Kuroikaze Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Please understand Kuroikaze. I don't mind people questioning my beliefs one bit. That's not my complaint at all but when people tell me to shut the fuck up, call me a whore, tell me to go home, that's a different story. Shut the f... up when the rules here clearly state that Christians are welcome to post their opinions. Then change the rules if Christian opinions are not welcome. It's as simple as that. This has nothing to do with being a martyr. What's fair is fair. Ok, I'll grant you that, but too my knowledge I've never told you to "shut the fuck up" remember though you can't judge the whole lot of a group by responses of a few, and those people who say those things have a right to voice their opinion as much as you do...even more because this site was created for us. Think about it Amy, this site was created to give a home to people who have been left christianity...Many of them, myself included, have been emotionally damaged by people in the religion...as well as the theology of the religion itself. you want to claim that Jesus can heal our emotional hurt...but it comes off as offensive to us because we already tried that and just ended up MORE hurt when those prayers weren't answered. You have to understand that many of your posts sound to us like the voice of a crack dealer telling us if we take one more hit it will make everything better.... Some of the people here have left christianity very recently maybe only a few months or even weeks ago. I've been gone almost 3 years now and sometimes I STILL get irrational and angry when it comes to your religion....how much more is that going to happen to someone who's pain is still raw and new? I would never presume to say that christians don't suffer...I sure did, it was the fact that christianity didn't have answers for my suffering that made me leave. If you have suffered as you say, then use your empathy to understand the suffering WE have undergone and understand that we will lash out on occasion. Irrational or not, you can't come to this place and say the things you say and expect that it won't rub anyone the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Sin is horrible in the sight of God. Hell is a just punishment. Wow. For someone who hates sin so much, he sure does do it a lot. Murder, forced abortion, lying, decieving, torturing, advocating wife stealing, threatening etc. He is the one that deserves hell for eternity Sin is anything that goes against the Will of God. God cannot go against Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Do you think Jesus went to the cross against His Will? No. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again." John 10:18 So...are you saying that's all right to sacrifice your child only if they are willing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Sin is horrible in the sight of God. Hell is a just punishment. Wow. For someone who hates sin so much, he sure does do it a lot. Murder, forced abortion, lying, decieving, torturing, advocating wife stealing, threatening etc. He is the one that deserves hell for eternity Sin is anything that goes against the Will of God. God cannot go against Himself. God said he cannot lie. But in the bible he lies and decieves on numerous situtations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Scott you say that sin is anything that goes against the will of God... fine. How then do we discern the will of God? The Bible tells us? No issue of interpretation there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Do you think Jesus went to the cross against His Will? No. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again." John 10:18 So...are you saying that's all right to sacrifice your child only if they are willing? Jesus was God the Son. God the Father did not make Jesus do anything against His Will. Besides that, He saw the whole picture. While more people will choose not to follow Him, and consequently will go to hell, He knew there would be some people who would follow Him. He would rather die than be without you in His kingdom. That's why He gave His life for the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Okay, So...let me get thiis striaght. God sacrificed himself for himself, to change a rule, that he made in the first place? Oh yeah, that makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Scott you say that sin is anything that goes against the will of God... fine. How then do we discern the will of God? The Bible tells us? No issue of interpretation there? Yes, the Bible does tell us. While it is well and good to read the Bible ourselves, and spend alone time with God, we need somone who will disciple us. While some things in the Bible are plain as day to understand, some things are a little fuzzy, so we need a type of spiritual authority to help us in our Christiain walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 The great irony of all this, of course, is that we are being threatened with something that has not been proven to exist, at the hands of a being that has not been proven to exist. All because we refuse to believe that the abovementioned, unproven being exists. If it did actually exist, and behaved as described in the Bible, it would be unworthy of our affections by virtue of being a violent megalomaniac. If it did actually exist and was a rational, sane and compassionate being, it wouldn't give a rat's ass about our belief or disbelief. I favour the latter possibility, which is why I reject scriptures that threaten eternal punishment of any kind. And... This just in... Sin is horrible in the sight of God. Hell is a just punishment. So your god is horrified by mortal, finite "sin" but not by billions of people suffering for all eternity? Ah. This is obviously some strange new definition of "loving god" that I wasn't previously aware of. And FYI, Scott, we supposedly ate the fruit of the magic tree. According to your own fairy tale we acquired the same knowledge of morality as possessed by the gods and therefore have acquired the right to judge those gods. If we did not acquire said knowledge, "Original Sin" is negated and there is nothing to be "saved" from. Choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Spiritual authority. That is a curious phrase in my opinion. How can we tell if someone has spiritual authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Okay, So...let me get thiis striaght. God sacrificed himself for himself, to change a rule, that he made in the first place? Oh yeah, that makes sense! God the Father, sent His Son Jesus {willingly} to the cross, to pay the full penalty for our sins. By simple faith and repentance in Him, we can have eternal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Sin is horrible in the sight of God. Hell is a just punishment. Wow. For someone who hates sin so much, he sure does do it a lot. Murder, forced abortion, lying, decieving, torturing, advocating wife stealing, threatening etc. He is the one that deserves hell for eternity Sin is anything that goes against the Will of God. God cannot go against Himself. God said he cannot lie. But in the bible he lies and decieves on numerous situtations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Spiritual authority. That is a curious phrase in my opinion. How can we tell if someone has spiritual authority? We first want to make sure they are not new converts. Then we should make sure they believe the basics of Christianity {We can get to heaven by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, no works can earn a place in heaven for us, the Bible is the inerrent Word of God, etc}. I mean, even if a friend lead you to Christ, he can be the one to disciple you, it doesn't have to be a Pastor or a Priest, although we should go to church. You don't even have to have one spiritual authority, it could be a friend and the leader of your church. Just some thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Poor, confused Scott. A Johnist, a Paulist, but definitely no Xian. When he deconverts, untimately, he should not be allowed to post here, because he was never a Xian to begin with. Jesus was not a Xian either, but never mind that. "John" quotes Jesus numerous times, although this work was written over ninety years after Jesus' execution. "John" also makes up his own theology, just as "Paul" did. They just don't get it. Jesus was a Jew, concerned only with the Jews of his day, in his little provincial corner of the world. He did not want to be worshiped. His purpose was to show the local Jews how they had it wrong. His purpose was to be a guide. His failed ministry was hand-in-glove with his failed politics. He was the Ché Guevara of the Jews. Then came the revisionists, who used him shamelessly to create a religion. They didn't think they were doing anything wrong, because their purpose was the same in some aspects as Jesus' was...to retake Palestine from the Romans. Then, a couple of centuries later, the politics got really serious. Then, we got Xianity with a capital X. The Roman Empire, and the Roman Church. And now, in 2006, we have barely-literate 18-year-olds explaining it to us. Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 I just noticed something: I don't know what that verse about God being a lying spirit means, but I don't think it means what it sounds like. We can't just take things at face value, we need to study to see if it means what it sounds like. God cannot lie. That is a breaking of the ten commandments and that is sin. God cannot be evil. He cannot go against Himself. Satan went against God. That is evil in itself. And as I said, he does evil things all the time. And: Sin is anything that goes against the Will of God. God cannot go against Himself.So which is it? God wouldn't commit a sin, thus doing evil, or god can't sin, even doing that which would otherwise be considered sin, because sin is something that goes against god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Spiritual authority. That is a curious phrase in my opinion. How can we tell if someone has spiritual authority? We first want to make sure they are not new converts. Then we should make sure they believe the basics of Christianity {We can get to heaven by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, no works can earn a place in heaven for us, the Bible is the inerrent Word of God, etc}. I mean, even if a friend lead you to Christ, he can be the one to disciple you, it doesn't have to be a Pastor or a Priest, although we should go to church. You don't even have to have one spiritual authority, it could be a friend and the leader of your church. Just some thought... So let me get this straight, I have to Know the basics of christianity so that I can judge a person to be a spiritual authority so they can teach me the basics of christianity.....brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 I just noticed something: I don't know what that verse about God being a lying spirit means, but I don't think it means what it sounds like. We can't just take things at face value, we need to study to see if it means what it sounds like. God cannot lie. That is a breaking of the ten commandments and that is sin. God cannot be evil. He cannot go against Himself. Satan went against God. That is evil in itself. And as I said, he does evil things all the time. And: Sin is anything that goes against the Will of God. God cannot go against Himself.So which is it? God wouldn't commit a sin, thus doing evil, or god can't sin, even doing that which would otherwise be considered sin, because sin is something that goes against god? I've been trying to get an answer to that but to no avail. Scott's definition of sin is going against God. Well god goes against himself all the time so by Scott's definition of sin God is a sinner. But he won't admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Spiritual authority. That is a curious phrase in my opinion. How can we tell if someone has spiritual authority? We first want to make sure they are not new converts. Then we should make sure they believe the basics of Christianity {We can get to heaven by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, no works can earn a place in heaven for us, the Bible is the inerrent Word of God, etc}. I mean, even if a friend lead you to Christ, he can be the one to disciple you, it doesn't have to be a Pastor or a Priest, although we should go to church. You don't even have to have one spiritual authority, it could be a friend and the leader of your church. Just some thought... Scott, thank you for your reply. I wish that I could say that I found it more... well... authoritative. You see I am greedy for knowledge of authority. Though I cannot claim to know what "spiritual" means, and though I do not know entirely what "authority" is, I think that there may be something such as "spiritual authority." Can a Hindu have spiritual authority? I suspect so. Can a Taoist have spiritual authority? I suspect so. Can a Christian have spiritual authority. I say to you, I suspect so. I think that you are very young Scott. I think that you don't know half of what you think you know. However I hope that one day you will have spiritual authority so that you may tell us what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Poor, confused Scott. A Johnist, a Paulist, but definitely no Xian. When he deconverts, untimately, he should not be allowed to post here, because he was never a Xian to begin with. Jesus was not a Xian either, but never mind that. "John" quotes Jesus numerous times, although this work was written over ninety years after Jesus' execution. "John" also makes up his own theology, just as "Paul" did. They just don't get it. Jesus was a Jew, concerned only with the Jews of his day, in his little provincial corner of the world. He did not want to be worshiped. His purpose was to show the local Jews how they had it wrong. His purpose was to be a guide. His failed ministry was hand-in-glove with his failed politics. He was the Ché Guevara of the Jews. Then came the revisionists, who used him shamelessly to create a religion. They didn't think they were doing anything wrong, because their purpose was the same in some aspects as Jesus' was...to retake Palestine from the Romans. Then, a couple of centuries later, the politics got really serious. Then, we got Xianity with a capital X. The Roman Empire, and the Roman Church. And now, in 2006, we have barely-literate 18-year-olds explaining it to us. Glory! Ok, really...Do you hear yourself when you speak? Obviously not. Of couse Jesus wasn't a Christian {meaning a follower of Christ}. He was the Christ. And believe me, I will never deconvert. I left the Faith before out of ignorance, but I will never do it again. Jesus was God's Son, God in the flesh, and yes He wants to be worshipped. I worship Him everyday. Here are some Scriptures backing up my claims. "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20. "And these signs will accompany those who have believed; in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Mark 16:18. "I and the Father are One." John 10:30. "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28. So, Jesus taught to baptize in the name of the Trinity, which obviously included Himself. He has all aothority, period. He gave us power and authority to do many things in His name. He said He was One with the Father. When Thomas proclaimed that Jesus was Lord and God, Jesus didn't rebuke him. Not only this, but as I mentioned before, Jesus is the Judge, and He also has the power to forgive sins, which no one can do but God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Spiritual authority. That is a curious phrase in my opinion. How can we tell if someone has spiritual authority? We first want to make sure they are not new converts. Then we should make sure they believe the basics of Christianity {We can get to heaven by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, no works can earn a place in heaven for us, the Bible is the inerrent Word of God, etc}. I mean, even if a friend lead you to Christ, he can be the one to disciple you, it doesn't have to be a Pastor or a Priest, although we should go to church. You don't even have to have one spiritual authority, it could be a friend and the leader of your church. Just some thought... But Scott, by your own admission, you are a new convert. So why are you trying to pass yourself off as an authority? Especially to ex-Xians who know so much more than you and deride your every post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 I'm not sure when I said I am a new convert, but I am fairly new, although I have studied the Bible for a good bit. I know I'm no authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Sorry to bust in on the thread but I'm back from a busy weekend and noticed Scott's been busy on this thread but hasn't yet gotten around to answering my posts in the Prayer Helps No One and Is Hell Fair (or whatever) threads. Just thought I'd drop off a reminder since Scott seems to be quite busy (avoiding me that is). I'm very curious as to what your super research has turned up Scott. You were so eager to defending your position then, just like your religion, you had nothing to offer me. Say it ain't so. Show me how I'm wrong about Paul and hell. Don't leave me hanging like all the xians before. Be my messiah Scott. Anyhow, once again sorry for the intrusion... mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 I'm not sure when I said I am a new convert, but I am fairly new, although I have studied the Bible for a good bit. I know I'm no authority. I think that there is hope for you yet Scott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Jesus is the Judge, and He also has the power to forgive sins, which no one can do but God. We discussed this in another thread. Allah can remove sins as well and probably many other gods. Stop saying only your god can do it when I showed you others can as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Allah is a false god and we were not talking about how we know the Christian God is God. We were talking about how Jesus did want to be worshipped; and rightfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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