Genuine Love

[Guest end3]

 

Morons.

I sorry I don't meet your intellectual standards. 

 

How about this: By God, you're right! The Bible mentions love so the book must be true!

 

Do I sound any smarter now?

 

Back on topic, love doesn't require sacrifice but sacrifice, if required, will demonstrate that love to others. I don't know why it's important for others to know how much you love someone, but there it is.

 

Don't be sorry, just try harder...it would make me feel loved. Realistically, if the Bible demonstrates reality with certainty, then I would think it true to some confidence level. You take Rank's talking donkey statement......was I calling him a jackass or a Democrat?

With this, I find it tragic that people shut their minds to at least being OPEN to these struggles in understanding.

 

Goes right back to the hate your family verses.....you all imply that I don't get the meaning but obviously you do....and yours is the truth. It's rather two faced.

 

And how about your "back to topic sentence". Again, adequately described by faith without works.

 

You people don't even offer a good challenge today. Someone say something that sets you apart from the moronification evolving here.

 

Moronification coined by GW, our esteemed gov and two time president from the great state of TX.

[Guest end3]

Don't Hindus have that love within their family?

Don't Muslims? D

on't Mormons?

Doesn't every religion?

Don't agnostics?

Don't atheists?

 

If you answer "no" to any of the above questions you are sadly mistaken and are living a lie. bill

What in the world Bill does this have to do with what I am discussing?

[florduh]

I find it tragic that people shut their minds to at least being OPEN to these struggles in understanding.

 

Some have been there, done that, and concluded it's settled. Keeping an open mind is fine, but some things do get settled and we move on and stop wasting time considering the "what ifs."

[Guest end3]

 

I find it tragic that people shut their minds to at least being OPEN to these struggles in understanding.

Some have been there, done that, and concluded it's settled. Keeping an open mind is fine, but some things do get settled and we move on and stop wasting time considering the "what ifs."

 

I don't think so, you just change the language offered....imo of course

[florduh]

Oh yeah? Well, if you disagree with me, then YOU don't have an open mind! So there!!!

[mymistake]

 

Realistically, if the Bible demonstrates reality with certainty, then I would think it true to some confidence level. 

 

 

 

If the Bible had four wheels then it would be a wagon.  Unfortunately it doesn't have for wheels and it doesn't demonstrate reality at all, let alone with any certainty.  Thus it doesn't do any good to wish that the Bible was something other than what it is.

 

 

 

With this, I find it tragic that people shut their minds to at least being OPEN to these struggles in understanding.

 

Goes right back to the hate your family verses.....you all imply that I don't get the meaning but obviously you do....and yours is the truth. It's rather two faced.

 

We have experienced something that you haven't.  It's actually the other way around.  It takes a closed mind to protect Christianity and an open mind to see the flaws.

 

As for quantifying love - it's an abstract idea.  

[Galien]

If the bible is so awesome, why are so many christians lacking love? One of the reasons I left the church was due to its appalling lack of any understanding whatsoever of love. I got the impression from reading the bible when I was a kid that love was the most important part of christianity. Paul fucked that up, bringing his hardass pharisee like interpretation of what it was all about. 

 

I have found in people the more ego they have, the less love for others they have. If you are not prepared to let go of your ego yo will never understand what love means. There are many christians I know who treat their family like shit, because their ego and getting their own way is more important to them than anything else. They won't even sacrifice their own ego for their family.

 

All that soldiers coming home crap doesn't fly with me. Just more propaganda. They missed each other, like all families do when they are separated. Nothing special about them.

 

Ask yourself End, what are YOU prepared to sacrifice? 

[RipVanWinkle]

end3: re: your post 15, above: "Grace moves us past our family turning, exiling 'eternal damnation'

immature love."

 

Help me out. What does this mean?

 

I dated a girl named Grace once,but I don't think it was real love.

 

bill

[RankStranger]

 

Just thinking Rank you are the perfect example of a talking donkey....

 

 

Ba-dum-ching!

 

Thanks End.  My point is that there's plenty of demonstrably false and outright stupid shit in the bible.  I don't see why it should be considered an authoritative source on much of anything.  Why should I give a shit what a bad translation of some ignorant goat-herders has to say about love?  Or anything else for that matter?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Some of the most genuine displays of love I have witnessed in my life are those reunions of soldiers and their families.  Seemingly both have sacrificed for each other.  Seems like a hightened example of what is expressed in the Bible.

 

Comparing the love between soldiers reunited with their families and the love that Yahweh of the Bible, supposedly, has for humans. If a soldier returned from war and demanded their children and spouse to worship them or else they would send them to the Middle East to be tormented, how could you really consider that love? That would be the kind of "love" that Yahweh of the Bible has for humans. To him, regardless of whether or not he is real or a fictional character, Yahweh in the Bible views humans as nothing more than his slaves, who must do everything he wants them to do.

 

Desiring for them to need him, he first sets humans up to fail in the beginning so that he would need to save them, but fails to save everyone, in fact, fails to save most of them. Isn't that kind of like a doctor poisoning his patients, just so he can cure them and look like a hero, only to save 50% or less of the patients he poisons? It seems that way to me.

 

The only thing Yahweh sacrifices is some god man that is his son because it is the only way that he can save humans from the poison of sin, which he purposefully sets them up to be infected by. This apparently fails, though, because now the few who do not trust him because they are either not convinced he is real or are convinced he is a monster are going to remain poisoned and soon will be shoved into a furnace for not trusting him and receiving the cure to the poison he infected them with.

 

I say this again, the comparison between the love a soldier coming home feels for their family and the love of Yahweh is completely bogus.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Just thinking Rank you are the perfect example of a talking donkey....

 

 

Ba-dum-ching!

 

Thanks End.  My point is that there's plenty of demonstrably false and outright stupid shit in the bible.  I don't see why it should be considered an authoritative source on much of anything.  Why should I give a shit what a bad translation of some ignorant goat-herders has to say about love?  Or anything else for that matter?

 

 

 

Maybe you is not smart enough to see that it demonstrably true... If you were, you wouldn't have left your self wide open for the donkey joke.  You get my drift...or probably you don't.

[Guest end3]

end3: re: your post 15, above: "Grace moves us past our family turning, exiling 'eternal damnation'

immature love."

 

Help me out. What does this mean?

 

I dated a girl named Grace once,but I don't think it was real love.

 

bill

Let me explain from my own personal story.  Perhaps I am misinterpreting those scriptures, but nonetheless, not sure anyone has a great hold on them. 

 

I am currently turned away from my father.  Cussed him like no other I think in this world.  He has dimentia, about to die I expect, but I can't bring myself to "follow Christ" in Grace at this point.  But here IS the point.  It was my understanding of the "message" that lead me to consider what values were/are important in the larger scheme, a path that he willingly chose not to follow.  In that, we have separated because the paths he chose lead to figurative death in most respects and effectively he has chosen figurative "eternal damnation".

 

If I were to truely follow Christ, I would choose Grace and Forgiveness over condemnation.   So in effect, I can see where "love" leads to separation, i.e. "death", but also potentially leads towards a higher evolved self through Grace if we were to maintained our faith in obedience. 

 

Long story short, I have envisioned what I might feel at his death, but at this point, it doesn't seem like enough to change my current mindset.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

Just thinking Rank you are the perfect example of a talking donkey....

 

 

Ba-dum-ching!

 

Thanks End.  My point is that there's plenty of demonstrably false and outright stupid shit in the bible.  I don't see why it should be considered an authoritative source on much of anything.  Why should I give a shit what a bad translation of some ignorant goat-herders has to say about love?  Or anything else for that matter?

 

 

 

Maybe you is not smart enough to see that it demonstrably true... If you were, you wouldn't have left your self wide open for the donkey joke.  You get my drift...or probably you don't.

 

 

I just had to quote that.  

[Guest end3]

If the bible is so awesome, why are so many christians lacking love? One of the reasons I left the church was due to its appalling lack of any understanding whatsoever of love. I got the impression from reading the bible when I was a kid that love was the most important part of christianity. Paul fucked that up, bringing his hardass pharisee like interpretation of what it was all about. 

 

I have found in people the more ego they have, the less love for others they have. If you are not prepared to let go of your ego yo will never understand what love means. There are many christians I know who treat their family like shit, because their ego and getting their own way is more important to them than anything else. They won't even sacrifice their own ego for their family.

 

All that soldiers coming home crap doesn't fly with me. Just more propaganda. They missed each other, like all families do when they are separated. Nothing special about them.

 

Ask yourself End, what are YOU prepared to sacrifice? 

Come on.....it says the people in church are the lost.  You argue with that?  Really?

 

I agree on the rest of your post, but until we walk in each other's shoes.  Not willing at this point to forgive my father due to the generational harm it is causing his grandchildren.  So with all due respect....get over it. 

[Guest end3]

Oh yeah? Well, if you disagree with me, then YOU don't have an open mind! So there!!!

At least you understand this has been nothing more than an exercise in sacrifice for you bored lion types.  Blessings sir.

[mymistake]

 

 

Let me explain from my own personal story.  Perhaps I am misinterpreting those scriptures, but nonetheless, not sure anyone has a great hold on them. 

 

I am currently turned away from my father.  Cussed him like no other I think in this world.  He has dimentia, about to die I expect, but I can't bring myself to "follow Christ" in Grace at this point.  But here IS the point.  It was my understanding of the "message" that lead me to consider what values were/are important in the larger scheme, a path that he willingly chose not to follow.  In that, we have separated because the paths he chose lead to figurative death in most respects and effectively he has chosen figurative "eternal damnation".

 

If I were to truely follow Christ, I would choose Grace and Forgiveness over condemnation.   So in effect, I can see where "love" leads to separation, i.e. "death", but also potentially leads towards a higher evolved self through Grace if we were to maintained our faith in obedience. 

 

Long story short, I have envisioned what I might feel at his death, but at this point, it doesn't seem like enough to change my current mindset.

 

 

That is a very common situation among ex-Christians.  The Bible teaches a bunch of things that are not true.  Christians try to follow them and find out that they can't (because, like I said, they are not true).

 

Christianity really messes up with forgiveness.  (Condemnation and Grace too!)  Real forgiveness is nothing like what is found in the Bible.  I personally found that Christianity was preventing me from forgiving people.  I'm sorry to hear about your dad but if he is having bad dementia then it might not matter to him if you forgive him.  

[mymistake]

 

 Not willing at this point to forgive my father due to the generational harm it is causing his grandchildren.  

 

 

Would you like for us to help you forgive your father?

[Galien]

Seventy times seven mate, learn to read. I'm assuming it isn't a request. Either be a christian or don't but don't make excuses.

[Galien]

 

If the bible is so awesome, why are so many christians lacking love? One of the reasons I left the church was due to its appalling lack of any understanding whatsoever of love. I got the impression from reading the bible when I was a kid that love was the most important part of christianity. Paul fucked that up, bringing his hardass pharisee like interpretation of what it was all about. 

 

I have found in people the more ego they have, the less love for others they have. If you are not prepared to let go of your ego yo will never understand what love means. There are many christians I know who treat their family like shit, because their ego and getting their own way is more important to them than anything else. They won't even sacrifice their own ego for their family.

 

All that soldiers coming home crap doesn't fly with me. Just more propaganda. They missed each other, like all families do when they are separated. Nothing special about them.

 

Ask yourself End, what are YOU prepared to sacrifice? 

Come on.....it says the people in church are the lost.  You argue with that?  Really?

 

I agree on the rest of your post, but until we walk in each other's shoes.  Not willing at this point to forgive my father due to the generational harm it is causing his grandchildren.  So with all due respect....get over it. 

 

 

Oh, I'm over it end, it is people like you who turned me away from the church. You are a hardhearted and unrelenting person. That is your choice. Nothing supernatural going on there.

[Guest end3]

 

 

If the bible is so awesome, why are so many christians lacking love? One of the reasons I left the church was due to its appalling lack of any understanding whatsoever of love. I got the impression from reading the bible when I was a kid that love was the most important part of christianity. Paul fucked that up, bringing his hardass pharisee like interpretation of what it was all about. 

 

I have found in people the more ego they have, the less love for others they have. If you are not prepared to let go of your ego yo will never understand what love means. There are many christians I know who treat their family like shit, because their ego and getting their own way is more important to them than anything else. They won't even sacrifice their own ego for their family.

 

All that soldiers coming home crap doesn't fly with me. Just more propaganda. They missed each other, like all families do when they are separated. Nothing special about them.

 

Ask yourself End, what are YOU prepared to sacrifice?

Come on.....it says the people in church are the lost.  You argue with that?  Really?

 

I agree on the rest of your post, but until we walk in each other's shoes.  Not willing at this point to forgive my father due to the generational harm it is causing his grandchildren.  So with all due respect....get over it.

 

 

Oh, I'm over it end, it is people like you who turned me away from the church. You are a hardhearted and unrelenting person. That is your choice. Nothing supernatural going on there.

 

Hence the need for faith

[wanderinstar]

 

Some of the most genuine displays of love I have witnessed in my life are those reunions of soldiers and their families.  Seemingly both have sacrificed for each other.  Seems like a hightened example of what is expressed in the Bible. 

 

Don't bother, it can all be explained away logically,...evolution, blah blah.

 

For many years I genuinely believed god loved me and the most clear demonstration of that was through him sending his son Jesus. This was the truth I lived and breathed daily, I was no 'sunday' christian. Through those years I had experienced many great trials and explained them as god testing me, maturing me, it could of been worse etc. About five years ago my physical heath crashed, I lost my career due to this, but I remained very strong in faith. As I had many questions I spent many hours reading the bible to find my answers; god loved me and had a plan for my life, or so I thought. In the following years my mental health collapsed (PTSD/Depression) and my marriage became a prison, still I was confident god loved me and had a good plan for my life. Things deteriorated. Several times I begged god to help me not kill myself, to give me strength, to comfort me; I made five attempts on my life and came very close to dying on one. God never showed up, never helped me and the christians he sent either ran away when I became unwell or made things worse for me (a few close friends excluded). I never wanted to lose my faith, I was confident I would take a bullet before denying christ but once I saw the historical and biblical evidence, combined with my experience, I realised the christian god never did exist, and if by chance he did exist he is a complete asshole. 

 

End3, you keep coming back here to post but continuously ignore the wealth of evidence provided here that crushes most arguments for the christian god. My simple question is, 'Where was your god, MY god, when i cried to him for years but only received worsening conditions an,d no comfort in return; when I was pure in heart in my prayers and sincere in faith, and gave generously even beyond my ability???'

 

And if you give me the foot prints reply, I would like to know how is it loving to just watch me suffer for so long, needlessly. No good has come out of the last five years, except perhaps to be free from the confines of religion. god did not carry me in my darkest hour. Non christian nurses and doctors carried me and medical science though medication and professional psychotherapy is healing me where no christian ministry could (oh, and I tried all christian ministry/support before finally having a breakdown).

 

 

Still waiting on a response End! Soldiers and their families I can at least see, and the few I know are very loving people (not all Christians though) but the christian god is demonstrably unloving in both scripture and life experience, as I detailed above. I have written a heartfelt response to you, please give me the respect of a reply...

[Galien]

 

Hence the need for faith

 

 

Faith my ass. It is honesty that is needed and the willingness of christians to accept they are being douchebags and STOP. But we both know that rarely happens. Its all to easy to blame everyone else for our shortcomings. We make our own messes, we need to get ourselves out. Sitting around waiting for some pie in the sky bullshit rubbish to sort it out is ridiculous.

 

You could always try growing up.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

If the bible is so awesome, why are so many christians lacking love? One of the reasons I left the church was due to its appalling lack of any understanding whatsoever of love. I got the impression from reading the bible when I was a kid that love was the most important part of christianity. Paul fucked that up, bringing his hardass pharisee like interpretation of what it was all about. 

 

I have found in people the more ego they have, the less love for others they have. If you are not prepared to let go of your ego yo will never understand what love means. There are many christians I know who treat their family like shit, because their ego and getting their own way is more important to them than anything else. They won't even sacrifice their own ego for their family.

 

All that soldiers coming home crap doesn't fly with me. Just more propaganda. They missed each other, like all families do when they are separated. Nothing special about them.

 

Ask yourself End, what are YOU prepared to sacrifice?

Come on.....it says the people in church are the lost.  You argue with that?  Really?

 

I agree on the rest of your post, but until we walk in each other's shoes.  Not willing at this point to forgive my father due to the generational harm it is causing his grandchildren.  So with all due respect....get over it.

 

 

Oh, I'm over it end, it is people like you who turned me away from the church. You are a hardhearted and unrelenting person. That is your choice. Nothing supernatural going on there.

 

Hence the need for faith

 

 

 

 

And we all know faith fixes everyone so well! Lol, not really.

 

It's funny how giving up faith helped me to be a better person than I was with faith. I assure you, it's extremely disappointing when you experience psychological problems and find yourself afraid you're going to turn into a psychopathic killer and hope that somehow faith in a god would fix all of your problems and make you a wonderful person, only for it to do the exact opposite.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Hence the need for faith

 

 

Faith my ass. It is honesty that is needed and the willingness of christians to accept they are being douchebags and STOP. But we both know that rarely happens. Its all to easy to blame everyone else for our shortcomings. We make our own messes, we need to get ourselves out. Sitting around waiting for some pie in the sky bullshit rubbish to sort it out is ridiculous.

 

You could always try growing up.

 

 

What do I say Gal.  If it weren't a process we would all flip a switch and be done.  It's a process, a race.  I don't actively search out being a jackass, but it shows on occasion.  So whine, whatever, you know me better than this and I don't appreciate you going near nuclear given our history.  I won't respond to your mean responses as I like you better than to do that.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Some of the most genuine displays of love I have witnessed in my life are those reunions of soldiers and their families.  Seemingly both have sacrificed for each other.  Seems like a hightened example of what is expressed in the Bible. 

 

Don't bother, it can all be explained away logically,...evolution, blah blah.

 

For many years I genuinely believed god loved me and the most clear demonstration of that was through him sending his son Jesus. This was the truth I lived and breathed daily, I was no 'sunday' christian. Through those years I had experienced many great trials and explained them as god testing me, maturing me, it could of been worse etc. About five years ago my physical heath crashed, I lost my career due to this, but I remained very strong in faith. As I had many questions I spent many hours reading the bible to find my answers; god loved me and had a plan for my life, or so I thought. In the following years my mental health collapsed (PTSD/Depression) and my marriage became a prison, still I was confident god loved me and had a good plan for my life. Things deteriorated. Several times I begged god to help me not kill myself, to give me strength, to comfort me; I made five attempts on my life and came very close to dying on one. God never showed up, never helped me and the christians he sent either ran away when I became unwell or made things worse for me (a few close friends excluded). I never wanted to lose my faith, I was confident I would take a bullet before denying christ but once I saw the historical and biblical evidence, combined with my experience, I realised the christian god never did exist, and if by chance he did exist he is a complete asshole. 

 

End3, you keep coming back here to post but continuously ignore the wealth of evidence provided here that crushes most arguments for the christian god. My simple question is, 'Where was your god, MY god, when i cried to him for years but only received worsening conditions an,d no comfort in return; when I was pure in heart in my prayers and sincere in faith, and gave generously even beyond my ability???'

 

And if you give me the foot prints reply, I would like to know how is it loving to just watch me suffer for so long, needlessly. No good has come out of the last five years, except perhaps to be free from the confines of religion. god did not carry me in my darkest hour. Non christian nurses and doctors carried me and medical science though medication and professional psychotherapy is healing me where no christian ministry could (oh, and I tried all christian ministry/support before finally having a breakdown).

 

 

Still waiting on a response End! Soldiers and their families I can at least see, and the few I know are very loving people (not all Christians though) but the christian god is demonstrably unloving in both scripture and life experience, as I detailed above. I have written a heartfelt response to you, please give me the respect of a reply...

 

I can at least feel as though I have walked some steps in those shoes....not to the extent you have, but some.  I'm not going to give you a pat answer, though I could.  Out of 125 members in our congregation, after my separation from my wife and children, I had roughly 3 members come and find me.  Heck, I was a deacon and even gave children's sermons on a regular basis.   What holds me to faith in Christ are exactly those instances as I have described.....children and soldier fathers reuniting.....those glimpes of pure joy and love that I know are real but are not constant.  I believe because I can see glimpses of them, that it is possible that they can be permanent as described as "Heaven".  I also subscribe to the notion that "Heaven" might be those glimpses......kind of like in the movie Field of Dreams.   "Is this Heaven, no it's Iowa".

 

I guess I was sheltered by my good fortune that I had never experienced pain like I have recently nor tried to understand why this could happen even with the best of intentions.  I think I am somewhat like you only a few year behind. 

 

I don't know the answer but wouldn't wish your nor my situation on anyone and holding faithfully as you did that I will understand why someday.  That is all I have ma'am.