Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days In Heaven’ During A Coma

[Margee]

Anyway, I stop here and let the misunderstandings begin to rise to the surface in what I am saying and try to deal with those. I hope others try to ask for clarification, rather than assuming mindsets and 'refuting' what I, nor anyone else I've seen in thread say.

 

Antlerman...I think you are the most wonderful person in the world for trying so hard to help us.....You put up so many posts and I think you are so kind to do this. I really mean that. I will take the time to read what you wrote to me later when I have more time. I just soooo admire you... you always seem to have peace no matter what is going on. I've never had that. I always tell my family that when I die...to rejoice that 'Margee' is finally at peace. (unless there is a hell..then it will continue for me for eternity )

 

Like I've said in 2,000 posts...I keep a smile painted on my face, try to treat everyone with as much respect as I can and help out when it's needed. I go shopping, get my housework done to disco music... and take care of many things through the day. I REALLY try to live a good life. My true 'peace' comes when I lay my head down on the pillow at night.

 

Maybe, someday..I'll get what you got......I'm looking forward to it!! Thanks a million Antlerman! You are very kind.

I like that in you.

[mcdaddy]

We'll all get the "peace" A-M has......when we're dead!

 

J/k AM!

[Antlerman]

We'll all get the "peace" A-M has......when we're dead!

 

J/k AM!

Nah, then you're just dead.

[LivingLife]

I'm curious who you are referring to in this 'rebuttal'? Is it anyone is this thread? I only see it applying to those outside this thread who use these NDE's as proof of something out there. It can't be me as I've already addressed in detail these points, repeatedly, and this is just a restatement of your views without addressing anything I said. Who do you think in this thread believes what you are refuting above?

I am surprised you have to ask?

 

Your closing statement in the post preceding mine;

 

But I very much encourage you and everyone else to practice meditation, as it takes that small burning flame and exposes it to yourself as a blazing solar flare. Knowing this my friend, well... no words.... no words.... you will be forever changed.

 

I find it hard to believe that this is not merely peddling much the same way as religionists do in a "try it, you might like it" or "what have you got to lose" kind of way.

 

This is what I addressed in the supposed "path(s) of enlightenment" or "purpose to life"

 

What you should have gleaned off from my post is that everyone's perceptions are subjective. It is a process of self validation by trying to assert that what one believes is "correct" or suggesting one is on the path that is their path or you are where you need to be right now. These are all mystical arguments/suggestions.

 

First of all, the mystic needs to prove that there is a path to begin with and also to elucidate the destination of said path(s). This is no different to what I encountered in Christianity and that is why I posed that this is merely something else in a prettier package. Of course the mystic will not have the stick part of hell threats so they are IMO harmless.

 

Your closing statement sparked the response but I was being as generic as possible and is not really a rebuttal; merely a statement of opinion, which at the end of the day is all we have outside of the real world we live in.

 

I think if you read the posts of atheists here, you should come to the conclusion that I/we do not think I/we are lacking anything requiring that I/we try out something else.

 

I am however convinced that what you believe in and practice, works 100% for you.

[mymistake]

It can't be me as I've already addressed in detail these points, repeatedly . . .

 

Things like this are the reason I'm going to have to stop visiting this section. Between this and the statements about atheists it's just too much.

[Antlerman]

I'm curious who you are referring to in this 'rebuttal'? Is it anyone is this thread? I only see it applying to those outside this thread who use these NDE's as proof of something out there. It can't be me as I've already addressed in detail these points, repeatedly, and this is just a restatement of your views without addressing anything I said. Who do you think in this thread believes what you are refuting above?

I am surprised you have to ask?

 

Your closing statement in the post preceding mine;

 

But I very much encourage you and everyone else to practice meditation, as it takes that small burning flame and exposes it to yourself as a blazing solar flare. Knowing this my friend, well... no words.... no words.... you will be forever changed.

 

I find it hard to believe that this is not merely peddling much the same way as religionists do in a "try it, you might like it" or "what have you got to lose" kind of way.

This is two separate things. That you take this as evangelizing, which is hardly a fair assessment on your part, is one thing. I was specifically asking about the contents of your whole post, which you now admit paints a picture of how you believe I believe, and then refutes that. I've said that early on, and addressed early on and multiple times in mulitple ways, that this 'person' who believes what you project upon me as me, is in fact not me at all. You never actually address any of my points specifically. To me, you just simply do not get, or are unable to understand what I'm saying. That person's beliefs you are refuting, is not me, and cannot be gleaned from any of my words. You are refuting a straw soldier.

 

Now, as far as you thinking I'm evangelizing you or anyone else, exactly what religion am I peddling? Meditation?? Good lord man, that's like saying I'm peddling the value of physcial exercise! Yep, guilty as charged!

• What beliefs am I say you should believe?
  
• What God am I saying you should worship?
  
• What teacher am I saying you should follow?
  
• What religion am I say you should join?
  

If none of the above, then how is this peddling a religion, belief, etc? I am, and will however extoll the value of these sorts of practices, no matter what context you place them into! Atheists practice this as well, and they benefit the exact same way I am saying. Ever read Sam Harris? Is my description of what I gain from it inaccurate? Oh hell no. Others extoll the same things. Should everyone do this, to go this deep? Well, that's up to them. If you want Peace like that, that that's important to you, then you have to do the work. It's that simple. No one is telling you are wrong if you don't. I sure am not.

 

Anyway, I would enjoy you addressing the actual points I've raised in how I do not see this as outside of us, as that would actually be engaging in a discussion around these things, rather than an image of a Christian you project upon me. I don't see a point in debating what I already do not believe.

[Antlerman]

It can't be me as I've already addressed in detail these points, repeatedly . . .

 

Things like this are the reason I'm going to have to stop visiting this section. Between this and the statements about atheists it's just too much.

Really? I'm sorry, but they don't address my points. What am I supposed to say? They do? And my statements are not about atheists, as for all intents and purposes I fit that definition as well. They are about the "hardcore" cynics. I do not equate the term Cynicism with Atheism. Many are in fact are reasonable skeptics. I'm skeptical as well. Many theists are skeptics as well. Most certainly. Don't think I equate hardcore cynicism with atheism. That is untrue. I reject those who claim it is, and hide their cynicism behind the word Atheist as a shield, as a badge of honor. Sartre would weep.

 

If you find my dislike of cynicism and rejection of the hardcore who call that simply being skeptical, something you can't take, then so be it. That is the way it is.

[Vigile]

 

Margee, you just described my entire xian experience. Sincerity, commitment, a deep desire to have an experience and to transform in some way meaningful, yet nothing but frustration and wasted time to show for my efforts. For those of you who get something out of this path, I'm happy for you, but just know that for some, like us, it's a cruel and very false promise and an entirely empty experience that we'd just as soon leave in our past.

It's not a promise that if you do this, you have this. It's your path, and your own self you seek to find. I nor any teacher alive can give you that. See the difference? It's not a promise. It's a direction to help you do your own work. Nothing will every do it for you, or anyone one of us. Have I had success? Yes, definitely. Will you? I don't know. Will you?

 

My own path, as I've since discovered, is peace through the idea of not having to seek a spiritual path. When I let go of the idea things got a lot easier. As I said, this is me. It may not be true of everyone -- I can accept that. I think those who are wired differently need to understand this about people like Margee and I and others too though.

 

This doesn't mean we can't find something deeper when we listen to music, read literature, view art, etc... But taking a spiritual journey through meditation, or what have you, is not something I'm in any way attracted to. If someone were to tell me I'm approaching it all wrong and if I could merely readjust my thinking, my approach or something else along those lines what I hear is virtually the same thing I heard when a pastor years ago, frustrated by the fact I didn't experience baptism in the spirit, told me to pray, fast and go spend time alone seeking intently until it comes.

[Antlerman]

First of all, the mystic needs to prove that there is a path to begin with and also to elucidate the destination of said path(s). This is no different to what I encountered in Christianity and that is why I posed that this is merely something else in a prettier package.

Alright, here is a point I can address. Why do we need to prove there is a path to anything? What do you think we are selling? I see this as entirely different that Christianity in the way it presents its 'message', so to speak.

 

The way it works is this. First of all, the proof is in the experience itself. I can tell you I am radically changed through meditative practices. That's my personal, firsthand account from someone who has done the work and had a result. Secondly, you have the words of others who have done the experiments and had results, and when you compare the two, they are very much coming up with the same results (I have no idea why you are saying they don't). Thirdly, you have physical evidence you can look at, which they are showing marked differences in the brains between mediators and non-mediators. So something is happening, even if the MRI's are unable to tell you what the experience of that is. To know that, you have to interview the researchers themselves - the mediators.

 

Now, and to my point in hoping to talk with you in this discussion, none of this is about proving any metaphysical speculation or a theology. That something happens, is irrefutable. That this is saying you are lost, sinner, on the way to hell, or heaven, or the afterlife and whatnot, is in fact purely interpretative symbols. Some in fact believe them to be literally true. I DO NOT. I do however, know, that what happens to me in meditation is in fact REAL. Not the symbols, if any, such as tree, or stream, or water, or a god, or whatever. Those are not the thing itself, but may be part of the experience, if at all. The experience is profound, life altering. And... it is repeatable. I am able to repeat this pretty much any time I perform the experiment. The results are there, but the only part of it you can see from outside of it, is what is measurable, such as physiological or behavioral differences. Those are there, but don't expect to know what this is from reading a graph or a study. Those are not the content itself.

 

All that the mystic shares is his or her own insights and experiences. It's not selling a belief. And that is how I see you make the mistake in how you approach all your responses to these sorts of things. It is not equatable with the Christian in their doctrinal based religion.

 

I think if you read the posts of atheists here, you should come to the conclusion that I/we do not think I/we are lacking anything requiring that I/we try out something else.

Then why are you interested in this discussion? Are you trying to refute the claims of others of what they call higher experiences? Those aren't real? They don't exist? They're just in the head? You see, I think it's important to look at what the real point of contention actually is.

[LivingLife]

This is two separate things. That you take this as evangelizing, which is hardly a fair assessment on your part, is one thing. I was specifically asking about the contents of your whole post, which you now admit paints a picture of how you believe I believe, and then refutes that.

WTF? Really I said this. You know you debate just like the woos from christianity, make up shit, put words in peoples mouths/text and then try and take umbrage to a challenge to your beliefs. Should I spell it out for you. I was being generic. WTF you take this so personally beats me UNLESS you think deep down it is BS? All I see is the same shit, different persona.

 

This is one of the reasons we cannot have a modicum of logical discussion with you w/o you deflating the discussion to this sort of diatribe.

I've said that early on, and addressed early on and multiple times in mulitple ways, that this 'person' who believes what you project upon me as me, is in fact not me at all.

You are taking projection where none is personally intended. How much more of a qualifier do you need than when I said, I have no issues with people's personal beliefs; then went on to state my case.

You never actually address any of my points specifically.

I was not addressing you specifically but hinting in your general direction, IOW trying to be diplomatic which now I am not.

To me, you just simply do not get, or are unable to understand what I'm saying. That person's beliefs you are refuting, is not me, and cannot be gleaned from any of my words. You are refuting a straw soldier.

No I am refuting this whole spiritual diatribe whatever the flavour.

 

Now, as far as you thinking I'm evangelizing you or anyone else, exactly what religion am I peddling? Meditation?? Good lord man, that's like saying I'm peddling the value of physcial exercise! Yep, guilty as charged!

• What beliefs am I say you should believe?
  
• What God am I saying you should worship?
  
• What teacher am I saying you should follow?
  
• What religion am I say you should join?
  

If none of the above, then how is this peddling a religion, belief, etc? I am, and will however extoll the value of these sorts of practices, no matter what context you place them into! Atheists practice this as well, and they benefit the exact same way I am saying. Ever read Sam Harris? Is my description of what I gain from it inaccurate? Oh hell no. Others extoll the same things. Should everyone do this, to go this deep? Well, that's up to them. If you want Peace like that, that that's important to you, then you have to do the work. It's that simple. No one is telling you are wrong if you don't. I sure am not.

 

Anyway, I would enjoy you addressing the actual points I've raised in how I do not see this as outside of us, as that would actually be engaging in a discussion around these things, rather than an image of a Christian you project upon me. I don't see a point in debating what I already do not believe.

Please don't take everything so personal. Perhaps you are too entrenched to see that that which you "peddle" is not much different to what xians "peddle"

 

"Unless you receive the kingdom of heaven as a little child, you shall by no means enter it", "you must be born again" et al.

VS.

"But I very much encourage you and everyone else to practice meditation, as it takes that small burning flame and exposes it to yourself as a blazing solar flare. Knowing this my friend, well... no words.... no words.... you will be forever changed."

 

To me, it appears as the same approach just a different flavour.

 

I do not read the likes of Sam Harris or any other self proclaimed guru, not even when I was a theist. I took the aspects of "look to no man" very literally/seriously. Perhaps this is a US centric culture thingy that folk hold fast to the words of prophets, scholars and gurus. In my case, that never happened. The only books I ever read was from the evangelist who conned me, then I gave them away. I read two chapters of a Billy Graham book and then tossed it. I did however watch a lot of TBN in my search for truth™ till I realised no one had any answers, only opinions.

 

Please let me address part 2 before you respond to this.

[Margee]

there is nothing I haven't tried.

 

Except for the one thing that works?

 

Antlerman....you know I am your friend. I don't know how to multiquote, but I said some real nice things about you a

few posts back. You are a kind person..I can tell... and I really do TRY to follow all your postings.....I find it interesting...but I have to admit...you made me a little 'uneasy' this morning, as much as you tried to help me, by saying the above. You also said this in another post, Quote: ''Have I had success? Yes, definitely.

Will you? I don't know. Will you?''

 

If you have reached enlightenment.....I wish you would write one real simple explanation, in one paragragph on how to do it for this 'grade 9' brain of mine. I want what you have you know!!

 

And I want it by tonight!!!! LOL

[Antlerman]

My own path, as I've since discovered, is peace through the idea of not having to seek a spiritual path. When I let go of the idea things got a lot easier.

Bingo! Yes. Exactly. You should read that section in my long reply to Margee this morning where I say, "If you seek to "get" it, grasp it, possess, seize it, own it, you will fail - every time.". What you say here, I would expect to be the result. It got a lot easier. Exactly my point.

 

As I said, this is me. It may not be true of everyone -- I can accept that. I think those who are wired differently need to understand this about people like Margee and I and others too though.

Personally, I tend to think we're all wired the same way as far as how we have to let it go in order to find it inside us. You just described that for yourself! That we are all compelled to go deep sea diving, is of course a matter of many factors. Not everyone is "wired" with the same insatiable thirst for that, and that's perfectly fine. In my opinion, there are many factors which go into determining that, such as some traumatic experience that forcefully exposes you to something like this in ourselves - like the NDE as a great example. We could fill a whole thread discussing those possibilities alone. There is no judgment if someone isn't compelled to go become a monk or something.

 

This doesn't mean we can't find something deeper when we listen to music, read literature, view art, etc...

That is correct. You are speaking to someone who invested in audiophile level music equipment, tube amps, turntable, etc, for just that sort of deeper appreciation through music. Most definitely a lot can be opened to you through these exercises.

 

But taking a spiritual journey through meditation, or what have you, is not something I'm in any way attracted to.

But you've already described a spiritual journey for yourself. You swim in music, you found inner peace in not trying to 'be spiritual', etc. You're already doing it. All that meditation is is a highly focused exercise that takes what you get from listening to music, and deepens that yet again, and again, and again, to the point you are utterly swimming within that music. It's the same thing, just more, deeper, fuller, richer, and so forth. That's all this is. You find yourself, and are in love. That's spirituality, not this other crap about whatever it is we imagine it means.

 

If someone were to tell me I'm approaching it all wrong and if I could merely readjust my thinking, my approach or something else along those lines what I hear is virtually the same thing I heard when a pastor years ago, frustrated by the fact I didn't experience baptism in the spirit, told me to pray, fast and go spend time alone seeking intently until it comes.

Here's the funny, and by that I mean ironic thing Vigile. Believe me I get what you're saying. I constantly and just befuddled and say to my partner Amy, "I can't get over how that I hear these Christians, these Evangelical preachers saying the right words, but they just don't get it! It means something entirely different to them". I say that almost every day Don. It simply amazes me and stupifies me. But here is why. It is all see as external to them. That is why to them it is something you have to do, to get. When you release it from within you, it's yours, and then it makes sense. I really recommend reading that section I posted to Margee above.

 

Anyway, not pushing anything here, but I somewhat think you might understand better through this post what I'm saying. It's really for me all about trying to find better ways to communicate this. It's clear as hell to me, however, that doesn't make it easy to say.

[Antlerman]

there is nothing I haven't tried.

 

Except for the one thing that works?

 

Antlerman....you know I am your friend. I don't know how to multiquote, but I said some real nice things about you a

few posts back. You are a kind person..I can tell... and I really do TRY to follow all your postings.....I find it interesting...but I have to admit...you made me a little 'uneasy' this morning, as much as you tried to help me, by saying the above. You also said this in another post, Quote: ''Have I had success? Yes, definitely.

Will you? I don't know. Will you?''

 

If you have reached enlightenment.....I wish you would write one real simple explanation, in one paragragph on how to do it for this 'grade 9' brain of mine. I want what you have you know!!

 

And I want it by tonight!!!! LOL

What I said there was tongue in cheek, of course. The other parts of it were not though. The only thing I meant by what I said to Vigile was a rhetorical way of saying there isn't anything I can tell you to do and it will work for you. None can impart to you what you already fully have. I'm saying one thing: find yourself.

[Vigile]

Thanks Keith. I have no response at this time, but didn't want you to think I'm just ignoring you. I'll reread your response to Margee.

[Antlerman]

I'm going to make a separate post over something I just said as I think it bears it's own space. I hope it helps address much of the confusion that I see in the types of responses I am hearing by others:

 

All that meditation is is a highly focused exercise that takes what you get from listening to music, and deepens that yet again, and again, and again, to the point you are utterly swimming within that music. It's the same thing, just more, deeper, fuller, richer, and so forth. That's all this is.

You find yourself, and are in love

. That's spirituality, not this other crap about whatever it is we imagine it means.

 

Finding yourself. Exploring the depths of what that means. Living Life fully as the result. We are spiritual beings, and it does not matter if we find that in a religion or otherwise. All we are finding is ourselves, so deeply, so fully, that we become love itself. And that is spirituality, not some damned belief; not some god; but ourselves.

[mymistake]

It can't be me as I've already addressed in detail these points, repeatedly . . .

 

Things like this are the reason I'm going to have to stop visiting this section. Between this and the statements about atheists it's just too much.

Really? I'm sorry, but they don't address my points.

 

I've typed out five different responses to this and all the previous times I didn't have the guts to hit send. I can't tell what kind of answers are allowed here so I will keep my thoughts to myself.

 

What am I supposed to say? They do? And my statements are not about atheists, as for all intents and purposes I fit that definition as well.

 

Then I was mistaken. I had been under the impression that you believe a real thing exists that you call God. But now that you have cleared it up I realize that you believe everything called God is fictional.

 

 

They are about the "hardcore" cynics. I do not equate the term Cynicism with Atheism. Many are in fact are reasonable skeptics. I'm skeptical as well. Many theists are skeptics as well. Most certainly. Don't think I equate hardcore cynicism with atheism. That is untrue. I reject those who claim it is, and hide their cynicism behind the word Atheist as a shield, as a badge of honor. Sartre would weep.

 

If you find my dislike of cynicism and rejection of the hardcore who call that simply being skeptical, something you can't take, then so be it. That is the way it is.

 

You have spelled out what kind of people you give these labels and I disagree with your usage. However I don't want to get branded as a hardcore cynic so I will stay in sections where people are free to express all ideas.

[LivingLife]

Alright, here is a point I can address. Why do we need to prove there is a path to anything? What do you think we are selling? I see this as entirely different that Christianity in the way it presents its 'message', so to speak.

 

The way it works is this. First of all, the proof is in the experience itself.(1) I can tell you I am radically changed through meditative practices(2). That's my personal, firsthand account from someone who has done the work and had a result(3). Secondly, you have the words of others who have done the experiments and had results, and when you compare the two, they are very much coming up with the same results(4) (I have no idea why you are saying they don't). Thirdly, you have physical evidence you can look at, which they are showing marked differences in the brains between mediators and non-mediators(5). So something is happening, even if the MRI's are unable to tell you what the experience of that is. To know that, you have to interview the researchers themselves - the mediators.

(1.) This argument is used by Christians too, (2.) So too do born again Christians, power of prayer et al. (3.) Anecdotals do not constitute "evidence", the Christians use this fallacy too. (4.) Christians use the argument of similarity in experiences. (5.) Yes MRIs do show something is happening which brings me to the point of all of it; it all happens in the brain.

Now, and to my point in hoping to talk with you in this discussion, none of this is about proving any metaphysical speculation or a theology. That something happens, is irrefutable. That this is saying you are lost, sinner, on the way to hell, or heaven, or the afterlife and whatnot, is in fact purely interpretative symbols.

This is what I call theistspeak and in your case mysticspeak. IMO this is validation by association. Christians have "real" experiences so you have them too in a different application of effort. Hell there is a mystic that talks of "spiritual fossil records" and he is just as adamant as you. By SFRs he means how the ancients interpreted it, how modern religions interpret it etc.

Some in fact believe them to be literally true. I DO NOT. I do however, know, that what happens to me in meditation is in fact REAL.

It is only real to you, it is not based on reality.

Not the symbols, if any, such as tree, or stream, or water, or a god, or whatever. Those are not the thing itself, but may be part of the experience, if at all. The experience is profound, life altering.

So was my born again experience.

And... it is repeatable. I am able to repeat this pretty much any time I perform the experiment. The results are there, but the only part of it you can see from outside of it, is what is measurable, such as physiological or behavioral differences. Those are there, but don't expect to know what this is from reading a graph or a study. Those are not the content itself.

Yes it is repeatable. Folk attend service regularly as the hypnosis and group effect is addictive. I really do not see what mystics do and what Christians do any differently and you tend to share that opinion except we come to different conclusions.

Then why are you interested in this discussion? Are you trying to refute the claims of others of what they call higher experiences? Those aren't real? They don't exist? They're just in the head? You see, I think it's important to look at what the real point of contention actually is.

See there is a typical theist cop out. When their back is against the wall, this is the type of question they pose, "Why are you so interested in discussing religion...?"

 

A-Man, I can take almost all of your posts and remove the mystic phrases and replace them with equivalent Christianese phrases and the sentences will read almost identical.

 

Another observation. This whole aspect of NDEs and OOBEs as the latest proofs of theism and how the folk latch onto this as a last ditch attempt and how this topic became what it did, I see only validation by association. This, IMO, places you mystics squarely in the camp of the theists. The similarities are eerily the same.

 

Perhaps mystics need to develop a new vocabulary but I seriously doubt that it can happen. The indoctrination from kiddiesville is just too much there and probably, through no deliberate fault of your own, you are a victim to your own upbringing in this regard.

 

The short version, reading you and a reading a theist - no difference. (here I am talking of "skilled" or well read apologists)

[LifeCycle]

I haven't read whatever the hell this discussion has turned into and probably will not. I was just interested in the subject matter I posted here in the not so "spiritual" forum.

 

Regarding the possible after-life and our ability to observe it, test it, experience it. It may always be impossible and that may very well be as the atheist would say, "because it doesn't exist." And that's fine.

 

But for some of us, or many of us, the way our lives have played out, the way circumstances have come together, the things we have observed have lended themselves to the idea that this isn't it. Or maybe, it's just that we're weak and the idea that this entire experience is nature's way of playing a "fuck you" joke on us, is unacceptable.

[Akheia]

I'm suddenly wondering why Antlerman left Christianity and why he does not consider it a religion he would wish to pursue. Is there an extimony?

[Antlerman]

What am I supposed to say? They do? And my statements are not about atheists, as for all intents and purposes I fit that definition as well.

 

Then I was mistaken. I had been under the impression that you believe a real thing exists that you call God. But now that you have cleared it up I realize that you believe everything called God is fictional.

Two things here. First, it proves my point that many of those who that the postition you are, don't get from what I say the radical difference between this and a theist. To them it sounds identical, and underscores what I have been saying how that they are unable to penetrate the difference.

 

Secondly, it is puzzling how you then extend what "atheist" means to you to suggest I am saying "everything called God is fictional". I would never say that. I say what I mean in all my posts, but they are heard as you hear them. I'll see if there is another way to make what I say clearer, but I honestly think it will still sound to you the way you see. It is outside your knowledge, and therefore has to be put into one of the boxes you do know. I don't fit into any of those. Trust me on this.

[Antlerman]

I'm suddenly wondering why Antlerman left Christianity and why he does not consider it a religion he would wish to pursue. Is there an extimony?

Suddenly wondering? That's curious. Why aren't you asking me? Who are you asking? Here's my ex-testimony in 4 parts: http://www.ex-christ...mony-part-1-of/

 

To explain how I see Christianity now is difficult. But in a simple nutshell, it doesn't work. That's why.

[Akheia]

I'm crazy that way. Thanks for the link. I wasn't sure if you had it or if someone else did or what. Thank you.

[Antlerman]

I haven't read whatever the hell this discussion has turned into and probably will not. I was just interested in the subject matter I posted here in the not so "spiritual" forum.

Oh, don't say that. I'm offering an opportunity for valid questions, but trying to curtail the 'hardcore' cynics from not participating. I honestly believe legitimate skepticism is good, and I don't want to say "only spiritual practitioners may enter". Others may have genuine questions/concerns and are asking legitimate questions. That would only benefit them, and I don't want to close that door.

 

However, the sort of "debate style stuff", such as a couple of the recent posts, I'm feeling not so good about allowing in here. I encourage discussion, not refutation/debunking crap. I'm going to ask that this be a polite discussion, otherwise I won't allow it here.

 

It's a fine balance I try to strike allowing for freedom, while protecting healthy discussions. Is this OK with you?

[Akheia]

(That was such a touching series of posts, AM, thank you.)

 

By the way, this is a bit OT by now, but I did get through most of that god-helmet video and it's quite neat so far. I liked how the presenter was pretty explicit about not wanting the technology to be fodder for theists or non-theists to trumpet about proof or disproof of one thing or another. That the feelings of intense closeness with "something" can be produced by a helmet or headband doesn't invalidate them or mean anything's true or false. In the end, it just means that yes, the feelings can be reproduced and that we tend to give shape and form to those feelings according to our cultural and religious conditioning. Very neat video.

[mymistake]

What am I supposed to say? They do? And my statements are not about atheists, as for all intents and purposes I fit that definition as well.

 

Then I was mistaken. I had been under the impression that you believe a real thing exists that you call God. But now that you have cleared it up I realize that you believe everything called God is fictional.

Two things here. First, it proves my point that many of those who that the postition you are, don't get from what I say the radical difference between this and a theist. To them it sounds identical, and underscores what I have been saying how that they are unable to penetrate the difference.

 

Secondly, it is puzzling how you then extend what "atheist" means to you to suggest I am saying "everything called God is fictional". I would never say that. I say what I mean in all my posts, but they are heard as you hear them. I'll see if there is another way to make what I say clearer, but I honestly think it will still sound to you the way you see. It is outside your knowledge, and therefore has to be put into one of the boxes you do know. I don't fit into any of those. Trust me on this.

 

Well let's hear your definition of atheist that includes people who believe in God.

 

If you eat meat then you are not a vegetarian.