What If Tarot Is Real?

[Astreja]

"Fail to understand" is the story of your life.

 

Now, now... No fair quote-mining the quote-miner.  

[mymistake]

Oh that was a cheap shot on my part, but I wanted to convey the special contempt I have for truth-bending fundamentalists after hearing their nonsense for months.  I use to try to reach Clay with reason and argument.  I can only put up with the willful ignorance for so long.

 

 

Of course if we get into a time machine there was a point where I was almost exactly like him.  Most christians remind me of myself only ten years ago but in Clay's case we would have to go all the way back to when I was still a sophomore in high school and earning "A"s in my Christian High Bible class.  I was so arrogant, rude and self-centered back then.  Delusional goes without saying because I thought I was pursuing the fruit of the spirit by asking my imaginary friend to do everything for me.  "Not my worthless effort but only Your will Lord".

 

 

Who knows?  Maybe a few more decades of not understanding and Clay too can stumble upon the truth and be set free of Christian slavery.

[Guest r3alchild]

Clay is alright, I already said I like him/her and I stand by that comment. If anything we have to show clay that we give a shit and not resort to dirty tatics the cult people use. I would hate to think that if clay deconverts much later on he/she wont trust ex-c to get help and healing, as we all needed once.

[florduh]

Most of us were similarly brainwashed at one time. We can empathize, but damn if some of it doesn't get on your nerves!

[Thackerie]

 

The degree people will go to reject God never ceases to amaze me.

 

 

 

Are you being deliberately dense here? I can't believe you are actually a stupid person.

 

 

I can! This guy is an absolute dunce. He's sofa king stupid that he thinks we actually believe in bible god and the christian crap but pretend otherwise. He's got to be one of the stupidest christains we've ever encountered here, and that's saying a lot.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

The degree people will go to reject God never ceases to amaze me.

 

 

Are you being deliberately dense here? I can't believe you are actually a stupid person.

 

I can! This guy is an absolute dunce. He's sofa king stupid that he thinks we actually believe in bible god and the christian crap but pretend otherwise. He's got to be one of the stupidest christains we've ever encountered here, and that's saying a lot.

[florduh]

 

 

The degree people will go to reject God never ceases to amaze me.

 

 

 

Are you being deliberately dense here? I can't believe you are actually a stupid person.

 

 

I can! This guy is an absolute dunce. He's sofa king stupid that he thinks we actually believe in bible god and the christian crap but pretend otherwise. He's got to be one of the stupidest christains we've ever encountered here, and that's saying a lot.

 

Extremely dug in, but I wouldn't necessarily say "stupid." He is in so deep we can't even communicate effectively. He has his own intractable definition of what Ex-Christians are and what they believe. I can't get past his incorrect definitions and understanding of things like that. I don't expect to change his mind, but it would be nice if at least he understood what we are saying. I'm actually not sure at this point if he's sincere, a troll, or a poe.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

 

 

The degree people will go to reject God never ceases to amaze me.

 

 

Are you being deliberately dense here? I can't believe you are actually a stupid person.

I can! This guy is an absolute dunce. He's sofa king stupid that he thinks we actually believe in bible god and the christian crap but pretend otherwise. He's got to be one of the stupidest christains we've ever encountered here, and that's saying a lot.

Extremely dug in, but I wouldn't necessarily say "stupid." He is in so deep we can't even communicate effectively. He has his own intractable definition of what Ex-Christians are and what they believe. I can't get past his incorrect definitions and understanding of things like that. I don't expect to change his mind, but it would be nice if at least he understood what we are saying. I'm actually not sure at this point if he's sincere, a troll, or a poe.

Christians usually come in trinity's.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fact , no one including you bases their lives on all empirical evidence. Anyone who tells you this is either lying or an internet parrot.

 

So how do you determine what is true?

 

 

The same faulty, subjective, hit-and-miss process that I would imagine you use.  If I imagine wrongly, then please correct me.  After all I've admitted to being genuinely puzzled about certain aspects of your behavior and this is another area of puzzlement on my part.  I've also stated that I'm serious about this, so I'll re-state and confirm that.

 

 

How do you determine what is true?  What is your starting point?  How do you compensate for our all-too-obvious human biases?  

 

BAA

 

I build a belief structure through reason and evidence. This leaves gaps, but does provide a sound infrastructure. I either live with the gaps as inconsequential because of my belief structure or I pursue them further. I may never come to a good conclusion.

 

The net result for me is:

1) I believe in and worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

2) I have areas I don't understand and that is fine.

 

 

Thank you for your response Clay.

 

However, it contains information about you that I was already aware of.  You will also have known that I already knew these things about you.  Unless you missed post #198 (quoted below in blue text) you would also have been aware that I'm addressing you on the level and looking to you for more than that which I already know.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ok then Clay, I won't drag anyone else into this and I'll offer up only myself as an example.

 

Let's say that you're right and that I'm shit scared, just as you say I am.  And that I'll jump thru absurd hoops to avoid believing in the supernatural.  Now, if I admit to this and own up to these things, do you have any further input to make on my behalf or is that it?  I'm scared shitless and you're finished with me or I'm scared shitless and there's something else?

 

Please note that I'm not ****ing around here, Clay.  I see that you're deadly serious and I'll match that seriousness.  But I'm also genuinely puzzled by your persistence and equally puzzled as to the reason for it.  Is it your job to scare me and leave me hanging in terror or does your job involve something else?

 

"Yes, my job involves something else." ...would be an accurate but unhelpful response from you.  So, seeing as I am serious I'm going to place myself in a vulnerable position and ask you to please be helpful towards me.  Please help me understand why you are here and what you are doing... because I currently understand neither.

 

I await your (hopefully) helpful response.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading the above Clay, you'll now be aware that I'm genuinely and earnestly looking to understand how you think.  So a reply that simply re-hashes what I already know about you, even though it fulfills the letter of my request, does nothing to match the spirit in which I put the questions to you.  Therefore, still hoping that you can find it within youself to respond to me with more than the most rigid adherence to the letter of my requests, I look forward to two specific responses from you. 

 

Firstly, a point-by-point reply to post #198, quoted above. 

 

Secondly, a more informative response to these questions.

 

How do you determine what is true? 

What is your starting point? 

How do you compensate for our all-too-obvious human biases? 

 

I know that you have the capacity within you to fully understand what I mean in these questions and that you also have the ability to compensate for any lack of clarity on my part.  I know that you also have the time and the opportunity to respond to these questions with far more detail and far greater levels of explanation than you've so far displayed. 

 

If there is something that is holding you back and preventing you from being more forthcoming and more helpful - then I simply do not know what that is.

 

Now, having outlined my position as fully as I believe I'm able to, I await your response.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Actually I though I did answer your questions. They were general questions after all. Are you asking for a specific example? I can do that if you like.

 

You are the one who has went on some mission to find where I've posted all over the internet, which is fine by me, btw, but you must of noticed I've went into detail in many places on many subjects so my approach seems pretty clear. I do in fact combine science, reason and faith.

 

 

Ok then.  One specific example.

 

Please describe the reason/s why you post in this forum, taking no less than five hundred words to do so, none of these words coming from any other source than yourself.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

I think you are being disingenuous. Why I post on here does not answer the question of how I determine truth.

 

 

Clay, 

 

You do me a disservice by my thinking that I'm being disingenuous.  

 

Acts 16:25 - 29

 

²⁵ About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. ²⁶ Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose. ²⁷ The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. ²⁸ But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!”

²⁹ The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. ³⁰ He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

 

Paul and Silas could see and hear that the jailer was being genuine and they honored his request there and then.  

 

³¹ They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” ³² Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. ³³ At that hour of the nightthe jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. ³⁴ The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.

 

But you cannot see and hear that I'm being genuine with you, as they saw and heard with him.  Therefore, I readily acknowledge that things are much more difficult for you.  All you have to go on is my assurance that I am being genuine.  In this forum I can give you no more than that.  Please note that I acknowledge that this passage of scripture is not a direct comparison of our relationship.  I cite it to draw a parallel.  That is all, ok?

 

I certainly hope you don't think that what I'm typing now is just another example of the endless bullshit spewed by an anti-Christian.  Or that this message is just another vitriolic attack by me on that which you hold sacred.  I assure you that this is not the case.

 

As I wrote recently, I just can't figure you out and I long to know how you can be so certain about things that seem to me to be beyond the scope of human investigation.  I'm also struggling to understand why you seem to be unwilling to meet me even halfway on anything.  Please note that this is how it seems to me - if I've misrepresented you in any way, I'm sorry.  If you wish to rebuke me about this, that's fine ...but can you not find it within yourself to do more than just rebuke and/or correct me? 

 

If love always protects, always trusts, always hopes and always perseveres... am I so very wrong and wicked and malicious to ask you to trust me, when I appeal to you on the level, like this?

 

Ok, let's suppose that this message doesn't conform to your standards of logic and/or doesn't meet your any of your standards at all. What then?   Emotionally-driven appeals rarely make a whole deal sense, wouldn't you agree?  So, if I fall short of what you require (what that is I cannot fathom) and you won't say what your requirements for a compassionate reply are - where does that leave me?  The answer would seem to be... lost.  

 

Is there nothing that I can write that will soften your attitude towards me?

 

In hope,

 

BAA

[stryper]

 

or perhaps in the case of tarot they are allowing access to natural parts of us that we have yet to quantify.  

 

Or perhaps people will jump through absurd hoops to avoid believing in the supernatural because deep down it scares the shit out of them.

 

 

 

Many times OC I find your posts and replies to be just shy of a strawman argument, in the case you do have a partial point. 

 

I doubt very seriously that it is jumping through absurd hoops to avoid believing.    For those of a scientific mind,  there is little evidence that is repeatable and quantifiable to justify a  things like tarot or psychics. 

 

The point I will concede is the scare the shit out of them part.  When you open the door to self exploration, it is terrifying.  This is because you strip away the lies you have told yourself about yourself all your life.   Most people are not able to deal with the petty cruelities they have inflicted on those they love.  Some are so tied up in the indoctrination and imprinting from parents that they simply cannot see beyond it.  

 

It is easy for most christians to jump on what I am saying and say see thus you need to be saved or some other bullshit. 

 

The reality is life is a learning process.  You make  mistakes.  You hopefully learn and grow from them. It is also most difficult to admit that those that harmed you in the past were facing the same issues you did.  My father reacted the way he did because he was choosing as best he could with where he was at in his development at the time.  That doesn't mean it excuses his actions.  It also doesn't mean that I have to allow him in my life now as an adult.  Just making that acknowledgement after years of hatred was a difficult thing to do.

 

You can imagine how someone whose entire definition of self is based off what someone else did to them would have a hard time.  Changing how you define yourself means tearing down all that was there before.  Most are scared shitless of doing that, so they don't. 

[mymistake]

Clay is alright, I already said I like him/her and I stand by that comment. If anything we have to show clay that we give a shit and not resort to dirty tatics the cult people use. I would hate to think that if clay deconverts much later on he/she wont trust ex-c to get help and healing, as we all needed once.

 

 

Let's give it a few years and see if you feel the same way about an unchanging Ordinary Clay.  Generally I do give theists a chance.  They have to earn my contempt by consistently behaving the way JayL, OC, or Thumbelina behaves. 

 

But they can change.  I'm proud of the way End3 has improved over the years.  I feel like End has learned to respect us.  If OC (or any of the others) would do that much I would stop having contempt for him.  They don't have to stop believing in Jesus to impress me.  All I want to see is for them to mellow out and keep the offensive nonsense to themselves.  If they want to be Christ-like that is their business.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

Clay is alright, I already said I like him/her and I stand by that comment. If anything we have to show clay that we give a shit and not resort to dirty tatics the cult people use. I would hate to think that if clay deconverts much later on he/she wont trust ex-c to get help and healing, as we all needed once.

 

Let's give it a few years and see if you feel the same way about an unchanging Ordinary Clay. Generally I do give theists a chance. They have to earn my contempt by consistently behaving the way JayL, OC, or Thumbelina behaves.

 

But they can change. I'm proud of the way End3 has improved over the years. I feel like End has learned to respect us. If OC (or any of the others) would do that much I would stop having contempt for him. They don't have to stop believing in Jesus to impress me. All I want to see is for them to mellow out and keep the offensive nonsense to themselves. If they want to be Christ-like that is their business.

Don't worry my friend I am a sucker for hard luck cases.

[mcdaddy]

http://anarchycamp.tumblr.com/image/38587449152

[new2me]

 

 

or perhaps in the case of tarot they are allowing access to natural parts of us that we have yet to quantify.  

 

Or perhaps people will jump through absurd hoops to avoid believing in the supernatural because deep down it scares the shit out of them.

 

 

 

Many times OC I find your posts and replies to be just shy of a strawman argument, in the case you do have a partial point. 

 

I doubt very seriously that it is jumping through absurd hoops to avoid believing.    For those of a scientific mind,  there is little evidence that is repeatable and quantifiable to justify a  things like tarot or psychics. 

 

The point I will concede is the scare the shit out of them part.  When you open the door to self exploration, it is terrifying.  This is because you strip away the lies you have told yourself about yourself all your life.   Most people are not able to deal with the petty cruelities they have inflicted on those they love.  Some are so tied up in the indoctrination and imprinting from parents that they simply cannot see beyond it.  

 

It is easy for most christians to jump on what I am saying and say see thus you need to be saved or some other bullshit. 

 

The reality is life is a learning process.  You make  mistakes.  You hopefully learn and grow from them. It is also most difficult to admit that those that harmed you in the past were facing the same issues you did.  My father reacted the way he did because he was choosing as best he could with where he was at in his development at the time.  That doesn't mean it excuses his actions.  It also doesn't mean that I have to allow him in my life now as an adult.  Just making that acknowledgement after years of hatred was a difficult thing to do.

 

You can imagine how someone whose entire definition of self is based off what someone else did to them would have a hard time.  Changing how you define yourself means tearing down all that was there before.  Most are scared shitless of doing that, so they don't. 

 

In my case, I was scared to death at first when I realized that Christianity was not real.  It was terrifying to discover that there was no supernatural entity guiding my life and protecting me from all the bad stuff out there in the universe.  For years, I jumped through absurd hoops to justify my belief in God and/or the supernatural.  Once I recognized the absurdities and accepted reality, everything in the world suddenly made sense for the first time ever.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

If you are not convinced that you have misrepresented posts, intentional or not, I know where I could find at least one example. I'll site the web page and the post number in the thread for you to see, if you would like me to.

 

Sure, I'll take a look at it.

 

 

 

Here it is:

 

 

buffettphan, on 21 Apr 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

 

Quote

A consequence of an action is not extortion. Damnation is a consequence of a free will choice people make. If a father tells their child not to stick their hand in the fire the father is not extorting anything from the child.

 

 

 

 

Even if our children disobey us, I don't know a human parent who would force the child to keep his hand on the hot fire for all eternity.  

 

That's your evil god's specialty.  

 

 

So fuck him and fuck anyone who tries to influence me into worshiping such a monster.  Short of brain-damage, I could never worship him again.  If he "appeared" before me, I would doubt my own sanity and would check myself into a mental hospital -- pronto! 

 

What child in their right mind would hate their parent for telling them not to drink and drive.

 

 

 

 

This instance of you misrepresenting a post can be found here: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/56386-would-you-ever-submit-and-worship-god/page-4

 

 

The exact post is #69.

 

If this isn't misrepresenting, hopefully it was unintentional if it was, then what else do you call it?

 

I suppose it is possible that the message was not communicated clearly enough for you so you could have done it unintentionally, but what I get from this is you think that damnation is a consequence, just like a child getting burned from touching a hot stove. Someone else tried to tell you that the Bible's idea of damnation is forcing the child to keep their hand stuck on the hot stove, burning forever, just because they touched it, despite being told not to.

 

 

Extremely dug in, but I wouldn't necessarily say "stupid." He is in so deep we can't even communicate effectively. He has his own intractable definition of what Ex-Christians are and what they believe. I can't get past his incorrect definitions and understanding of things like that. I don't expect to change his mind, but it would be nice if at least he understood what we are saying. I'm actually not sure at this point if he's sincere, a troll, or a poe.

 

 

Maybe he is schizophrenic and the voice in his head keeps telling him that we hate his god so much that we are extremely desperate to deny the existence of his god so we would not need to feel afraid of him. Maybe he's just a very confused individual.

[stryper]

 

In my case, I was scared to death at first when I realized that Christianity was not real.  It was terrifying to discover that there was no supernatural entity guiding my life and protecting me from all the bad stuff out there in the universe.  For years, I jumped through absurd hoops to justify my belief in God and/or the supernatural.  Once I recognized the absurdities and accepted reality, everything in the world suddenly made sense for the first time ever.

 

 

That is the case for many on here New2Me.   OC obviously excluded. 

 

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

So let's say, for argument's sake, that Christianity is real.

 

Wait... which Christianity?  There are thousands of different sects, and most disagree on the most fundamental levels.  Add that to the fact that what we may call Christianity now is practiced quite differently than 1000 years ago.  So were they 'right'?  Or is it 'right' now? And how are we supposed to know?

First, Just because their are many beliefs does not in any way mean the truth does not exist. It's absurd to think so. IOW, you cannot deduce that none are correct simply because there are many beliefs. Second, it is categorically untrue that most denominations disagree on a fundamental level. Third,The idea that one cannot find truth in uncertainty is also bogus. Every human lives their entire life making decisions under uncertainty.

 

You know, it is this kind of thinking that just stuns me. It is scary to think people left Christ because of such fallacious reasoning.

 

OC, here is an instance of your misrepresenting someone else's post.  New2me did not say that truth does not exist.  She also did not say that one cannot find truth in uncertainty.  When you go on to talk about "this kind of thinking," there can be no reference of your phrase "this kind" except the content of what new2me wrote, and what others might write who you imagine share the views you impute to her.

[ContraBardus]

So you are saying you were brain dead? You are being vague about what you consider death. If your blood was not oxygenated your brain would have been damaged. I think all you are saying is that you were on the verge of death and they resuscitated you.

 

BTW - I do agree some people claim they experience NDEs when near death, hence the term Near Death Experience.

 

 

Yes, my brain and entire respiratory system shut down. I was dead, not on the verge of death. It takes a few minutes for the brain to become damaged even in that situation for the exact same reason you don't drown immediately when you dunk your head underwater.

[ContraBardus]

 

 

 

 

 

OC has misrepresented someone's post, as he's done with this one of yours, many, many times.

 

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts. They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

 

Intentionally or not, you have misrepresented posts before in the past but we certainly don't see ourselves as victims, or at least, I don't.

Perhaps some people here wanted to believe I misrepresented posts. Perhaps some people here can't communicate clearly and imagined they said one thing when they said another. Perhaps I ignore parts of posts because they were rambling rants. Perhaps I ignore strawmen and red herrings. Perhaps I ignore long boring posts where people don't say anything to the point.

 

If you are not convinced that you have misrepresented posts, intentional or not, I know where I could find at least one example. I'll site the web page and the post number in the thread for you to see, if you would like me to.

Sure, I'll take a look at it.

 

 The entire first few pages of your replies to me [pages 9-13 or so] are explicit examples of you intentionally misrepresenting the statements of others and twisting their words rather than responding to the actual content of the post. You kept suggesting that I was somehow 'redefining' the word Supernatural to fit some worldview or belief when I was simply stating that it is a misnomer and rather nonsensical. There was no way it was not intentional misrepresentation as it was explicitly clarified multiple times, yet you kept insisting I was saying something I clearly was not. I outright said I was making a grammatical observation about the word multiple times and you kept being an idiot and trying to twist the words to fit the argument you wanted to make rather than responding to the actual content of my posts.

 

You've seriously got to be a huge idiot to try and pull this shit with about 18 pages of verifiable evidence that you are intentionally doing exactly that in the very same thread you were dumb enough to post 'nuh-uh. I do not' in.

 

[mymistake]

 

So you are saying you were brain dead? You are being vague about what you consider death. If your blood was not oxygenated your brain would have been damaged. I think all you are saying is that you were on the verge of death and they resuscitated you.

 

BTW - I do agree some people claim they experience NDEs when near death, hence the term Near Death Experience.

 

 

Yes, my brain and entire respiratory system shut down. It takes a few minutes for the brain to become damaged even in that situation for the exact same reason you don't drown immediately when you dunk your head underwater.

 

 

 

Forgive me if you already covered this somewhere in the first 15 pages but what was that like?  Did you get any kind of a dream or such out of the event?

[ContraBardus]

 

 

So you are saying you were brain dead? You are being vague about what you consider death. If your blood was not oxygenated your brain would have been damaged. I think all you are saying is that you were on the verge of death and they resuscitated you.

 

BTW - I do agree some people claim they experience NDEs when near death, hence the term Near Death Experience.

 

 

Yes, my brain and entire respiratory system shut down. It takes a few minutes for the brain to become damaged even in that situation for the exact same reason you don't drown immediately when you dunk your head underwater.

 

 

 

Forgive me if you already covered this somewhere in the first 15 pages but what was that like?  Did you get any kind of a dream or such out of the event?

 

 

I did, and nope. No dreams or anything, I was just gone. That's hard to explain really, I remember a brief second or two darkness just before I 'shut down', and then another second or two of total darkness again right before the world faded back in. My hearing came back first then my eyes did. Both came back quickly but gradually, being blurry and muddy before clearing up.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

So you are saying you were brain dead? You are being vague about what you consider death. If your blood was not oxygenated your brain would have been damaged. I think all you are saying is that you were on the verge of death and they resuscitated you.

 

BTW - I do agree some people claim they experience NDEs when near death, hence the term Near Death Experience.

 

 

Yes, my brain and entire respiratory system shut down. It takes a few minutes for the brain to become damaged even in that situation for the exact same reason you don't drown immediately when you dunk your head underwater.

 

 

 

Forgive me if you already covered this somewhere in the first 15 pages but what was that like?  Did you get any kind of a dream or such out of the event?

 

 

I did, and nope. No dreams or anything, I was just gone. That's hard to explain really, I remember a brief second or two darkness just before I 'shut down', and then another second or two of total darkness again right before the world faded back in. My hearing came back first then my eyes did. Both came back quickly but gradually, being blurry and muddy before clearing up.

 

 

Just as valid as any other NDE.  Thanks for sharing.

[Thackerie]

 

Clay is alright, I already said I like him/her and I stand by that comment. If anything we have to show clay that we give a shit and not resort to dirty tatics the cult people use. I would hate to think that if clay deconverts much later on he/she wont trust ex-c to get help and healing, as we all needed once.

 

 

Let's give it a few years and see if you feel the same way about an unchanging Ordinary Clay.  Generally I do give theists a chance.  They have to earn my contempt by consistently behaving the way JayL, OC, or Thumbelina behaves. 

 

But they can change.  I'm proud of the way End3 has improved over the years.  I feel like End has learned to respect us.  If OC (or any of the others) would do that much I would stop having contempt for him.  They don't have to stop believing in Jesus to impress me.  All I want to see is for them to mellow out and keep the offensive nonsense to themselves.  If they want to be Christ-like that is their business.

 

 

I agree. It's not the christian belief that bothers me about him. It's the arrogance and the insults. He may never grow beyond his belief, but I wish he'd grow up at least a little bit.

[bdp]

Hey OC - this isn't an 'atheist message board.'  Do you possess the capacity to be honest about anything at all?  Or does honesty not suit your agenda?

[hoosier]

Wow! and to think I decided to read this thread thinking it was by some new age woo peddler! Should have looked at who the OP was! derp me!