What If Tarot Is Real?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Hey CG and R3alchild!

 

I gotta run now - but I've got something in mind, to reply to your latest posts. 

Hang in there.  I'll get back to you sometime tomorrow.

 

Bye.

 

BAA

 

I'm sure you do. You're more knowledgeable about apologetic responses than I am since I never really got involved in apologetics as a believer and learned more about it than ever before after I deconverted.

[ContraBardus]

I never cared much for the term 'supernatural'. It's actually kind of an oxymoron.

 

If something like that does exists, then it is by definition natural. Even if it is spiritual in nature, it's a part of the natural order and therefore not 'super' natural at all. Unknown perhaps, undefined perhaps, but natural none the less.

 

Now, if it is something that was created by humans, processed, built, or imagined, then it would fit the 'classical' definition of 'unnatural'. I.E. Natural Cheese vs. Processed Cheese Product.

 

So, I suppose that I would agree that God, Kali, and the mystical powers of Tarot cards are 'super-natural' in the sense that they are not natural things. They are entirely created by humans and do not occur or exist in the natural world.

[Guest r3alchild]

[stryper]

or perhaps in the case of tarot they are allowing access to natural parts of us that we have yet to quantify.  

 

[bornagainathiest]

Back again! 

 

 

 

 

 

Notice what Clay's saying and what he's not saying?

He's saying there is evidence for the supernatural, but this evidence is exempt from objective, scientific investigation.

Q.
So what other, objective method of investigation can be used to investigate it?

A.
Clay's so far failed to provide one..
.
.
.

Please draw your own conclusions.

BAA

He is probably not able to provide an answer as to another objective means of investigating the supernatural. If the supernatural exists, you would need to rely on personal experience with a spiritual entity and could never objectively prove to others that it is real. If there are ghosts and demons, I doubt most of them care about the living being able to prove their existence so likely they would never be around when people tried to scientifically investigate their existence.

However, I would think that if his god existed, as an all powerful being that wanted everyone to know he was real, he would present himself in a way that he can be scientifically proven to be real instead of forcing everyone to rely on feelings, personal experience, and hearsay. If his god wanted everyone to know that the supernatural was real, he would force ghosts and demons into a situation in which they must present themselves in such a way that they can be proven as real, scientifically. If OC's god does not do these things, then he must either not be real or not really have any interest in letting everyone know that he is real or that the supernatural is real in an objective and scientific way.

Perhaps so CG,

But the counter argument to yours might be this. There's no need for God to make the supernatural known to humans by forcing the issue. He's already made the supernatural easily and plainly seen.
The Bible even describes it.

Romans 1: 18 - 20.
¹⁸ The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
¹⁹ since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
²⁰ For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

See that?
Everyone who's ever lived has been without excuse for not seeing what God has made plain to them. The supernatural has been clearly shown to us - but we've wilfully chosen not to see it and to deny it's existence.

Any questions?

BAA

If you think about that verse its absurd. How can a invisible cause lead you to know its self by its visible effect. You would never know a cause of an effect if the cause was not detectable.

 

But that's the whole point, r3alchild!

 

Because you cannot see God (the cause) and can only see what's around you (the visible effect of His creative power)  the apostle Paul says that you should conclude that something invisible (God) created (caused) every visible thing you can see.   You should conclude that all of these visible things (the sky, the world, living creatures, etc.) speak of God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and His divine nature.

 

Confused?  Don't worry, I'll explain lower down.

 

That same scripture could be used to say that an invisible unicorn created the entire universe and since things exist, everyone is without excuse for not knowing that the invisible unicorn is real.

 

No CG, that's not right!

 

What's more... you know in your heart that's not right.  There's point in denying it, as I'll explain.

To understand how this works guys, you need to compare Romans 1: 18 -20 (see above) with Romans 2 : 14 -16 and then work backwards, from chapter 2 to chapter 1.

"14.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required of the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

15.

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times defending them.

16.

This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

 

Ok then , some explanation.

 

God gave his law to the Jews via Moses - therefore the Jews have the law.  Everyone else is a Gentile and we do not have the law.  The law was meant exclusively for the Jews, to teach them how God wanted them to live and behave.  The Jews know what is good and what is evil because it was written all down for them by Moses - as dictated to him by God.

 

In verse 14 Paul says that some Gentiles do good by their very nature - even though they've never even heard of the Jews or Moses or Jesus.  So, how is this possible?  How can Greeks and Romans or the Aztecs or the Zulu's or any human who's ever lived (who isn't a Jew) do good, when God's law isn't there to guide them? 

  

Verse 15 tells us that God works invisibly in the hearts, consciences and minds of all of us Gentiles, so that we instinctively know good and evil, even though we don't know HOW we know this.  God doesn't reveal himself to us or speak to us or give us visions and dreams.  Nope.  He secretly implants an understanding of good and evil into us, so that it's in our very nature to be able to know and do good, as well as evil.

 

We know that God works invisibly and secretly like this because verse 16 says that on Judgement Day, everyone's inner secrets will be revealed by Jesus.  This is a bit like knowing how the final chapter of a book reads, before you're even halfway thru it.  If the last chapter says that the hero marries his sweetheart, then you know for certain that in an earlier chapter he must meet and fall in love with this gal, right?

 

That's how Paul works things.  Because God has revealed to him that Jesus will uncovered our inner secrets on the Last Day, we therefore must have these inner secrets.  Simple logic. And since God's secretly made sure that we all know good and evil (by writing this on our hearts), when we are judged by Jesus, our consciences will bear witness to this fact. On Judgement Day our own thoughts will accuse and/or defend us... but only Jesus can save us.

.

.

.

Now we can jump back to Romans 1.

 

R3alchild, we should conclude that the invisible God made everything that we see around us.  We should conclude that God has made his eternal power and divine nature plain to us.  We should conclude that we are therefore without excuse for denying these obvious things.

 

Why? 

Because we know in our hearts that it's evil to conclude anything else.  God has secretly given us the ability to know this.  Our consciences bear witness to it.  Our thoughts confirm this. 

 

CrazyGuy, you could claim that an invisible unicorn created everything - but God has secretly made sure that you know in your heart-of-hearts that this thought is wrong and evil and comes from Satan, the Father of all Lies.

.

.

 

 

You see how God's made sure we're all screwed?

He's ****ed us all over!  Every time we deny it, we're actually confirming it!  He's rigged the whole game in his favor and there's no way we can ever dodge the inevitable result.

 

Any questions, suckers?

 

BAA

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

CrazyGuy, you could claim that an invisible unicorn created everything - but God has secretly made sure that you know in your heart-of-hearts that this thought is wrong and evil and comes from Satan, the Father of all Lies.

 

Since you represent a Christian apologist in this discussion BAA, my response is only to the apologists who might use the arguments you have presented.

 

My response: The invisible unicorn that created everything has secretly made sure that everyone knows that it created the entire universe, so you should know that believing the Bible god created the universe is stupid and is a lie that comes from the members of an evil cult who desire to suck you in and steal your soul. The invisible unicorn is not a monster and does not think that being in error about what one believes is evil, but it certainly thinks that it is stupid to believe what a cult tells you because you are afraid of their god.

 

How is that response to a potential apologist BAA?

[seeker001]

So if God made existance obvious to everyone, than why aren't babies made instinctively aware of it. There are some things that babies are aware of naturally that are critical to life, such as breathing, moving, and crying out for attention. Wouldn't implanting the child with an innate instinct to do good and follow the godly ways be better? Why continue to allow humanity to have the curse of Adam and Eve with an instinct to embrace sin? That poor child didn't have anything to do with Adam and Eve. 

[Guest r3alchild]

Back again!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Notice what Clay's saying and what he's not saying?

 

He's saying there is evidence for the supernatural, but this evidence is exempt from objective, scientific investigation.

 

Q.

So what other, objective method of investigation can be used to investigate it?

 

A.

Clay's so far failed to provide one..

.

.

.

 

Please draw your own conclusions.

 

BAA

He is probably not able to provide an answer as to another objective means of investigating the supernatural. If the supernatural exists, you would need to rely on personal experience with a spiritual entity and could never objectively prove to others that it is real. If there are ghosts and demons, I doubt most of them care about the living being able to prove their existence so likely they would never be around when people tried to scientifically investigate their existence.

 

However, I would think that if his god existed, as an all powerful being that wanted everyone to know he was real, he would present himself in a way that he can be scientifically proven to be real instead of forcing everyone to rely on feelings, personal experience, and hearsay. If his god wanted everyone to know that the supernatural was real, he would force ghosts and demons into a situation in which they must present themselves in such a way that they can be proven as real, scientifically. If OC's god does not do these things, then he must either not be real or not really have any interest in letting everyone know that he is real or that the supernatural is real in an objective and scientific way.

Perhaps so CG,

 

But the counter argument to yours might be this. There's no need for God to make the supernatural known to humans by forcing the issue. He's already made the supernatural easily and plainly seen.

The Bible even describes it.

 

Romans 1: 18 - 20.

¹⁸ The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

¹⁹ since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

²⁰ For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

See that?

Everyone who's ever lived has been without excuse for not seeing what God has made plain to them. The supernatural has been clearly shown to us - but we've wilfully chosen not to see it and to deny it's existence.

 

Any questions?

 

BAA

If you think about that verse its absurd. How can a invisible cause lead you to know its self by its visible effect. You would never know a cause of an effect if the cause was not detectable.

 

But that's the whole point, r3alchild!

 

Because you cannot see God (the cause) and can only see what's around you (the visible effect of His creative power) the apostle Paul says that you should conclude that something invisible (God) created (caused) every visible thing you can see. You should conclude that all of these visible things (the sky, the world, living creatures, etc.) speak of God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and His divine nature.

 

Confused? Don't worry, I'll explain lower down.

That same scripture could be used to say that an invisible unicorn created the entire universe and since things exist, everyone is without excuse for not knowing that the invisible unicorn is real.

 

No CG, that's not right!

 

What's more... you know in your heart that's not right. There's point in denying it, as I'll explain.

To understand how this works guys, you need to compare Romans 1: 18 -20 (see above) with Romans 2 : 14 -16 and then work backwards, from chapter 2 to chapter 1.

"14.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required of the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

15.

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times defending them.

16.

This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

 

Ok then , some explanation.

 

God gave his law to the Jews via Moses - therefore the Jews have the law. Everyone else is a Gentile and we do not have the law. The law was meant exclusively for the Jews, to teach them how God wanted them to live and behave. The Jews know what is good and what is evil because it was written all down for them by Moses - as dictated to him by God.

 

In verse 14 Paul says that some Gentiles do good by their very nature - even though they've never even heard of the Jews or Moses or Jesus. So, how is this possible? How can Greeks and Romans or the Aztecs or the Zulu's or any human who's ever lived (who isn't a Jew) do good, when God's law isn't there to guide them?

 

Verse 15 tells us that God works invisibly in the hearts, consciences and minds of all of us Gentiles, so that we instinctively know good and evil, even though we don't know HOW we know this. God doesn't reveal himself to us or speak to us or give us visions and dreams. Nope. He secretly implants an understanding of good and evil into us, so that it's in our very nature to be able to know and do good, as well as evil.

 

We know that God works invisibly and secretly like this because verse 16 says that on Judgement Day, everyone's inner secrets will be revealed by Jesus. This is a bit like knowing how the final chapter of a book reads, before you're even halfway thru it. If the last chapter says that the hero marries his sweetheart, then you know for certain that in an earlier chapter he must meet and fall in love with this gal, right?

 

That's how Paul works things. Because God has revealed to him that Jesus will uncovered our inner secrets on the Last Day, we therefore must have these inner secrets. Simple logic. And since God's secretly made sure that we all know good and evil (by writing this on our hearts), when we are judged by Jesus, our consciences will bear witness to this fact. On Judgement Day our own thoughts will accuse and/or defend us... but only Jesus can save us.

.

.

.

Now we can jump back to Romans 1.

 

R3alchild, we should conclude that the invisible God made everything that we see around us. We should conclude that God has made his eternal power and divine nature plain to us. We should conclude that we are therefore without excuse for denying these obvious things.

 

Why?

Because we know in our hearts that it's evil to conclude anything else. God has secretly given us the ability to know this. Our consciences bear witness to it. Our thoughts confirm this.

 

CrazyGuy, you could claim that an invisible unicorn created everything - but God has secretly made sure that you know in your heart-of-hearts that this thought is wrong and evil and comes from Satan, the Father of all Lies.

.

.

 

 

You see how God's made sure we're all screwed?

He's ****ed us all over! Every time we deny it, we're actually confirming it! He's rigged the whole game in his favor and there's no way we can ever dodge the inevitable result.

 

Any questions, suckers?

 

BAA

Yeah, theres no such thing as free will if god has forced us to know good from evil.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Yeah, theres no such thing as free will if god has forced us to know good from evil.

 

 

I guess I'm a little bit confused how knowing the difference between good and evil would mean we didn't have free will, even if the knowledge was forced. As long as we were not forced to be born with an overwhelming desire to be either good or evil then we would still have free will. But when it comes to the "knowledge" of good and evil the Bible and the apologists say we were forced to have, we most certainly do not have free will.

 

The good and evil in the Bible is completely subjective and appears as nothing more than subjective human morality. It appears that the "moral code" of the Bible was just thrown together by a psychopath of a deity using any excuse he can to be sadistic to people. Since we know that homosexuality harms no one, it really has no reason to be considered immoral, but if the Bible god is real, I could easily imagine him making it a sin for people to engage in homosexuality, while forcing them to be born with that sexual orientation, just so he can order them to be stoned for giving in to an overwhelming desire they could not fight as adults, for his own sadistic entertainment. That is just one example that I can think of.

 

The commandment about the sabbath is another one that comes to mind. Clearly doing work on a Saturday harms no one. It may be inconvenient because most people would like to relax and have fun on Saturdays, but it's still stupid to require people to not work on Saturdays. When the penalty for gathering fire wood or for cooking a meal for the kids on a Saturday is death by stoning, it appears as though the Bible god just needed an excuse to be sadistic. If the Bible god's laws were supposed to last forever and the Christians stopped the nonsense about how they don't need to follow the old laws anymore, they would be threatening every person that did work on the Sabbath with Hell. "IF you water your flower garden on the Sabbath, you will go to Hell if you do not repent!" But apparently, if the works are good ones, I guess Yahweh decided to be okay with that when he sent his son to Earth on a suicide mission, so paramedics, doctors, surgeons, nurses, and firefighters, you're safe from Hell if you do your job on the Sabbath.

 

But really, the Bible god never really gave anyone knowledge of good and evil. If he exists, then he has given us a crappy moral code that makes no sense; labeling things that cause unnecessary harm and suffering as good and things that harm no one and benefit the people that do it as evil. The worst part of the whole deal is the fact that the Bible god forces people to be born with an overwhelming desire to sin against him because Adam and Eve were gullible enough to listen to a talking snake (but they were also gullible for ever trusting Yahweh...) He makes it impossible for people to avoid doing things that he does not like, so that we can only ever fail and be condemned to death and be required to repent of sins and make Yahweh happy again.

 

So r3alchild, hopefully I have helped you to deprogram some more today, if you haven't already been deprogrammed in this manner before. One thing that would be a good thing to tell apologists who say that "God secretly places knowledge of good and evil inside of us" is something that might scare them a little bit. Say, "You know what! I am beginning to realize that what you are saying is true! I realize that all along the knowledge has always been inside of me. Now I see that torturing children to test their faith is perfectly moral and good! I see that slavery is a good thing and should become legal all over again! Abusing slaves as long as they don't die in a couple of days is perfectly okay. If you do not believe that, then you are ignoring God's moral code he gave us and denying what is good. Any time people that live far away sin against God, it would be moral and good for me to go in and kill them, including the children, infants, and pets! Hell, I'll kill the family gold fish, just for good measure! If it was moral and good for the Isrealites, it should be moral and good for me too, right?"

 

If you said that, the apologist, who might have a better moral code than his or her own god, will have this reaction.   Once they walked away, you would likely and realize that you defeated them at their own game!

[ContraBardus]

 

Yeah, theres no such thing as free will if god has forced us to know good from evil.

 

 

I guess I'm a little bit confused how knowing the difference between good and evil would mean we didn't have free will, even if the knowledge was forced. As long as we were not forced to be born with an overwhelming desire to be either good or evil then we would still have free will. But when it comes to the "knowledge" of good and evil the Bible and the apologists say we were forced to have, we most certainly do not have free will.

 

The good and evil in the Bible is completely subjective and appears as nothing more than subjective human morality. It appears that the "moral code" of the Bible was just thrown together by a psychopath of a deity using any excuse he can to be sadistic to people. Since we know that homosexuality harms no one, it really has no reason to be considered immoral, but if the Bible god is real, I could easily imagine him making it a sin for people to engage in homosexuality, while forcing them to be born with that sexual orientation, just so he can order them to be stoned for giving in to an overwhelming desire they could not fight as adults, for his own sadistic entertainment. That is just one example that I can think of.

 

The commandment about the sabbath is another one that comes to mind. Clearly doing work on a Saturday harms no one. It may be inconvenient because most people would like to relax and have fun on Saturdays, but it's still stupid to require people to not work on Saturdays. When the penalty for gathering fire wood or for cooking a meal for the kids on a Saturday is death by stoning, it appears as though the Bible god just needed an excuse to be sadistic. If the Bible god's laws were supposed to last forever and the Christians stopped the nonsense about how they don't need to follow the old laws anymore, they would be threatening every person that did work on the Sabbath with Hell. "IF you water your flower garden on the Sabbath, you will go to Hell if you do not repent!" But apparently, if the works are good ones, I guess Yahweh decided to be okay with that when he sent his son to Earth on a suicide mission, so paramedics, doctors, surgeons, nurses, and firefighters, you're safe from Hell if you do your job on the Sabbath.

 

But really, the Bible god never really gave anyone knowledge of good and evil. If he exists, then he has given us a crappy moral code that makes no sense; labeling things that cause unnecessary harm and suffering as good and things that harm no one and benefit the people that do it as evil. The worst part of the whole deal is the fact that the Bible god forces people to be born with an overwhelming desire to sin against him because Adam and Eve were gullible enough to listen to a talking snake (but they were also gullible for ever trusting Yahweh...) He makes it impossible for people to avoid doing things that he does not like, so that we can only ever fail and be condemned to death and be required to repent of sins and make Yahweh happy again.

 

So r3alchild, hopefully I have helped you to deprogram some more today, if you haven't already been deprogrammed in this manner before. One thing that would be a good thing to tell apologists who say that "God secretly places knowledge of good and evil inside of us" is something that might scare them a little bit. Say, "You know what! I am beginning to realize that what you are saying is true! I realize that all along the knowledge has always been inside of me. Now I see that torturing children to test their faith is perfectly moral and good! I see that slavery is a good thing and should become legal all over again! Abusing slaves as long as they don't die in a couple of days is perfectly okay. If you do not believe that, then you are ignoring God's moral code he gave us and denying what is good. Any time people that live far away sin against God, it would be moral and good for me to go in and kill them, including the children, infants, and pets! Hell, I'll kill the family gold fish, just for good measure! If it was moral and good for the Isrealites, it should be moral and good for me too, right?"

 

If you said that, the apologist, who might have a better moral code than his or her own god, will have this reaction.   Once they walked away, you would likely and realize that you defeated them at their own game!

 

 

Not really, the apologist will start on a just as irrational rant about how 'Jesus fulfilled the 'Old Law' and that those things don't apply anymore. Sure Jesus says that he didn't change any of those laws, but since he fulfilled them they are no longer applicable to us and we should just 'follow his word'. To most Christians, only the NT is important, unless of course you're talking about the 'laws' that let them have power over women, discriminate against gays, and vote Republican.

I mean, God hates Fags, but that 'All You Can Eat Shrimp Buffet' is surely a gift from him, and that Butterfly Tattoo over the little woman's ass is just so hot and that tribal ring on his arm was just so in at the time, and a ponytail is just sporting fashion, and not something expressly forbidden by God's word. Jesus said it was okay, he'd smooth things over with the old dude for ya.

I guess only some of those OT laws are okay, and I'm sure that God lets you know. He comes to you in your dreams disguised as Bob Barker and whispers them sweetly into your ear. It's not your imagination, because you're not that creative to begin with, and it certainly isn't the Devil, because you'd never listen to Satan and he wouldn't talk to you because you're so awesome to your good buddy Jesus. He eats at your house every night in that chair that just looks like it's empty.

Jesus made that stuff go away. He fulfilled the old law, so you can ignore the direct commands from the guy who will supposedly toss you into a pit of fire for eternity for not listening to him. You know, the one with the nasty temper.

His son is totally in charge now, so you don't have to worry. I mean, it's not like Jesus would have any reason to be afraid of his Dad right? I'm sure the worst thing OT God has ever done to Jr. is maybe ground him for a week.

 

It doesn't make any more sense than that, but they have an out for trying to use the Morals of OT God against them. I've gotten the 'Jesus fulfilled the 'Old Law' line quite a few times. Usually I just say something like the above and it usually pisses them off enough to leave me alone. Doesn't really accomplish more than that, they still continue to be stupid despite it. If they remain, they'll usually start quoting irrelevant Bible verses until I start asking what it has to do anything, and that usually leads to a change of subject. They'll try another angle to show me how wrong I am about Magic Jew the Wondrous God on a Stick.

[midniterider]

or perhaps in the case of tarot they are allowing access to natural parts of us that we have yet to quantify.  

 

 

Some pagans I talk to consider tarot readings, ouija boards, pendulums and other forms of divination are just allowing you to connect to that which you are normally not connected to. Religious people might call it communication with God or spirits. Other secular types or [pseudo] scientific types might call it the subconscious. Like you say we have yet to quantify it and thus do not really understand it. But sometimes it wakes me up in the middle of the night and out of nowhere...poof... inspiration appears.

 

As Contrabardus mentioned before, something that exists is natural so 'supernatural' really is a misnomer for unexplained phenomena.

[Guest r3alchild]

Deprograming is horrible at times... Its like its going on for ever, yeah Im out but still in some how. Why the fuck would I want it to be true. I am terrified that something so fucked up will happen to me and ill panic and run back to my faith.

 

I am so hurt about it all but even more hurt that I can't trust myself that I will stay away for good.

[stryper]

 

or perhaps in the case of tarot they are allowing access to natural parts of us that we have yet to quantify.  

 

 

Some pagans I talk to consider tarot readings, ouija boards, pendulums and other forms of divination are just allowing you to connect to that which you are normally not connected to. Religious people might call it communication with God or spirits. Other secular types or [pseudo] scientific types might call it the subconscious. Like you say we have yet to quantify it and thus do not really understand it. But sometimes it wakes me up in the middle of the night and out of nowhere...poof... inspiration appears.

 

As Contrabardus mentioned before, something that exists is natural so 'supernatural' really is a misnomer for unexplained phenomena.

 

 

I believe I have said before that I find it a failure of science to properly investigate this.  

 

THat said.

 

The reasons it hasn't is because of the strong association with quackery.  

 

However, neuroscience seems to be tentatively investigating what goes on in the subconscious and the connections between people.   

 

So perhaps something will happen in the relatively near future.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

CrazyGuy, you could claim that an invisible unicorn created everything - but God has secretly made sure that you know in your heart-of-hearts that this thought is wrong and evil and comes from Satan, the Father of all Lies.

 

Since you represent a Christian apologist in this discussion BAA, my response is only to the apologists who might use the arguments you have presented.

 

My response: The invisible unicorn that created everything has secretly made sure that everyone knows that it created the entire universe, so you should know that believing the Bible god created the universe is stupid and is a lie that comes from the members of an evil cult who desire to suck you in and steal your soul. The invisible unicorn is not a monster and does not think that being in error about what one believes is evil, but it certainly thinks that it is stupid to believe what a cult tells you because you are afraid of their god.

 

How is that response to a potential apologist BAA?

 

 

 

 

Not bad, CG!

 

But you trip yourself up, here... "an evil cult".

 

If you know this cult is evil (because they lie) that must be because you have the knowledge of good and evil (secretly and undetectably) written on your heart by God.  If you were a complete innocent, as Adam and Eve were before they tasted the fruit of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, then you'd be unable to recognize good from evil, wouldn't you?  Neither of them had the ability to know that the serpent (Satan) was lying to them, did they?  If they had known, then they wouldn't have been innocent, would they? 

 

But, since you can and have recognized this cult as evil, you must therefore be able to distinguish between the two things.  This means that you do have the ability and knowledge to recognize and distinguish between good (truth) and evil (lies).  Which means that you must have inherited this ability from Adam and Eve.  And since all human societies, cultures and races instinctively know good from evil, everyone must therefore be descended from Adam and Eve too.

 

By writing about evil CG, you've confirmed the apostle Paul and the Bible are right and that scripture is true.

Adam and Eve did exist and they were totally innocent, but they disobeyed God and acquired the knowledge of good and evil.  All succeeding generations of humans have this knowledge written on their hearts by God - including us.  This is why Paul writes about the wrath of God being revealed against those (all non-Jews, the Gentiles) who inwardly knew good from evil (just as we do) and who always deliberately chose to do evil... just as we continue to do.

 

Which is why your invisible unicorn story is an evil lie from Satan.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Still playing devil's advocate here CG... so don't sweat it! 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

CrazyGuy, you could claim that an invisible unicorn created everything - but God has secretly made sure that you know in your heart-of-hearts that this thought is wrong and evil and comes from Satan, the Father of all Lies.

 

Since you represent a Christian apologist in this discussion BAA, my response is only to the apologists who might use the arguments you have presented.

 

My response: The invisible unicorn that created everything has secretly made sure that everyone knows that it created the entire universe, so you should know that believing the Bible god created the universe is stupid and is a lie that comes from the members of an evil cult who desire to suck you in and steal your soul. The invisible unicorn is not a monster and does not think that being in error about what one believes is evil, but it certainly thinks that it is stupid to believe what a cult tells you because you are afraid of their god.

 

How is that response to a potential apologist BAA?

 

 

 

 

Not bad, CG!

 

But you trip yourself up, here... "an evil cult".

 

If you know this cult is evil (because they lie) that must be because you have the knowledge of good and evil (secretly and undetectably) written on your heart by God.  If you were a complete innocent, as Adam and Eve were before they tasted the fruit of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, then you'd be unable to recognize good from evil, wouldn't you?  Neither of them had the ability to know that the serpent (Satan) was lying to them, did they?  If they had known, then they wouldn't have been innocent, would they? 

 

But, since you can and have recognized this cult as evil, you must therefore be able to distinguish between the two things.  This means that you do have the ability and knowledge to recognize and distinguish between good (truth) and evil (lies).  Which means that you must have inherited this ability from Adam and Eve.  And since all human societies, cultures and races instinctively know good from evil, everyone must therefore be descended from Adam and Eve too.

 

By writing about evil CG, you've confirmed the apostle Paul and the Bible are right and that scripture is true.

Adam and Eve did exist and they were totally innocent, but they disobeyed God and acquired the knowledge of good and evil.  All succeeding generations of humans have this knowledge written on their hearts by God - including us.  This is why Paul writes about the wrath of God being revealed against those (all non-Jews, the Gentiles) who inwardly knew good from evil (just as we do) and who always deliberately chose to do evil... just as we continue to do.

 

Which is why your invisible unicorn story is an evil lie from Satan.

 

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Still playing devil's advocate here CG... so don't sweat it! 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

Oh, silly me... Did I forget to mention that the invisible unicorn secretly implanted all people with the wisdom to know the difference between good and evil? Oh, by the way Christian apologist, Adam and Eve were not the first two people. They were actually some idiot children who ate poisonous berries from a tree and when their single father saw a serpent in the tree, he thought the serpent had told them to eat from it when he told them not to eat from the tree!

 

The serpent in the tree was cut up by the father and eaten later by his tribe and because it was an extremely venomous serpent, the human father who killed it was deified by a cult that arose within that tribe. It is a true story, but the invisible unicorn told me in a personal revelation that the true story was never documented and recorded because the tribe members were illiterate, but the cult members who deified the human father learned how to write later on and they wrote the modified version of the tale down.

 

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I know you're still playing devil's advocate. And I'm not sure what my role is called, but I'm still playing it too.

[OrdinaryClay]

I never cared much for the term 'supernatural'. It's actually kind of an oxymoron.

 

If something like that does exists, then it is by definition natural. Even if it is spiritual in nature, it's a part of the natural order and therefore not 'super' natural at all. Unknown perhaps, undefined perhaps, but natural none the less.

 

So you are declaring based on your own faith that the supernatural does not exist because anything supernatural would be natural. That is stupefyingly circular.

[OrdinaryClay]

or perhaps in the case of tarot they are allowing access to natural parts of us that we have yet to quantify.  

 

Or perhaps people will jump through absurd hoops to avoid believing in the supernatural because deep down it scares the shit out of them.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

OdinaryClay, have you ever asked yourself why god, angels and demons are invisible, does that not set alam bells off for you.

Yes, I have asked myself this. I then quickly asked myself how visible should they be? What do people really mean when they say visible? What most are really asking is, Why doesn't God perform tricks for me.

 

After many years, I came to the conclusion that, one, God is not as hidden as people claim He is, and two, the natural world is part of a greater reality, and that saying God is hidden is akin to a fish saying trees are hidden.

Then ill ask this question, why does god, angels and demons remain invisible when they don't have to?

 

Why do you hide premises in your questions?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

Someone can be skeptical of the supernatural and yet dabble it, perhaps trying to find a rational explanation for it or maybe just for the lulz. I believe that the supernatural is something that science has yet to be able to explain. At one time people thought thunder and volcanic activity was purely from the wrath of god, but now people know it is just part of the natural cycle of this planet. 

Science disagrees. The vast majority of scientists believe the supernatural is not science and never will be.I agree with them.

 

Science doesn't disagree with that.

Supernatural means that something can not be explained within in the laws of nature. And since the laws of nature are subject to change you cant realy call anything supernatural.

Science looks for answers where there are none (no point in researching stuff we already know right).

 

The laws of nature are subject to discovery not change.

[Astreja]

Or perhaps people will jump through absurd hoops to avoid believing in the supernatural because deep down it scares the shit out of them.

 

I, on the other hand, am not the least bit scared of "the supernatural."  My woo-ish side has been tinkering with it since I was about 9 or 10 years old, and I'd like nothing better than to obtain empirical evidence that magic is real -- So that I can tap into its power more effectively.  

 

(Springy G cracks Her knuckles, pets the 20-pound tabby cat that's lounging on Her desk, and takes a sip of the cocktail She invented this evening from soda water and Green Chartreuse)  So here's the deal, OC:  For the next 100 days or so, I am going to specifically target *you* at random dates and times with My divine powers, with the specific intent of turning your life inside-out, upside-down and ass-backwards.

 

And that's all you get to know.  Defend yourself... If you can.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

 

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

If it was real there would be an enourmous body of evidence that it was real. 

Why do you assume this? We are talking about the supernatural not the natural. You are projecting empirical thinking which is not valid.

 

Actually, if we assume the entities in control of the occult are malicious adversaries then it would follow they would use subterfuge.

 

If it had any influence on the natural world it would be measurable and thus there would be evidence of it's influence.  If it was real but had no influence, how is that distinguishable from non-existant?

 

It is measurable, it is not repeatable therefore you cannot on demand just create a measurement. You must rely on personal experience or testimony. And now someone will jump in with yet another vacuous diatribe about how personal experience and testimony are not evidence. Which is simply a goofy position since they will expect all of us to believe such non-sense based on their testimony

 

Bullshit!  You cannot, on demand, create an anecdote that equals evidence.  Anecdote is no different than opinion.  If you allow that as evidence, then my anecdote of "tarot is bullshit" is just as addmissable and nullifies anything you bring.  You will only accept anecdotes that support your position and dismiss the rest.  This is why they they aren't evidence, opinion is not fact.

 

Did I call it or what!

 

Nothing you said can be backed up scientifically so your own post is anecdotal. It is stunning how myopic and short sighted this form of science worship is. Science is powerful and a valuable tool, but it does not provide all the evidence we need to live by.

[OrdinaryClay]

Notice what Clay's saying and what he's not saying?

 

He's saying there is evidence for the supernatural, but this evidence is exempt from objective, scientific investigation.

 

Q.

So what other, objective method of investigation can be used to investigate it?

 

A.

Clay's so far failed to provide one..

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.

.

 

Please draw your own conclusions.

 

BAA

Yes, draw your own conclusions. There is no other way through life. We all start and finish with nothing but our ability to make our own choices.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Notice what Clay's saying and what he's not saying?

 

He's saying there is evidence for the supernatural, but this evidence is exempt from objective, scientific investigation.

 

Q.

So what other, objective method of investigation can be used to investigate it?

 

A.

Clay's so far failed to provide one..

.

.

.

 

Please draw your own conclusions.

 

BAA

 

He is probably not able to provide an answer as to another objective means of investigating the supernatural. If the supernatural exists, you would need to rely on personal experience with a spiritual entity and could never objectively prove to others that it is real. If there are ghosts and demons, I doubt most of them care about the living being able to prove their existence so likely they would never be around when people tried to scientifically investigate their existence.

 

However, I would think that if his god existed, as an all powerful being that wanted everyone to know he was real, he would present himself in a way that he can be scientifically proven to be real instead of forcing everyone to rely on feelings, personal experience, and hearsay. If his god wanted everyone to know that the supernatural was real, he would force ghosts and demons into a situation in which they must present themselves in such a way that they can be proven as real, scientifically. If OC's god does not do these things, then he must either not be real or not really have any interest in letting everyone know that he is real or that the supernatural is real in an objective and scientific way.

 

It always comes around to what "we think" or how "we would do things". He is the Creator of the universe He is the Great I am. Human arrogance is limitless.

 

So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" (Joh 6:67)

 

[OrdinaryClay]

I'd really like to know how one can assess an event to determine whether it's in fact an instance of revelation, or even just of the supernatural.  I too put this question to OC and just got a snarky dance around the subject.  

 

Bhim, did you ever see my question when I put the same to you a while back?  I'm sorry if you gave your view and I missed it.

I've told you how, but you choose not to believe. Believing in the supernatural would shatter many peoples brittle belief systems.

 

The supernatural is observable but not repeatable. If something is observable then you can obtain evidence. How much more simple can it be. If it is not repeatable then it cannot by definition be subject to empirical science.

[OrdinaryClay]

I guess one could deny the distinction between natural and supernatural.

One can deny anything. LOL