What If Tarot Is Real?

[Ouroboros]

OC,

 

I must say, I'm so glad that you're here. It's very encouraging for me. Every time I read your posts and engage a discussion with you, my disbelief is strengthened and renewed. I can tell that your religion is the completely wrong one based on the fruit I can witness. So again, thank you and please stay and contribute more to my unbelief.

 

[Dhampir]

I love how you read into things. The desire for anything, anything at all, means that emotionally you are deficient.  Deficient does not = bad.  It just means you need something you don't already have.  In the case of god, he desired a state of affairs that didn't currently exist, even though, according to you, this is impossible. The specific deficiency applied here, is dissatisfaction.

 

Either god was perfectly satisfied the way things were, or he needed to create. Either he needed to 'express his love' for us, despite us not existing to require anything, or he didn't need anything himself. You can't have it both ways.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Why do you have a forum called the Lion's Den?

To have discussions.

 

So why are you here and why are you so angry?

 

You won't discuss that?

 

I'm not angry. I'm not the one who calls them self  the "Curmudgeon, arrogant übermench bully".

 

I confine myself to the lions den and respond to the endless bullshit spewed by anti-Christians. Because you and I know the real reason for the Lion's Den is so anti-Christians can attack and spew vitriol about God, Christ and Christians.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

Why do you have a forum called the Lion's Den?

To have discussions.

 

So why are you here and why are you so angry?

 

You won't discuss that?

 

I'm not angry. I'm not the one who calls them self  the "Curmudgeon, arrogant übermench bully".

 

I confine myself to the lions den and respond to the endless bullshit spewed by anti-Christians. Because you and I know the real reason for the Lion's Den is so anti-Christians can attack and spew vitriol about God, Christ and Christians.

 

 

I thought the reason for the Lion's Den was so Christians who wanted to attack us ex-Christians for leaving the faith would have a place to do it if they wanted to.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

Science is starting to understand .......

Science has determined no such thing.

How did you get from "starting to understand" to "determined"?

I understand enough biology to smell BS and enough psychology to recognize deflection, sport.

 

OC has misrepresented someone's post, as he's done with this one of yours, many, many times.

 

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts. They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

 

Science is starting to understand .......

Science has determined no such thing.

How did you get from "starting to understand" to "determined"?

I understand enough biology to smell BS and enough psychology to recognize deflection, sport.

 

OC has misrepresented someone's post, as he's done with this one of yours, many, many times.

 

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts. They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

 

 

 

Intentionally or not, you have misrepresented posts before in the past but we certainly don't see ourselves as victims, or at least, I don't.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not angry.

You sound angry.

 

I confine myself to the lions den and respond to the endless bullshit spewed by anti-Christians.

On an Ex-Christian website. What you confine yourself to or not doesn't explain your end game for being here. People on this site has left Christianity for many different reasons, and the site is to encourage and help them. You're welcome to be here. And you're welcome to ask stupid questions. I just want to know why you're here asking these stupid questions. Why even ask why some Ex-Christians on this website have gone to another belief? Some do, some don't. You argue that "many" have done this, but that's not the truth, is it? A few, some, here and there, not "many" as you said. Dumb and stupid claims and statements like that don't need any answers.

 

Because you and I know the real reason for the Lion's Den is so anti-Christians can attack and spew vitriol about God, Christ and Christians.

Nope. Because you and I know that you're just here to show how angry you are and that you hate people who disagree with your belief.

[Ouroboros]

I thought the reason for the Lion's Den was so Christians who wanted to attack us ex-Christians for leaving the faith would have a place to do it if they wanted to.

The purpose of Lion's Den is to have a kind-of "free for all" place for discussions, whatever they might be. There are some restrictions, but generally it's just a place for any kind of debate with minimal interference.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

Because you and I know the real reason for the Lion's Den is so anti-Christians can attack and spew vitriol about God, Christ and Christians.

Nope. Because you and I know that you're just here to show how angry you are and that you hate people who disagree with your belief.

 

 

How can you be sure that OC is angry and not just extremely desperate to save our souls with reasoning that he believes should cause everyone to turn to his god? It has always appeared to me to be desperation to save us, but knowing that he is unable to save most of us just makes him try harder, hoping that somehow we will take his bait and go back to Christianity.

[Ouroboros]

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts.

1) This is not an atheist message board

2) You did misrepresent things and other posts.

 

Ergo, you are a very crappy advocated and representative of your religion. Again, I'm glad for that because anyone coming here that just left Christianity, they'll get reinforced and more decided than ever. So again, thanks.

 

They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

Sounds like you're the one trying to be the victim here.

[centauri]

 

 

 

 

And will kill to get it.

 

Your words make no sense ...

1) He has no needs so He it makes no sense He would do as you say.

2) He created us so our physical bodies are His.

3) The act of causing physical death carries no meaning for the omnipotent creator.

 

And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

(Mat 3:9)

 

 

You're not grasping what you wrote, which was that God wants love and submission.

I don't think you're grasping the difference between needs and wants.

 

When a being wants something badly enough to engage in killing, torture, and mass destruction, that indicates a need that must be satisfied.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

 

 

Science is starting to understand .......

Science has determined no such thing.

How did you get from "starting to understand" to "determined"?

I understand enough biology to smell BS and enough psychology to recognize deflection, sport.

 

OC has misrepresented someone's post, as he's done with this one of yours, many, many times.

 

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts. They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

 

 

I don't see such claims in any profusion on here or on Secular Web.  I have pointed out several times your tendency to misrepresent posts, OC.  I think this habit is an effect of the speed with which you read and consider what other people write and of the superficiality with which you answer.  You've been on here a long time but don't show interest in serious dialogue.  Sad.

[Ouroboros]

How can you be sure that OC is angry and not just extremely desperate to save our souls with reasoning that he believes should cause everyone to turn to his god?

How can I be "sure"? Did I say that I was sure? Sorry if that's how it came through, I meant to say that he sounds very angry and seems very angry in his posts. So, yeah, to some degree I think he's angry, but 100% sure? No. Well... maybe that's why I'm asking him?

 

It has always appeared to me to be desperation to save us, but knowing that he is unable to save most of us just makes him try harder, hoping that somehow we will take his bait and go back to Christianity.

He's been here a long time, long enough to see the lack of fruits of his effort. And I can say that there have been a few very nice Christians on this website in the past that I found to be able to be in contact with and befriend. They're better witnesses of their religion than OC. OC scares people away, and he can't see it. He just want to put people on the edge who don't agree with him. Fine. He can do that. But he obviously can't see how much that hurts his "mission".

 

With that, I'm probably done with this thread. I didn't even look into it until today because the topic seemed boring.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

How can you be sure that OC is angry and not just extremely desperate to save our souls with reasoning that he believes should cause everyone to turn to his god?

How can I be "sure"? Did I say that I was sure? Sorry if that's how it came through, I meant to say that he sounds very angry and seems very angry in his posts. So, yeah, to some degree I think he's angry, but 100% sure? No. Well... maybe that's why I'm asking him?

 

It has always appeared to me to be desperation to save us, but knowing that he is unable to save most of us just makes him try harder, hoping that somehow we will take his bait and go back to Christianity.

He's been here a long time, long enough to see the lack of fruits of his effort. And I can say that there have been a few very nice Christians on this website in the past that I found to be able to be in contact with and befriend. They're better witnesses of their religion than OC. OC scares people away, and he can't see it. He just want to put people on the edge who don't agree with him. Fine. He can do that. But he obviously can't see how much that hurts his "mission".

 

With that, I'm probably done with this thread. I didn't even look into it until today because the topic seemed boring.

 

 

No, you didn't say that you were sure, but I didn't know if you thought you were or not. To me, he just didn't seem that angry most of the time, just desperate to save us. The fact that he has been on the site for so long could be because new members are coming all the time and he is hoping to bring the new deconverts back. He probably becomes angry though when we continue rejecting his reasoning because to him, it is impossible to reject.

 

Maybe there is a possibility that he is incapable of realizing that he is scaring people away? To him, he might not seem like he is scaring people away because he just doesn't know how to deliver his message without doing it.

 

Lol, by the time you got into this thread Ouroboros, it was on its way to going off topic. It keeps swerving off topic and then back on topic again over and over.

[centauri]

 

...The degree people will go to reject God never ceases to amaze me.

The problem is that you've never established this being as anything more than a personal theological construct. 

People reject your version of God.

That's all it is, a version that you want to assign authority to and then represent.

You're indirectly praising yourself by praising your ideas about the object of your worship.

 

I confine myself to the lions den and respond to the endless bullshit spewed by anti-Christians.

Do you classify Protestants that endlessly demonize Catholics as anti-Christian?

From what I've seen and hear on the AM radio constantly, "Christians" are no less anti-Christian than secular people.

 

Because you and I know the real reason for the Lion's Den is so anti-Christians can attack and spew vitriol about God, Christ and Christians.

But you haven't defined what a proper Christian really is.

Are Catholics Christian? How about Mormons or any other sect that you don't endorse?

The Lion's Den serves as a type of truth in advertising department.

Visiting believers "spew" all sorts of claims, pretending to have special authority and knowledge of all things spiritual.

Few of these claims stand up to scrutiny and they often contradict the very scripture used to back up the claim.

If believers don't want to be held accountable, they shouldn't come here.

[ContraBardus]

 

I agree with Ultra Mod, the threads started by Christian fundies are usually the most entertaining. They always end up a train wreck. I didn't leave the faith because of 'bad Christians', I left for other reasons, mostly to do with reasoning and the complete lack of it in Christian arguments and the extremely contradictory nature of the Bible. The basis of the faith didn't add up, so I stopped thinking it was true. Though, interacting with fundies like OC does strengthen my resolve because of how stupid he sounds and the lengths to which he'll go to not admit he's wrong about something. I'm glad I'm not still in the faith and like that. He and others like him makes me feel good about not being a Christian.

 

They almost always fail epically and still insist that they are having a good debate with valid points that make all kinds of sense, [it's just us who don't understand why they are right].

 

Really, OC has nothing to complain about. If this was a Christian forum and he was a non-believer, Atheist or otherwise, he would have been b& hard years ago. Yet he goes on about how 'intolerant' and 'narrow minded' we are here. It's kind of dumb. We rip his arguments to shreds on a regular basis, and he remains here free to post as he pleases within the forum rules. We don't respect his beliefs, but we tolerate them, and that's more than any Christian website would do with any of us if we behaved as he does here.

 

 

 

It's amusing to see him whine about how awful we are to him and how closed minded we all are. A clear cut case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

[OrdinaryClay]

I love how you read into things. The desire for anything, anything at all, means that emotionally you are deficient.  Deficient does not = bad.  It just means you need something you don't already have.  In the case of god, he desired a state of affairs that didn't currently exist, even though, according to you, this is impossible. The specific deficiency applied here, is dissatisfaction.

 

Either god was perfectly satisfied the way things were, or he needed to create. Either he needed to 'express his love' for us, despite us not existing to require anything, or he didn't need anything himself. You can't have it both ways.

"Emotionally Deficient" means exactly what it says. I took the phrase to mean exactly what it means. We can want happiness for our loved ones not because of any "emotional deficiency". Theirs or ours. They may already be totally happy, but we can still want them to be happy. It is perfectly possible for someone to want with no need. You are the one who is reading things into the words.

 

God could have been perfectly satisfied with the way things were(which was an eternity in the past so obviously He was satisfied!), but because He was an almighty and loving God wanted His creation to share in His happiness. This is not a need.

[Ouroboros]

No, you didn't say that you were sure, but I didn't know if you thought you were or not. To me, he just didn't seem that angry most of the time, just desperate to save us.

Sure, in the past I'd say he seemed more desperate. It's in this thread I get the impression he's angry. He probably came to the site to save us, but now when he's failing, he might just become angry with us for not responding the way he wants. (Sorry for talking behind your back OC.)

 

The fact that he has been on the site for so long could be because new members are coming all the time and he is hoping to bring the new deconverts back. He probably becomes angry though when we continue rejecting his reasoning because to him, it is impossible to reject.

Exactly. That's what I think too. And for his sake, I wish that he can see this for himself too. There's been many times in the past when I talk to a person (Christian or other) about how they're talking about stuff rather than what. I care less and less about what people think and more about how they do it. Probably because I'm trying to learn myself how to express and communicate better (I tend to be an asshole, and I know it). For instance, OC's back-attack on me for admitting I'm a curmudgeon is a total miss of my point to him. I'm asking because I want him to realize what he is. I already know what I am. I can be a jerk. He can be a jerk. I know I can be. He doesn't seem to know when he is. For his sake, he could learn more about himself by realizing what he is, and that could help him cool down.

 

Maybe there is a possibility that he is incapable of realizing that he is scaring people away? To him, he might not seem like he is scaring people away because he just doesn't know how to deliver his message without doing it.

Agree. And I think that some people when they do this believe they're scoring extra points with the higher powers by "defending their faith" even if it means lost souls. The cost is justified by their own heavenly brownies.

 

Lol, by the time you got into this thread Ouroboros, it was on its way to going off topic. It keeps swerving off topic and then back on topic again over and over.

They tend to do that, don't they? Well. I know there's no answer that would satisfy Mr OC, so there's nothing I can add to all this.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

 

 

Science is starting to understand .......

Science has determined no such thing.

How did you get from "starting to understand" to "determined"?

I understand enough biology to smell BS and enough psychology to recognize deflection, sport.

 

OC has misrepresented someone's post, as he's done with this one of yours, many, many times.

 

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts. They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

 

 

 

Intentionally or not, you have misrepresented posts before in the past but we certainly don't see ourselves as victims, or at least, I don't.

 

Perhaps some people here wanted to believe I misrepresented posts. Perhaps some people here can't communicate clearly and imagined they said one thing when they said another. Perhaps I ignore parts of posts because they were rambling rants. Perhaps I ignore strawmen and red herrings. Perhaps I ignore long boring posts where people don't say anything to the point.

[ContraBardus]

Perhaps some people here wanted to believe I misrepresented posts. Perhaps some people here can't communicate clearly and imaged they said one thing when they said another. Perhaps I ignore parts of posts because they were rambling rants. Perhaps I ignore strawmen and red herrings. Perhaps I ignore long boring posts where people don't say anything to the point.

 

 

Perhaps monkeys will fly out of my butt. Perhaps some Orthodox Jews will open a Barbecue restaurant. Perhaps purple elephants exist on the surface of Pluto. Perhaps invisible fairies make flowers bloom. Perhaps if Steven Hawking renounces physics and accepts Jesus he'll be able to walk. Perhaps waterfalls actually run upwards on the inside in the middle. Perhaps alcohol won't burn if you heat it with a blow torch. Perhaps Tigers will accept Christ and become vegetarians.

 

I can post stupid and obviously untrue suppositions too.

[ContraBardus]

"Emotionally Deficient" means exactly what it says. I took the phrase to mean exactly what it means. We can want happiness for our loved ones not because of any "emotional deficiency". Theirs or ours. They may already be totally happy, but we can still want them to be happy. It is perfectly possible for someone to want with no need. You are the one who is reading things into the words.

 

God could have been perfectly satisfied with the way things were(which was an eternity in the past so obviously He was satisfied!), but because He was an almighty and loving God wanted His creation to share in His happiness. This is not a need.

 

 

If he didn't have a desire or a need, then why make 'creations' to begin with? What's the point? If it didn't fulfill a need then there's no reason to do it. No matter how you say it, the God you suggest exists is an imperfect being. It is not eternally self sufficient, it [supposedly] created an entire universe. Why would a perfect all knowing being need or even want to do that? Saying that 'it's beyond us' is just a lame cop out. There's no excuse for it, and the very core of the premise requires God to be imperfect in some manner. He had to want something, or had some sort of need to fulfill by doing it. For some reason, 'God' was dissatisfied with things as they were and sought to change them. You can't weasel your way out of that no matter what you say. God is not a perfect being, a perfect being would be an eternally self sufficient closed system without the need for anything else outside of itself.

 

The very idea that such a being would want the attention of the residents of an electron of an atom in a dust speck within his universe is arrogant and incredibly stupid to begin with. Such a thing would be far beyond caring whether or not we worship it or believe in it, and certainly would not bother with 'judging' us or providing eternal reward or punishment. There's no good reason for such stupid beliefs aside from pure human arrogance. If there is such a thing as an all powerful all knowing lord of the Universe, then we're too insignificant for it to give a single shit about us at all. It's absurd to think otherwise.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Science is starting to understand .......

Science has determined no such thing.

How did you get from "starting to understand" to "determined"?

I understand enough biology to smell BS and enough psychology to recognize deflection, sport.

 

OC has misrepresented someone's post, as he's done with this one of yours, many, many times.

 

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts. They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

 

 

 

Intentionally or not, you have misrepresented posts before in the past but we certainly don't see ourselves as victims, or at least, I don't.

 

Perhaps some people here wanted to believe I misrepresented posts. Perhaps some people here can't communicate clearly and imagined they said one thing when they said another. Perhaps I ignore parts of posts because they were rambling rants. Perhaps I ignore strawmen and red herrings. Perhaps I ignore long boring posts where people don't say anything to the point.

 

 

If you are not convinced that you have misrepresented posts, intentional or not, I know where I could find at least one example. I'll site the web page and the post number in the thread for you to see, if you would like me to.

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps I ignore parts of posts because they were rambling rants. Perhaps I ignore strawmen and red herrings. Perhaps I ignore long boring posts where people don't say anything to the point.

Perhaps why this thread is a waste of space.

[BlueGiant]

Wow, OC, hat's off to your excellent trolling.  Good thing you're somewhat entertaining.  

 

Oh, and I just love the assumption that everyone here's an atheist.  Really, I just got a better offer.

You claim to have good news, but I have better: you're not in any danger to begin with.  Now seriously, go, live your life, and be not a douche.

[florduh]

The standard operating procedure for atheist message boards is to constantly and incessantly claim they are victims of misrepresented and misinterpreted posts. They constantly claim the victim. I have never intentionally done this. It is just part of the victimhood shtick.

 

OC, for one thing, atheists do not reject your god, as you have said. Atheists have found no reason to believe a god even exists, therefore they can't possibly reject a nonexistent deity; it would be like rejecting pink unicorns. This is one of many primary points you "misinterpret." If I said, "I don't believe that gods or anything supernatural exists. I can't find any evidence" you would respond with, "So, you decided to reject God." You have completely misinterpreted what I said and I am not imagining it just so I can be a "victim." YOU got it wrong.

 

The fact that you hear what you want to hear doesn't make me or anyone else play the victim. We make note of how you ignore and twist things, and that reflects on you, not us.

 

You do this so consistently I must wonder if you are sincere or just a bored troll. Honestly, dialog with you is quite useless as you don't hear what we say most of the time. I don't expect any minds will be changed, but we could try to understand each other. You make that impossible.