Genuine Love

[RipVanWinkle]

Can't you understand that your characterization of the earth, the stars, the planets, etc. as evidence of creation is merely an opinion with no efficacy? They are evidence of their own existence, not the cause of their existence. 

 

The earth is not evidence that it was created  by a supernatural entity. Indeed, it is not evidence of

anything until you define the issue. Is it evidence that it was created by a divine being? No!! It was created by the Big Bang. The point is that the existence of matter and energy do not prove why they exist.

 

What if the Big Bang theory is false? Then scientists keep looking. They don't assume a divine being did it.  Even if they assume that, they could not and would not assume that it was the biblical god who created it. There would have to be evidence of that. There is none. The creation story in Genesis is utterly ridiculous. It explains nothing anymore than if you and I were said to exclaim "Let there be Light" and there would be light. You have to explain how god's voice and command could possibly cause light to come into existence out of nothing. Oh, yes, because the bible said so. Yeah, it also says that the water on earth was divided and one part was placed above the heaven and the stars, billions of light years away. That's how god makes it rain. Right.

 

You get nowhere with your arguments until you can first show that the universe was created by a supernatural being and that the god of the bible was the supernatural being who created it, and

then, how that was accomplished in a non-mythical, plausible way..Good luck.  bill

[Guest end3]

Can't you understand that your characterization of the earth, the stars, the planets, etc. as evidence of creation is merely an opinion with no efficacy? They are evidence of their own existence, not the cause of their existence. 

 

The earth is not evidence that it was created  by a supernatural entity. Indeed, it is not evidence of

anything until you define the issue. Is it evidence that it was created by a divine being? No!! It was created by the Big Bang. The point is that the existence of matter and energy do not prove why they exist.

 

What if the Big Bang theory is false? Then scientists keep looking. They don't assume a divine being did it.  Even if they assume that, they could not and would not assume that it was the biblical god who created it. There would have to be evidence of that. There is none. The creation story in Genesis is utterly ridiculous. It explains nothing anymore than if you and I were said to exclaim "Let there be Light" and there would be light. You have to explain how god's voice and command could possibly cause light to come into existence out of nothing. Oh, yes, because the bible said so. Yeah, it also says that the water on earth was divided and one part was placed above the heaven and the stars, billions of light years away. That's how god makes it rain. Right.

 

You get nowhere with your arguments until you can first show that the universe was created by a supernatural being and that the god of the bible was the supernatural being who created it, and

then, how that was accomplished in a non-mythical, plausible way..Good luck.  bill

Why Bill do you assume that I don't give credence to the science?  The fact is, REGARDLESS SIR of the Big Bang, etc., none of us know or don't know of a Cause behind such.  What I am trying to describe is how what we see with regard to some historically noted Cause correllates to the notation.  And the problem, is, none of you want to even go there.  "here's correlation".  No, END3, we are looking over here.  There can't be correlation because we are looking over here.  And besides END3, nothing points to your creator other than that historically, yet insightful book.

 

By your standards, we have no reason to believe man exists other than what I see him build with our eyes.

 

And to make the assumption Bill, that there is nothing "outside" our universe is lacking.  Crap, didn't I read the other day that  Voyager is even running into things we didn't expect.  Imagine that Bill.  Yet somehow science can say God is not there.  Really?

 

And we haven't even gotten to my example yet.

[Guest end3]

 

No, if you look at Earth objectively, I am proposing that we see similarities to Spiritual purpose.

 

And the kicker.  When I try to describe these to people here, there are near the complete sum of you that don't know the field to which I describe similarities. 

 

 

There might not be Spiritual purpose.  If it exists then there is no way to measure it.  If you look at Earth and see similarity to Spiritual purpose then you are being the opposite of objective.  You are reading your faith into everything; using faith as a filter.  The reason most people don't have your personal take on religion is that they don't have your brain.  Religion is as personalized as a fingerprint as each person adds or ignores whatever bit or private interpretation makes sense to them.

 

However I was right about our universe having no observable purpose.  Millions of people have wondered why we are here and after pondering it for perhaps years they usually come up with their very own abstract answer which might have been made up.

 

No way to measure it yet MM.  Calgone, take me away.

 

I am truly frustrated with y'all.

[Guest end3]

Can't you understand that your characterization of the earth, the stars, the planets, etc. as evidence of creation is merely an opinion with no efficacy? They are evidence of their own existence, not the cause of their existence. 

 

The earth is not evidence that it was created  by a supernatural entity. Indeed, it is not evidence of

anything until you define the issue. Is it evidence that it was created by a divine being? No!! It was created by the Big Bang. The point is that the existence of matter and energy do not prove why they exist.

 

What if the Big Bang theory is false? Then scientists keep looking. They don't assume a divine being did it.  Even if they assume that, they could not and would not assume that it was the biblical god who created it. There would have to be evidence of that. There is none. The creation story in Genesis is utterly ridiculous. It explains nothing anymore than if you and I were said to exclaim "Let there be Light" and there would be light. You have to explain how god's voice and command could possibly cause light to come into existence out of nothing. Oh, yes, because the bible said so. Yeah, it also says that the water on earth was divided and one part was placed above the heaven and the stars, billions of light years away. That's how god makes it rain. Right.

 

You get nowhere with your arguments until you can first show that the universe was created by a supernatural being and that the god of the bible was the supernatural being who created it, and

then, how that was accomplished in a non-mythical, plausible way..Good luck.  bill

Let me say this bill.  Regardless of specific characterization, it's all evidence.  And if you were really into science, or truly looking for the truth, you would use ALL of the evidence. 

[wanderinstar]

End, this thread is about examples of genuine love in humanity that reflects the love of a supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent perfect god. Now you are frustrated that we cannot seem to see, feel, hear, sense, scientifically deduce said god. Considering the lack of evidence, and very different, and often conflicting, subjective experiences of this god, is it not reasonable for many people to conclude this particular god at least, does not exists? If we were discussing a sadistic, limited, unloving, capricious semi-powerful god then perhaps we could argue he/she/it enjoys playing hide-and-seek, confusing their followers and above all creating an existence that is full of suffering, blaming it on the subjects, proclaiming to be the loving hero by 'rescuing' them and threatening insubordinance with an eternity in hell; well then we could conclude that that particular god is logically possible, but still no evidence.

 

My point is that from a philosophical POV the loving god you are trying so desperately to prove exists simply cannot. I am not a philosopher so I know there is a much better way to argue this point, but I hope you can grasp my general gist. The christian answer of 'Oh, but god did it this way so we could all have free will' or 'The problem of sin' are utterly illogical. This god you are defending is apparently all-knowing, all-powerful and always present, and loving to boot, but has created this awful mess as the stage for his grand theatre in which we are the puppets. Sounds more like a Narcissist than a lover of people. You can use all the science on the universe you like (and sure science has not disproven the existence of some impersonal, supernatural force behind it all) but it is all is vain as the basic character of the christian god (the warm fuzzy one people like to evangelise, not the horrible one depicted in the bible..that's another discussion) does not line up with the reality we live in. When you are trying to prove a personal god you need to be able to line up that gods supposed character with the relationships it has with its creation, all of the people not just the ones who have positive or theologically explainable negative experiences with this god but the ones who sincerely gave all their life to this relationship only to be screwed over, or could never experience him, or the ones who believe in other gods or no god at all. Seriously, if any personal god does exist the evidence demonstrates that he/she is a complete bastard. 

[mymistake]

 

 

The fact is, REGARDLESS SIR of the Big Bang, etc., none of us know or don't know of a Cause behind such.  What I am trying to describe is how what we see with regard to some historically noted Cause correllates to the notation.  And the problem, is, none of you want to even go there.  "here's correlation".  No, END3, we are looking over here.  There can't be correlation because we are looking over here.  And besides END3, nothing points to your creator other than that historically, yet insightful book.

 

By your standards, we have no reason to believe man exists other than what I see him build with our eyes.

 

 

 

I don't find the Bible to be insightful and it is a known fact that the Bible is not historical.  I would be happy to look at any correlation you can offer.  When we ask you to do so you do not.  Don't blame us for what you do not do.  Show me this correlation.  But don't show me something real added to something you imagine.  That isn't correlation.

 

 

Yet somehow science can say God is not there.  Really?

 

When did science say that?  I've never seen it happen.  Show me where science said that.

[JamesG]

I think I understand why you are frustrated End you Assume there is a god we Assume nothing

 

when we witness one sacrifice his life/relationships out of some duty to country etc. this is what happens

 

end3 sees this as one emulating the sacrifice of god out of love for his family

 

we see this as a sacrifice of duty to a choice he/she made

 

we both see the sacrifice you just add god onto it

 

you are getting frustrated  we don't see your evidence of god in this sacrifice. what you need to do is find an example where ONLY god could be involved other wise you are just putting sugar on the icing.

[Guest end3]

End, this thread is about examples of genuine love in humanity that reflects the love of a supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent perfect god. Now you are frustrated that we cannot seem to see, feel, hear, sense, scientifically deduce said god. Considering the lack of evidence, and very different, and often conflicting, subjective experiences of this god, is it not reasonable for many people to conclude this particular god at least, does not exists? If we were discussing a sadistic, limited, unloving, capricious semi-powerful god then perhaps we could argue he/she/it enjoys playing hide-and-seek, confusing their followers and above all creating an existence that is full of suffering, blaming it on the subjects, proclaiming to be the loving hero by 'rescuing' them and threatening insubordinance with an eternity in hell; well then we could conclude that that particular god is logically possible, but still no evidence.

 

My point is that from a philosophical POV the loving god you are trying so desperately to prove exists simply cannot. I am not a philosopher so I know there is a much better way to argue this point, but I hope you can grasp my general gist. The christian answer of 'Oh, but god did it this way so we could all have free will' or 'The problem of sin' are utterly illogical. This god you are defending is apparently all-knowing, all-powerful and always present, and loving to boot, but has created this awful mess as the stage for his grand theatre in which we are the puppets. Sounds more like a Narcissist than a lover of people. You can use all the science on the universe you like (and sure science has not disproven the existence of some impersonal, supernatural force behind it all) but it is all is vain as the basic character of the christian god (the warm fuzzy one people like to evangelise, not the horrible one depicted in the bible..that's another discussion) does not line up with the reality we live in. When you are trying to prove a personal god you need to be able to line up that gods supposed character with the relationships it has with its creation, all of the people not just the ones who have positive or theologically explainable negative experiences with this god but the ones who sincerely gave all their life to this relationship only to be screwed over, or could never experience him, or the ones who believe in other gods or no god at all. Seriously, if any personal god does exist the evidence demonstrates that he/she is a complete bastard. 

Aside from all the evidence, the big rub with God is outside of this discussion, right?

 

Why the seemingly dastardly mechanism that leads to some unknown purpose. 

[wanderinstar]

Either you are not making yourself clear, or I am having a dumb day; please explain your comments again. thanks

[Guest end3]

I think I understand why you are frustrated End you Assume there is a god we Assume nothing

 

when we witness one sacrifice his life/relationships out of some duty to country etc. this is what happens

 

end3 sees this as one emulating the sacrifice of god out of love for his family

 

we see this as a sacrifice of duty to a choice he/she made

 

we both see the sacrifice you just add god onto it

 

you are getting frustrated  we don't see your evidence of god in this sacrifice. what you need to do is find an example where ONLY god could be involved other wise you are just putting sugar on the icing.

So suffice it to say that we are describing the Christian version here.  Let's talk about Spiritual quantification vs. objective quantification.  Or does this even offer any sort of proof that you would consider?

[Guest end3]

Either you are not making yourself clear, or I am having a dumb day; please explain your comments again. thanks

I'm drinking WS.  Missing my children terribly during this divorce process.  Your post is full of many different discussions.  Basically I was understanding that you are unhappy with the total picture as greater evidence for no god than my one particular example for God.  If I were not impared atm, perhaps I could mention a few of the things you mentioned from my perspective....not that that would help any.  But I get your point. 

[wanderinstar]

 

Either you are not making yourself clear, or I am having a dumb day; please explain your comments again. thanks

I'm drinking WS.  Missing my children terribly during this divorce process.  Your post is full of many different discussions.  Basically I was understanding that you are unhappy with the total picture as greater evidence for no god than my one particular example for God.  If I were not impared atm, perhaps I could mention a few of the things you mentioned from my perspective....not that that would help any.  But I get your point. 

 

 

Sorry you are hurting End. Divorce is agonising, especially when children are involved. I would say don't drink alone too often but it would be hypocritical as I have certainly done my fair share since my separation/divorce begun. However, I will say watch out for depression as it keeps good company with alcohol/substance abuse. 

 

All I was really saying in my post above was that this threat could go on for thousands of pages as there is so much unknown about the universe, and thus could be ascribed as possible evidence for a deity. Instead of discussing that grand topic I wanted to bring you back to the particular deity you are claiming evidence for (the christian god) as it really is possible to demonstrate fairly soundly that this god cannot exist (as many posts on this site provide good argument for).

 

When faced with such logic and reason most christians pull back to the possible evidence of a general creator god to avoid facing the damning evidence against their own specific god. At least in my experience this is what often occurs. I was just wanting to re-connect you with the specific god you are trying to demonstrate exists, and that the sacrifice of soldiers and their families emulates. 

[mymistake]

End, I'm sorry to hear that your personal crisis is giving you so much pain.  That just sucks and there is no way around it.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

Could we assume that we could look at creation as assume there was a creator? 

 

 

Of course you can assume.  That is what faith is.  You assume without evidence.

 

As for being an actual creator . . . our planet, our star, our galaxy were created by giant exploding stars and the resulting singularities.  Right now you are in orbit around a super massive back hole.  It determines where you will go in the big picture.  Gravity is the all reaching force that controls our universe.

 

No, no, no,  in my mind you already jumped over my point.  Why should we be able to dismiss a creator if we have creation as evidence?

 

Edit:  Creation is the evidence.

 

 

I created the whole universe just last night and I am eternal. Every memory you have inside of your brain of your past life was planted in there just last night. I purposefully put your life into a situation, just last night, so that the situation and your memories were accurately connected together. Do you believe me End3? Everything that exists is creation and that is evidence that I created it all last night and that I am eternal. Your concept of god is also wrong, because I say it is, because I created everything last night.

 

If everything I just said was something that I actually believed and was trying to convince you to believe, you would likely think that I was a bit crazy, right End3? I know if someone told me they were eternal and created everything last night, on the internet, I would likely not believe them and might even think they were a bit crazy. They can't just claim that the things that exist are creation, thus evidence that they created everything last night. It requires a lot of assumptions to assume any of what you say about existence and a god are true. First, you would need to assume that the universe was completely created by some being that is intelligent. That is a claim that can't be proven or disproven because it is a claim to know something that no one could ever know without being omniscient. Before anyone can know for certain that everything was created by an intelligent being, saying that everything that exists is creation is just another assumption.

[Guest end3]

End, I'm sorry to hear that your personal crisis is giving you so much pain.  That just sucks and there is no way around it.

Thanks MM. sincerely. 

[Guest end3]

 

I think I understand why you are frustrated End you Assume there is a god we Assume nothing

 

when we witness one sacrifice his life/relationships out of some duty to country etc. this is what happens

 

end3 sees this as one emulating the sacrifice of god out of love for his family

 

we see this as a sacrifice of duty to a choice he/she made

 

we both see the sacrifice you just add god onto it

 

you are getting frustrated  we don't see your evidence of god in this sacrifice. what you need to do is find an example where ONLY god could be involved other wise you are just putting sugar on the icing.

So suffice it to say that we are describing the Christian version here.  Let's talk about Spiritual quantification vs. objective quantification.  Or does this even offer any sort of proof that you would consider?

 

Anyone want to get in the mud with this one?

[mymistake]

 

Anyone want to get in the mud with this one?

 

 

 

Well it's tough because you want to talk about your personal take on religion as if it's the truth when that is no better then the religion of everybody else on the planet.  Christians tend to get pissed off if other religions are treated as being legit or if fake religions are used in examples (such as invisible pink unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters).

 

When solders return home to their wife and kids it reenacts something that has been part of human past for at least tens of thousands of years.  Human men went off to hunt and left the tribe behind.  Then they returned and there was a reunion.  It's part of human evolution.  It's our nature.  We love and empathize with our own family because we rely on our family to survive.  That is where human love comes from.  Whatever hominids in the distant past couldn't do love went extinct because they were at some disadvantage.

[RipVanWinkle]

End: I am truly not being coy with you. For me,  at least, your messages are far too abstract. I admit, I'm not good with abstract.  So please give me specific examples in real life to demonstrate your point(s). You said you haven't gotten to your examples yet. Please get to them.

 

You say creation is evidence of a creator. If you call all matter and energy "creation" you have already come to a conclusion. You can't have a creation without a creator. So the words you used are not neutral. Instead, let's start with "matter" and "energy". Now are you saying that because matter and energy exist, there is a god who created them? And that "god" is the biblical god?

                                                                                              bill

[JamesG]

Spiritual quantification vs. objective quantification? I would love to jump in the mud but I have no idea what you are describing could you please elaborate for me?

[Guest end3]

I am talking about analytical chemistry.  Almost every methodology I know has a parallel to man's interaction with God in the Bible.  I've talked about this before, but it's so straightforward it is very hard for me to ignore.  So If you are not already familiar with internal and external standards, then a review would be helpful to see the comparison.  What I am trying to get to is the correlation between modern analytical methods vs. the measure of a man....Spiritual measurement. 

[mymistake]

I am talking about analytical chemistry.  Almost every methodology I know has a parallel to man's interaction with God in the Bible.  I've talked about this before, but it's so straightforward it is very hard for me to ignore.  So If you are not already familiar with internal and external standards, then a review would be helpful to see the comparison.  What I am trying to get to is the correlation between modern analytical methods vs. the measure of a man....Spiritual measurement. 

 

I'm going to give you a pass because I know you are having a hard life right now.  Can't you see how this is asking for it?  You are saying real things have a parallel with the imaginary.  If I say more it will hurt.  End, do you think on some level you want to deconvert?  Or perhaps you are looking for a punching bag for your frustrations?  Well whatever it is, I'm not going to fight with you about this.

[Guest end3]

 

I am talking about analytical chemistry.  Almost every methodology I know has a parallel to man's interaction with God in the Bible.  I've talked about this before, but it's so straightforward it is very hard for me to ignore.  So If you are not already familiar with internal and external standards, then a review would be helpful to see the comparison.  What I am trying to get to is the correlation between modern analytical methods vs. the measure of a man....Spiritual measurement. 

 

I'm going to give you a pass because I know you are having a hard life right now.  Can't you see how this is asking for it?  You are saying real things have a parallel with the imaginary.  If I say more it will hurt.  End, do you think on some level you want to deconvert?  Or perhaps you are looking for a punching bag for your frustrations?  Well whatever it is, I'm not going to fight with you about this.

 

It's not going to bother me MM.   Regardless of whether we deem the Bible stories imaginary or not, the relationships are there.  Why are they there?

[Galien]

 

 

I am talking about analytical chemistry.  Almost every methodology I know has a parallel to man's interaction with God in the Bible.  I've talked about this before, but it's so straightforward it is very hard for me to ignore.  So If you are not already familiar with internal and external standards, then a review would be helpful to see the comparison.  What I am trying to get to is the correlation between modern analytical methods vs. the measure of a man....Spiritual measurement. 

 

I'm going to give you a pass because I know you are having a hard life right now.  Can't you see how this is asking for it?  You are saying real things have a parallel with the imaginary.  If I say more it will hurt.  End, do you think on some level you want to deconvert?  Or perhaps you are looking for a punching bag for your frustrations?  Well whatever it is, I'm not going to fight with you about this.

 

It's not going to bother me MM.   Regardless of whether we deem the Bible stories imaginary or not, the relationships are there.  Why are they there?

 

 

The relationships in the bible are not important. The ones in your life are. Fix them. If you cant all this knowledge of the bible ain't worth jack shit, and I think deep inside you, you are very aware of that. Drinking can cover the pain that knowledge causes you but it wont fix the problem. That is the issue with christianity end, too much pie in the sky bullshit. Take action to fix the mess you have made of your own life but don't sit around getting smashed and waiting for god to do it.

 

Pontificate all you like on the bible and sacrifice ans whatever, but the truth of life is all we have is ourselves. If all those years of being a christian have not taught you humility, kindness, grace and forgiveness, give it up.

 

I hate that you are feeling so shit, but the only thing that will change that is honesty. As I said to someone else today on a different forum, if knowledge does not lead to wisdom, and wisdom to action, the knowledge is pointless. Men tend to sit around arguing bullshit. It is not productive and leads to no solutions. Another gem from the other forum from me to you...make your ego your bitch, or you will forever be its bitch.

[Bhim]

Bhim holds himself above everyone here....Bhim, tell us why this part of my discussion would be invalid. Hell, it may be, but I would like to know as well.....so go man go.

Woah there, I only said that I hold myself above you; I haven't commented on my opinion of anyone else. Even here it's only because you've proudly advertised your failure to graduate from high school. What were you expecting? A congratulatory statement based on your refusal to accept free public education? That's about as likely as you praising my rejection of the allegedly free grace of Jesus Christ. Maybe you're worthy of pity if there's an extenuating circumstance involved, but this isn't something that one is typically proud of.

 

Remember, we Indian Americans are raised to believe that the chief end of man is to be admitted to medical school, and that receiving a B+ or lower will condemn one's soul to eternal conscious torment in hell without hope of salvation (=all your mom's friends gossip about how your parents raised a loser). At some level I can't help but judge you for your lack of education, it's woven into my DNA. Maybe this wicked belief stems from our idolatrous religious rituals and/or failure to bow to the bearded white guy on a stick. Or maybe the problem is that all that logic I learned in the pagan temple (college) veils my mind to the connection between a white guy being attached to a stick and loving people born a couple thousand years later.

 

So Bhim, we are going to talk analytical chemistry here. Word up dude. You in or out? It's wonderfully simple with respect to elementary particle physics. You should know this by heart.

Dude, if you didn't graduate high school you may not even know the difference between analytical chemistry and organic chemistry. There's a reason for that stereotype about high school dropouts being idiots, you know. What the heck are we going to talk about, the latest play by Tim Tebow? Because in case you didn't know, those arrows you see in the football play diagrams aren't the same thing as reaction mechanisms.

 

Sorry for being so flippant with you, but so far you have not addressed a single one of my points despite my stipulating to your belief in the existence of God, and there's really nowhere else for us to go if you're not even willing to respond to any legitimate points that I make. In college they teach you how to read arguments and formulate responses, as well as what the word "stipulate" means, so maybe you should try it out sometime. Then again they also teach you that the earth isn't 5,700 years old, so on second thought maybe you shouldn't. I'd ask you to think and decide for yourself, but they teach you how to do that in college too, so...

[mymistake]

 

 

It's not going to bother me MM.   Regardless of whether we deem the Bible stories imaginary or not, the relationships are there.  Why are they there?

 

 

Because hands down the best way to control other people is to create a god and convince people to obey your creation.  You have no reason at all to do what I tell you.  But if I were to write "God's Word" and convince you that God is real then you will happily do what I tell you to do.