I see helping people as everyone’s business and duty.

 

I have always welcome J W into my home. I always gave them the credit for at least having the balls to try to convert people to what they think is a better way. When I knew nothing of their theology, it was to see if it made sense. When I determined that it made no more sense than the other Abrahamic cults and saw how easily it was to trip them up. I changed my focus to trying to show them how their interpretations just did not work. At the end, I had them virtually running away from my door. To me, that was a first step to be-converting the poor deluded fools.

 

I think correcting poor thinking of others helps us all in the long run and is part of our duty to our fellow man.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

 

Most of the time I'm more chilled than this. If I lived in certain parts of the US though I would probably be more outspoken than Richard Dawkins!

 

Spectrox (formerly Spectrox War)

 

Thanks for this.

 

I too was banned from there and cannot read you O P.

I have had the same basic type of discussion though and know the feeling.

 

One thing that I have noted in going about to different places, is how actually few apologists are out there.

Don't get me wrong, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, but when you consider the population numbers of just the Abrahamic cults, 5 billion or so, hardly any of them are actually in the fray.

That is why I think that 95 % of so called believers, have no belief and are just in it for traditions sake.

Nothing better to do on Sunday I guess.

 

Regards

DL

[bornagainathiest]

For the attention of End3!

 

It looks like you've been here before, End.

 

Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:07 PM (#1) ...by Gerald.

What If Christianity Didn't Have A Belief-centered Focus?

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Florduh replied to Gerald's question...Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:37 PM (#3)

Hello and welcome.

In answer to your question, no. The Bible does contain some wise thoughts, but I can find much more useful/practical/common sense/feel good material in Eastern philosophies, Wayne Dyer, Eric Hoffer, Deepak Chopra and Mark Twain.

BTW, the Bible states, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." Also, "...whosoever believes on Him..." With true belief, more "Godly" behavior would naturally follow as one tries to emulate and follow their leader. The message of Jesus was all about leaving behind legalism (behavioral rules) for a change of heart instead. I think belief is crucial to the religion if one goes by what's in their Bible. All the rest is doctrinal one-upmanship.

 

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End3 replied to Gerald's question...Posted 12 July 2011 - 06:26 PM (#4)

Last Sunday's sermon....in Ephesians, one could have read the passage as the "Spirit" being representative of the general population of man making the effort to do good......we being tied together, regardless of belief, in that effort. I can rationalize that, and I can feel that with the population here at Ex-C, the relationship that I now have, but I really think that is in error in exegesis. You know, in part, I would think that a judge would take this into account, but I wouldn't want to be the judge.

To your question, I think you will have few votes for re-subscription.

Welcome.

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Gerald asks about belief.

Florduh's reply is about belief - the belief in the saving grace of the person of Jesus Christ. Salvation thru belief in Jesus first, then emulation of Him afterwards, once your destiny is secure.

 

Your reply is about making the collective effort to do good - nothing at all about a belief that brings salvation!!!??

(Sounds more Deist than Christian to me...and we've recently been here too!)

Ummmm... look, I've just got to ask you out straight...

Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and that if you accept His free gift of salvation, you will be saved from eternal hellfire, dwelling with the triune God Yeshua in heaven, forever after? Y/N?

Sorry friend, but your profile says that you are an 'Authentic Christian Believer'.

Doesn't that title mean that you are saved by your belief in the sacrifice Jesus made for you upon the Cross, not by any efforts on your part?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[DesertBob]

Do you think that a JW or a Mormon or a Christian knocking on your door to "share" their message is somehow more impertinent than YOU trying to enlighten people? I think they are one in the same. Both you and they think they are "helping" when in fact they are just meddling in something that's not their business.

I see helping people as everyone’s business and duty.

 

I have always welcome J W into my home. I always gave them the credit for at least having the balls to try to convert people to what they think is a better way.

I guess that's where we part company. I never appreciate door to door salespersons of any stripe, whether they're selling God or vacuum cleaners. As far as I'm concerned it violates that peace and privacy of my home. I'm perfectly capable of asking for information if I want it -- or here in the 21st century, Googling it. No one has ever made a pitch to me in my home unless I've solicited it from them.

 

I will certainly help people who come to me for it, if I possibly can, but I do not offer help where it's not asked for and especially where it's not wanted.

 

Also I don't give JW's credit for having balls, I give them credit for doing what they are told they must do to be a member of the elect of god. In my experience many of them are terrified to knock on doors but they do it because they don't want to burn in hell or whatever a JW's version of hell is (I used to know but comparative religion class is so many years in my past it's gotten quite blurry). And/or maybe because they don't want to be ostracized by the group for being gutless and uncommitted.