Genuine Love

[Guest end3]

I just did...  thanks for listening 

 

and the things that REALLY BUG ME are the daily things I have to deal with, like raising a teenager by myself, and paying bills, and trying my best to be the person I want to be and contribute some good to the world, a little anyway.

 

you know.. real life

 

hugs!

I'm not going to take this as sarcasm per our usual exchanges that I remember or don't, but the pain for me is deeper, and worse, and I don't like to bring it up because it hurts and it makes me be a bad person.  And when it comes up, I often feed it with things that it likes.....it likes alcohol.   I view the rest of my complaining as symptoms of the buried crap.  But somehow, there is a way to bring it to the surface and let it escape.  Crying seems to be one method.

[Bhim]

End, you admitted to not having any formal English training past the 7th grade. Others have asked you to exercise better quality of writing. If there's a miscommunication here it is because you don't know how to write particularly well. You apparently didn't even make it as far in school as my grandmother, who managed to get to the eighth grade. In the forties. In India.

 

Go get your GED, and you might be in a position to critique other posters' English. Until then remove the plank from your own eye and please clarify your posts when asked to. So I ask you again: do you consider yourself a good example of a Christian to be imitated by others?

[Guest end3]

End, you admitted to not having any formal English training past the 7th grade. Others have asked you to exercise better quality of writing. If there's a miscommunication here it is because you don't know how to write particularly well. You apparently didn't even make it as far in school as my grandmother, who managed to get to the eighth grade. In the forties. In India.

 

Go get your GED, and you might be in a position to critique other posters' English. Until then remove the plank from your own eye and please clarify your posts when asked to. So I ask you again: do you consider yourself a good example of a Christian to be imitated by others?

Quit blaming my writing Bhim.  I write well enough that you can understand.  I was a deacon in my church Bhim.  150+ folks thought I was worthy of the title.  I explained it was a process and how one could let the process lapse due to ego.  Your thoughts?  If you can't get the gist of this explanation Bhim, I can't help you.

[mymistake]

 

You have reading comprehension issues Bhim?  Go re-read.

 

 

End it was your own choices that resulted in your poor writing skills.  Don't go blaming.  Take responsibility.  When people ask you to clarify don't get angry.  Simply clarify.

[Galien]

End has made himself clear. He thinks the kudos of 150+ people in church means he is a good person. Clearly he cannot understand what that is on his own.He chooses to exercise bad choices when it comes to how he treats other people. He uses alcohol to feed the avoidance of his personal problems. There is nothing wrong with the way he writes.

 

Everything he says points to the obvious,he is a flawed, lazy human being lacking in empathy who chooses to turn his face away from those things most important in life. His christianity has not taught him grace, mercy, forgiveness or kindness. It has taught him to make excuses for his selfishness. He has not read the bible in a way that helped him understand that life is about others as much or more than it is about him. He selfishly clings to his ego like most people, christian or not, and ignores his own lack of empathy, which probably causes a lot of his problems.

 

This is why christianity is a stupid, pointless exercise. Certainly hasn't done End any favours.

[Ravenstar]

 

 

I just did...  thanks for listening  

 

and the things that REALLY BUG ME are the daily things I have to deal with, like raising a teenager by myself, and paying bills, and trying my best to be the person I want to be and contribute some good to the world, a little anyway.

 

you know.. real life

 

hugs!

I'm not going to take this as sarcasm per our usual exchanges that I remember or don't, but the pain for me is deeper, and worse, and I don't like to bring it up because it hurts and it makes me be a bad person.  And when it comes up, I often feed it with things that it likes.....it likes alcohol.   I view the rest of my complaining as symptoms of the buried crap.  But somehow, there is a way to bring it to the surface and let it escape.  Crying seems to be one method.

 

This was not sarcasm

 

I've been kinda reading this thread and I feel a whole lot of anger from you... like you are taking your pain and channeling it into this thread.

 

PAIN does not make you a bad person, avoiding pain and disowning it makes one a bad person, because it's an EMOTION.. and it ain't going away until it is acknowledged and accepted. LIFE FUCKING HURTS End3.. that's a fact. This is something I find that christians have a problem with.. they think that life either shouldn't hurt, or that because they are god's special little kids they should be exempt.. or when that fails they need to think it's a test of some sort. Or if it's a REAL vale of tears at least it will be better in heaven.. whatever. Emotions are energy, with a message.. but as long as we remember that (they don't last forever) it gets a little easier. Feelings are not facts.

 

It's just life.. and it frequently sucks.

 

I don't want to dis your pain... but your pain, and mine.. and Galiens, and mymistakes... whoever's — is the same. We all experience pain... it's a part of life. What we DO with it is the measure of who we are, or are at least trying to be.

 

You are going through a divorce.. pain, loss, grief, despair, guilt, helplessness, etc..

 

I am going through a very trying time with a troubled teenager, alone... pain, loss, grief, despair, guilt, helplessness, etc..

 

Others here have their own trials and tribulations... but the human experience of pain, it's the same no matter who you are. Or what you believe.. though the beliefs can impact how you deal with life's bumps and bruises.

 

I didn't want to say this before but I will now. Love is letting go... meeting life on life's terms. period. There's no negotiating or reprieve... just endurance and acceptance and changing oneself to adapt to it. It's maintaining one's integrity in the face of adversity. It's being honest with ones self... and accepting this very harsh truth—we have actually very little control over our lives... just ourselves. It's not easy... was never meant to be.. it just is.

 

Love is not projecting one's pain on others... judgement is the way we do that. Not good. Once we feel superior to another that's the red flag that we have crossed the line and become unloving.

 

Think about this in the subjects that have been touched on here.. you'll see what I mean. 

[mymistake]

End has made himself clear. He thinks the kudos of 150+ people in church means he is a good person. Clearly he cannot understand what that is on his own.He chooses to exercise bad choices when it comes to how he treats other people. He uses alcohol to feed the avoidance of his personal problems. There is nothing wrong with the way he writes.

 

Everything he says points to the obvious,he is a flawed, lazy human being lacking in empathy who chooses to turn his face away from those things most important in life. His christianity has not taught him grace, mercy, forgiveness or kindness. It has taught him to make excuses for his selfishness. He has not read the bible in a way that helped him understand that life is about others as much or more than it is about him. He selfishly clings to his ego like most people, christian or not, and ignores his own lack of empathy, which probably causes a lot of his problems.

 

This is why christianity is a stupid, pointless exercise. Certainly hasn't done End any favours.

 

Once again you fail while doing your standard projection rant.  End has made mistakes and he has a few flaws but nobody is as bad as you make them out when you are on your soapbox.  Hitler wasn't as bad as you paint the average guy.  Having a y-chromosome is not the meaning of "selfish".   I don't appreciate you picking on End when you know he has family trouble.  He chose to share that info so that people would support him, not so they would use it against him.

[Galien]

 

End has made himself clear. He thinks the kudos of 150+ people in church means he is a good person. Clearly he cannot understand what that is on his own.He chooses to exercise bad choices when it comes to how he treats other people. He uses alcohol to feed the avoidance of his personal problems. There is nothing wrong with the way he writes.

 

Everything he says points to the obvious,he is a flawed, lazy human being lacking in empathy who chooses to turn his face away from those things most important in life. His christianity has not taught him grace, mercy, forgiveness or kindness. It has taught him to make excuses for his selfishness. He has not read the bible in a way that helped him understand that life is about others as much or more than it is about him. He selfishly clings to his ego like most people, christian or not, and ignores his own lack of empathy, which probably causes a lot of his problems.

 

This is why christianity is a stupid, pointless exercise. Certainly hasn't done End any favours.

 

Once again you fail while doing your standard projection rant.  End has made mistakes and he has a few flaws but nobody is as bad as you make them out when you are on your soapbox.  Hitler wasn't as bad as you paint the average guy.  Having a y-chromosome is not the meaning of "selfish".   I don't appreciate you picking on End when you know he has family trouble.  He chose to share that info so that people would support him, not so they would use it against him.

 

 

No one is picking on End. I am just stating the obvious because I know I have been guilty of all of the above, and have lived through some pretty serious family trouble because of it. We are all as bad as I make us out to be. We just don't like admitting it.

 

Imagine how much easier life could be for all of us if we learned to admit it before we wreak havoc on each other.

[mymistake]

 

 

No one is picking on End. I am just stating the obvious because I know I have been guilty of all of the above, and have lived through some pretty serious family trouble because of it. We are all as bad as I make us out to be. We just don't like admitting it.

 

Imagine how much easier life could be for all of us if we learned to admit it before we wreak havoc on each other.

 

 

 

Most of your statements are obviously false.  Why don't you start by learning to admit it when you pick on people?  Yes, yes, stop wrecking havoc on others.  That would be a good place to start.

 

End loves his children deeply.  I can cite dozens of his posts that demonstrate this and it flies in the face of the attacks you made against him.  

Part of him still loves his Ex.  He is in morning for what he has lost.

End is still being poisoned by that horrible religion.  

There but by the chance of blind luck go I.

 

Now if you are not going to help could you at least do no harm?

[RankStranger]

Sorry to hear about your family problems End.  I wasn't aware of that.

[Ravenstar]

We are NOT all as bad as you seem to believe.

 

That's the message that drove me from christianity for krikey's sake... we are just humans living in a world that is frequently very painful... doing the best we can.. and most of us are the walking wounded. We don't respond as well as we could...we are all doing the best we can with what we have to work with, and some of us don't have much.. some are lucky to have more moral resources. Religion can mess things up by setting standards that are either contrary, arbitrary or unattainable.. SHAME does not heal... ever. It is toxic.

 

That goes for me, End.. all of us.

 

The measure is how we project those things, as I said earlier. It's an easy way to see things and people as they are.

[Galien]

 

 

 

No one is picking on End. I am just stating the obvious because I know I have been guilty of all of the above, and have lived through some pretty serious family trouble because of it. We are all as bad as I make us out to be. We just don't like admitting it.

 

Imagine how much easier life could be for all of us if we learned to admit it before we wreak havoc on each other.

 

 

 

Most of your statements are obviously false.  Why don't you start by learning to admit it when you pick on people?  Yes, yes, stop wrecking havoc on others.  That would be a good place to start.

 

End loves his children deeply.  I can cite dozens of his posts that demonstrate this and it flies in the face of the attacks you made against him.  

Part of him still loves his Ex.  He is in morning for what he has lost.

End is still being poisoned by that horrible religion.  

There but by the chance of blind luck go I.

 

Now if you are not going to help could you at least do no harm?

 

 

If you care about people, you tell them the truth. I bet his ex would have a very different view of him that he does of himself. For chrissake MM grow up. If you lose something, it is up to you to decide what your part in losing it was. If you don't work that out, you will continue to lose things. Why do you think so many second and subsequent marriages fail? Most people will tell you how deeply they love their children. In the OP End talked about genuine love and sacrifice. Part of genuine love is indeed sacrifice, and sometimes it means sacrificing your ego and the way you hold onto stupid shit like pride when it comes to your relationships. My therapist does a lot of marriage counselling and she tells me the number one reason for marriage breakdown is the refusal of BOTH individuals to deal with their own problems.

 

Gets to a point where you can no longer blame christianity for your own failings. Just own them, and fix them up.

[Galien]

We are NOT all as bad as you seem to believe.

 

That's the message that drove me from christianity for krikey's sake... we are just humans living in a world that is frequently very painful... doing the best we can.. and most of us are the walking wounded. We don't respond as well as we could...we are all doing the best we can with what we have to work with, and some of us don't have much.. some are lucky to have more moral resources. Religion can mess things up by setting standards that are either contrary, arbitrary or unattainable.. SHAME does not heal... ever. It is toxic.

 

That goes for me, End.. all of us.

 

The measure is how we project those things, as I said earlier. It's an easy way to see things and people as they are.

 

Fine. This is not about shame or chistianity or anything that allows us to be flawed because we have no choice. We always have a choice about how we treat other people, and how honest we are prepared to be with ourswelves and others.

[mymistake]

 

 

If you care about people, you tell them the truth. I bet his ex would have a very different view of him that he does of himself. For chrissake MM grow up. If you lose something, it is up to you to decide what your part in losing it was. If you don't work that out, you will continue to lose things. Why do you think so many second and subsequent marriages fail? Most people will tell you how deeply they love their children. In the OP End talked about genuine love and sacrifice. Part of genuine love is indeed sacrifice, and sometimes it means sacrificing your ego and the way you hold onto stupid shit like pride when it comes to your relationships. My therapist does a lot of marriage counselling and she tells me the number one reason for marriage breakdown is the refusal of BOTH individuals to deal with their own problems.

 

Gets to a point where you can no longer blame christianity for your own failings. Just own them, and fix them up.

 

 

The truth is you can't psychoanalyze people from the other side of the planet.  You would not be qualified to do it if you were in the same room.  Your summary of others is always a variation of the same pattern no matter what they say or do.  It's a strong indicator that you made you mind up ahead of time and that your accusations are not based on facts.

[Galien]

 

 

 

If you care about people, you tell them the truth. I bet his ex would have a very different view of him that he does of himself. For chrissake MM grow up. If you lose something, it is up to you to decide what your part in losing it was. If you don't work that out, you will continue to lose things. Why do you think so many second and subsequent marriages fail? Most people will tell you how deeply they love their children. In the OP End talked about genuine love and sacrifice. Part of genuine love is indeed sacrifice, and sometimes it means sacrificing your ego and the way you hold onto stupid shit like pride when it comes to your relationships. My therapist does a lot of marriage counselling and she tells me the number one reason for marriage breakdown is the refusal of BOTH individuals to deal with their own problems.

 

Gets to a point where you can no longer blame christianity for your own failings. Just own them, and fix them up.

 

 

The truth is you can't psychoanalyze people from the other side of the planet.  You would not be qualified to do it if you were in the same room.  Your summary of others is always a variation of the same pattern no matter what they say or do.  It's a strong indicator that you made you mind up ahead of time and that your accusations are not based on facts.

 

 

Perhaps it is a strong indication of the fact  I have lived on the planet for fifty two years, had close experience with every kind of person imaginable, and I actually give a shit about what happens to End. End has said more than once he has problems relinquishing power in his relationship. Our society teaches us to be hard, self centred and lack in empathy. Of course this lives on a bell curve like most human behaviour, but it is TRUE. I grew up with values that preceeded this way of living and I don't fucking like it because I can see what it is doing to our society. Selfishness does tend to make people act in the same pattern. Problem with you mate is that you have come to think it is normal, like many other people. People accept it because it is easier to make little or no effort for others. It sucks, and diminishes all of us.

[Ravenstar]

ironic

 

Honesty IS what it comes down to though... but honesty with compassion and humility is a precious thing. I frequently fail this one, but I keep getting on that horse because I know I don't have a corner on suffering anymore than anyone else.

 

Flawed is a ridiculous term.. we are damaged, not flawed. Living past your first year ensures being damaged to some degree. Shame and religion and judgement and callousness just adds to it.

 

End is working through this stuff.. and we are the safest place for him to do that... that's obvious.

[JamesG]

 

End, you admitted to not having any formal English training past the 7th grade. Others have asked you to exercise better quality of writing. If there's a miscommunication here it is because you don't know how to write particularly well. You apparently didn't even make it as far in school as my grandmother, who managed to get to the eighth grade. In the forties. In India.

 

Go get your GED, and you might be in a position to critique other posters' English. Until then remove the plank from your own eye and please clarify your posts when asked to. So I ask you again: do you consider yourself a good example of a Christian to be imitated by others?

Quit blaming my writing Bhim.  I write well enough that you can understand.  I was a deacon in my church Bhim.  150+ folks thought I was worthy of the title.  I explained it was a process and how one could let the process lapse due to ego.  Your thoughts?  If you can't get the gist of this explanation Bhim, I can't help you.

 

No your writing is an issue and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be a deacon ignorance  can be valued for that position. But aside from that at this stage in life you probably don't need a GED but it would be nice if you took some writing courses online or something it would help your written communication skills immensely your verbal skills  are not always  associated  to written so you could be a very  capable speaker but a poor writer. Your skills in grammar might be fine or scheduling etc. but  when you try to describe esoteric ideas things reaaaally start to break down for you.

 

You mentioned when you get depressed or emotional you feed it with booze have you considered  you have an alcohol problem. I really recommend therapy.

[Bhim]

OK...a lot of new information (new to me) has come out in the past few posts.  I wasn't aware that End has gone through a divorce.  I wasn't aware that he has issues dealing with his kids.  These are not things that I would wish on him, and I am sorry that these circumstances has befallen him.  It doesn't at all change my opinion that he's a proudly-uneducated dimwit who ought not be discussing philosophy or theology, but it is most unfortunate that he's suffered these things.  Divorce and other troubles are things that I would not wish on an enemy (not that I consider End an enemy in the slightest).  These are the sorts of things that can ruin your life, and I am truly sorry that he is dealing with them.

 

And yet, none of this mitigates one salient detail of his life: he is an evangelical Christian!  He believes that we are all going to an eternal hell when we die, where God will endlessly pour fire on us to torture us for not bowing to a bearded, long-haired European man on an ancient Roman version of an electric chair.  I support people's rights to believe as they choose, even if that belief happens to be racist, sexist, homophobic, or whatever else.  But we can judge actions.  Belief in evangelical Christianity requires the believer to go out and publically tell people that they are going to hell and need to convert to Christianity.  It requires the believer to donate his money to a church, so that missionaries can be sent abroad to destroy cultures and rip apart families.

 

End has himself suffered family dysfunction, which is most unfortunate.  Do you guys have any idea how many families have suffered because of evangelical Christianity?  Go convert a Jew or a Hindu to Christianity, and watch how the poison known as the blood of Christ quickly destroys the family like a pathogen.  Or if you lack patience, go convert a Muslim in Iran and watch him die the next day.  End stated that he was a deacon in a church.  How many missionaries did the church send out?  How many more missionary organizations did tithes from this church fund?  I guarantee you, missionaries have caused plenty of families to split.

 

We are all ex-Christians on a forum for ex-Christians.  Every one of us has suffered at the hands of the demon Jesus to some degree or another.  These forums are filled with stories about how peoples' lives have been ruined by Christianity.  Just earlier today I was reading about one poster who's suffering from severe OCD and fear that he sold his soul to the devil.  All because some evangelical asked him "have you met Jesus?"

 

My point is this: it is not OK to be an evangelical Christian.  This is the moral equivalent of membership in the Nazi party.  Being an evangelical makes you a bad person, because you believe in an evil philosophy and act on it.  And it causes measurable harm to people, as evidenced by so many posts on this forum.  How many of us here can say that our lives would be better if that one Christian didn't hand us a Bible or pray with us or ask us to come to church with them?  I lost six years of my life to Jesus, and that's a very low figure given the large number of 50+ year old ex-Christians we have here.  I'm sorry that End has family troubles, I really am.  But that doesn't mitigate the role he has played as a member of a church, and the families that he has destroyed, whether directly or indirectly.

 

By all means, express sympathy for End and offer him any help or advice you can.  If I could do something reasonable to help him, I would.  But please, I ask that people not pretend he is living a harmless life.  His belief in Jesus hurts people, and he needs to stop being a Christian.

[Galien]

I don't see it the same way as you Bhim, I don't care what people believe, that is their business. I don't think christianity causes any more harm in the world than greed or selfishness. End is not personally responsible for people choosing to believe in god.

 

End just needs to start being honest, about everything, including christianity.

[Bhim]

I don't see it the same way as you Bhim, I don't care what people believe, that is their business. I don't think christianity causes any more harm in the world than greed or selfishness. End is not personally responsible for people choosing to believe in god.

 

End just needs to start being honest, about everything, including christianity.

 

Are you telling me End is not responsible for giving money to missionaries who then travel to the other side of the world?  Please don't take this personally, but that line of reasoning is as absurd as it is to say that if I pressure a kid to do heroin, I'm not directly responsible for destorying his life.

 

Actually the Christian is worse than the drug dealer.  At least drug users have Narcotics Anonymous.  With the exception of small places like this forum, I don't know of any place where you can go to recover from Christianity.  Most people don't even realize that Christianity is a moral evil.

[Bhim]

Galien, please recall my statement that I do believe in others' right to believe as they choose.  It's actions that I judge.  If you want to believe that I am going to hell, fine.  But don't ask me to convert, and for God's sake don't spend billions of dollars on missionary campaigns to demean my religion and entice its members to convert.  That is morally wrong.

[Galien]

Galien, please recall my statement that I do believe in others' right to believe as they choose.  It's actions that I judge.  If you want to believe that I am going to hell, fine.  But don't ask me to convert, and for God's sake don't spend billions of dollars on missionary campaigns to demean my religion and entice its members to convert.  That is morally wrong.

 

Well their bible tells them so. Even as a christian I would not "witness" to other people. They believe it is an imperative, and almost a condition of their salvation. Like every religion the chief belief is that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and the world can only be set to rights if everyone believes as they do. They are compelled to do it socially, brainwashed into believing it matters. Stops them from actually examining their own lives if they can be busy concentrating on eveyrone else's.

[Bhim]

Quit blaming my writing Bhim.  I write well enough that you can understand.  I was a deacon in my church Bhim.  150+ folks thought I was worthy of the title.  I explained it was a process and how one could let the process lapse due to ego.  Your thoughts?  If you can't get the gist of this explanation Bhim, I can't help you.

 

No, you do not write well enough that I can understand, and I think this may be one of your fundamental difficulties.  Consider post #241.  You said a bunch of stuff about analytical models and higher energy, and I had no idea what you were talking about.  You even talked about the standard model, and I couldn't understand you.  The standard model is the basis for modern particle physics.  You'd think if anyone on this forum would understand what you were talking about, it would be me.  Because...you know, I'm a physicist.  I get paid to think about stuff like the standard model.  The reason I didn't understand you is because there was nothing to understand.  You are communicating whatever it is you want to say very poorly.

 

Let's be clear.  I'm not insulting you because you didn't graduate high school, but because you celebrate the fact that you didn't.  There are posters who make comments on the science vs. religion forum here.  Many of these people openly admit to having no formal training in science, yet ask questions and make comments.  Not once have I demeaned one of these posters for their lack of education.  You know why?  Because they value and respect knowledge, and seek it out.  There are ways to gain knowledge outside of a classroom, and these posters seek it out.  You treat intelligence as something to be ashamed of, and make it clear that you envy those who possess it (which is a sin against Jesus, I'll remind you yet again).

 

This is the second time you've asked me to stop insulting your intelligence, or rather lack thereof.  The first time I said I was happy to oblige, and yet you continued to revel in your own ignorance and diminish the importance of education.  I suggest you make up your mind about how you would like to proceed.  Once again (and probably for the last time), I'll not raise the issue of your lack of education with you.  But if you do, I'll happily address it.  I'd prefer you simply admit to being not very bright, so that I can know that you've repented of your disrespect for wisdom, but this would be humiliating and that's not what I'm after.  Do not glorify ignorance unless you want to know, yet again, what I think about this.

 

If you do so, we'll likely get into another war of insults.  The beauty of this is that since I don't believe in Jesus, I can pretty much say whatever I want.  You, however, are constrained by certain rules.  For example:

 

• Turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39).  You shouldn't even be responding to my insults.  You do because you're an arrogant bastard like me.  Jesus has no effect on your life.
• Don't revile when reviled (1 Peter 2:23).  When I accuse you of being an idiot, why do you defend yourself?  Jesus was called a blasphemer and he didn't bother defending himself, he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly.  I guess that only works if you believe that Jesus is a good example to follow.
• No crude joking (Ephesians 5:4).  You know that at some point I'm going to push you past your limit and you'll say something unkind about my mother.  Take care that it isn't sexual in nature, because that sort of humor is forbidden to Christians.
• Being angry isn't an excuse for sinning (Ephesians 4:26).  I'm sure at some level you're thinking "Bhim pissed me off, so I broke the rules and said something sinful."  Jesus doesn't give you a pass for that.
• You think I'm going to an eternal hell?  Why not just pour burning coals on my head right now (Romans 12:20)?  By responding to my rudeness with kindness, the Bible says that's what you're doing.  But you and I both know that this is no consolation at all.  Again, because Jesus isn't real.

I'll let your next response dictate how I should proceed.

 

Oh, I'll also let you in on a secret.  The pastor of one of my old churches also asked me to be a deacon.  I declined for pretty mundane reasons, but apparently he thought I was worthy of the title as well.  Guess what?  This doesn't make me any smarter.  Finishing high school is what makes me smarter.

[Bhim]

Well their bible tells them so. Even as a christian I would not "witness" to other people. They believe it is an imperative, and almost a condition of their salvation. Like every religion the chief belief is that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and the world can only be set to rights if everyone believes as they do. They are compelled to do it socially, brainwashed into believing it matters. Stops them from actually examining their own lives if they can be busy concentrating on eveyrone else's.

OK, again I say this with respect (seriously, while I may vehemently disagree I don't want you to feel there's any hostility between us).  Are you really saying that because the Bible instructs these people to do evil things, evangelicals are morally excused?  The excuse "I was just following orders" was employed at the Nuremberg trials in the hopes of acquiting those who took part in genocide.  And unlike the Bible, the Nazi government had real power over these people.  Why do you excuse evangelicals for obeying Jesus but not Nazis for obeying their government?  Or do you see validity in the Nuremberg Defense?

 

Furthermore, I disagree with your claim that "every religion" holds to a belief in exclusivity and necessity to convert.  My religion does not teach this.  While most Hindus do believe that some beliefs are flat out wrong (for example, we tend not to like evangelical Christianity), we specifically do not believe that only we are correct, and we do not proselytize.  "Religion" isn't generically the problem.  Jesus is the only evil we need discuss here.

 

What you've provided is an explanation for why evangelicals believe as they do.  I'm sure some Jew did something to offend Hitler too.  Explaining evangelicals' actions doesn't do anything to absolve them.  And I'll add that my comparison of Jesus to Hitler is intentional, for both men believe it is just and right to torture innocent souls en masse.

[Guest end3]

I sure you don't know my history well enough G to make the statements you made.  Even if, I don't find it the best thing to express everything I believe to know about someone.  It's about as effective as calling someone fat or ugly.  Many of the things you credited me with are significantly incorrect.  That's ok.  One thing, I am damn sure not lazy.  Started at 4:50 this morning and it is 10:47 atm and I am still running samples in my lab.  I do that a lot.  Someone ma'am has to pay the bills for the children.

 

Bhim, you do realize you can get a BS in the state of Texas with 6 hours of English lit. and one tech writing class and that if you try you can substitute another class for tech writing?  Well, let me assure you in 1990, that was the case.  If I felt communication was more vital than the level I have attained, then I would go enroll again.  And I am guessing you are a young man.  Your thinking you know more or assuming you know more than you actually do is typical for young men.  You are typical.  Also, you might want to start checking the ego meter now because you are already demonstrating the disgusting attributes that most PhD's achieve in their own minds.  Also Bhim, if you look closely enough, you will find that most everyone is saying the same thing with regard to belief.  The different religions speak to what people are able to hear and make the most sense.  I would suggest that you look at the different languages and see how similar they really are.....Christianity included. 

 

James, been addicted, done with that, but thanks for the suggestion....(and I already go to therapy).

 

RS, yes, I am angry.  My children are suffering as I suffered as a child.  Regardless of my best efforts, they are suffering the same fate.  I haven't seen nor talked to my middle daughter in 4 months and there is no recourse atm.  Your statement of "it will never be the same" is the most fearful and heartbreaking statement in my life. 

 

My wife chose divorce not because of Christianity Bhim, you dimwit, but as RS states......we all have family of origin crap.  Christianity speaks to those who believe in it as a means to fix the problem(s).  Don't begrudge someone for moving towards morality, regardless of their path.

 

MM, Rank, I appreciate the support.  I have enough jobs/activities/interests in the air that at least I can keep busy from dark to dark.  I feel fortunate that I have enough money to be a little generous when it strikes me.