If Jesus Is God

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

 

Rape is sanctioned by the Bible.

 

Rape is a fact of war.  As long as mankind has taken up arms to conquer, there has been loot, pillage and rape.  The people of God however are to be different.  The Torah acknowledges the soldiers are likely to be tempted and take women captive, but it forbids the impulse.  She is to be granted the dignity of mourning her parents.  She is to be granted the honor of marriage, not be taken forcibly and be given the status of a wife.  She cannot be treated like a slave, nor can she be sold.  Women are protected against the savagery of men.  He demands a higher standard of his people. 

 

What other option did women have if their husbands were killed in war and they had no means of survival.  God gave even captured people in war rights and dignity, not slavery and rape.

 

 

 

Right right.  God command you to slaughter a lamb and pour the blood everywhere and you have to do it or you DIE!   But God has to let Israeli troops rape the littler girls of conquered nations because rape is a fact of war.  Who is God to command His people or to give them rules?

 

I just quoted to you that she is to be taken.  Deuteronomy 21 does not give the captive girls a choice.  If a solder sees her and wants her he takes her.  That is rape.  He is told he cannot sell her because she is damaged goods.  It wouldn't be fair to the buyer because the solder took the captive's virginity.  These rules are about how men controlled women.  And yes, denying women any way to earn a living without being owned by a man was also part of that control.

 

Your empty denials are not going to fool anybody.  The Old Testament was barbaric.  Barbarians created Yahweh in their own image.

 

No I pointed out this false idea rape was sanctioned from Deuteronomy 22 that I didn't even post here first. 

 

So what would you rather have, defeating a nation and letting the women and children left to die, or do you take them into your homes and take them as one of your own?  The Torah gave rights to the poor, disenfranchised, vulnerable, handicapped, slaves, orphans, widows and all those segments of society that back then, and even now nobody really gives a two hoots about.  Well, sorry, my God tells me to love all equally.  Even those who have name called and posted other derogatory comments about me.  But I guess that is just the nature of being in the Lions Den isn't it?

 

 

If you can manage to love all equally, despite the things that they may or may not say to you, then I'd say you're morality is superior to that of your own god. If I told your god to fuck off and called him names, he'd throw me into a lake of fire and leave me there to burn because he has a massive ego and a heart of glass. Simply picking up sticks on a day that is to be spent making him happy will send him into a rage, so it is no surprise.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rape is sanctioned by the Bible.

 

Rape is a fact of war.  As long as mankind has taken up arms to conquer, there has been loot, pillage and rape.  The people of God however are to be different.  The Torah acknowledges the soldiers are likely to be tempted and take women captive, but it forbids the impulse.  She is to be granted the dignity of mourning her parents.  She is to be granted the honor of marriage, not be taken forcibly and be given the status of a wife.  She cannot be treated like a slave, nor can she be sold.  Women are protected against the savagery of men.  He demands a higher standard of his people. 

 

What other option did women have if their husbands were killed in war and they had no means of survival.  God gave even captured people in war rights and dignity, not slavery and rape.

 

 

 

Right right.  God command you to slaughter a lamb and pour the blood everywhere and you have to do it or you DIE!   But God has to let Israeli troops rape the littler girls of conquered nations because rape is a fact of war.  Who is God to command His people or to give them rules?

 

I just quoted to you that she is to be taken.  Deuteronomy 21 does not give the captive girls a choice.  If a solder sees her and wants her he takes her.  That is rape.  He is told he cannot sell her because she is damaged goods.  It wouldn't be fair to the buyer because the solder took the captive's virginity.  These rules are about how men controlled women.  And yes, denying women any way to earn a living without being owned by a man was also part of that control.

 

Your empty denials are not going to fool anybody.  The Old Testament was barbaric.  Barbarians created Yahweh in their own image.

 

No I pointed out this false idea rape was sanctioned from Deuteronomy 22 that I didn't even post here first. 

 

So what would you rather have, defeating a nation and letting the women and children left to die, or do you take them into your homes and take them as one of your own?  The Torah gave rights to the poor, disenfranchised, vulnerable, handicapped, slaves, orphans, widows and all those segments of society that back then, and even now nobody really gives a two hoots about.  Well, sorry, my God tells me to love all equally.  Even those who have name called and posted other derogatory comments about me.  But I guess that is just the nature of being in the Lions Den isn't it?

 

 

If you can manage to love all equally, despite the things that they may or may not say to you, then I'd say you're morality is superior to that of your own god. If I told your god to fuck off and called him names, he'd throw me into a lake of fire and leave me there to burn because he has a massive ego and a heart of glass. Simply picking up sticks on a day that is to be spent making him happy will send him into a rage.

 

God is love.  Old cliche, I know.  But it is true.

 

 

I'm not convinced.

[centauri]

 

 

 

 

 

God's justice system demands a life for a life.  Adam and Eve were cursed to go back to the ground they came from.  We are dead to our sins.  The reason for all the OT sacrifices was to point us to that fact.  Because we deserved to die for our sin, an innocent little animal dies in our place.  We are all under the condemnation of death because of our sins.  We all have to face the firing squad, but Jesus pushed us out of the way and said I will die in your place instead.  A perfect sacrifice could only redeem us from the penalty of death, and no animal could do that.  That is why Jesus laid his life down willingly.

 

Yes that was preaching.

Animal sin sacrifices in the OT were for unintentional sins.

Sin sacrifices weren't limited to animals but also included things like fine flour.

Intentional sins can be forgiven without an animal sin sacrifice.

The character "Jesus" did not conform to any of the regulations for an animal sin sacrifice, which yields his death as useless for atonement of sin.

 

The unintentional sin is not a good translation, it literally means unacceptable behaviour.

 

The word "unintentional" is used by many Bible translations.

It means done in ignorance or by mistake.

Sin committed in ignorance requires a sin offering.

The difference in treatment of unintentional sin and intentional sin is clearly outlined in Deut 15.

 

In short, sin sacrifices for this classification of sin was for an already redeemed people who made a "mistake."  God could only offer forgiveness for a people, or person redeemed to reconcile the relationship back between the person and the Creator.  The sin of the high hand, or what most refer to as intentional sin always required one to teshuvah or turn back from their ways.

Which means Jesus is not a valid sin sacrifice for unintentional sins, nor can he vicariously atone for intentional sins.

 

God offers forgiveness only to those He has already redeemed. There was no forgiveness extended to the Egyptians, Philistines, Canaanites, Assyrians, Babylonians, or Persians.

Only those who were constituted as God’s covenant people were in a place to receive God’s forgiveness.

God forgave the city of Nineveh.

Are you suggesting they were God's covenant people prior to being forgiven?

 

This is why Paul is concerned that the Gentiles realize they have been “brought near” to the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12-14). Having been redeemed through payment of the required price, those who constitute God’s family have forgiveness extended to them. God is able to forgive them because His justice has been satisfied in the price of their redemption. He remains righteous even though He declares the sinner righteous: He is “just and the justifier” of those who believe in Yeshua (Rom. 3:26).

There is no atonement or redemption attained through an invalid sacrifice.

Jesus met none of the requirements for such a sacrifice.

The regulations are laid down in Lev 4.

 

Like I said, unintentional is not a good translation.  But, whatever.  The sin of the high hand, or intentional sins were those committed by a redeemed person of which there was no sacrifice that could bring one back into reconciliation with God.  The only means to regain covenant status was to repent and go back from where they came from.  In Hebrew, it literally means to turn around.  Only then could reconciliation occur.

 

Well, that eliminates Jesus from the equation.

He wasn't a valid animal sin sacrifice for unintentional sin and he didn't repent for the intentional sins of others.

 

It appears as though Nineveh repents, and that as a result, they are forgiven and the judgment of God is averted. “When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it” (Jonah 3:10). Nowhere, however, does it say that God forgave them, He simply withheld the calamity or destruction that their evil deeds deserved. God can do that!

In other words, God didn't forgive them, he just didn't punish them.

If the people of Nineveh averted punishment by pleasing God and doing what he wanted, that doesn't qualify for genuine forgiveness on the part of God.

That's an interesting take on forgiveness because it breaks it down into superior and inferior pardons on the part of God.

 

If He were to always dispense His judgment whenever evil is committed, who would remain? Indeed, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). History tells us, however, that Nineveh, and the Assyrian nation which she represented, did not experience genuine repentance. Not more than two generations later, God would bring upon Assyria the destruction that their evil deeds demanded (Nahum 2:10-14fact, the primary message of the book of Jonah is not the repentance of the Ninevites but the sovereignty of God Who is able to accomplish His purposes in spite of a disobedient prophet.

So God can forgive as he sees fit, with no need for Jesus.

[WarriorPoet]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Stop with the arguments about translation.  If your god is real and as powerful as you would have us believe, then he would be able to protect his holy word from being corrupted by mistranslation, whether accidental or deliberate. 

 

In Genesis, GOD confused the languages of mankind.  This problem of translation is a result of HIS actions.  Why is he not making sure that his one way of revealing himself to us stays pure?  Is mankind more powerful than god?  Or is the devil?  Are we really able to thwart his will with our puny human efforts?  If not, then how could this happen.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This thread is going no where.  You can quote scripture and verse all day long and there are those who are inclined to debate you point by point.  However, you are not going to change our minds unless you provide definitive proof of the divinity of jesus (which is what the original post speaks to), and the truth of the bible you quote.  Unless you can provide said evidence, please stop wasting your time here. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying give Christianity a break.  This is an ex-christian site.  So some of what ex-christians have been taught has been untruthful.  Thought you might like to know I agree with some things pointed out here by ex-christians.

 

 

Some of what Christians have taught us was untruthful.  Unfortunately you are following the same religious path that caused so many problems.  If you want to find truth follow science.  Let "I don't know" be your starting point and follow evidence wherever it leads.  This is the only way humans can find truth.

 

 

 

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I pray scientists look into the deepest recesses of space and into the tiniest of the tiniest of atoms.  There they will find God.  I am trying to study up on agri-bio linguistics.  Should be interesting when I find the time.  In the mean time, I like the science in the bible.

 

1. Genesis 1:12

   The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
2. Genesis 1:21
   God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
3. Genesis 1:24
   Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.
4. Genesis 1:25
   God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

I look outside and I see apple trees making more apple trees, salmon making more salmon, monkeys making other monkeys, etc, etc.  So I tend to believe God who was there and told us how he did it as evidence, versus a bunch of evolutionary scientists who admit they all were not there billions and billions of years ago, and tell us how the world was created with no evidence.

 

 

Ummmm.... how about looking a bit more deeply into cosmology, rather than agri-bio linguistics, Funguyrye?

 

Also, you might like to read up on the remit of science and what it can and cannot do. 

God (or anything supernatural) will not, has not been and cannot be found by scientists - because it's not within the remit of science to attribute anything it can investigate to a supernatural cause.  Science, by definition, only investigates natural phenomenon.  When something has no naturalistic explanation, the only answer a scientist can give is that they don't know.  Anything more than that means stepping outside of science.

 

But don't take all this from me... I'm not a scientist.

However, the RedNeckedProfessor is.  I'm sure he can explain what science does and what it cannot or must not do.

 

Going back to cosmology...

In the light of the current data, Genesis 1:1 and anything that follows, cannot be linked to what has been observed.  Therefore, Yahweh cannot be the causal agent responsible for the universe.

 

I recommend these links to you.

 

http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=32024

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/science/space/planck-satellite-shows-image-of-infant-universe.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.sciops.esa.int/index.php?project=PLANCK&page=Planck_Published_Papers

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_inflation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_principle

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

I believe science and religion don't have to be opposed to one another.  I think they can compliment each other greatly.

 

There are a number of very interesting parallels between the Hebrew alphabet and genetics.

Human genetics contain 22 building blocks called amino acids, which  correspond to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. The Hebrew alphabet is divided into 3 categories: 3 mothers, 7 doubles and 12 elementals. The amino acids are likewise divided into the same subdivision of 3,7, and 12. Utilizing simple gematria it is not difficult to assign each Hebrew letter with the corresponding amino acid.

 

Further info at: http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/tag/22-amino-acids-hebrew-alphabet/

 

 

 

 

Funguyrye,

 

If you take the time to read, digest and understand what I've written and also apply yourself to the content of the links, you'll see that the cosmological data CANNOT be reconciled with the Hebrew scriptures.  They are oil and water.  They do not mix.  I can demonstrate this, should the need arise.  Your belief that cosmology and your religion are complimentary remains an assertion on your part.  Unless, of course, you can demonstrate from the cosmological information I've given you that they are complementary?

 

Simply batting the ball back to me and citing a link about the Hebrew alphabet and genetics does nothing to square the basic tenets of your religion with the latest cosmological data and show the asserted complimentarity.  The only way ahead for you (should you wish to show how cosmology and your religion compliment each other) is to apply yourself to the task of understanding enough of the cosmological science to demonstrate said complimentarity.  I'm an amateur astronomer who never made it to college, not an astrophysicist or cosmologist - so, if I can grasp the basics of this stuff, so can you.  Therefore... your mission (should you decide to accept it ) ...is as follows.

 

1.

Using only cosmology, I can demonstrate that the Hebrew scriptures are wrong about our origin.

2.

You've asserted that science and religion compliment each other greatly.

3.

Therefore, it falls to you to show this complimentarity in the relevant branch of science - cosmology.  Not genetics.  Nor linguistics.  Nor taxonomy, geology, endocrinology, neurology or meteorology. Only cosmology.  That is where the heart of the issue lies.

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Cosmology!

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I look forward to your response. Thanks,

 

BAA.

[centauri]

God gave even captured people in war rights and dignity, not slavery and rape.

This passage indicates otherwise:

 

Deut 20:10-16(NIV)

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.

If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.

As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

 

Some people were given the ultimatum of surrender to become slaves or be either killed or used as plunder.

Other nations were to be exterminated.

God's Temple was built by slaves.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

You can be an ex-christian and still believe in Jesus.  Some people take serious objections to being called a christian, even though they believe in Jesus.  Do you reject Christianity?  I can't defend that.  The Christian church has strayed very far from its Jewish roots.  Jesus did not come to this earth to begin a new movement called Christianity.  Christianity arose as a result of separating themselves from their Jewish roots.  Do we share the same message of Jesus dying for us?  Yes.  But after that, is a different story.  In the process, Christianity has lost a bunch of stuff from their roots. 

 

So is it Jesus you have an issue with?  Or is it Christianity?

 

 

There isn't much difference between someone who reads the bible and believes in Jesus and someone who calls their self a Christian, cuz well, Christians do the same things and act the same way as the Jesus believers. The other silly thing I hear is "it's not a religion, it's a relationship." Calling it something else doesn't make it something else. You're just making euphemisms.

 

I bet there are some 'progressive' Muslims out there that don't want to be called Muslims, but followers of Allah or Mohammed. And they still read the Koran and do all the same shit that every other Muslim does...but they are 'different' .... they are the chosen few. :-)

 

Anyway, I did the Jesus thing. It was fun at first, but then it sucked later on. I got tired of thinking up Jesus' half of the dialogue. Now, if I decide to split off a chunk of my personality again and have a dialogue with it, it sure as hell won't be Jesus. It will be a cute little piece of ass with no restrictive sexual rules. :-)

 

Euphemisms or not, yes there is still only Jesus or Yeshua at the head.  Until I accepted Jesus and had a born again experience, meaning being born of the Spirit, it changed the way I wanted to act, think and live out my life.  I want to do good now, I want to give of my time to help others.  I want to tell everyone the hope that lives within me and the coming King.  That should be a testimony for all believers. 

 

I am sorry the Jesus thing sucked for you. 

 

 

I've always wanted to do good. I enjoy helping others too. So I do good things for people. Why do I need Jesus for this?

[sdelsolray]

But it has been found that what they presented as one species being only present in that time, they also have found fossils in another area of time where it was supposed to of "evolved". So what you have are amoebas being found at the top, and apes being found at the bottom of the geologic columns. 

 

...

 

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

 

...

With humans being found in the so called Devonian age, and reptiles being found in the so called Pleistocene age which the geologic columns sid where humans and reptiles shouldn't have been in the first place.

 

 

 

Again, just not in any way you can demonstrate.

 

Spending all your scientific study time on creationist whore websites is not good for your intellectual health.

 

I note that you avoided my discussion of your use, actually misuse, of the word evidence.  Why am I not surprised?

 

[Fernweh]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Stop with the arguments about translation.  If your god is real and as powerful as you would have us believe, then he would be able to protect his holy word from being corrupted by mistranslation, whether accidental or deliberate. 

 

In Genesis, GOD confused the languages of mankind.  This problem of translation is a result of HIS actions.  Why is he not making sure that his one way of revealing himself to us stays pure?  Is mankind more powerful than god?  Or is the devil?  Are we really able to thwart his will with our puny human efforts?  If not, then how could this happen.

 

+1. It appears the only way to keep a rational mind from misunderstanding the creator of the Universe is to be fluent in Hebrew and Greek.

 

Edit to add: I'm currently reading the English version of Das Boot; a book originally penned in German. I know enough Deutsche to sound like an idiot to any native German speaking person. Anyway, there are a few places where something was obviously lost in translation, or just doesn't sound right in English, but overall I get the point of the story loud and clear. Theologies and apologetics can be built around the loose translation of scriptures but the overall message is there for anyone to see. Rape is both actively and tacitly sanctioned in the Bible, right along with slave ownership, genocide, misogyny, human sacrifice, and many other atrocities. But God is Love. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

This thread is going no where.  You can quote scripture and verse all day long and there are those who are inclined to debate you point by point.  However, you are not going to change our minds unless you provide definitive proof of the divinity of jesus (which is what the original post speaks to), and the truth of the bible you quote.  Unless you can provide said evidence, please stop wasting your time here. 

Sorry.  I got off on a tangent and didn't want to stop.  On topic now. 

 

I already discussed the genealogy.  Wanna go with the fig tree?

 

The fig tree was a symbol of Israel.  Israel was about to go into exile following the destruction on the temple due to their unfaithfulness.  It was propecied in Deuteronomy 29 that Israel would bring about the curses of the covenant upon themselves, and this could be seen as a fulfill ment of that scripture. 

 

God’s faithfulness is also demonstrated in the nation Israel, even in Israel’s unfaithfulness. After 2,000 years, in 1948, the fig tree that was cursed was revived to life.  “When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh”  (Matthew 24:32)

 

God’s calling is irrevocable. Israel is destined to be head of the nations. The rejection of the Messiah only postponed this calling, it did not cancel it.  There is no better way to understand and to cultivate God’s faithfulness than to study His dealings and promises to the nation of Israel.

 

 

Okay, you've demonstrated your knowledge of the scripture and your ability to decide which scriptures are literal and which are metaphorical.  You've even demonstrated your willingness to believe that your holy book somehow affects the events that take place in the real world.  However, I asked you to demonstrate the divinity of jesus and the truth of the bible.  I don't need scripture references quoted; I already know them.  They do not impress me.  If you wish to impress me, please provide at least a logical argument in support of the divinity of jesus without using the bible (unless you can also provide evidence as its validity).

[midniterider]

 

 

 

 

First point about Israel and the Jews rejecting Jesus being prophecied:

 

"The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One,

   To Him whom man despises,

   To Him whom the nation abhors."

   (Isaiah 49:7)

 

 

 

It doesn't say 

"To Yeshua son of Mary whom man despises,

To Yeshua son of Mary whom the nation abhors."

 

It uses vague wording that could be anybody, anybody at all.  And a prophesy that could mean anything isn't a prophesy.

Just a question then?  How is Jesus then depicted around the world?  Is he generally accepted, or rejected?  Pretty good prophec of oneself isn't it?

 

  "He is despised and rejected by men,

     A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief."

     (Isaiah 53:3)

 

Psalm 118:22; Psalm 69:8; 31:11; 88:8,18; Job 19:13; John 1:11; 7:3,5

 

 

I don't know about around the world, but in the USA there is a Jesus church on every other street corner.

[Realist]

Salvation experience is an amazing thing.  Hence the term, born again.  Yes there are many people out there who don't believe in God, yet do wonderful things for their communities and so on.  Against the stark backdrop of our sinfulness and God's holiness, we need a saviour.  Yes I was missing something, it was God's love and forgiveness.  I did nothing to earn it, yet he still poured it out to me as he will do for all mankind that believe.  That is the truth.

 

 

As far as when Jesus will return.  He will return on the Feast of Trumpets.  That has been lost for centuries as well.  Don't know the year, but gauging by world events, something big is happening.  But before that, much stuff must still happen.  One of those being the temple having to be rebuilt and The Two Witnesses coming and preaching a return back to the Torah of God.  In the meantime, just get used to tsunamai's, earthquakes, volcanoes, new islands being formed, and other calamities that are now becoming a regularity.

 

Your salvation "experience" is NOTHING MORE than brain induced! FACT! Besides what neuroscience has found, I can actually even prove that from my own personal experience!

FACT: I know a born again christian who suffered a massive head injury. Does he still have these same experiences and share them with all? NO. His god has deserted him!

FACT: I also know an old life long born again christian woman who HOUNDED all with her belief in god ... she developed Alzheimers. Her ability to spread the "word" has now strangely disappeared, much to the delight of her heathen son!

 

Your belief and god would disappear JUST as quickly with a massive brain injury!

 

Let's get a little "fact" on your misinformation of current world events!

 

Earthquakes are NOT increasing! This is christian propaganda. 

Monitoring of smaller earthquakes maybe is, but this is only because we now have means to record them which were not available in past centuries.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/12/19/earthquakes-not-getting-more-common-study-says/

 

http://www.bible.ca/pre-earthquakes-history-data.htm

 

Let's just put your 2nd coming back into the the fairy book where it belongs! Go read Matthew 24 again .. properly! It even tells you that this has already happened! Oh ... never mind ... you are happy living your myth!

[Storm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rape is sanctioned by the Bible.

 

Rape is a fact of war.  As long as mankind has taken up arms to conquer, there has been loot, pillage and rape.  The people of God however are to be different.  The Torah acknowledges the soldiers are likely to be tempted and take women captive, but it forbids the impulse.  She is to be granted the dignity of mourning her parents.  She is to be granted the honor of marriage, not be taken forcibly and be given the status of a wife.  She cannot be treated like a slave, nor can she be sold.  Women are protected against the savagery of men.  He demands a higher standard of his people. 

 

What other option did women have if their husbands were killed in war and they had no means of survival.  God gave even captured people in war rights and dignity, not slavery and rape.

 

 

 

Right right.  God command you to slaughter a lamb and pour the blood everywhere and you have to do it or you DIE!   But God has to let Israeli troops rape the littler girls of conquered nations because rape is a fact of war.  Who is God to command His people or to give them rules?

 

I just quoted to you that she is to be taken.  Deuteronomy 21 does not give the captive girls a choice.  If a solder sees her and wants her he takes her.  That is rape.  He is told he cannot sell her because she is damaged goods.  It wouldn't be fair to the buyer because the solder took the captive's virginity.  These rules are about how men controlled women.  And yes, denying women any way to earn a living without being owned by a man was also part of that control.

 

Your empty denials are not going to fool anybody.  The Old Testament was barbaric.  Barbarians created Yahweh in their own image.

 

No I pointed out this false idea rape was sanctioned from Deuteronomy 22 that I didn't even post here first. 

 

So what would you rather have, defeating a nation and letting the women and children left to die, or do you take them into your homes and take them as one of your own?  The Torah gave rights to the poor, disenfranchised, vulnerable, handicapped, slaves, orphans, widows and all those segments of society that back then, and even now nobody really gives a two hoots about.  Well, sorry, my God tells me to love all equally.  Even those who have name called and posted other derogatory comments about me.  But I guess that is just the nature of being in the Lions Den isn't it?

 

 

If you can manage to love all equally, despite the things that they may or may not say to you, then I'd say you're morality is superior to that of your own god. If I told your god to fuck off and called him names, he'd throw me into a lake of fire and leave me there to burn because he has a massive ego and a heart of glass. Simply picking up sticks on a day that is to be spent making him happy will send him into a rage.

 

God is love.  Old cliche, I know.  But it is true.

 

That's funny. You think god is love. "god" defines love through his "holy spirit" in 1 Corinthians 13 and yet he does not actually bear out the attributes he describes. god isn't even the love he defines. You sure don't read the bible much, do you?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

 

First point about Israel and the Jews rejecting Jesus being prophecied:

 

"The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One,

   To Him whom man despises,

   To Him whom the nation abhors."

   (Isaiah 49:7)

 

 

 

It doesn't say 

"To Yeshua son of Mary whom man despises,

To Yeshua son of Mary whom the nation abhors."

 

It uses vague wording that could be anybody, anybody at all.  And a prophesy that could mean anything isn't a prophesy.

Just a question then?  How is Jesus then depicted around the world?  Is he generally accepted, or rejected?  Pretty good prophec of oneself isn't it?

 

  "He is despised and rejected by men,

     A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief."

     (Isaiah 53:3)

 

Psalm 118:22; Psalm 69:8; 31:11; 88:8,18; Job 19:13; John 1:11; 7:3,5

 

 

I don't know about around the world, but in the USA there is a Jesus church on every other street corner.

 

 

The passage in red could just as easily apply to Ordinaryclay as to jesus.  Hell, given the right audience, it could just as easily apply to TheRedneckProfessor.

[midniterider]

 

  Yes there are many people out there who don't believe in God, yet do wonderful things for their communities and so on.  Against the stark backdrop of our sinfulness and God's holiness, we need a saviour.

 

...

 

I have no stark backdrop of sinfulness nor do I need a savior.

[mymistake]

 

Well, sorry, my God tells me to love all equally.  Even those who have name called and posted other derogatory comments about me.  But I guess that is just the nature of being in the Lions Den isn't it?

 

 

You earned those derogatory comments by defending, denying, rationalizing and excusing rape.  If people hate you for it you have nobody to blame but yourself.

[WaitingInfinity]

I haven't been de-converted very long, but I remember exactly how I used to think as a Christian and Funguyrye, you're doing the same thing that I did. Even though you are being presented with logical evidence and obvious scenarios where God becomes the bad immoral guy, you still find ways of reconciling God's "love" with God's "judgement". And you could probably do this all day because it is (unconsciously) staving off your own doubt. 

 

This whole thread has gone nowhere because there are two types of language going on here. You are using the language of faith and we are using the language of logic and rationality and they don't mix at all. You cannot use faith to talk about logic and vice versa, so please come over into the logic camp where everyone else is. 

 

It's okay to admit that God was a douchebag in the Old Testament. 

[midniterider]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Stop with the arguments about translation.  If your god is real and as powerful as you would have us believe, then he would be able to protect his holy word from being corrupted by mistranslation, whether accidental or deliberate. 

 

In Genesis, GOD confused the languages of mankind.  This problem of translation is a result of HIS actions.  Why is he not making sure that his one way of revealing himself to us stays pure?  Is mankind more powerful than god?  Or is the devil?  Are we really able to thwart his will with our puny human efforts?  If not, then how could this happen.

 

Good point. Why would God allow a poor translation of his HOLY WORD to exist?

[♦ ficino ♦]

You are equivocating on "Yeshua."

[bdp]

fungie is still blah blah blahing.  What a waste - gotta love the 'ignore' function.

[mymistake]

People argue, well if Jesus was in the OT, where does it say it then.  Well, Jesus, or Yeshua in Hebrew is salvation.  The name of Yeshua means salvation.  So even apart from the NT, the OT is full of Jesus's or Yeshua's name.  Here are a couple verses:

 

 

Genesis 49:18  “For Your salvation (Yeshua or Jesus) I wait, O Lord.

 

Exodus 14:13  But Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation (Yeshua or Jesus) of the Lord which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever.

 

Jesus is all over the OT.

 

 

You interpreted wrong.  Gen 49:18 and Ex 14:13 actually refer to Invisible Pink Unicorns.  You just can't see it because the reference is invisible.  But we know though faith that it is there.

 

Yes FGR, this is getting stupid.  What stupid thing will you come up with next?

 

Perhaps you will argue that the Bible isn't a book.  Perhaps next you will say there are no words in the Bible.  It's all quite silly.  What is there you deny.  What isn't there you claim.  Every verse that doesn't mention Jesus mentions Jesus.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

Okay, you've demonstrated your knowledge of the scripture and your ability to decide which scriptures are literal and which are metaphorical.  You've even demonstrated your willingness to believe that your holy book somehow affects the events that take place in the real world.  However, I asked you to demonstrate the divinity of jesus and the truth of the bible.  I don't need scripture references quoted; I already know them.  They do not impress me.  If you wish to impress me, please provide at least a logical argument in support of the divinity of jesus without using the bible (unless you can also provide evidence as its validity).

 

Cool thing about the bible in Hebrew is things one would and could never pick up in their english versions.  Every Hebrew letter has a meaning and ancient pictograph.  The Hebrew equivalent to our t is the letter tav.  It is a picture of a slightly slanted cross.  Another Hebrew letter is the letter vav.  In the pictograph it is the picture of a nail that connects.  Now the word tav, is the tav and vav together and it means a mark or a signature, and it used in Ezekiel 9.

 

Ezekiel 9:4-6

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

⁴ The Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark (tav) on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” ⁵ But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. ⁶ Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark (tav); and you shall start from My sanctuary.” So they started with the elders who were before the temple.

 

By implication, this is God's signature on the ones he will spare.  His signature was put on the ones he would spare.  The word tav is a cross and a nail together.  You mean people were still saved in the OT by the cross?  Sure they were. 

 

Just in the word tav in the OT, is a picture of what would happen hundreds and hundreds of years later and the ones he would save by the picture of the cross. 

 

 

I ask you for proof of the divinity of jesus and of the truth of the bible and you come to me with a lesson in Hebrew?!  Let me tell you something, son, I have a minor in biblical studies and my wife's family is almost entirely Jewish.  Do you think I haven't picked up a bit of Hebrew somewhere along the line?  Arrogant!  I've already told you I'm not impressed with scriptural exigesis.  I studied your sacred texts for thirty years, boy.  You have once again failed miserably.  Putting Hebrew letters on people's head no more demonstrates the divinity of jesus than it does the veracity of your book of myths.  You can try again or you can accept the inevitability of your position.  You have NO PROOF.

 

I'll let someone else point out to you verse 6 in the passage you quote and give them the pleasure of tearing you a new one about how "nice" your god is supposed to be.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, you've demonstrated your knowledge of the scripture and your ability to decide which scriptures are literal and which are metaphorical.  You've even demonstrated your willingness to believe that your holy book somehow affects the events that take place in the real world.  However, I asked you to demonstrate the divinity of jesus and the truth of the bible.  I don't need scripture references quoted; I already know them.  They do not impress me.  If you wish to impress me, please provide at least a logical argument in support of the divinity of jesus without using the bible (unless you can also provide evidence as its validity).

 

Cool thing about the bible in Hebrew is things one would and could never pick up in their english versions.  Every Hebrew letter has a meaning and ancient pictograph.  The Hebrew equivalent to our t is the letter tav.  It is a picture of a slightly slanted cross.  Another Hebrew letter is the letter vav.  In the pictograph it is the picture of a nail that connects.  Now the word tav, is the tav and vav together and it means a mark or a signature, and it used in Ezekiel 9.

 

Ezekiel 9:4-6

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

⁴ The Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark (tav) on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” ⁵ But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. ⁶ Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark (tav); and you shall start from My sanctuary.” So they started with the elders who were before the temple.

 

By implication, this is God's signature on the ones he will spare.  His signature was put on the ones he would spare.  The word tav is a cross and a nail together.  You mean people were still saved in the OT by the cross?  Sure they were. 

 

Just in the word tav in the OT, is a picture of what would happen hundreds and hundreds of years later and the ones he would save by the picture of the cross. 

 

 

I ask you for proof of the divinity of jesus and of the truth of the bible and you come to me with a lesson in Hebrew?!  Let me tell you something, son, I have a minor in biblical studies and my wife's family is almost entirely Jewish.  Do you think I haven't picked up a bit of Hebrew somewhere along the line?  Arrogant!  I've already told you I'm not impressed with scriptural exigesis.  I studied your sacred texts for thirty years, boy.  You have once again failed miserably.  Putting Hebrew letters on people's head no more demonstrates the divinity of jesus than it does the veracity of your book of myths.  You can try again or you can accept the inevitability of your position.  You have NO PROOF.

 

I'll let someone else point out to you verse 6 in the passage you quote and give them the pleasure of tearing you a new one about how "nice" your god is supposed to be.

 

What is the aleph tav then?  I would like to hear about what you learned from your biblical studies in regards to this.

 

 

And I would like to see your proof of the divinity of jesus and the veracity of the scripture.  I guess we'll both be disappointed.

[Realist]

Yawn!!!!! The vile power of indoctrination!!