Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days In Heaven’ During A Coma

[Antlerman]

Are you guys mocking me? I thought I was being respectful to you.

No. No. We're just teasing.

Yes, it to illustrate that these either/or frameworks are not reality.

 

I'm sorry but I don't see how all your talk about God and the divine is compatible with being somebody who lacks belief that such things exist.

I lack such beliefs myself. To understand this you'll need to step out of those super-reduced equations you're currently attracted to. If you're not interested, be assured there are those out there that don't think like Richard Dawkins about these things. I see his views on this as well, sophomoric.

 

So, MyMistake, if you really want to move beyond Dawkins and company's simplistic, literalist views into what I'm talking about here, wrap your mind around this. This is where I am coming from:

 

"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."

 

Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85

[Rev R]

It's very Zen, if you think about it.

 

If you have to think about it, it's not very Zen.

 

Boom! Y'all caught me being unenlightened!

 

Now drink a beer for me.

[Antlerman]

I lack such beliefs myself. To understand this you'll need to step out of those super-reduced equations you're currently attracted to. If you're not interested, be assured there are those out there that don't think like Richard Dawkins about these things. I see his views on this as well, sophomoric.

 

I've been asking and asking. Since you have added a new concept how about explaining what "super-reduced equations" I currently find attractive.

I added a quote just now in a post before this one. I hope that helps you to see a little more the nature of what I am talking about here. I'm not blaming you. It's just a shame there isn't more of this sort of insight in our voices of reason today, versus the sort of political ramblings I'm so bored with hearing. It's so beneath using our reasoning minds.

 

It's a real shame about all the dictionaries in the world that don't have the correct meaning for "vegetarian". I will let you have the honor of informing the various publishers of their error.

Error? Correct meaning? God's Word says?

 

I didn't mention God's Word. Hans teased me for being wrong because I went by the dictionary definition. I guess I'm just too stupid to get any of this.

What I was getting at is that you said the use of language was an error. It's language. Language is not static. Meaning is very dynamic. Language evolves.

[Ouroboros]

I didn't mention God's Word. Hans teased me for being wrong because I went by the dictionary definition. I guess I'm just too stupid to get any of this.

Sorry that you got so hurt from it. That wasn't my intention. Sorry again.

 

I guess I can leave this topic too now.

[florduh]

It's very Zen, if you think about it.

 

If you have to think about it, it's not very Zen.

 

Boom! Y'all caught me being unenlightened!

 

Now drink a beer for me.

There is no beer. Kinda Zen if you think about it.

[Thought2Much]

There's no beer because you drank it all, and didn't have the courtesy to restock the fridge. That's not Zen, that's being a dick. When you get more beer, can you pick up some Guinness? Thanks.

[Margee]

We are God.

 

How come 'they' aren't god Ant? The little starving children or the little ones being raped? I really want a sincere answer....something that makes sense to me!! I just want to understand!

How do you assume they aren't? God, in skinny, starving disquise??.... Do you feel compassion towards them as yourself? I sure do..I support the cause of starvation..... What are you seeing within them that stirs that compassion? That they are screaming out in agony for food, water, shelter...for safety that they will never feel.....

 

As it says in that video, that part I love so much, "Love yourself so deeply, that when you see another, you see God". I'm afraid that this is where I have a very hard time.... You see that God within them and see their suffering, and experience that Compassion within yourself more deeply. I do see that Ant....it just dosen't feed their little bodies.... It is through that, that we move to heal the world. It is through good actions that we heal the world.... "Love others as yourself", as an extension of what is within you, as yourself. They are you. Their suffering is your suffering. Ant...I am 20 pounds overweight ???

 

I have answered your questions. Do you see any of my valid points Antlerman?

 

Antlerman...I know I am being a pain in the ass today....I don't mean to, but I feel like I'm talking to my pastor again. The questions I had, he really could not answer. I bring these quetions forth because I really do want to hear your explaination...in all sincereity........ thanks my friend.....

[blackpudd1n]

It can't be me as I've already addressed in detail these points, repeatedly . . .

 

Things like this are the reason I'm going to have to stop visiting this section. Between this and the statements about atheists it's just too much.

Really? I'm sorry, but they don't address my points. What am I supposed to say? They do? And my statements are not about atheists, as for all intents and purposes I fit that definition as well. They are about the "hardcore" cynics. I do not equate the term Cynicism with Atheism. Many are in fact are reasonable skeptics. I'm skeptical as well. Many theists are skeptics as well. Most certainly. Don't think I equate hardcore cynicism with atheism. That is untrue. I reject those who claim it is, and hide their cynicism behind the word Atheist as a shield, as a badge of honor. Sartre would weep.

 

If you find my dislike of cynicism and rejection of the hardcore who call that simply being skeptical, something you can't take, then so be it. That is the way it is.

 

I have been thinking over a response to your repsonse to my post, but after seeing this, I don't think I'll bother, in all honesty, A-Man. Why? Because not only am I an unapologetic atheist, I'm also an unapologetic cynic. And if you dislike cynics like myself so much, then I cannot see how we are meant to be able to talk about anything, really. And this is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my original post. I'm getting tarred with the brush of your own prejudice.

 

That's right, I said prejudice. And I'm going to explain why I see it that way.

 

Cynicism is actually a perfectly valid coping mechanism. For many, it is not a natural disposition that one is born with. Neither was it for myself. It is one that is borne out of many hardships. It is a realistic frame of mind that is far from negative. It's just realistic.

 

Cynicism is the only reason I am still alive. It is where I draw my inner strength. When the chips are stacked against me, and other people would be a blubbering mess, cynicism allows me to laugh. When I laugh, I pull myself together and keep on trucking.

 

At the core of cynicism is an understanding that the world owes you nothing. You appreciate what good comes your way, understanding that your very existence does not entitle you to more good than bad in life. If you want something, you work to achieve it. If you can't be bothered doing so, don't complain about it. If something is not able to be changed, you just accept it. People can and will frequently disappoint you. You don't sit around getting upset over it, you pick yourself up and you keep on trucking. It's not like anyone owes you anything.

 

Now, here's a short list of the reasons I ended up a cynic: I have been verbally, physically, and emotionally abused by my biological mother. I was rejected by my biological father to my face the first time I met him. I have been homeless twice, once at the ripe old age of 14. I have been in foster care. I have been raped on two separate occasions, one being a gang rape. I was 16 the first time, and 17 the second. I have been divorced. I have lost my mind. I have had a hysterectomy. I have just turned 27, and this is hardly all of it.

 

But am I bitter? Far from it. I got dealt a shitty hand; remember, though, the world owes me nothing. Why did I stick around through all that? Because I laugh in the face of adversity. And I am only able to do that as a cynic. The cynic in me finds it highly amusing that numerous people have tried and failed to break me.

 

I can only gather that you have no concept of what it truly means to be a cynic. That's your problem, not mine. I'm not going to apologise for being a cynic. I'm not going to change simply because you or anyone else don't like it. You don't owe me anything, and I'll just keep on trucking.

[mymistake]

Sorry that you got so hurt from it. That wasn't my intention. Sorry again.

 

Accepted. You didn't do anything wrong. I'm frustrated by the power dynamic here. Apparently AM had punished people for the crime of voicing what I am thinking. So I don't know what I am allowed to say here. That has me on edge and apparently many of the words have had their meanings changed. I just don't know what way is up.

 

I guess I can leave this topic too now.

 

I would never ask for nor would I even want that.

 

I'm just saying that if AM wants me to believe he is an atheist he is going to have to do better than that. If he doesn't care that I think he isn't an atheist then it's all good. If he believes that the thing he call God is real (I still can't tell) his beliefs do not affect me. I'm not trying to talk him out of his beliefs. I've understood that open minded means "considering evidence that supports alternative ideas" rather than "accepting alternative ideas without evidence". But maybe the meaning of that has changed too.

[Margee]

I'm also an unapologetic cynic.

 

Cynicism is actually a perfectly valid coping mechanism. For many, it is not a natural disposition that one is born with. Neither was it for myself. It is one that is borne out of many hardships. It is a realistic frame of mind that is far from negative. It's just realistic.

 

Cynicism is the only reason I am still alive. It is where I draw my inner strength. When the chips are stacked against me, and other people would be a blubbering mess, cynicism allows me to laugh. When I laugh, I pull myself together and keep on trucking.

 

At the core of cynicism is an understanding that the world owes you nothing. You appreciate what good comes your way, understanding that your very existence does not entitle you to more good than bad in life. If you want something, you work to achieve it. If you can't be bothered doing so, don't complain about it. If something is not able to be changed, you just accept it. People can and will frequently disappoint you. You don't sit around getting upset over it, you pick yourself up and you keep on trucking. It's not like anyone owes you anything.

 

Now, here's a short list of the reasons I ended up a cynic: I have been verbally, physically, and emotionally abused by my biological mother. I was rejected by my biological father to my face the first time I met him. I have been homeless twice, once at the ripe old age of 14. I have been in foster care. I have been raped on two separate occasions, one being a gang rape. I was 16 the first time, and 17 the second. I have been divorced. I have lost my mind. I have had a hysterectomy. I have just turned 27, and this is hardly all of it.

 

But am I bitter? Far from it. I got dealt a shitty hand; remember, though, the world owes me nothing. Why did I stick around through all that? Because I laugh in the face of adversity. And I am only able to do that as a cynic. The cynic in me finds it highly amusing that numerous people have tried and failed to break me.

 

I'm not going to apologise for being a cynic.

 

Pudd..This is a five star post for me. *****

 

Nobody could have explained cynicism better than you have done here. I relate 100% to your 'story'.

In many ways..my story is so close to yours - you would not believe it.

There are things that I have never posted on EX-c. I admire your honesty and 'balls'.

 

I have changed soooo much in the last 2 years on EX-c. Some people may prefer the old whiny Margee, but she's not comin' back. I'm a bit of a 'hard ass' now. I am who I am now and it's not that bad being a friendly cynic!! Deconverting on this site has taught me tons... from the many fantastic posts that people put forth on EX .

 

I also, have been through too much and have heard faaaarrrr too many 'nasty' stories to Not be a cynic. That's why nobody's spitituallity works for me anymore. I have done my share of 'hunting' down some kind of spirituality that might make sence to me...but it ALWAYS comes up short. I ALWAYS STILL end up having far too many questions that people can't answer. I think I'm a 'realist'...a real realist, beyond what most people will accept, so I keep it to myself.

 

I think I've worked my way through the bitterness... and I just want to be a happy cynic. I'm a fighter too. It's the only way I've made it through my life also. I'm glad you got it at your age honey and not mine. Now you know that it's you who must create what you want to happen in your life and also accept at the same time, when the plan is 'frustrated' by the outside world. Outside infuences and people can 'frustrate' one's life. It's learning to deal with this fact. Maybe you can continue to teach ole' Margee a few things hon!!

 

Thanks for that input....I think my 'idendity crises' is almost over because of people like you. I will always, to the best of my ability....try to be a gentle, healthy, kind cynic. I will keep that smile on my face because it feels better than no smile and it helps a lot of other people.

 

Cynics understand other people's pain more than anyone else in the world. Cynics have the ability to help others through this world. We teach people to fight whatever they are going through. We have our own little 'spirituality' about us!!

 

So........ 'it is, what it is' to me....I'll try not to complain. Life is... heartbreak, disapointment, pain, and happiness. I'm going to steal as much happiness in my last days as I can!!

 

You go and make the best life you can for yourself hon. I'll be right behind you...kicking your arse. You kick mine when I need it....deal?? Love you Pudd!

 

.

[Antlerman]

We are God.

 

How come 'they' aren't god Ant? The little starving children or the little ones being raped? I really want a sincere answer....something that makes sense to me!! I just want to understand!

How do you assume they aren't? God, in skinny, starving disquise??.... Do you feel compassion towards them as yourself? I sure do..I support the cause of starvation..... What are you seeing within them that stirs that compassion? That they are screaming out in agony for food, water, shelter...for safety that they will never feel.....

 

As it says in that video, that part I love so much, "Love yourself so deeply, that when you see another, you see God". I'm afraid that this is where I have a very hard time.... You see that God within them and see their suffering, and experience that Compassion within yourself more deeply. I do see that Ant....it just dosen't feed their little bodies.... It is through that, that we move to heal the world. It is through good actions that we heal the world.... "Love others as yourself", as an extension of what is within you, as yourself. They are you. Their suffering is your suffering. Ant...I am 20 pounds overweight ???

 

I have answered your questions. Do you see any of my valid points Antlerman?

 

Antlerman...I know I am being a pain in the ass today....I don't mean to, but I feel like I'm talking to my pastor again. The questions I had, he really could not answer. I bring these quetions forth because I really do want to hear your explaination...in all sincereity........ thanks my friend.....

Please don't compare me with your pastor. I answered a huge amount of questions yesterday, far more posts than I normally do in a day. If I hadn't gotten back to yours it doesn't mean I'm avoided them, or somehow don't have thoughts to add. RevR offered a response to these questions, and he answered you as I would have, so I figured I didn't need to take the time on top of everything else I was dealing with. Cut me some slack here. I'm not pushing, preacher, punishing, or any such thing. I'm sharing how I see things, take it or leave it.

 

As far as the above, I cannot give you answers, or explanations. I can share with you how I see it and how I think about it. Don't look for a box, or a book, full of Answers as a substitute to finding your own answers within. This is something your pastor would never tell you. My suggestion, if you are interested, is to somehow find that place of peace in your own heart, and then through that, understand the world in ways that make sense to you. Being bitter is not coming from a place of peace. Peace does not mean you don't feel pain. That is a common error of understanding where we equate peace with happiness. That's not Peace, that's happy.

 

How I see the above, I said see God within them, you ask is God skinny and starving in disguise. I'm not sure how you imagine I mean God. You probably have some image of God as an external super being with all the power as a person, which then seems incongruous with a poor starving child. I would agree with you, if that's how I envisioned what God meant. When I heard this, "Love yourself so deeply, that when you see another, you see God", that means that heart and soul of compassion that lives within us and all living beings, even if they are in pain and misery. That still have that Light in them. It is that God in you, that sees that God in them, and sees their suffering and pain and feels a heart of compassion enough to act in whatever ways may be meaningful to help them.

 

To experience love so deeply within yourself, allows you to see others in their suffering, whereas when we are wrapped up in the drama of our own lives, focused on ourselves, our vision becomes clouded and we miss seeing that common spirit in all others in the world. Does this help?

[Deva]

Ok, i think that helps. Seriously.

 

So, if you had to align yourself, would you consider your "understanding" more atheistic, deistic or pantheistic?

The closest in regard to "God" I would relate to would be none of the above, but something you didn't mention which is panentheism. Ultimately, I am a nondualist, which means I don't believe God exists, so to speak (but not in the sense your modern atheist says this). This is very complicated to explain, but suffice to say, no categories that others are trying to put me into here are going to work. I like how the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart put this, "I pray God to make me free of God, for [His] unconditional Being is above God and all distinctions". "God beyond God" is another way to put that. I say that God is the Face we put upon the Infinite. At a point, even God dissolves away.

 

AM, this is very confusing. Nondualism and theism are not incompatible. Many Hindus and some Buddhists are both.

 

If you say you are an atheist, I respect that this is how you view yourself, but panentheism still has the word "theism" in it. It is a variety of theism, even though words may be inadequate.

[Deva]

At the core of cynicism is an understanding that the world owes you nothing. You appreciate what good comes your way, understanding that your very existence does not entitle you to more good than bad in life. If you want something, you work to achieve it. If you can't be bothered doing so, don't complain about it. If something is not able to be changed, you just accept it. People can and will frequently disappoint you. You don't sit around getting upset over it, you pick yourself up and you keep on trucking. It's not like anyone owes you anything.

 

This is a really great statement. I think what you call "cynicism" is it also detachment or is it resignation, or both? I don't have nearly the high expectations of life that I used to have, say, 20 years ago. The notion that things will get better. Change and impermanence rule.

 

You can only do so much, work so hard, then let go of the outcome.

[Margee]

We are God.

 

How come 'they' aren't god Ant? The little starving children or the little ones being raped? I really want a sincere answer....something that makes sense to me!! I just want to understand!

How do you assume they aren't? God, in skinny, starving disquise??.... Do you feel compassion towards them as yourself? I sure do..I support the cause of starvation..... What are you seeing within them that stirs that compassion? That they are screaming out in agony for food, water, shelter...for safety that they will never feel.....

 

As it says in that video, that part I love so much, "Love yourself so deeply, that when you see another, you see God". I'm afraid that this is where I have a very hard time.... You see that God within them and see their suffering, and experience that Compassion within yourself more deeply. I do see that Ant....it just dosen't feed their little bodies.... It is through that, that we move to heal the world. It is through good actions that we heal the world.... "Love others as yourself", as an extension of what is within you, as yourself. They are you. Their suffering is your suffering. Ant...I am 20 pounds overweight ???

 

I have answered your questions. Do you see any of my valid points Antlerman?

 

Antlerman...I know I am being a pain in the ass today....I don't mean to, but I feel like I'm talking to my pastor again. The questions I had, he really could not answer. I bring these quetions forth because I really do want to hear your explaination...in all sincereity........ thanks my friend.....

Please don't compare me with your pastor.

 

As far as the above, I cannot give you answers, or explanations. I can share with you how I see it and how I think about it.

Does this help?

 

You are awesome Antlerman. I admire how you try to help others. I'll say it again today...YOU are a very kind person...

If I have offended you in any way..I am truly sorry. You really do put alot of yourself (and time) into your posts.

 

I think because you cannot explain the questions I have - I cannot go any further in this 'walk' of spirituallity'. As I have said on many posts.....I will continue to be as kind and loving to the world as I can... but I am afraid that I feel the same way as Pudd.

 

We're just all a little different. We all have to do what feels best to us. I am going to continue to meditate (because it's relaxing) and treat people on earth with the greatest respect I can. This is my spirituality.

 

Thank you again for all the input you put into these posts. It has helped me immensly become who I am today and I'm OK with who I am........finally.

[Antlerman]

Really? I'm sorry, but they don't address my points. What am I supposed to say? They do? And my statements are not about atheists, as for all intents and purposes I fit that definition as well. They are about the "hardcore" cynics. I do not equate the term Cynicism with Atheism. Many are in fact are reasonable skeptics. I'm skeptical as well. Many theists are skeptics as well. Most certainly. Don't think I equate hardcore cynicism with atheism. That is untrue. I reject those who claim it is, and hide their cynicism behind the word Atheist as a shield, as a badge of honor. Sartre would weep.

 

If you find my dislike of cynicism and rejection of the hardcore who call that simply being skeptical, something you can't take, then so be it. That is the way it is.

 

I have been thinking over a response to your repsonse to my post, but after seeing this, I don't think I'll bother, in all honesty, A-Man. Why? Because not only am I an unapologetic atheist, I'm also an unapologetic cynic. And if you dislike cynics like myself so much, then I cannot see how we are meant to be able to talk about anything, really. And this is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my original post. I'm getting tarred with the brush of your own prejudice.

Pudd, I'm not tarring you with a brush here. I actually don't see what you describe that follows this as cynicism. Certainly I'm sorry for the pain you've suffered in your life, but I would say you've found a way through all that to grow a thick skin, to protect yourself in ways that allow you to not be cynical. That's how I hear this. If you were cynical you would have shut down any and all trust, your mind would close like a steel trap to anything that wasn't how you'd learned to see thing. That's cynicism to me, and it is not a healthy response, but an unhealthy one. It goes from being vulnerable to be closed off. I do not see that in you. I would say you have developed a good deal of healthy skepticism, which I think is positive and good. My sincere kudos to you for this.

 

My entire criticism you read above, and that's what that was, not a "punishment" (nobody's gotten banned here), is that line between healthy skepticism versus cynicism in this discussion here in this thread. Surely, if you were a moderator who wanted in these discussions to allow people to discuss together respectably at the table, the presence of those who are closed-minded (I'll use that term if your married to your idea of what a cynic is - you don't consider yourself closed-minded, I assume), is generally annoying and disruptive to discussions. All that do is sit and wait to find a vulnerability so they can exploit it to prove the other person wrong, "Where's your evidence for this God you claim exists", is not a discussion. It's trying to prove the other person wrong, and themselves right. Surely you can be sympathetic of this and see that as reasonable that I find that a problem for peole in these discussions?

 

Yes, even the "hardcore" to use that term that someone gave me to describe themselves with, have a right to shout it from the heavens - but not at this table. This is not the appropriate venue for a parade. And I do say that as a moderator whose job it is to facilitate a good balance. It would be great that everyone supported that, rather than complaining and attacking the 'authority', sort of response.

 

Again Pudd, I don't see you this way, and I'm sorry if in the past you felt I brushed stroked you as a "hardcore". I really don't see you that way, and respect a healthy skepticism in all of us. We all need to be that, but not the point we don't allow others to have their voice too. Agreed?

[Antlerman]

Please don't compare me with your pastor.

 

As far as the above, I cannot give you answers, or explanations. I can share with you how I see it and how I think about it.

Does this help?

I think because you cannot explain the questions I have - I cannot go any further in this 'walk' of spirituallity'.

I hear you saying you wanted me to be your pastor and give you those answers. Because I can't, this isn't the path for you. I think you missed what I said that was the entire centerpiece of my comments. That was this: "Don't look for a box, or a book, full of Answers as a substitute to finding your own answers within."

 

If what you are looking for is answers from some authority outside yourself, you will never find your own inner peace. It is that simple. It has to come from within you. I'm happy you don't think I have the answers! I don't for you. You do. And the pursuit of that - is - a spiritual path. Yours.

[Margee]

Please don't compare me with your pastor.

 

As far as the above, I cannot give you answers, or explanations. I can share with you how I see it and how I think about it.

Does this help?

I think because you cannot explain the questions I have - I cannot go any further in this 'walk' of spirituallity'.

I hear you saying you wanted me to be your pastor and give you those answers. Because I can't, this isn't the path for you. I think you missed what I said that was the entire centerpiece of my comments. That was this: "Don't look for a box, or a book, full of Answers as a substitute to finding your own answers within."

 

If what you are looking for is answers from some authority outside yourself, you will never find your own inner peace. It is that simple. It has to come from within you. I'm happy you don't think I have the answers! I don't for you. You do. And the pursuit of that - is - a spiritual path. Yours.

 

 

 

I got that real good Antlerman, what you just said......You are right on today!! I guess I am really done with looking to outside authority!! So I am on the right road!! Thanks so much my friend!

[Antlerman]

Ok, i think that helps. Seriously.

 

So, if you had to align yourself, would you consider your "understanding" more atheistic, deistic or pantheistic?

The closest in regard to "God" I would relate to would be none of the above, but something you didn't mention which is panentheism. Ultimately, I am a nondualist, which means I don't believe God exists, so to speak (but not in the sense your modern atheist says this). This is very complicated to explain, but suffice to say, no categories that others are trying to put me into here are going to work. I like how the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart put this, "I pray God to make me free of God, for [His] unconditional Being is above God and all distinctions". "God beyond God" is another way to put that. I say that God is the Face we put upon the Infinite. At a point, even God dissolves away.

 

AM, this is very confusing. Nondualism and theism are not incompatible. Many Hindus and some Buddhists are both.

 

If you say you are an atheist, I respect that this is how you view yourself, but panentheism still has the word "theism" in it. It is a variety of theism, even though words may be inadequate.

I know this Deva. You know this. But how do you describe it to someone who doesn't? "I believe and not-believe in God"? That would be correct. I don't call myself an atheist for many reasons, but my point to that is that how atheism is defined in our culture, by atheists themselves, would apply to me. I don't believe in a God in the way they define God. To them, that is God. I don't believe that either, so that makes me an atheist. When the gnu-atheists try to extend that to say "all gods, everywhere", but then when asked to describe 'all gods everywhere', they all look like the same Christian deity form, they reject, that makes me an atheist too. But when I say things like I'm saying, they say "that's not God, that's just redefining words", again... that makes me 'not believe' like them. So what am I?

[Antlerman]

I got that real good Antlerman, what you just said......You are right on today!! I guess I am really done with looking to outside authority!! So I am on the right road!! Thanks so much my friend!

Yes, exactly. Don't look to me or others for your answers. I'm glad I could be of help to let this realization come to light for you. That's really all anything I am saying here is about. Spark some thoughts, point out some things, and if something clicks for you, then great. You're on your way.

[Margee]

I got that real good Antlerman, what you just said......You are right on today!! I guess I am really done with looking to outside authority!! So I am on the right road!! Thanks so much my friend!

Yes, exactly. Don't look to me or others for your answers. I'm glad I could be of help to let this realization come to light for you. That's really all anything I am saying here is about. Spark some thoughts, point out some things, and if something clicks for you, then great. You're on your way.

 

 

[Antlerman]

I'm just saying that if AM wants me to believe he is an atheist he is going to have to do better than that.

I think you want to define me as something, which is why I asked you to define God and see if I fit your definition of an atheist. You never offered a reply to that.

 

If he believes that the thing he call God is real (I still can't tell) his beliefs do not affect me. I'm not trying to talk him out of his beliefs.

As a correction, I don't have beliefs in the way you understand the meaning of that word in a religious context. I have what I would call frameworks of language, visualizations, etc, in order to attempt to look at and talk about direct experiences. That's very different than beliefs. I do not believe those frameworks are the truth. I can just as easily create them as dismantle them. You see how that doesn't fit anything you're familiar with as "beliefs"?

 

I've understood that open minded means "considering evidence that supports alternative ideas" rather than "accepting alternative ideas without evidence". But maybe the meaning of that has changed too.

Yeah, I think what I said above applies here as well. These are not about finding the facts of things, where evidence demands apply. These are interpretive frameworks of inner experience. That demand for evidence is misplaced and inappropriate in that domain, just like demanding your girlfriend prove her love she says she experiences for you. To demand evidence means you can't "hear" the truth in her expressions. Where does the shortcoming lay? You do see the differences here?

[mcdaddy]

Come off it, AM.

 

Everybody in this room knows you're a closet a-panen-non-theist-trans-existent-polydeist!

 

[blackpudd1n]

Really? I'm sorry, but they don't address my points. What am I supposed to say? They do? And my statements are not about atheists, as for all intents and purposes I fit that definition as well. They are about the "hardcore" cynics. I do not equate the term Cynicism with Atheism. Many are in fact are reasonable skeptics. I'm skeptical as well. Many theists are skeptics as well. Most certainly. Don't think I equate hardcore cynicism with atheism. That is untrue. I reject those who claim it is, and hide their cynicism behind the word Atheist as a shield, as a badge of honor. Sartre would weep.

 

If you find my dislike of cynicism and rejection of the hardcore who call that simply being skeptical, something you can't take, then so be it. That is the way it is.

 

I have been thinking over a response to your repsonse to my post, but after seeing this, I don't think I'll bother, in all honesty, A-Man. Why? Because not only am I an unapologetic atheist, I'm also an unapologetic cynic. And if you dislike cynics like myself so much, then I cannot see how we are meant to be able to talk about anything, really. And this is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my original post. I'm getting tarred with the brush of your own prejudice.

Pudd, I'm not tarring you with a brush here. I actually don't see what you describe that follows this as cynicism. Certainly I'm sorry for the pain you've suffered in your life, but I would say you've found a way through all that to grow a thick skin, to protect yourself in ways that allow you to not be cynical. That's how I hear this. If you were cynical you would have shut down any and all trust, your mind would close like a steel trap to anything that wasn't how you'd learned to see thing. That's cynicism to me, and it is not a healthy response, but an unhealthy one. It goes from being vulnerable to be closed off. I do not see that in you. I would say you have developed a good deal of healthy skepticism, which I think is positive and good. My sincere kudos to you for this.

 

My entire criticism you read above, and that's what that was, not a "punishment" (nobody's gotten banned here), is that line between healthy skepticism versus cynicism in this discussion here in this thread. Surely, if you were a moderator who wanted in these discussions to allow people to discuss together respectably at the table, the presence of those who are closed-minded (I'll use that term if your married to your idea of what a cynic is - you don't consider yourself closed-minded, I assume), is generally annoying and disruptive to discussions. All that do is sit and wait to find a vulnerability so they can exploit it to prove the other person wrong, "Where's your evidence for this God you claim exists", is not a discussion. It's trying to prove the other person wrong, and themselves right. Surely you can be sympathetic of this and see that as reasonable that I find that a problem for peole in these discussions?

 

Yes, even the "hardcore" to use that term that someone gave me to describe themselves with, have a right to shout it from the heavens - but not at this table. This is not the appropriate venue for a parade. And I do say that as a moderator whose job it is to facilitate a good balance. It would be great that everyone supported that, rather than complaining and attacking the 'authority', sort of response.

 

Again Pudd, I don't see you this way, and I'm sorry if in the past you felt I brushed stroked you as a "hardcore". I really don't see you that way, and respect a healthy skepticism in all of us. We all need to be that, but not the point we don't allow others to have their voice too. Agreed?

 

From the Collins Concise Australian Dictionary, 7th Edition, 2008: cynic (n) a person who believes the worst about people or the outcome of events.

 

That's me. I was a cynic long before I was a sceptic. I always hope for a good outcome, or the best in people. But I am aware and I accept that there is a bad outcome and everyone has bad within them. Without being cynical, I would not prepare also for the bad, and have a back-up plan should things go bad. It's got nothing to do with being close-minded or sceptical. It's just realistic.

 

If you accept the worst may occur, then the worst occuring does not surprise you nor upset you as much.

 

And I am a cynic. My dear psychiatric nurse-practitioner has told me many a time. Not that he sees any issue with it, however. Because of it, I have dealt with the various traumas I have suffered very well, and failed to develop Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as a result. With my childhood, I was also a prime candidate for Borderline Personality Disorder. But I was just too cynical lol. It sure makes life easier for him- he's only got to keep tabs on one disorder, being bipolar, than a potential three disorders. You see where the cynic laughs, now?

 

You've got the wrong idea about us cynics. My personal worldview is uninterested in the validity of your claims regarding meditation or anything else. That belongs to the realm of scepticism. A cynic is not necessarily a sceptic. But a cynic can be both.

 

The main point is, though, that I am an individual. Regardless of the labels I carry, female, feminist, atheist, bipolarity, cynic, childless, animal lover, cheese lover... I am an individual. Just like every other female, feminist, atheist, bipolar, cynic, childless, animal lover, cheese lover. Someone else could hold all of those exact same labels, and still be a very different person to I. To lump any group of people together and proclaim a disliking of that group on the basis of one label they may carry is the essence of prejudice. Trying to redefine a label for one person so that you don't lump them in with all the rest and can have something to do with them is the essence of cognitive dissonance. We all have our biases and prejudices, and some are harder to overcome than others. But recognising that we hold them is the first step to overcoming them and leads to what I refer to as "enlightenment": taking each person as they come, on the basis of who they are and their actions, rather than any label they may hold.

[pandora]

I'm rather cynical myself. That is pretty cool that you have been through so much and still come out pretty decent. But when it comes to spiritual matters, I try to remain open. *runs to facebook to get a recent post of a friend* Being a cynic of anything spiritual or non-scientific essentially amounts to claiming one knows something they don't. The following quote was from a friend who used to post on here, but went back to evangelicalism, and even Islam for a while. He is taking some religion courses at the University and is loving it, and he has finally freed himself from all woo. Don't take the term "god" in the quote too seriously... think of god as the unknown.

 

"Faith is a constant, existential awareness of objective reality as only one of many possibilities; both God and man have the power of breaking reality. In exercising his imagination, man meets God."

-Avivah Gottlieb Zornberg

 

What struck me about that was the "existential awareness as objective reality as only one of many possibilities." Our imaginations makes us better people.

 

People like Antlerman are no threat to me, and I can greatly empathisize with his views. I think it is important to realize it is possible we are more than the sum of our biological parts, and what that may imply for our sense of humanity and life. I don't believe in woo, because whatever exists, exists. Just because we don't know how to scientifically describe some phenomenon doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Consciousness is still a mystery and I think that is the part of existence that could be more than the apparent sum of our physical brain. The explanation could be in some complex math we have not yet been able to describe, or in some physical phenomenon or force (if you will) that we haven't explained well enough. Obviously, it requres a brain to exist, so once you die, your personal awareness of anything dies with it. That is where I let my imagination run wild, and I have great fun doing it. I'm still cynical enough to not subscribe to anything or practice anything other than basic meditation, or even have a belief, but I do think that a sense of openness and imagination makes one's life much richer. That is probably the religion and philosophy major in me.

[Antlerman]

I really don't want to go down the road of arguing symantics, citing this dictionary versus that dictionary (as what Hans and others have already linked to happen to agree with the way I used the term). But the point you make about not labeling a person is valid. I don't believe we should label ourselves either. So when I used the term cynic to describe someone who's shut off from discussion, you don't need to assume I meant you. Just as I don't think when someone says belief in God is stupid, that affects me. I judge myself, and you judge yourself. I'm not judging you.

 

The only thing I will look at is a certain type of behavior, and that comes to what I said about my expectations as a moderator. I asked if you can see that as reasonable. Do you? That is the most salient point I care to convey here.

 

P.S. I used to use the term cynical for myself, but eventually I disliked calling myself anything.