The Question That Evolutionists Can't Answer

[sandiego4me]

This question surely isn't intended to inflame.  It's just something that I can never get an answer too.  Whenever I ask it, people usually point me to an article or book.   I want anybody who believes in evolution to tell me five things about evolution that you know are true (i.e., in your own words). Honest discussion.   

[Thurisaz]

1. evolution is driven by the interaction of three things - random mutation, natural selection among those mutations, and the successful mutations being passed on to the next generation

2. -4. all three of these components exist and work, as we can easily observe in the world

5. 99.9+ % of all babblical cretinists have no fucking clue what they are talking about when they attack science

 

I'll even throw a 6th fact in.

 

6. You, in all likelihood, belong to the 99.9 % mentioned above.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

1. evolution is driven by the interaction of three things - random mutation, natural selection among those mutations, and the successful mutations being passed on to the next generation

2. -4. all three of these components exist and work, as we can easily observe in the world

5. 99.9+ % of all babblical cretinists have no fucking clue what they are talking about when they attack science

 

I'll even throw a 6th fact in.

 

6. You, in all likelihood, belong to the 99.9 % mentioned above.

 

I'll add a 7th: if the theory of evolution were somehow proven wrong and overturned, Christianity would still be false.

[owen652]

so what 5 things about Jesus are true?  

 

geez, go away.

[ExCBooster]

Frankly, though, the reason we've been pointing you to books or articles is that the sheer amount of research and testing that makes up the field is immense. Really immense. I mean, when all of life on Earth is your laboratory, there's whole peer-reviewed academic journals, and entire disciplines, and virtually all of Biology - by extension medicine, and psychology, and so on - well, it's sometimes best to find a good, decently written, popular science book to share.

 

In some ways, these "arguments" if they can even be called that are really more like a cross cultural miscommunication: in a lot of ways, we're not even on the same page, regarding what we're even discussing. It's not "five things about evolution that you know are true" evolution and natural selection are descriptions of a natural processes, and learning how we came to that understanding. Hence the book and article recommendations - people have been trying to catch you up on their point of view so that both sides can communicate honestly, and comprehend each other. Almost everybody here has been Christian, or at least read the Bible, so they understand that cultural standpoint. Clearly, it would do you, and your argument, some good to catch up on how and why most of us think differently about these things.

 

So, just take a moment, and go through a single, well put together website about it before people start listing stuff that you'll immediately discount... But if you'd rather not, PM me, I'll walk you through how science works, and how maybe a lot of this is actually culture shock: a lot of the people on this site simply don't have the same conception of what "true" even means, philosophically, that you do, and changing their point of view away from faith as a paradigm of knowledge was part of that cultural shift. Unless you're willing to understand that, everyone's just going to be talking across each other.

[3DollarBill]

In keeping with the spirit of the question I will answer it without looking up anything on any outside source.  This is purely from my own head.  We can fact-check it later if you like.

1.  Abiogenesis (the origin of life) is an entirely different subject from evolution.  Most of you christ-tards don't know this.  Big bang cosmology is an entirely different subject from evolution.  Again, most of you christ-tards don't know this.

2.  A rabbit's digestive system is in the wrong order.  It has to eat its food, shit it out half-digested, then eat it again.  You can trace the evolution of the rabbit's digestive system to understand why this is the case.  If, on the other hand, some deity created the rabbit this way, then that deity must be incredibly stupid.

3.  The Theory of Evolution predicts that humans must have a fused chromosome.  This is because our genetic ancestors have 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans have 23.  Chromosome #2 shows strong evidence of being the result of the fusion of 2 chromosomes.  (This should really count as 3 different "facts" but I'm on a roll)

4.  Chromosome fusion is so incredibly unlikely that any scientific theory which accurately predicts it is almost certainly true.

5.  You christ-tards really have it easy, as you could disprove the entire theory if you found even a SINGLE fossil which did not fall within the established evolutionary timeline.   But you never have, and you never will.

 

Satisfied?

[3DollarBill]

edit to remove double post

 

[Endemoniada]

1. Scientists don't "believe" in evolution. They accept it. Why? Because it is a discernible fact as far as modern science is concerned.

2. If it were to be proven untrue, a better theory will take it's place. (PS: It won't be creationism)

3. Evolution is simply the cumulative effect of small changes in a population over time. As organisms adapt to their environment, favored traits are passed on to new generations. This can be observed in the practice of selective breeding by farmers to get the best livestock they can, something that has been done for centuries. Over longer periods of time, greater changes will happen. While this large change cannot be observed, it can be extrapolated from the data we do have.

4. Just because evolution is a theory doesn't mean it isn't grounded in observed facts. In science, a theory is a model of the world that has been tested by multiple scientists and had it's hypothesis confirmed. And scientific theories, unlike religious beliefs, can and will change when evidence comes along disproving them.

5. Evolution is a much simpler idea than Creationism. While the biology behind it can be complex, the idea itself, that small, gradual changes in Earth's organisms over time have lead to the diversity of life that exists today, is rather simple. Creationism cannot be confirmed by observations, and requires overly complex magical thinking to justify itself. There are also many kinds of Creationists, even those who accept evolution as fact, while there is only one currently accepted theory of evolution.

[sandiego4me]

1. evolution is driven by the interaction of three things - random mutation, natural selection among those mutations, and the successful mutations being passed on to the next generation

 

 

Believe it or not, I'm not offended.  I don't take comments personally.  I'm just trying to show evolutionists that their faith in evolution exceeds a Christian's faith in God.

 

You have stated that "random mutation . . . [has] been passed onto generations."   This is just a generic buzz phrase that doesn't really say anything.  Please give me specific examples (if you can). 

[3DollarBill]

  I'm just trying to show evolutionists that their faith in evolution exceeds a Christian's faith in God.

 

 

Let's get something straight right now.  I DO NOT have "faith" in evolution.  I have evidence.  There is no evidence for the existence of god, so faith is all you are left with.  You know perfectly well that evidence is superior to faith.  If you had evidence, you would be rubbing it in my face right now.  But you don't.

[3DollarBill]

Key difference, if you're still confused...

If you were to provide me with some legit evidence that evolution is false (which you can't do), I would evaluate it and if it outweighed all the evidence that evolution is true, I would no longer believe in evolution.  Simple as that.  I would have no trouble changing my mind if I had sufficient reason to do so.

If I were to provide you with legit evidence your god doesn't exist (which I certainly CAN do), then you will rationalize your way around this evidence or, failing that, stick your fingers in your ears and sing "tra lalala la la la la la LA"

[Ravenstar]

I don't 'believe' in evolution. I have studied as much of it as I can without an advanced degree and found it to be solid, evidence based, and seriously supported from many scientific disciplines. Evolution is a fact. 

 

now.. the details?

1) fossils, thousands and thousands of fossils that all seem to be found where science predicts they will be found according to the geological record and that show a progression in species.

 

2) Genetics, especially the genetics of viruses and bacteria. They evolve very quickly and we have observed this. Evolutionary theory is what has made vaccines possible. Have you had your flu shot yet? Wonder why you need a new one every year? Without evolutionary biology we would never have been able to cure smallpox and other horrid diseases.

 

HIV is a prime example of a virus that evolves, rapidly... to the point where it jumped species and is a different virus now.

 

3) Ring species

 

4) hip bones in whales (and snakes), appendices in humans, wisdom teeth.

 

5) The incredible amount of knowledge about chemical processes and how biology is just chemical (okay bio-chemical) processes.

 

6) The discovery on asteroids and comets and meteorites of amino acids, the 'building blocks' of life. It's becoming obvious that these elements are common in the universe.

 

7) Homo Neandertalis and homo floriensis... obviously human - but not like us. The Neanderthal genome has been mapped, they were not homo sapien sapiens, but close cousins. They lived until about 40,000 years ago, used tools and covered themselves, their flint work was very impressive and there is evidence they buried their dead.

 

8) The Platypus and Ednichadae, basically they are mammals, marsupials actually who lay eggs, with reptilian features. They are very primitive and have been in the fossil record for a one long time as well.

 

9) Dinosaurs, who ruled the earth for hundreds of millions of years, some of whom evolved into modern birds. The majority died out 65 million years ago. Their fossils are also found exactly where evolution and archeo-geology predicts.

 

10) Horse evolution is a well-established line.

 

11) Symbiotic relationships. Bees and flowering plants have evolved together to be mutually beneficial...wasps and figs,  humans and bacteria. 80% of our own bodies are not even genetically ours but belong to many kinds of bacteria that live in symbiosis with us. We could not survive without them.

 

12) We share 96% of our genetic code with chimpanzees, and 18% with bananas. We all, every life form, came from the same root organisms (except for archea [sp?] a small branch of micro-organisms)

 

13) Genetic tracing shows the entire human race came out of Africa..(not the middle east), I believe by tracing mitichondrial DNA. (only passed from the mother) between 2 million years ago and 500,000, in waves.

 

14) New species of plants have been observed to evolve in our own time. It's an observable and testable fact. (source: talk origins.org)

 

15) We get closer all the time to the answer of how chemical processes on the early earth became self-replicating (one of the criteria for life) The science is complicated, and there are a few hypotheses... but in a nutshell for the layman it goes like this... certain chemical bond to form amino acids, those acids can further form and combine under the right conditions to create proteins, and certain chemicals (gels) can also combine or attach to each other to encircle those proteins (the clay theory is interesting) and give those proteins a protected environment to again chemically produce RNA, or maybe a rudimentary form of DNA, forming the first very simple cells. It is thought that the first life was microbial.. and microbes are tough little suckers... then to algae's. We know that bacteria and algae's were the dominant form of life on earth for probably about a billion or 2 years before more complex forms evolved. Blue Algae's are responsible for our oxygen atmosphere. However.. being honest we do not yet have a THEORY of abiogenesis, it's still an unanswered question.

 

16) Animal husbandry... though human directed, has about 7000 years of evidence that animals can be changed drastically through evolution (human selection, breeding, environmental pressure, etc..)

 

However I am not a biologist, and this is just a tiny fraction of some of the things about it I understand...and I didn't even mention geology and palaeontology, and paleo-archaeaology, and biochemistry, physics, and cosmology and the myriad different disciplines that have found that ALL their evidence fits together and supports one another. A biologist would be able to explain a lot more, and probably a lot better.

 

Here's another tidbit. Scientists LOVE to prove each other wrong... it means a Nobel prize for them or at the least a highly respected publication, and they spend a lot of time checking and double checking other scientists work and putting it through rigorous criticism and investigation of methodology - if it doesn't pass very stringent protocols it's pretty much dismissed - or at least formally challenged. I say this because I find a lot of laymen really don't understand how the scientific method and peer-review works. LOTS of checks and balances, and you'd better be able to back up your assertions with EVIDENCE and repeatable experiments. 

 

Now the caveat: This has nothing to do with god. Evolution is a fact. and...?

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

Key difference, if you're still confused...

 

If you were to provide me with some legit evidence that evolution is false (which you can't do), I would evaluate it and if it outweighed all the evidence that evolution is true, I would no longer believe in evolution.  Simple as that.  I would have no trouble changing my mind if I had sufficient reason to do so.

 

If I were to provide you with legit evidence your god doesn't exist (which I certainly CAN do), then you will rationalize your way around this evidence or, failing that, stick your fingers in your ears and sing "tra lalala la la la la la LA"

You might also want to point out that in order to prove a theory false you have to prove what is already proven in the theory AND add to it, not detract from it. This concept usually throws who reject science off a bit. A theory has been tested time and again to the point, within reason and data, it is predominantly accepted as true. So, it isn't about proving evolution is false or wrong. Look at what Einstein did with Newton's laws of gravity.

We are talking theories here, not hypothesis.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

My five reasons:

 

1. Genetic Code, it's universal. Every cell on Earth can translate it. This means more than likely (remember this a theory, so by best evidence we have so far), life on earth originated from a common ancestor. You can call it Adam and Eve, but reality is there were not two sexes in the beginning like religious texts claim. And there is fossil records of this as well.

 

2. Embryonic similarities. There is a reason why a pig, elephant, and human look identical during the chordate stage of development in the womb. Also, fun fact: Did you know what all of us have in common with pigs, cows, dogs, monkeys, etc? We all form gills. Then they reform to ears.

 

3. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics. This has PROVEN genetic mutation being passed along. These colonies of bacteria can only build resistance by evolving. This isn't "micro adaptation", it's evolution. And it's in the soup, you just need to see it. Amazing stuff.

 

4. Fossils - The older the rocks, the simpler the life forms found, which helps us backtrack current forms of life to early types of life.

 

5. We have 3rd eyelids. I say no more.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

 

Here's another tidbit. Scientists LOVE to prove each other wrong... it means a Nobel prize for them or at the least a highly respected publication, and they spend a lot of time checking and double checking other scientists work and putting it through rigorous criticism and investigation of methodology - if it doesn't pass very stringent protocols it's pretty much dismissed - or at least formally challenged. I say this because I find a lot of laymen really don't understand how the scientific method and peer-review works. LOTS of checks and balances, and you'd better be able to back up your assertions with EVIDENCE and repeatable experiments. 

 

 

I particularly LIKE this feature about science. There is someone out there looking to take you dooowwwwnnn brah! Glory!

[RaLeah]

Look, you don't have to take anyone's "word for it" -- all the evidence is out there. So look at it. Don't be lazy. See it first-hand. 

 

Go to a museum and look at fossils. Educate yourself. It isn't hard. Go see them. Learn about geological layers and look at fossils. You can see how the horse's hoof evolved and horses got bigger over time. You can observe primate skeletons too, how they evolved. You can look at trilobites. You can look at just basic evidence. It's all out there, easy to see, unless you refuse to look for yourself. 

 

Anything we can TELL you is hearsay. So just go look at it yourself. It's so easy to do. As the commercial says, Even a cave man could do it. 

 

Go look at it. Then come back here and ask us questions. Until then, it's sort of like coming here and asking us to describe a tomato plant and why we believe they grow on vines instead of trees, because all your friends and family are sure they grow on trees. Go to a farm and see a tomato plant and get the truth yourself. Same with evolution. Go seek the truth for yourself, and you'll find it. It's that easy, but that hard, because it actually takes some effort. Go see it. Watch Nova programs, look it up on YouTube, or order a book if you're too lazy to go to a museum and look at the bones yourself.

[RaLeah]

By the way, it isn't JUST the fossil record testifying for evolution, it's also: 

 

DNA. (This has gotten very accurate, so much so we can use it for crime scenes and court cases, and yet many people don't understand DNA that much. Study DNA, and what we share with other primates, and you'll see.)

 

Cave formations (stalagmites take a longer time to form than the Bible says the age of the earth is. Why would God trick you about how old something is deep under the earth that we may never find or see?)

 

Carbon dating. (I know, I grew up in a public school that tried to tell us it was a lie, because... well, it had to be wrong, so there. But learn about it, and you soon see that it's pretty awesomely accurate, and why it's accurate.) 

 

Geographic layers. 

 

The grand canyon, glaciers, continental drift and formation. I mean... google this. Watch stuff on YouTube. When you just come here and ask someone else to please think and research for you, and then you'll decide whether or not to trust hearsay instead of direct evidence yourself... it's just  lazy thinking. 

 

Go. Study it yourself. It's all out there, published, photographed, catalogued, scientific expert interviews, documentaries... go look at it.  

[mymistake]

 

1. evolution is driven by the interaction of three things - random mutation, natural selection among those mutations, and the successful mutations being passed on to the next generation

 

 

Believe it or not, I'm not offended.  I don't take comments personally.  I'm just trying to show evolutionists that their faith in evolution exceeds a Christian's faith in God.

 

You have stated that "random mutation . . . [has] been passed onto generations."   This is just a generic buzz phrase that doesn't really say anything.  Please give me specific examples (if you can). 

 

 

You are trying to do something that is impossible.  Scientists have zero faith in evolution.  Zero faith does not exceed a Christian's faith in God.  You have been brainwashed by Christians.

 

What Thurisaz said was not generic buzz phrase.  If you think that then you do not understand evolution.  This does not surprise me because most of evolution's religious opponents do not understand the science.

 

 

You want specific examples?  A type of infectious bacteria has a few members that are immune to penicillin.  This immunity was caused by a random variation in the coding.  (RNA if I remember correctly)  Then humans add a new environmental condition that kills every flu bacteria cell that doesn't have this immunity.  Presto natural selection happens.  A new virus emerges that has this immunity in it's basic identity.  As that bacteria multiplies new coding variations happen.  One of those variations grants immunity to sulfa.  Then the humans use sulfa drugs to fight the penicillin resistant bacteria strain.  Presto natural selection creates a new species of flu bug that resists penicillin and sulfa.  

 

That is how our hospitals are creating disease resistant bacteria right now.  It's evolution happening right in front of us.

 

Want another?  Modern dog breeds all came from wild dogs.  Cat breeds all came from a common stock.  It's evolution in action.  Am I up to 5 now?

 

How about another?  Human skin tone is evolution.  Populations living close to the equator have skin optimized for protection against the sun.  Populations living far from the equator developed skin tone optimized for vitamin K production.

 

Sherpas can haul luggage up the side of a mountain for rich Western "mountain climbers" because Sherpas evolved a superior method of getting oxygen.

 

Some people can't digest milk because digesting milk is an ability humans evolved.

 

 

Edit:

Maybe this thread should be called "The Question That Evolutionist Can Answer".

 

(Also replaced virus with bacteria.  Don't know what I was thinking.)

[midniterider]

This question surely isn't intended to inflame.  It's just something that I can never get an answer too.  Whenever I ask it, people usually point me to an article or book.   I want anybody who believes in evolution to tell me five things about evolution that you know are true (i.e., in your own words). Honest discussion.   

 

I like your 7-11 avatar.

[mydisplayname]

Believe it or not, I'm not offended.  I don't take comments personally.  I'm just trying to show evolutionists that their faith in evolution exceeds a Christian's faith in God.

 

 

Normally I don't respond to evolution debates as I don't know enough about it, but let's look at your holy book to define faith. (Hebrews 11:1) Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. - Basically believing without proof.

 

Someone smarter than me, Jeff Schweitzer, says this  - When you arrive at an “answer” to a religious question, there’s no way of knowing whether you’re right or wrong.  Science has such ways, and if it didn’t we wouldn’t ever learn anything.

 

You received some very detailed answers from everyone else, obviously didn't read it and went on to call evolution faith simply to inflame. If that is being christian, then I'm out.

[miekko]

 

1. evolution is driven by the interaction of three things - random mutation, natural selection among those mutations, and the successful mutations being passed on to the next generation

 

 

Believe it or not, I'm not offended.  I don't take comments personally.  I'm just trying to show evolutionists that their faith in evolution exceeds a Christian's faith in God.

 

You have stated that "random mutation . . . [has] been passed onto generations."   This is just a generic buzz phrase that doesn't really say anything.  Please give me specific examples (if you can). 

 

One specific example: there exist human populations that can digest lactose even as adults. Most humans lack this ability.

 

The distribution of the ability to digest lactose suggests it has originated in some small populations in prehistoric times and spread from these ancestors. This is much more likely than, say, the opposite situation where at some point all humans had it, and ever since it's been lost in most of humankind. Another mutation that apparently has occurred - but still hasn't been around long enough to actually spread - is an increase in the acuity of female color perception. Whether this mutation will survive in part depends on random chance, in part on whether it actually is beneficial - maybe it taxes the brain more than usual color perception, maybe it requires more nutrition to work, maybe it causes some problems in the eye - it should be obvious that for this kind of mutation, it's almost impossible to know to what extent they're beneficial or not until several generations have passed.

[Vigile]

I have a question for the OP.  Now that you've gotten answers to the question 'evolutionists can't answer' are you going to go to another forum (or back to your church friends) and disingenuously level the same claim while ignoring the fact that people did in fact provide you answers? 

[RankStranger]

This question surely isn't intended to inflame.  It's just something that I can never get an answer too.  Whenever I ask it, people usually point me to an article or book.   I want anybody who believes in evolution to tell me five things about evolution that you know are true (i.e., in your own words). Honest discussion.   

 

Why five?

 

Why not two?  Or twenty?

[kolaida]

I have a question for the OP.  Now that you've gotten answers to the question 'evolutionists can't answer' are you going to go to another forum (or back to your church friends) and disingenuously level the same claim while ignoring the fact that people did in fact provide you answers? 

 

I don't think he ever asked "the" question. Maybe he just wanted to see what all the answers were going to be and then form a question based on the information we gave him? 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The Theory of Evolution has more evidence to support it than any other scientific theory including the Theory of Gravity and the Theory of Relativity.  Y'all stop feeding this troll.  If he wanted to know more about evolution he'd do a simple google search himself.  He doesn't; he's already stated that he wants to demonstrate that "belief" in evolution requires "faith".  Anybody capable of making such a statement is also too close-minded to be swayed by proof and evidence.