What If Tarot Is Real?

[sdelsolray]

...

Truth is the idea of oblivion after death is a greater psychological crutch than a belief in the afterlife ever was. Nothing could be easier than to believe that death will the same as before birth.

 

Your "truth" is a mere assertion.  I tire of your mere assertions.  Nothing could be easier than "believing" that 2 + 2 = 4, instead of equaling 5.  Anthropocentrism is a gateway to egomania.  You are quite far along that disease path.  For a demonstration, tell us again how special you are.  It's quite entertaining when your pretend to be special.  I could use a laugh.

[Dhampir]

Oy.  Will you quit dodging the 'after death' part that I put in as surely as the 'before birth' part, which incidentally, was not meant to carry the weight you insist on giving it?  If you can comprehend not existing before birth, can you comprehend not existing after death?

 

I said nothing about revenge.  It is a very commonplace belief that those that escape mortal justice find it in the hereafter.  Not revenge, Justice.  Why else would there be places of punishment in religious afterlife mythologies?  Further, it was you that called the belief in no life after death a psychological crutch.

 

The very nearly universal belief in the afterlife bespeaks the truth of people's ability to comprehend death. It does not bespeak any truths about the actual existence of such a thing, and here's why:

 

The afterlife is an as yet unproven thing, and a heretofore unprovable thing.  After how ever many thousands of years of postulation we are no closer to ascertaining the explicit nature of the afterlife, the soul, and any of its aspects.  Not only that, but we are unable to even indirectly demonstrate such a thing, and we should have been able to do that much a thousand years ago, to say nothing of the current age. All notions of the afterlife are anecdotal, contradictory, fanciful and speculative.  So it stands to reason that, millenia ago, the universal ability of humankind to comprehend the finality of death resulted in a universal concoction of a circumvention of said finality. 

 

Ancient man had no proof of an existence beyond life, just as we have no such proof.  The afterlife MUST therefore be speculation.  What is the reason for this?  I find it to be twofold. One, it circumvents death. It allows for reunion with lost loved ones, and provides hope that who and what we are as people, uniquely capable of all animals to think introspectively about the self, persists.  Two, it provides a balance for all actions in this world. I suspect that the use of the afterlife as a tool for punishment came much later, but nevertheless, that many religions resort to the afterlife to provide justice for wrongs in the living world, is proof that this is part of its function.

 

You say the ubiquitousness of the notion of the afterlife is proof that it exists?  Well, Marriage, war, rape, murder, and theft are all equally ubiquitous among cultures.  And one other thing that is universal? Death.  Another? Contemplation of death.  What does it say that all these things are present in every culture, other than that there were equal driving forces that caused them all to be come by?

 

Argumentum ad populum.  The idea that because so many believe it, it must be true. Reality is not decided by consensus.

[Astreja]

Admitting the protocol is needed is admitting we have free will.

 

No assumption need be made that supernatural entities actually exist to conclude they could confound an empirical process if a person really does understand why blind protocols are needed in experimentation.

 

Utter nonsense, and a non sequitur as well.  The existence of double-blind protocols neither confirms nor disproves the existence of free will.  For all we know, this universe could be 100% deterministic and free will an illusion, yet a universe in which the protocols still work just fine and produce useful results.

 

Furthermore, your second statement quoted above is essentially meaningless.  If you define "supernatural" as "outside the realm of empirical examination," all you've done is chase your own tail.  You've postulated a hypothetical entity that very conveniently cannot be assessed with the scientific method, and deliberately assigned qualities to it that enable it to evade assessment in that realm.

 

Your thinking is shallow. God existed for an eternity prior to creation so clearly He does not need mankind or any created being.

 

 

Existential fallacy:  You have to demonstrate that your god actually exists before you start listing its attributes.

[ContraBardus]

Oy.  Will you quit dodging the 'after death' part that I put in as surely as the 'before birth' part, which incidentally, was not meant to carry the weight you insist on giving it?  If you can comprehend not existing before birth, can you comprehend not existing after death?

 

I said nothing about revenge.  It is a very commonplace belief that those that escape mortal justice find it in the hereafter.  Not revenge, Justice.  Why else would there be places of punishment in religious afterlife mythologies?  Further, it was you that called the belief in no life after death a psychological crutch.

 

The very nearly universal belief in the afterlife bespeaks the truth of people's ability to comprehend death. It does not bespeak any truths about the actual existence of such a thing, and here's why:

 

The afterlife is an as yet unproven thing, and a heretofore unprovable thing.  After how ever many thousands of years of postulation we are no closer to ascertaining the explicit nature of the afterlife, the soul, and any of its aspects.  Not only that, but we are unable to even indirectly demonstrate such a thing, and we should have been able to do that much a thousand years ago, to say nothing of the current age. All notions of the afterlife are anecdotal, contradictory, fanciful and speculative.  So it stands to reason that, millenia ago, the universal ability of humankind to comprehend the finality of death resulted in a universal concoction of a circumvention of said finality. 

 

Ancient man had no proof of an existence beyond life, just as we have no such proof.  The afterlife MUST therefore be speculation.  What is the reason for this?  I find it to be twofold. One, it circumvents death. It allows for reunion with lost loved ones, and provides hope that who and what we are as people, uniquely capable of all animals to think introspectively about the self, persists.  Two, it provides a balance for all actions in this world. I suspect that the use of the afterlife as a tool for punishment came much later, but nevertheless, that many religions resort to the afterlife to provide justice for wrongs in the living world, is proof that this is part of its function.

 

You say the ubiquitousness of the notion of the afterlife is proof that it exists?  Well, Marriage, war, rape, murder, and theft are all equally ubiquitous among cultures.  And one other thing that is universal? Death.  Another? Contemplation of death.  What does it say that all these things are present in every culture, other than that there were equal driving forces that caused them all to be come by?

 

Argumentum ad populum.  The idea that because so many believe it, it must be true. Reality is not decided by consensus.

 

I've been dead for short periods twice, and I was conscious before and after it happened both times. I'm not able to take the 'knock out' stuff for surgery, my respiratory system can't take it. I get local and don't feel anything. I've had five heart catheterizations and one of them went very wrong [due for another one on the 4th of next month], the other time I died was shortly after that while I was recovering from the first time my heart stopped. My heart rate jumped over 180bpm and just shut down after racing madly for about an hour. I was fortunate that I was already in the hospital.

 

At any rate, my heart stopped beating and I was quite dead for a brief period on two separate occasions. I have more insight into death than pretty much anyone here most likely. If someone else has had a similar experience, they haven't spoken of it. [i don't blame them if they haven't, it wasn't exactly fun, though the worst of it was after, not during.]

 

I saw not a single iota of evidence supporting an afterlife while I was dead. The only 'tunnel of light' type of experience was when I was revived, and it was less of a 'tunnel' and more like light fading into existence with lots of blurry objects around me that slowly came into focus to become the various equipment in the room, and the doctors and nurses who revived me. I wouldn't call it fun, but I don't fear death anymore. Based on my personal experience I see no reason to think that it will be anything more than my existence ending. No afterlife, it's just like falling asleep only you don't wake up.

 

I did not exist for eons before I was born, and I was perfectly fine with that. I'll be just fine with not existing for eons after my life ends. It doesn't concern or worry me, though that doesn't mean I'm going to request to not be treated or refuse help if I'm in a life threatening situation. It's not the sort of experience that excuses me from doing stupid things either. I don't want to die, but if I do my experience with being dead before suggests I won't be bothered by it. I don't have any reason to worry about it anymore. It just seems silly, and waking up and recovering was worse and more stressful than actually being dead was. Not that I'm not glad I did it, but being dead was easier and I didn't feel anything until I was revived.

 

It's just a period of darkness in my perception, no family greeting me, angels, fire and brimstone, final judgement, or tunnel of light. Just darkness, no sensation, no cold or warmth, just a blank sort of blackness. I didn't perceive any passage of time or anything else. One minute I was awake, then a period of time happened that I didn't exist, and then I was revived. I didn't even know I had died until someone told me later on what had happened. It just seemed to me like I just lost a second or two, and I didn't know how much time had passed. Then, I really did pass out and woke up three days later intubated [i had a tube in my throat to breathe for me]. I wasn't aware that more than a couple of hours had passed for a while after that as well.

 

I don't want to live forever, not in this life, or in another. It might not be so bad if we get reincarnated and don't really remember, but I see no reason to think that an eternal existence, even in the most wondrous paradise, would not end in madness and suffering after a while. I'd rather simply not exist than dive into an eternity of that rabbit hole thanks.

 

I see no reason to buy into an afterlife. I've been dead more than once, and saw nothing that suggests any such thing exists. No one is going to talk me into thinking otherwise, because personal experience is more trustworthy than the word of some idiot trying to sell me on a spiritual belief. I've been there, I've done that, and it's nothing special or anything worth being afraid of.

[Dhampir]

 

 

Not sure if you're supporting or refuting my argument.  I'll say that I have been on the "knock out" stuff a couple of times, and it literally obliterates your consciousness.  You are as dead as you can be without major organ failure. I understand the concept, but it is still beyond my mind to imagine a perpetual state of oblivion, and although it was quite pleasant (no side affects that I'm aware of), returning to consciousness makes you wonder how it will be.

 

That inability to comprehend that "you" have to stop one day is at least part of what makes thinking on oblivion so tough to handle for most people. Most people bypass the logical question of "what happens when you die" and skip straight to "where do you go when you die" as if it is a foregone conclusion that "you" will go somewhere. So I maintain that the fear of nothing has prompted people to believe in the afterlife. It makes sense no other way; why do the gods occupy a realm that can only be accessed after your physical death? Why is there physical death if there are gods?

 

We seek that same oblivion every night when we sleep. Only 1/3 of that time is spent semi-conscious in dreams, the rest is spent completely unconscious, which is functionally no different than being dead. Strange then that we should ever have developed a fear of death knowing this, but here we are.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

I see no reason to buy into an afterlife. I've been dead more than once, and saw nothing that suggests any such thing exists. No one is going to talk me into thinking otherwise, because personal experience is more trustworthy than the word of some idiot trying to sell me on a spiritual belief. I've been there, I've done that, and it's nothing special or anything worth being afraid of.

 

Others claim different experiences. So why do you assume yours is the definitive answer?

[OrdinaryClay]

At any rate, my heart stopped beating and I was quite dead for a brief period on two separate occasions. I have more insight into death than pretty much anyone here most likely. If someone else has had a similar experience, they haven't spoken of it. [i don't blame them if they haven't, it wasn't exactly fun, though the worst of it was after, not during.]

If your definition of dead is that your heart stopped beating then people do this many times every day as they undergo open heart surgery. It is standard procedure to stop their hearts during operations that can last hours.

[ContraBardus]

 

 

 

Not sure if you're supporting or refuting my argument.  I'll say that I have been on the "knock out" stuff a couple of times, and it literally obliterates your consciousness.  You are as dead as you can be without major organ failure. I understand the concept, but it is still beyond my mind to imagine a perpetual state of oblivion, and although it was quite pleasant (no side affects that I'm aware of), returning to consciousness makes you wonder how it will be.

 

That inability to comprehend that "you" have to stop one day is at least part of what makes thinking on oblivion so tough to handle for most people. Most people bypass the logical question of "what happens when you die" and skip straight to "where do you go when you die" as if it is a foregone conclusion that "you" will go somewhere. So I maintain that the fear of nothing has prompted people to believe in the afterlife. It makes sense no other way; why do the gods occupy a realm that can only be accessed after your physical death? Why is there physical death if there are gods?

 

We seek that same oblivion every night when we sleep. Only 1/3 of that time is spent semi-conscious in dreams, the rest is spent completely unconscious, which is functionally no different than being dead. Strange then that we should ever have developed a fear of death knowing this, but here we are.

 

 

Mostly supporting, but death is not something no one living has no experience with. There are those who claim to have seen dead family, tunnels of light, and even those who suggest they've been to heaven. A lot of them are full of shit, for example there's are people who claim to have died for a half hour to forty five minutes and had 'adventure' in the land of the dead. I recall one guy who claims to have 'died' for several days and there are those who claim all sorts of improbable times in-between. Some even claim they went to hell [and naturally found Jesus once they returned to life].

 

Having experienced it myself, I learned a bit about it, and as far as I can tell those who make 'spiritual claims' related to their own 'death' tell stories that don't add up to reality. They either weren't really dead, and were merely sedated, [many refuse to believe they weren't dead even when told by doctors that they never died. I've had a couple of physicians relate stories of people like that. No specifics were given of course, no one was named and no details were given as they can't violate HIPPA, but those with a mind that is firmly set on faith will often have crazy dreams and wake up thinking they died. Most claim that their 'death' lasted far too long for them to be revived without serious and permanent issues. It's a carnival show of a racket and most often fueled by crazed belief and wishful thinking. Sort of like the whole Alien Abduction scene, the two bear a lot of similarities. A lot of people have experiences that are easily rationally explained and verified to be different than what they believe or pretend to believe happened, and they simply refuse to accept any other explanation. The amount of pure bullshit buries those stories that might have a grain of truth to them into the realm of almost comical and pathetic disbelief.

 

The truth of the matter is that you cannot survive being dead for more than a few minutes without suffering massive and irreparable brain damage. I've spoke with others who have had similar experiences to mine who aren't on some sort of evangelical recruitment tour to prove the existence of their beliefs, and the majority of those people relate experiences similar to mine. Most of them have faith in some form as well, the majority are Christians and continue to be Christians despite the blank loss of time they experienced upon dying. They are mostly level headed and not exactly feverent fundy believers. I attend support meetings for transplant patients and I've met with others who have died during surgeries through that as well as another support group that specializes in people who died like I did. It messes some people up and they wanted me to attend a few meetings because of it. The stories of those I know actually died, including the faithful, are more like mine than those of the traveling salesmen who float from church to church selling books about their 'miraculous story of angels and magical sparkles when they died after overdosing on the funny gas at the dentist office once'. Most of those types are just a carnival show.

 

Those kinds of stories usually have too many discrepancies, medically improbable timetables, and a curious lack of verification that they actually died in the form of medical records in their stories. HIPPA makes a nice little shield for those people to excuse themselves from verifying their tales are true with their personal health records. It's a bit much to expect that from someone on an internet message board, but to be honest if I was selling books related to my 'death' I'd include a copy of the documentation from my medical records that verifies I was actually dead on the first page of every book. I find it suspicious those who die and have magical experiences with dead relatives and fluffy clouds of wonder where they had tea with Jesus and his Dad don't ever do that.

 

Death is not untestable, but it's only testable in a limited manner. The vast majority of evidence that has actual grounding is more similar to what happened to me. There's no evidence, and thus no reason to think that an afterlife exists. It's not irrefutable proof mind you, but the actual experience of people who I know for a fact have died doesn't support people who as far as I know are merely claiming that they have. I'm not suggesting that there should be a Jacob's Ladder style experiment with Death mind you. There are enough people like me to relate what it's like without the need for that kind of extreme.

 

From what I've seen and heard, and I've spoken with quite a few people who had experiences like mine, my experience with death is the actual norm. Some speak of a tunnel of light, but usually upon revival, and the end of that 'tunnel' is like what I described and merely ends up being their eyes slowly adjusting to being revived and their consciousness noticing what's going on around them.

 

OBE and people who take trips to the land of the dead are not normal, and most have a lot of suspicious issues with their stories of their 'journey into the afterlife'. Their stories are also difficult to verify. My experience tells me they are full of shit, and I've spoken with others who support that with their own experiences with being dead.

 

Though, there is a dark side to it all. I amused the thought of becoming 'born again' just to sell books [complete with my medical records to show I had actually died twice] and fleece the sheep myself. I never really seriously considered doing it, but I did realize that I had an opportunity to do so. I suspect there are a few who didn't resist the temptation to run that scam when they realized that such an opportunity had landed in their lap. There probably are a few out there who can verify that they died and are still making claims of angels and spirits in Heaven. I don't know of any myself though. Like I said, everyone I know who has had an experience like mine has a story like mine. I see no reason to think that there is an afterlife at all. It's not solid irrefutable scientific verification by any stretch, but enough anecdotal evidence that I think it's pretty likely that there is no such thing.

 

I've been dead, seen for myself that it appears as though you just stop existing, and I don't buy the idea of an afterlife anymore. I've got no reason to think that there is such a thing, and I'm fine with that.

[ContraBardus]

 

At any rate, my heart stopped beating and I was quite dead for a brief period on two separate occasions. I have more insight into death than pretty much anyone here most likely. If someone else has had a similar experience, they haven't spoken of it. [i don't blame them if they haven't, it wasn't exactly fun, though the worst of it was after, not during.]

If your definition of dead is that your heart stopped beating then people do this many times every day as they undergo open heart surgery. It is standard procedure to stop their hearts during operations that can last hours.

 

 

Um, no. My function stopped and my blood was not pumping anymore. There is an artificial heart in the form of a pump that keeps your blood circulating during a major surgery like that. I've been hooked up to one of those things before during other surgeries and you don't die because your bodily functions are being done for you by an outside source. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about here.

 

I didn't have anything hooked up to me to keep my blood oxygenated, and I was as dead as you can get. My entire body had shut down and I had to be revived forcibly and then spent three days on machines that took care of my breathing and kept my heart stable after that. What you're suggesting is controlled and not even close to what happened to me.

[Dhampir]

There's no part of the OBE that can't be better explained by functions of the brain in certain individuals, or, as you put it, scamsters trying to cash in on people's vulnerabilities.  And I agree, death and what occurs can be tested to some capacity. We don't know for certain that unconsciousness is a perpetual thing, but because the mind is the brain, there's no reason to suspect that it is not.

[ContraBardus]

Others claim different experiences. So why do you assume yours is the definitive answer?

 

 

 

I never said that I had a definitive answer. There you go putting words in the mouths of others again. You do that a lot and it's a bad habit. I never suggested any such thing. I got into that in the longer post above this one, and I readily admit that my story is anecdotal. It is merely a relation of my perspective on my own experience and what I've heard from others that I know have shared the same experience. Like I said above, I've met several others and even attend a support group for people who have had experiences like mine. I don't need to go very often, but I do attend occasionally to offer support for others who are having a harder time of it than I have.

 

At any rate, I'm almost a hundred percent sure I've got more experience than you do in the matter. Even though that doesn't 'prove' anything, it does mean that my word carries a bit of weight as it's a subject I have direct personal experience with, and is not something I've merely heard from someone else. I'm not giving a second hand account, it's a first hand account. That's not solid evidence of course, but it does mean that I know more about it than you do.

 

Even if you did claim to have an experience like mine, I would still find claims of an afterlife suspect. Even if you could prove that you died with medical documentation, the weight of evidence I've seen against such wild tales would far outweigh even a first hand anecdotal story. It would be a single account against quite a few others that do not support that account. That would leave me with more reason to suspect dishonesty than anything else. This isn't something someone is going to simply talk or debate me out of believing. I've seen too much evidence that supports my observations. It's not a matter of faith either, observations I've personally made and the observations of others I know who have the same kind of experience don't support the idea that there is any kind of existence after death. That makes it an evidence based belief and not a faith based belief. There is no good reason for me to think otherwise, and no one is going to simply 'discuss' the evidence I've seen and heard away.

 

What I've seen and heard from others like me suggest to me that there is no such thing as an afterlife. I don't care if that proves anything or not, and I do not and never have suggested that it is a definitive answer. Only that from my perspective and personal experience it is most likely that there is no life after death. I don't really care if you believe that there is an afterlife, but I see no reason to share your beliefs since they do not fit with what I've seen for myself and what I've heard from others who have had the same experience. It doesn't fit the evidence I've seen, and I really can't offer any more proof than an anecdotal story of my own first hand account and that I've heard first hand from others who have had the same experience that their experience was similar to my own and supports my observations.

 

While not solid scientific evidence, it's enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that my observations about the lack of existence of an afterlife are correct to me. I only seek to offer my perspective on the topic of the afterlife and death because I've had experience with it myself and it's relevant to the topic at hand.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

 

 

 

OdinaryClay, have you ever asked yourself why god, angels and demons are invisible, does that not set alam bells off for you.

Yes, I have asked myself this. I then quickly asked myself how visible should they be? What do people really mean when they say visible? What most are really asking is, Why doesn't God perform tricks for me.

 

After many years, I came to the conclusion that, one, God is not as hidden as people claim He is, and two, the natural world is part of a greater reality, and that saying God is hidden is akin to a fish saying trees are hidden.

Then ill ask this question, why does god, angels and demons remain invisible when they don't have to?

Why do you hide premises in your questions?

There has to be a reason for the heavenly hosts to remain hidden, silent and up to you to make a interpretation of them for us. Why do they need you or any other christian for that matter. Wouldnt it be much better for me and the rest of us if god spoke to us first hand instead of using a middle man like yourself who is bound to fuck understanding god up for the rest of us.

You inject many arbitrary assumptions.

 

Who said God needs us? I see no reason whatsoever to assume God needs anything form any of us - including preachers. God has no needs. All we do for God is for our benefit. Not His.

 

You assume because you don't believe He is "hidden". Again, as I've said before what many people mean by hidden is that God does not perform tricks on demand. He may not blind me while walking down the road, but He is not hidden to me and millions of others.

 

God's word is crystal clear. We screw it up because of who and what we are not because He lacks clarity.

 

So please tell me. How should God have revealed himself to neolithic tribes men?

You admit god needs nothing and no one, not even you? Then why are you here?

 

What do you say to this.

 

"All we do for God is for our benefit."

 

So your trying to convert us for your benefit, well at least your honest.

 

As for god revealing himself to primitive man, your walking into a shit storm by debating how evolution has to fit into your own personal beliefs.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is also clear that many contrive their standards of evidence to fit their preconceived desires.

 

I agree there are some that want to believe. There are most certainly others that don't want the supernatural to exist. Most people honestly have never faced the thought of an undeniably true afterlife. Most people give it lip service. Even Christians. Few really tackle the thought of it being genuinely true.

 

 

No. What most people never face is the thought of undeniably true oblivion. The idea that for 13.8 billion years you did not know you did not exist, and that for another 13.8 googol years after your body has ceased to function, you won't know you ever did exist. That it's possible that you could ever not be is so terrifying, that all of humanity has contrived not to have to so much as consider it.

That is silly. Obviously billions of people live their lives just fine knowing they did not exist before being born.

Thanks for missing (dodging?) the point. No one considers that this (nothingness) is the state to which they will return, and those that do are typically so terrified of the possibility that they cannot consider it very long.

You are the one that brought up non-existence prior to birth. On the atheist world view oblivion before and after birth are identical so the view of either should be the same. Billions of humans accept and believe in nothingness prior to birth with no consequences. Your point is simply silly.

 

Truth is the idea of oblivion after death is a greater psychological crutch than a belief in the afterlife ever was. Nothing could be easier than to believe that death will the same as before birth.

You're sure about that? As an atheist, it is very nearly incomprehensible to me that I won't exist shortly. I might assert that if people DID accept this, over however much time it would take to do so, it would be easier. However, the fear of death, and the fear of oblivion is so great that people have concocted a belief in the afterlife to cope. The idea that this is all that there is and that those escaping justice have escaped eternally, forced people to concoct eternal furnaces to catch those that thought they were clear.

 

I submit that the reason you think there is nothing to fear from this is because you don't believe that this is the end. Have you truly considered what it means to not be here ever again? And if you accept that we didn't exist prior to birth, why would we exist after death? The naturalist view is that there is nothing to fear from oblivion, this is true, but those that haven't accepted this do not take the same approach. I have believed that oblivion is our fate for over a decade, and I am still not reconciled with that fact-- how can you say it's the easier way?

 

Further, do you really believe that a belief in the afterlife is what permits good deeds? If so, you would by association be asserting that no human does good for its own sake, or rather, not because it's the right thing to do, but because they fear eternal suffering.

Science is starting to understand that the universe has always existed in some form, maybe we did exist before this life when the universe was in another form and maybe after this life we will become another form when the universe takes on its next.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

Fact , no one including you bases their lives on all empirical evidence. Anyone who tells you this is either lying or an internet parrot.

 

So how do you determine what is true?

 

 

The same faulty, subjective, hit-and-miss process that I would imagine you use.  If I imagine wrongly, then please correct me.  After all I've admitted to being genuinely puzzled about certain aspects of your behavior and this is another area of puzzlement on my part.  I've also stated that I'm serious about this, so I'll re-state and confirm that.

 

 

How do you determine what is true?  What is your starting point?  How do you compensate for our all-too-obvious human biases?  

 

BAA

 

I build a belief structure through reason and evidence. This leaves gaps, but does provide a sound infrastructure. I either live with the gaps as inconsequential because of my belief structure or I pursue them further. I may never come to a good conclusion.

 

The net result for me is:

1) I believe in and worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

2) I have areas I don't understand and that is fine.

 

 

Thank you for your response Clay.

 

However, it contains information about you that I was already aware of.  You will also have known that I already knew these things about you.  Unless you missed post #198 (quoted below in blue text) you would also have been aware that I'm addressing you on the level and looking to you for more than that which I already know.

 

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Ok then Clay, I won't drag anyone else into this and I'll offer up only myself as an example.

 

Let's say that you're right and that I'm shit scared, just as you say I am.  And that I'll jump thru absurd hoops to avoid believing in the supernatural.  Now, if I admit to this and own up to these things, do you have any further input to make on my behalf or is that it?  I'm scared shitless and you're finished with me or I'm scared shitless and there's something else?

 

Please note that I'm not ****ing around here, Clay.  I see that you're deadly serious and I'll match that seriousness.  But I'm also genuinely puzzled by your persistence and equally puzzled as to the reason for it.  Is it your job to scare me and leave me hanging in terror or does your job involve something else?

 

"Yes, my job involves something else." ...would be an accurate but unhelpful response from you.  So, seeing as I am serious I'm going to place myself in a vulnerable position and ask you to please be helpful towards me.  Please help me understand why you are here and what you are doing... because I currently understand neither.

 

I await your (hopefully) helpful response.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

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After reading the above Clay, you'll now be aware that I'm genuinely and earnestly looking to understand how you think.  So a reply that simply re-hashes what I already know about you, even though it fulfills the letter of my request, does nothing to match the spirit in which I put the questions to you.  Therefore, still hoping that you can find it within youself to respond to me with more than the most rigid adherence to the letter of my requests, I look forward to two specific responses from you. 

 

Firstly, a point-by-point reply to post #198, quoted above. 

 

Secondly, a more informative response to these questions.

 

How do you determine what is true? 

What is your starting point? 

How do you compensate for our all-too-obvious human biases? 

 

I know that you have the capacity within you to fully understand what I mean in these questions and that you also have the ability to compensate for any lack of clarity on my part.  I know that you also have the time and the opportunity to respond to these questions with far more detail and far greater levels of explanation than you've so far displayed. 

 

If there is something that is holding you back and preventing you from being more forthcoming and more helpful - then I simply do not know what that is.

 

Now, having outlined my position as fully as I believe I'm able to, I await your response.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest r3alchild]

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

I never posted a comment about the op, so I will now.

 

If the tarot and other things like it are real and if unclean spirits (demons) use these things to contact and manipulate us, people who are involed with these things are being deeply decieved by these spirits.

 

But this analogy is only based on the christian doctrine of god and satan, so once you take that doctrine away you are left with any explaination and anology to "what if tarot is real?"

 

Your op was a loaded question, your trying to get people to assume that if the tarot is real then it has something to do with the doctrine of god and satan. But that would only work on someone who already has a pre concieved idea that god and satan are real or that the analogy of unclean spirits trying to decieve humankind is true.

[hereticzero]

So what if Tarot happens to be real? Who cares? Tarot will not murder you or your loved ones for not believing in it. Tarot is a graphic way of meditation on a problem to find a course of action. I don't care if Tarot is real or not, no matter how real or unreal Tarot is, the Christian god is even deader.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

So what if Tarot happens to be real? Who cares? Tarot will not murder you or your loved ones for not believing in it. Tarot is a graphic way of meditation on a problem to find a course of action. I don't care if Tarot is real or not, no matter how real or unreal Tarot is, the Christian god is even deader.

 

It is also a plus that Tarot cards will not torture anyone for any length of time for not believing that they have some sort of power.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

And will kill to get it.

 

Your words make no sense ...

1) He has no needs so He it makes no sense He would do as you say.

2) He created us so our physical bodies are His.

3) The act of causing physical death carries no meaning for the omnipotent creator.

 

And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

(Mat 3:9)

 

[florduh]

 

Your words make no sense ...

1) He has no needs so He it makes no sense He would do as you say.

2) He created us so our physical bodies are His.

3) The act of causing physical death carries no meaning for the omnipotent creator.

 

 

 

Is this the Imam of Irony or what!?!?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

At any rate, my heart stopped beating and I was quite dead for a brief period on two separate occasions. I have more insight into death than pretty much anyone here most likely. If someone else has had a similar experience, they haven't spoken of it. [i don't blame them if they haven't, it wasn't exactly fun, though the worst of it was after, not during.]

If your definition of dead is that your heart stopped beating then people do this many times every day as they undergo open heart surgery. It is standard procedure to stop their hearts during operations that can last hours.

 

 

Um, no. My function stopped and my blood was not pumping anymore. There is an artificial heart in the form of a pump that keeps your blood circulating during a major surgery like that. I've been hooked up to one of those things before during other surgeries and you don't die because your bodily functions are being done for you by an outside source. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about here.

 

I didn't have anything hooked up to me to keep my blood oxygenated, and I was as dead as you can get. My entire body had shut down and I had to be revived forcibly and then spent three days on machines that took care of my breathing and kept my heart stable after that. What you're suggesting is controlled and not even close to what happened to me.

 

So you are saying you were brain dead? You are being vague about what you consider death. If your blood was not oxygenated your brain would have been damaged. I think all you are saying is that you were on the verge of death and they resuscitated you.

 

BTW - I do agree some people claim they experience NDEs when near death, hence the term Near Death Experience.

[par4dcourse]

 

And will kill to get it.

 

Your words make no sense ...

1) He has no needs so He it makes no sense He would do as you say.

2) He created us so our physical bodies are His.

3) The act of causing physical death carries no meaning for the omnipotent creator.

 

And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

(Mat 3:9)

Any proof of those claims outside the big book of Jewish fairy tales?

[OrdinaryClay]

There's no part of the OBE that can't be better explained by functions of the brain in certain individuals, or, as you put it, scamsters trying to cash in on people's vulnerabilities.  And I agree, death and what occurs can be tested to some capacity. We don't know for certain that unconsciousness is a perpetual thing, but because the mind is the brain, there's no reason to suspect that it is not.

No neuroscience cannot explain all NDEs. Study Veridical NDEs.

 

If you claim they are all "scamsters" then I could simply claim you are scamming us to placate your own fear of the afterlife. Ad hoc claim for an ad hoc claim.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

At any rate, my heart stopped beating and I was quite dead for a brief period on two separate occasions. I have more insight into death than pretty much anyone here most likely. If someone else has had a similar experience, they haven't spoken of it. [i don't blame them if they haven't, it wasn't exactly fun, though the worst of it was after, not during.]

If your definition of dead is that your heart stopped beating then people do this many times every day as they undergo open heart surgery. It is standard procedure to stop their hearts during operations that can last hours.

 

 

Um, no. My function stopped and my blood was not pumping anymore. There is an artificial heart in the form of a pump that keeps your blood circulating during a major surgery like that. I've been hooked up to one of those things before during other surgeries and you don't die because your bodily functions are being done for you by an outside source. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about here.

 

I didn't have anything hooked up to me to keep my blood oxygenated, and I was as dead as you can get. My entire body had shut down and I had to be revived forcibly and then spent three days on machines that took care of my breathing and kept my heart stable after that. What you're suggesting is controlled and not even close to what happened to me.

 

So you are saying you were brain dead? You are being vague about what you consider death. If your blood was not oxygenated your brain would have been damaged. I think all you are saying is that you were on the verge of death and they resuscitated you.

 

BTW - I do agree some people claim they experience NDEs when near death, hence the term Near Death Experience.

 

 

Reading your posts is a Near Death Experience. Your retorts suffer from hypoxia. Christianity is functional brain death.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Others claim different experiences. So why do you assume yours is the definitive answer?

 

 

 

I never said that I had a definitive answer. There you go putting words in the mouths of others again. You do that a lot and it's a bad habit. I never suggested any such thing. I got into that in the longer post above this one, and I readily admit that my story is anecdotal. It is merely a relation of my perspective on my own experience and what I've heard from others that I know have shared the same experience. Like I said above, I've met several others and even attend a support group for people who have had experiences like mine. I don't need to go very often, but I do attend occasionally to offer support for others who are having a harder time of it than I have.

 

At any rate, I'm almost a hundred percent sure I've got more experience than you do in the matter. Even though that doesn't 'prove' anything, it does mean that my word carries a bit of weight as it's a subject I have direct personal experience with, and is not something I've merely heard from someone else. I'm not giving a second hand account, it's a first hand account. That's not solid evidence of course, but it does mean that I know more about it than you do.

 

Even if you did claim to have an experience like mine, I would still find claims of an afterlife suspect. Even if you could prove that you died with medical documentation, the weight of evidence I've seen against such wild tales would far outweigh even a first hand anecdotal story. It would be a single account against quite a few others that do not support that account. That would leave me with more reason to suspect dishonesty than anything else. This isn't something someone is going to simply talk or debate me out of believing. I've seen too much evidence that supports my observations. It's not a matter of faith either, observations I've personally made and the observations of others I know who have the same kind of experience don't support the idea that there is any kind of existence after death. That makes it an evidence based belief and not a faith based belief. There is no good reason for me to think otherwise, and no one is going to simply 'discuss' the evidence I've seen and heard away.

 

What I've seen and heard from others like me suggest to me that there is no such thing as an afterlife. I don't care if that proves anything or not, and I do not and never have suggested that it is a definitive answer. Only that from my perspective and personal experience it is most likely that there is no life after death. I don't really care if you believe that there is an afterlife, but I see no reason to share your beliefs since they do not fit with what I've seen for myself and what I've heard from others who have had the same experience. It doesn't fit the evidence I've seen, and I really can't offer any more proof than an anecdotal story of my own first hand account and that I've heard first hand from others who have had the same experience that their experience was similar to my own and supports my observations.

 

While not solid scientific evidence, it's enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that my observations about the lack of existence of an afterlife are correct to me. I only seek to offer my perspective on the topic of the afterlife and death because I've had experience with it myself and it's relevant to the topic at hand.

 

I accept the testimony of your experience. I was pointing out that any attempt by you to use this to project your experience as more valid or more definitive then others would be invalid.

 

Given what you've said so far I don't think you have actually studied the subject much. No doubt their are fakes in the mix. There always are in the world of the supernatural. In fact, fakes would be expected so to discount every case because fakes exist would not be  a reasonable thing to do.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

 

 

 

OdinaryClay, have you ever asked yourself why god, angels and demons are invisible, does that not set alam bells off for you.

Yes, I have asked myself this. I then quickly asked myself how visible should they be? What do people really mean when they say visible? What most are really asking is, Why doesn't God perform tricks for me.

 

After many years, I came to the conclusion that, one, God is not as hidden as people claim He is, and two, the natural world is part of a greater reality, and that saying God is hidden is akin to a fish saying trees are hidden.

Then ill ask this question, why does god, angels and demons remain invisible when they don't have to?

Why do you hide premises in your questions?

There has to be a reason for the heavenly hosts to remain hidden, silent and up to you to make a interpretation of them for us. Why do they need you or any other christian for that matter. Wouldnt it be much better for me and the rest of us if god spoke to us first hand instead of using a middle man like yourself who is bound to fuck understanding god up for the rest of us.

You inject many arbitrary assumptions.

 

Who said God needs us? I see no reason whatsoever to assume God needs anything form any of us - including preachers. God has no needs. All we do for God is for our benefit. Not His.

 

You assume because you don't believe He is "hidden". Again, as I've said before what many people mean by hidden is that God does not perform tricks on demand. He may not blind me while walking down the road, but He is not hidden to me and millions of others.

 

God's word is crystal clear. We screw it up because of who and what we are not because He lacks clarity.

 

So please tell me. How should God have revealed himself to neolithic tribes men?

You admit god needs nothing and no one, not even you? Then why are you here?

 

What do you say to this.

 

"All we do for God is for our benefit."

 

So your trying to convert us for your benefit, well at least your honest.

 

As for god revealing himself to primitive man, your walking into a shit storm by debating how evolution has to fit into your own personal beliefs.

 

Notice I did not say "All I do for God is for My benefit". You do understand the difference don't you?

 

Yes, If God is an omnipotent, omniscient and eternal being it would follow that He has no needs.