Genuine Love

[JamesG]

 

"

 

I stated it only in Christian terms thinking you had the scientific understanding already.

 

Not a big deal about the analogy, just facinated that the parallel exists.   Again, I think we could use the process as evidence just as we use it in science, but we have no understanding of "spirtual quantification".

 

I get the scientific understanding of it and I get the Christian terminology I am granting that you are using them correctly. Aside from there is a parallel what are you trying to point out? I can draw the same parallel to FSM/Hindu gods etc. please continue and explain otherwise it is all pointless if there is nothing else to elaborate other than a parallel.

So what was this, a canard?

 

not at all. The highlighted red shows that for the sake of argument I am not going to debate that you are using the terminology correctly to see where you are trying to go with all of this. The blue shows  that if there is no conclusion to draw upon it is a needless exercise of futility. You could have explained from that point on that you were just trying to establish a parallel but you didn't did you. I feel like you used me as an excuse to spout off your non-sense, I also noted in a follow up post that I was agreeing tentatively which in lay mans terms means temporarily. I have recanted that agreement seeing as this went no where and no longer have the  need to agree with you for the sake of argument as you were not going anywhere with it from the start.

[Guest end3]

Granting?  Wouldn't the point be with all of the conversation to call me on the lack of expertise instead of tentatively granting only to pull it back when you aren't satisfied?  If you ask the question you ask me to yourself. what is the answer you got?  Faith is still the answer.  I guess one could extrapolate backwards in the chemical method to find out why the method was developed in the first place.....error./sin/lack of truth/knowing/understanding....major themes in the BIBLE James.  Just another coincident that has astronomical odds.   

 

And it's not non-sense. it's a legitimate parallel/ correlation.  If you and Bhim are going to be science people, observation is somewhat necessary.

[JamesG]

that point of tentative agreement is to try and understand another persons point of view hence the temporary nature of it. Its not a negative thing but necessary in the course of these conversations when to opposing sides do not see eye to eye. Had you reached a conclusion I very well likely would have disagreed anyways. I was giving you  an opportunity to present your case which you did not do.

[Guest end3]

that point of tentative agreement is to try and understand another persons point of view hence the temporary nature of it. Its not a negative thing but necessary in the course of these conversations when to opposing sides do not see eye to eye. Had you reached a conclusion I very well likely would have disagreed anyways. I was giving you  an opportunity to present your case which you did not do.

I appreciate your effort to understand. 

[JamesG]

I am not going to demean your intelligence but you don't seem to have a strong understanding of the English language. You can be very smart  and we would not know it because of your poor use of grammar and misapplying terminology to suit your needs.

 

this is not meant  to be  offensive

[JamesG]

I really do get where you are coming from with all of this.  Trust me I was there at one point

[Guest end3]

I am not going to demean your intelligence but you don't seem to have a strong understanding of the English language. You can be very smart  and we would not know it because of your poor use of grammar and misapplying terminology to suit your needs.

 

this is not meant  to be  offensive

yes, I am more suited for math and science.  English and I separated around 7th grade.  The good news is I am capable of garnering a better understanding should my redneck heart desire.  Good looking family.  LOL, you're not that pretty, but other than that, my statement holds.  Thanks J.

[mymistake]

 

English and I separated around 7th grade. 

 

Well that explains a lot.  Please don't get angry with the rest of the world over your choice and your limitation.  If you had stuck it out or gone back then you would have better conclusions today.  You would probably still be a Christian but your apologetics would be of a higher quality.  Words strung together in a random fashion do not impart meaning.

[Galien]

 

Actually, I realise that this is exactly the same issue I had with pastors. If you want to tell me how to live, if you have the "best" society, prove it to me, show me something different, something better than all the sad tired bullshit I have heard and seen. Don't give me your rhetoric and your high ideals and your founding fathers.

 

Its the same with all the high ideals in the bible, blah blah blah but no different behaviour from any other sorry bastard.

 

For chrissake just show me SOMETHING.

 

 

How about showing us evidence that any of this isn't imaginary?

 

Like say, when did America tell you how to live?

America tells the whole world how to live

[JamesG]

 

 

Actually, I realise that this is exactly the same issue I had with pastors. If you want to tell me how to live, if you have the "best" society, prove it to me, show me something different, something better than all the sad tired bullshit I have heard and seen. Don't give me your rhetoric and your high ideals and your founding fathers.

 

Its the same with all the high ideals in the bible, blah blah blah but no different behaviour from any other sorry bastard.

 

For chrissake just show me SOMETHING.

 

How about showing us evidence that any of this isn't imaginary?

 

Like say, when did America tell you how to live?

America tells the whole world how to live

 

That's a blanket statement if I ever saw one

 

Galien you really  don't know enough about American politics or demographics otherwise you wouldn't make such an obviously false statement. Some Americans do but other americans don't and Some Americans fight those  that do.

 

We are transitioning to an isolationist position largely because Americans in general are upset with our foreign policies. There is not much support for America the super power any more even among Americans.

[Ravenstar]

You missed my point entirely, I wasn't talking about levels at all... 

 

Extortion is anathema to real love. 

[mymistake]

 

 

Actually, I realise that this is exactly the same issue I had with pastors. If you want to tell me how to live, if you have the "best" society, prove it to me, show me something different, something better than all the sad tired bullshit I have heard and seen. Don't give me your rhetoric and your high ideals and your founding fathers.

 

Its the same with all the high ideals in the bible, blah blah blah but no different behaviour from any other sorry bastard.

 

For chrissake just show me SOMETHING.

 

How about showing us evidence that any of this isn't imaginary?

 

Like say, when did America tell you how to live?

America tells the whole world how to live

 

 

In other words you can't show that any of this is real.  Yeah, that is what I thought.  Rant some more.

[Guest end3]

You missed my point entirely, I wasn't talking about levels at all... 

 

Extortion is anathema to real love. 

There was no extortion in my OP.  Sacrifice was my point. 

[Bhim]

 

 

Prove your last statement oh educated one.

 

Certainly a phd candidate could do so Bhim

 

Your god is a false messiah and thus unable to save anyone.  Deuteronomy 13:1-4 requires any prophet to keep the Law, other passages (e.g. Exodus 12:14) state that the Law remains in effect forever, yet evangelicals eat pork sausage and cling to Mark 7:19 along with intellectual gymnastics to justify themselves.  The fact that evangelicals feel confident in eating at McDonald's should make it patently obvious that Jesus is no messiah.  Your arguments about why God didn't mean what he clearly said in the Torah are ridiculous, and if I believed in the Bible I would regard them as blasphemy.

 

I'm not interested in your theology Bhim. Please answer with regard to your definition of success. I think that will tell us a lot.

 

 

Oh but you are interested in my theology.  Otherwise you wouldn't have asked me to prove my statement that Jesus is impotent to save anyone.  That's a theological question, and Deuteronomy 13 answers it by invalidating the messiahship of Jesus quite concisely.  You say you're uninterested in "my" theology and yet you don't address the testimony of your own scripture.  What would really tell us a lot is you deciding what you want to talk about and sticking to the topic.  So far you've moved from love to analytic chemistry to trading barbs with me.  What's the matter?  Aren't you ready to make a defense to those who ask you for a reason for the hope that is in you, as commanded in 1 Peter 3:15?  Perhaps at some level you see that your would be savior Jesus is a worthless piece of scum who gets off to burning Jews and who inspired Hitler to do the same.  Please tell me what question you want to answer: my definition of success, or why Jesus is a worthless savior?  Before you answer, please note that my definition of success is pretty boring, and wouldn't interest you.  It goes something along the lines of "do what provides you with a happy life" or whatever.

 

Regarding the larger conversation; I freely admit to being an asshole who doesn't care about the feelings of evangelical Christians.  The way I see it, if you believe in eternal hell then you are complicit in the hypothetical evil of Jesus, and I cannot in good conscience respect what you believe because you worship someone worse than the sum of every despot who has ever lived.  Personally I think that being an evangelical Christian is the moral equivalent of being a demon-worshiper: evangelical Christianity is evil and makes its followers bad people.  You remember the pastor who recently made national news for saying that you should beat the gay out of your son the moment you see him display a limp wrist?  If I had a son who "lifted up holy hands" the way evangelicals do in church, I would beat the love of Christ out of him.  Of course I'm speaking figuratively and wouldn't actually beat anyone, but I want you to understand that I view evangelicals with the same moral lens that evangelicals view gays.

 

Now, here's what I find most important about our exchange.  Thus far I've gotten you to respond to my insults one-for-one.  I say something nasty to you, and you respond in kind.  Your alleged savior remained silent when the Jews accused him of every manner of blasphemy.  1 Peter 3:15, which I cited earlier, teaches that you should give a reason for the hope that is in you with gentleness and respect.  You haven't even given a reason for your hope, but if you did I bet you'd be as much of a son of a bitch as I am.  John 14:26 says that the Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance all of Jesus' teachings and give you Jesus' peace.  And yet so far, you are no different than me.

 

Do you realize what is going on here?  You asked for proof that Jesus is a worthless savior who can't impart forgiveness of sin to you.  You are the proof.  There is no evidence that you behave differently than me.  There is no evidence that you behave like Jesus.  Sure, he claims to have tortured billions of innocent souls in hell, but he also responds to his accusers with silence.  You, on the other hand, refuse to be abased by others and are willing to go at this game with me for as long as I like (and I can go quite a bit longer, for every word you say against me diminishes the validity of Jesus as a savior).  Jesus hasn't changed you one bit.  You, who would call me a heathen and an idolater for choosing to retain the religion of my ancestors, are ultimately no different than me.  You are every bit as proud, every bit as arrogant, and like me are unwilling to show charity to the other party when slighted.

 

Do you know why Jesus hasn't changed your heart?  Because he isn't a savior at all!  He is an evil piece of shit who invented a place where he supposedly pours burning sulfur on everyone who didn't believe that they must convert to his made-up religion to be saved.  I hope you continue insulting me, and I you.  I hope that many Christians come to this forum, read our exchange, see that Christians behave no differently than supposedly pagan Hindus, and that they spit on the effeminate, homoerotic pictures of Jesus as they leave their churches in droves.  I am willing to be an asshole because I don't believe God requires me to turn the other cheek.  Your willingness to sink to my level is a far better testimony than Deuteronomy 13 that Jesus is a monster who should have been stoned to death the day he said the word "hell."  Please let us continue.

[mymistake]

 

Oh but you are interested in my theology.  Otherwise you wouldn't have asked me to prove my statement that Jesus is impotent to save anyone.  That's a theological question, and Deuteronomy 13 answers it by invalidating the messiahship of Jesus quite concisely.  

 

 

 

Wow.  I haven't read Deuteronomy 13 in a while.  The Bible demands that Christians be executed.  It's right there.  Thanks for bringing that up.  It's the ultimate anti-thesis for Christianity.

[Galien]

 

 

 

Actually, I realise that this is exactly the same issue I had with pastors. If you want to tell me how to live, if you have the "best" society, prove it to me, show me something different, something better than all the sad tired bullshit I have heard and seen. Don't give me your rhetoric and your high ideals and your founding fathers.

 

Its the same with all the high ideals in the bible, blah blah blah but no different behaviour from any other sorry bastard.

 

For chrissake just show me SOMETHING.

 

How about showing us evidence that any of this isn't imaginary?

 

Like say, when did America tell you how to live?

America tells the whole world how to live

 

That's a blanket statement if I ever saw one

 

Galien you really  don't know enough about American politics or demographics otherwise you wouldn't make such an obviously false statement. Some Americans do but other americans don't and Some Americans fight those  that do.

 

We are transitioning to an isolationist position largely because Americans in general are upset with our foreign policies. There is not much support for America the super power any more even among Americans.

 

 

Okay maybe I should qualify it by saying the institutions that run your country. I'm not blaming evey single american for the things decision makers do. What I am saying from an OUTSIDE point of view is that it is almost impossible for me to escape american influence in just about every area of my life. I dislike it because it is capitalist driven, and I don't like capitalism.

[Galien]

Now, here's what I find most important about our exchange.  Thus far I've gotten you to respond to my insults one-for-one.  I say something nasty to you, and you respond in kind.  Your alleged savior remained silent when the Jews accused him of every manner of blasphemy.  1 Peter 3:15, which I cited earlier, teaches that you should give a reason for the hope that is in you with gentleness and respect.  You haven't even given a reason for your hope, but if you did I bet you'd be as much of a son of a bitch as I am.  John 14:26 says that the Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance all of Jesus' teachings and give you Jesus' peace.  And yet so far, you are no different than me.

 

Do you realize what is going on here?  You asked for proof that Jesus is a worthless savior who can't impart forgiveness of sin to you.  You are the proof.  There is no evidence that you behave differently than me.  There is no evidence that you behave like Jesus.  Sure, he claims to have tortured billions of innocent souls in hell, but he also responds to his accusers with silence.  You, on the other hand, refuse to be abased by others and are willing to go at this game with me for as long as I like (and I can go quite a bit longer, for every word you say against me diminishes the validity of Jesus as a savior).  Jesus hasn't changed you one bit.  You, who would call me a heathen and an idolater for choosing to retain the religion of my ancestors, are ultimately no different than me.  You are every bit as proud, every bit as arrogant, and like me are unwilling to show charity to the other party when slighted.

 

Do you know why Jesus hasn't changed your heart?  Because he isn't a savior at all!  He is an evil piece of shit who invented a place where he supposedly pours burning sulfur on everyone who didn't believe that they must convert to his made-up religion to be saved.  I hope you continue insulting me, and I you.  I hope that many Christians come to this forum, read our exchange, see that Christians behave no differently than supposedly pagan Hindus, and that they spit on the effeminate, homoerotic pictures of Jesus as they leave their churches in droves.  I am willing to be an asshole because I don't believe God requires me to turn the other cheek.  Your willingness to sink to my level is a far better testimony than Deuteronomy 13 that Jesus is a monster who should have been stoned to death the day he said the word "hell."  Please let us continue.

 

 

See this right here?? This is why I left the church. Christians are no differnt from anyone else, and in some cases worse. And while I think this reluctance to let go of ego has more to do with testosterone than anything else, it is why I left christianity. It doesn't DO anything.

 

Whilst I dislike Bhim's philosophy of life, I applaud his honesty.

[Guest end3]

Bhim, Galien,

 

It's a process, not a switch.  The switch would be at the end imo.  Kind of like AA.  Go to the meetings, practice the instructions. better results (life).  It is all done through faith in the process.  Granted when Christians have poor behavior, they might be having a crisis of faith.

 

Blessings.

[Bhim]

Bhim, Galien,

 

It's a process, not a switch. The switch would be at the end imo. Kind of like AA. Go to the meetings, practice the instructions. better results (life). It is all done through faith in the process. Granted when Christians have poor behavior, they might be having a crisis of faith.

 

Blessings.

Are you telling me you're having a crisis of faith? Because you do display poor behavior, and there's no evidence whatsoever of Jesus' influence in your life. Maybe it's time for you to leave Christianity.

[Guest end3]

 

Bhim, Galien,

 

It's a process, not a switch. The switch would be at the end imo. Kind of like AA. Go to the meetings, practice the instructions. better results (life). It is all done through faith in the process. Granted when Christians have poor behavior, they might be having a crisis of faith.

 

Blessings.

Are you telling me you're having a crisis of faith? Because you do display poor behavior, and there's no evidence whatsoever of Jesus' influence in your life. Maybe it's time for you to leave Christianity.

 

Could be faith, could be lack of going to church lately.  If I believe something strongly enough, then my actions usually follow.  So it is with Christianity.  Although I feel I have a pretty good grasp on the Christian concept, sometime per my humanity, I choose to not act as I should.  Pretty simple.  But still, it's a process....two steps forward, one step back.

[Ravenstar]

There doesn't have to be.. the entirety of the 'plan' in the bible is about extortion...(love me.. without evidence.. or else) and sacrificing an innocent for the guilty is ridiculous and disgusting.

 

the whole blood thing is stupid and comes from a time when sacrifice of humans and animals was common... because people believed that the 'gods' (and there are a multitude) in some way could be appeased by blood.. by life. Might as well be an Aztec, they took blood sacrifice to an amazing degree.. really creative.

 

it's flippin' creepy really.. what does an incorporeal being need with blood? It's cosmic vampirism.

 

Plus.. IF jesus is god.. that's no sacrifice at all. Because he's IMMORTAL... and all those other omni's.. 3 days?  Big friggin' deal. Then he get's to be the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE... FOREVAH!!!!   mwahahahahahaha... really?  Those poor people the Inquisition tortured in the name of God had it worse... WAY worse. Go google the torture devices of the Inquisition.. read up on some of the creative and horrifying treatments... tell me how bad Jesus had it after you've contemplated how bad it is for a child who has been sold into sexual slavery, at 5.

 

Not much of a sacrifice anyway... even if I believed that was the epitome of real love, which I do not. Jesus could have saved more lives by remaining among us and teaching us how to care for one another... or even wash our hands, or treat women properly. Abolishing slavery could have been a good start.

 

The story, once seen in it's entirety, without the god goggles... is ridiculous. It's not the pinnacle of love, that's for darn sure.

[Guest end3]

There doesn't have to be.. the entirety of the 'plan' in the bible is about extortion...(love me.. without evidence.. or else) and sacrificing an innocent for the guilty is ridiculous and disgusting.

 

the whole blood thing is stupid and comes from a time when sacrifice of humans and animals was common... because people believed that the 'gods' (and there are a multitude) in some way could be appeased by blood.. by life. Might as well be an Aztec, they took blood sacrifice to an amazing degree.. really creative.

 

it's flippin' creepy really.. what does an incorporeal being need with blood? It's cosmic vampirism.

 

Plus.. IF jesus is god.. that's no sacrifice at all. Because he's IMMORTAL... and all those other omni's.. 3 days?  Big friggin' deal. Then he get's to be the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE... FOREVAH!!!!   mwahahahahahaha... really?  Those poor people the Inquisition tortured in the name of God had it worse... WAY worse. Go google the torture devices of the Inquisition.. read up on some of the creative and horrifying treatments... tell me how bad Jesus had it after you've contemplated how bad it is for a child who has been sold into sexual slavery, at 5.

 

Not much of a sacrifice anyway... even if I believed that was the epitome of real love, which I do not. Jesus could have saved more lives by remaining among us and teaching us how to care for one another... or even wash our hands, or treat women properly. Abolishing slavery could have been a good start.

 

The story, once seen in it's entirety, without the god goggles... is ridiculous. It's not the pinnacle of love, that's for darn sure.

Why don't you talk about what is really bothering you.  Just to tell it to someone helps.  I have near exactly the same thoughts and they are horrific to deal with.

 

To your post:  I don't see it the same way.  God offered a relationship many times with people.  As it is, I think his options were to give them the instructions and say this is what will happen provided you follow the instructions.  The evidence are the results of the process.  People have to learn the process through their own battle with ego and periods of in and out of the learning process.  Cause is a whole different discussion. 

[Ravenstar]

I just did...  thanks for listening 

 

and the things that REALLY BUG ME are the daily things I have to deal with, like raising a teenager by myself, and paying bills, and trying my best to be the person I want to be and contribute some good to the world, a little anyway.

 

you know.. real life

 

hugs!

[Bhim]

Just to be clear End, are you basically admitting to being a shitty example of a Christian?

 

If so, I find this to be a common line of reasoning among evangelicals. It's often a deflection technique. The idea is "I'm a bad person and I need Jesus, so look to Jesus, not me." Sorry, but that doesn't work. Jesus said that people would see his work in them by the way they lived their lives (Sermon on the Mount and High Priestly Prayer). If you're a bad Christian it's because Jesus hasn't worked in you. And I would say that's because he's a false god.

 

And if you're not admitting to being a shitty Christian...well, the fact that you join me in the mud pit indicates what kinds of values your false god holds to. You definitely haven't convinced anyone to convert with this type of behavior. Neither have I, but then mine is not a proselytizing religion, so you lose.

[Guest end3]

Just to be clear End, are you basically admitting to being a shitty example of a Christian?

 

If so, I find this to be a common line of reasoning among evangelicals. It's often a deflection technique. The idea is "I'm a bad person and I need Jesus, so look to Jesus, not me." Sorry, but that doesn't work. Jesus said that people would see his work in them by the way they lived their lives (Sermon on the Mount and High Priestly Prayer). If you're a bad Christian it's because Jesus hasn't worked in you. And I would say that's because he's a false god.

 

And if you're not admitting to being a shitty Christian...well, the fact that you join me in the mud pit indicates what kinds of values your false god holds to. You definitely haven't convinced anyone to convert with this type of behavior. Neither have I, but then mine is not a proselytizing religion, so you lose.

You have reading comprehension issues Bhim?  Go re-read.