If Jesus Is God

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

First point about Israel and the Jews rejecting Jesus being prophecied:

 

"The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One,

To Him whom man despises,

To Him whom the nation abhors."

(Isaiah 49:7)

 

It doesn't say

"To Yeshua son of Mary whom man despises,

To Yeshua son of Mary whom the nation abhors."

 

It uses vague wording that could be anybody, anybody at all. And a prophesy that could mean anything isn't a prophesy.

Yeah, but you are forgetting one critical aspect.....

.... This guy worships the book. So pointing out its flaws and fallacies won't help. You may as well be insulting "YHWH" himself. Since YHWH doesn't really exist outside of the fiction we know as "bible", criticizing the bible is equated with criticizing the Jewish/Christian god.

 

 

I prophesied that you would say that.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

I'd feel a lot better if 'god' could, oh, bless a bunch of children by intervening so they don't get slaughtered by a psycho in their own classrooms.  Seems your 'god' is only concerned about getting his ass kissed.

We all ask God how could you let this happen?

 

Don't you think he is looking down at us and asking us the same thing?

 

 

 

Nope.  It makes a lot more sense if there is no God.  Both good and bad things happen and that is just the way it is.

 

You said God doesn't want to curse us for a thousand generations.  There is no reason for Jesus to die in the first place.  If God doesn't want to curse us for a thousand generations then just forgive Adam and Eve (who didn't exist) for eating the forbidden fruit (that didn't exist).  Forgiveness really isn't that hard.  Humans can forgive better than the God of the Bible.  But Christianity where Jesus just died for no apparent reason isn't as appealing.

 

God's justice system demands a life for a life.  Adam and Eve were cursed to go back to the ground they came from.  We are dead to our sins.  The reason for all the OT sacrifices was to point us to that fact.  Because we deserved to die for our sin, an innocent little animal dies in our place.  We are all under the condemnation of death because of our sins.  We all have to face the firing squad, but Jesus pushed us out of the way and said I will die in your place instead.  A perfect sacrifice could only redeem us from the penalty of death, and no animal could do that.  That is why Jesus laid his life down willingly.

 

Yes that was preaching.

 

 

Your great great great great ........ grandma ate an unauthorized fruit ....... so we are going to have to give YOU and everyone else on the planet forever and ever the death sentence because of that. Does this strike you as retarded in any way at all? Then Jesus died for a day and a half then got resurrected. That's not a life for a life nor is it a sacrifice either. That's an extended nap. Big deal. Someone's tag line on this site is "a real sacrifice stays dead." Who would not be willing to take a day and a half nap? No loss there. I got a DVR. :-)

 

I'm sorry your ability to think has been short circuited by the fear that some religious idiot has infected you with. I was also similarly infected for a decade. Question these bizarro Christian ideas. Question everything and if it doesn't make sense, it's bullshit.

[bdp]

"God's justice system demands a life for a life."

 

Why?  Remember your 'god' allegedly made the rules, if there ever really was a 'fall' by 'adam and eve' god arranged that fall and could have reconciled that fall any way he chose - even by saying 'my bad, I like ya anyway, come on in.'  NOBODY EVER HAD TO DIE IF your 'god' were real and had chosen to make it so.  No pressure was upon any deity to set a system of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.  It's all fables

[pawn]

I prophesied that you would say that.

Well you should have write it down first!

 

Hey, I have an idea! Let's pretend to be jews, and then we'll create a new religion based on a crazy radical rabbi... We'll say he's the messiah, and we'll write tons of " fulfilled prophecy" showing how he is really, truly, the messiah, and well use the Hebrew bible to find messianic prophecies, and we'll twist everything to make it look like he's the messiah and he fulfilled all the prophecy!!!

 

 

We are gonna be so Rich! I'm gonna have 300 concubines like king salami! Yeah!

[mymistake]

 

I'm not saying give Christianity a break.  This is an ex-christian site.  So some of what ex-christians have been taught has been untruthful.  Thought you might like to know I agree with some things pointed out here by ex-christians.

 

 

Some of what Christians have taught us was untruthful.  Unfortunately you are following the same religious path that caused so many problems.  If you want to find truth follow science.  Let "I don't know" be your starting point and follow evidence wherever it leads.  This is the only way humans can find truth.

 

 

 

.

[Ravenstar]

What has been taught us Ex-christians (that was untruthful)?  I'm curious... could you clarify please? (and who did this teaching?)

[mymistake]

 

 

Allah, buddha, gishnu never did come down to live and dwell with man and teach us how to love and care for one another, only to lay down his life for all of us.  No other god can lay claim to that kind of love.  So no, have not looked deeply into other believes.

 

 

 

Uh, actually Buddha did live and dwell with men.  He was a man.  Atheist don't give Buddhism much trouble because Buddha didn't claim to be god, didn't claim to be son of a god and did everything through human effort.  Plus most Buddhists are peaceful.

 

If you cannot use objective evidence to demonstrate that Jesus did the things attributed to Jesus then you can't claim them for Jesus either.  You can still take it on faith but it's just your personal belief without evidence.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

Okay Fungi (am I pronouncing that correctly?), you believe that god loves us and wants to bless us for a thousand generations or whatever the phrase was, right?  You also seem to believe that you have some new information that we aren't privy to and the fact that you write on another site somehow lends credibility to your case.  With that in mind, I have one question for you:

 

If god is all he's cracked up to be, then why didn't he provide your "information" to some pastor or deacon in each of our churches so that it could be passed on to us before we became ex-christians? 

 

Are you going to try to tell me that he moves in mysterious ways?  Are you going to try to convince me that his ways are higher than our ways?  Oh, please tell me about how god has a plan for everybody and this is just part of his plan to use you as a troll in sheep's clothing to redeem us godless heathens.

 

So far, you've offered meaningless drivel; it's time you brought your big-boy game.

You can be an ex-christian and still believe in Jesus.  Some people take serious objections to being called a christian, even though they believe in Jesus.  Do you reject Christianity?  I can't defend that.  The Christian church has strayed very far from its Jewish roots.  Jesus did not come to this earth to begin a new movement called Christianity.  Christianity arose as a result of separating themselves from their Jewish roots.  Do we share the same message of Jesus dying for us?  Yes.  But after that, is a different story.  In the process, Christianity has lost a bunch of stuff from their roots. 

 

So is it Jesus you have an issue with?  Or is it Christianity?

 

 

This is your big-boy game?  Basically you're simply saying, "Ah come on, guys, give christianity a break.  The poor old bride of christ has just lost her way, is all.  She just ain't what christ intended her to be." 

 

How on earth could you possibly think that is a convincing argument?

 

I'm not saying give Christianity a break.  This is an ex-christian site.  So some of what ex-christians have been taught has been untruthful.  Thought you might like to know I agree with some things pointed out here by ex-christians.

 

 

And I agree with some of the things in the bible, so there we are.  My point being that just because you think the church has lost its way in no way, shape or form validates what you believe.  You say christianity was just a splinter group that came out of judaism and lost its way so now you believe in a splinter group that attempts to marry christianity with judaism.  The problem is, all three religions are based on a book of myths and fairy tales. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

 

Sure.  The bible was originally written in the Hebrew, not English, Mandarin, Greek, etc.  This was the original language and over the last 50 or so years, has brought out amzing insights into the bible, specifically about Jesus

 

 

The Jewish scriptures were written in Hebrew.  The Roman scriptures were written in Greek.  They are not from the same religion.

 

They are the same believes.  Christianity has twisted the New Testament into believing the Old Testament was the old wineskin, and now Christianity is the new wineskin.  Nothing is further then the truth. 

 

I believe the NT was written in Hebrew or Aramaic and then quickly translated into Greek.  As all the NT writers were Jews, it makes sense the NT was not written in Greek.

 

Evidence?

 

1) Evidence that the new testament was written firstly in Hebrew or Aramaic.

 

2) Evidence that the New Testament writers were Jews.

 

(the authors saying they are jews, isnt evidence.  I can write a book and in that book say I am a two-headed monster, but my claim doesn't serve as evidence that I am in fact a two-headed monster.)

 

The evidence the NT was written in Hebrew or Aramaic is just common sense.  Would you expect a historical record of events in Britain be written in French first if it was written by a native Brit?  The NT writers were Jews because it said they were. 

 

Is it so hard to believe the bible is a historical book as well?  Just because it isn't in the bible, do you believe Alexander the Great lived?  Why accept texts that say Sir Alex lived, yet not Jesus?

 

 

Funny thing about that.  Many years ago, in Ireland, I found a first edition copy of "A History of North Carolina", written in the 1600's by an Englishman, not a Tarheel.  "Common sense" is not the same as reliable, scientifically proven fact. 

 

Most of the scholars I have read have all agreed that the gospels were written in Greek.

[pawn]

Allah, buddha, gishnu never did come down to live and dwell with man and teach us how to love and care for one another, only to lay down his life for all of us. No other god can lay claim to that kind of love. So no, have not looked deeply into other believes.

Circular logic.

 

Book A says such and such.... Therefore I believe it. I haven't read books B-Z, but I bet they don't say what book A says, therefore I havent looked into them.

 

 

????

 

 

First of all, how do you know Allah, Buddha, etc haven't "come down to live and dwell with man and teach us how to love and care for one another, only to lay down his life for all of us"? Since you haven't even bothered looking into them???

 

 

Secondly, how so you know that Jesus did "come down to live and dwell with man and teach us how to love and care for one another, only to lay down his life for all of us".

Except through the bible?

 

Why put such unshakable faith in one book, yet not even bother looking at others?

 

Are you mentally handicapped? Or perhaps just brainwashed and biased?

[Ravenstar]

 

 

Until the veracity of the Bible is proven, verses don't mean a thing. I can quote text also, quite lovely text.. here's a very small sample of holy texts from around the world and through the ages.

 

1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.

What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?

 

2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.

That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.

 

3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.

All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.

 

4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.

Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.

 

5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?

There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder

 

6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?

The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?

 

7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,

Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

 

~ Rig Veda, Book 10 (not sure about how exact the translation is - but very interesting thoughts)

 

 

"Say. Do you disbelieve Him Who created the earth in two periods? Do you ascribe equals to Him. He is the Lord of the Worlds.

"He set in the (earth) mountains standing firm. He blessed it.

He measured therein its sustenance in four periods, in due proportion, in accordance with the needs of those who ask for (sustenance? or information?).

"Moreover (tumma) He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth: come willingly or unwillingly! They said: we come in willing obedience.

"Then He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and He assigned to each heaven its mandate by Revelation. And We adorned the lower heaven with luminaries and provided it a guard. Such is the decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge."

 

~ Q'uran verses 9 to 12, sura 41:

 

 

Hail to thee, oh god who sends forth the Moment, who

presides over all the Secret things, and protects the utterance

of my words.

 

Here is a god displeased against me ; let wrong be over-

whelmed and let it fall upon the hands of the Lord of Law,

Remove the impediments which are in me and the evil and the

darkness, oh Lord of Law, and let that god be reconciled to me,

removing that which detains me from thee.

 

Oh, lord of offerings in Kenu (ear of corn - not sure what it signifies, maybe the offering?), let me offer to thee the

propitiary offering by which thou livest, and let me live by it and

be reconciled.

 

Let all the displeasure which is in thy heart against me be

removed.

 

CHAPTER XIV ~ Egyptian Book of the Dead

 

 

 

5. And therefore as Thou, O Ahura Mazda! didst think, speak, dispose, and do all things good (for us), so to Thee would we give, so would we assign to Thee our homage; so would we worship Thee with our sacrifices. So would we bow before Thee with these gifts, and so direct our prayers to Thee with confessions of our debt. 

6. By the kinship of the good kindred, by that of Righteousness the good (Thy righteous servant's nature) would we approach Thee, and by that of the good thrift-law, and of Piety the good. 

 

~ Zoroastrian Avesta - Yasna  13:5, 6

 

 

 

ANATHAPINDIKA rejoiced at the words of the Blessed One and said: I dwell at Savatthi, the capital of Kosala, a land rich in produce and enjoying peace. Pasenadi is the king of the country, and his name is renowned among our own people and our neighbors. Now I wish to found there a vihara which shall be a place of religious devotion for your brotherhood, and I pray you kindly to accept it."

 

The Buddha saw into the heart of the supporter of orphans; and knowing that unselfish charity was the moving cause of his offer, in acceptance of the gift, the Blessed One said: "The charitable man is loved by all; his friendship is prized highly; in death his heart is at rest and full of joy, for he suffers not from repentance; he receives the opening flower of his reward and the fruit that ripens from it. Hard it is to understand: By giving away our food, we get more strength, by bestowing clothing on others, we gain more beauty; by donating abodes of purity and truth, we acquire great treasures.

 

"There is a proper time and a proper mode in charity; just as the vigorous warrior goes to battle, so is the man who is able to give. He is like an able warrior a champion strong and wise in action. Loving and compassionate he gives with reverence and banishes all hatred, envy, and anger.

 

"The charitable man has found the path of salvation. He is like the man who plants a sapling, securing thereby the shade, the flowers, and the fruit in future years. Even so is the result of charity, even so is the joy of him who helps those that are in need of assistance; even so is the great Nirvana. We reach the immortal path only by continuous acts of kindliness and we perfect our souls by compassion and charity."

Anathapindika invited Sariputta to accompany him on his return to Kosala and help him in selecting a pleasant site for the vihara.

 

~ Buddha, Sermon on Charity

 

 

 

1. Hearing I ask | from the holy races,

From Heimdall's sons, | both high and low;

Thou wilt, Valfather, | that well I relate

Old tales I remember | of men long ago.

 

2. I remember yet | the giants of yore,

Who gave me bread | in the days gone by;

Nine worlds I knew, | the nine in the tree

With mighty roots | beneath the mold.

 

 

3. Of old was the age | when Ymir lived;

Sea nor cool waves | nor sand there were;

Earth had not been, | nor heaven above,

But a yawning gap, | and grass nowhere.

 

4. Then Bur's sons lifted | the level land,

Mithgarth the mighty | there they made;

The sun from the south | warmed the stones of earth,

And green was the ground | with growing leeks.

 

5. The sun, the sister | of the moon, from the south

Her right hand cast | over heaven's rim;

No knowledge she had | where her home should be,

The moon knew not | what might was his,

The stars knew not | where their stations were.

 

~ Norse Poetic Eddas; Voluspo, 1 - 5

 

 

Yes, what about all these divinely inspired texts?  have you looked into these, funguyrye?  JUST like the bible, these are ancient texts written by holy men, priests and sages.  JUST like the bible, these holy scriptures contain wisdom, prophecy and amazing revelations of the Divine.  JUST like the bible, they are all fictional mythology written by primitive men...

 

 

If we are to take the words of the bible seriously, just because it contains prophecy, then why not all these other books?

 

 

(good post, and excellent argument Ravenstar...)

 

Allah, buddha, gishnu never did come down to live and dwell with man and teach us how to love and care for one another, only to lay down his life for all of us.  No other god can lay claim to that kind of love.  So no, have not looked deeply into other believes.

 

Buddha was a real person and most definitely DID live with us.. Buddha is a title, his name was Siddhartha Gautauma, he was a prince before giving up the good life to go find enlightenment through asceticism and poverty. He taught, well, a lot.

 

The Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same god.

 

Allah is Yahweh.. same god, just the Aramaic name... Abraham's god, and Mohammad was a real person and he did go around teaching people how to live and care for one another.

 

Confucious was a real person. Not sure about Krishna...that's going WAY back and I don't know the story... Bhim might know more about that.  

 

Zarathustra was a real person...

 

You are highly uneducated in the worlds' religions... do you think everyone other than christians just pulled crap out of their butts? No, they have holy men, prophets, ancient texts and creation myths and proverbs, hymns, etc..

 

IF you were honest you would look into these things rather than swallow your religion whole without investigation.  I highly doubt you would be a christian if you were born in Qatar, or India, or Tibet.

 

As for the laying down of his life? It isn't a sacrifice if you don't STAY DEAD. It's an excursion. Plus, it never happened. Oh, he may have been executed (as a heretic though, not an insurrectionist) but the Romans didn't execute heretics that way, and neither did the Jews (they were rather fond of stoning). The story has so many gaps and wild inconsistencies it isn't funny. There are NO records from the Romans, and they liked keeping records.

 

Did you know Nazareth didn't even exist at the time of Jesus? It was a cemetery, or garbage dump.. can't remember which.

 

No one ever had to go to his place of birth for a census... Romans didn't do that.

 

etc...

[mymistake]

 

 

The evidence the NT was written in Hebrew or Aramaic is just common sense.  Would you expect a historical record of events in Britain be written in French first if it was written by a native Brit?  The NT writers were Jews because it said they were. 

 

Is it so hard to believe the bible is a historical book as well?  Just because it isn't in the bible, do you believe Alexander the Great lived?  Why accept texts that say Sir Alex lived, yet not Jesus?

 

 

The Bible contains almost no history.  The tiny scraps in the Bible that resemble history have been badly distorted as propaganda.  You are assuming the NT writers were Jews.  However many of them were ignorant of Jewish customs and Hebrew language.  There is outside evidence that Alexander lived.  The evidence that Jesus Christ lived is deafening in it's silence.  However there is plenty of evidence that the NT writers copied and retold stories from other traditions as part of the Jesus and Christian story.

[mymistake]

 

Paul was a Roman.. NOT a Jew.

 

 

Say Ravenstar, would you please expand on why you reject the idea that Paul was Jewish.  I would like to understand that.  Thanks.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

God's justice system demands a life for a life.  Adam and Eve were cursed to go back to the ground they came from.  We are dead to our sins.  The reason for all the OT sacrifices was to point us to that fact.  Because we deserved to die for our sin, an innocent little animal dies in our place.  We are all under the condemnation of death because of our sins.  We all have to face the firing squad, but Jesus pushed us out of the way and said I will die in your place instead.  A perfect sacrifice could only redeem us from the penalty of death, and no animal could do that.  That is why Jesus laid his life down willingly.

 

You know I use to believe that stuff too but if you think about it that is sick and barbaric.  Hurting innocent animals to please the gods - that is right up there with worshiping Zeus and Baal.  Demanding a life for a bite of fruit isn't justice.  Demanding billions of lives be redeemed for two bites of fruit is the opposite of justice.  And punishing a human being, even a willing human being, for religious reasons is totally sick.  The whole thing is silly.  If God made us so that we are robots to sin, so that our nature offends God then it is God's fault and not ours.  It's a house of cards.

 

Instead realize that Christianity is a way for a few scam artists to get a whole lot of money without doing much work.  That is what it always has been.  Why be a tent maker when you can accept cash offerings for God?  The Bible was written so that priests and pastors would get a free ride.

 

Yes, that is how some have fleeced the flock.  I agree there.

 

God is not some barbaric entity that wants animal sacrifices.  But they were there to serve a purpose to highlight the fact that a life demands a life ransom.  He would rather have taken obedience any day.  But that isn't in our nature since the time of Adam. 

 

 

Yes but it's already been pointed out that jesus didn't stay dead, according to the myth.  He was only in the grave for three days; then it was back off to heaven to be exalted at the right hand of the father.  That's the spiritual equivalent of having a bad weekend in return for a glorious promotion to the corner office. 

 

It wasn't a life for life sacrifice.  It was a three-day-weekend for life exchange.

[mymistake]

I will give you this much funguyrye.  You try to answer questions and you have read the Bible.  That is a lot better than the typical Christian we see around here.  I'm glad you are putting an effort into this.  In the end we will probably not agree on religion and I'm okay with that.

[bdp]

Meh, he's a typical Xtian idiot.

[pawn]

Between this thread, and the Hare Krishna thread, I am so sick, I think I'm gonna take two huge shits tomorrow morning. One for Lord Jesus' face, and one for Lord Krishna's face.

 

Glory to the two Lords of ignorance! Be baptized in my poo!

[Ravenstar]

I stand corrected, but he still was a Roman citizen, and obviously either wealthy or part of the priesthood seeing as he could write. Nevertheless the NT was written in Greek. (the language of educated scribes at the time - the average person wasn't too literate) and yes there was a schism in the temple at the time between the Saduccees and the Pharisees.

 

However, you did not explain how the christian church has deviated from the OT... the OT is pretty clear in it's expectations of yahweh's people... and it's very legalistic.

 

I know a little about Judaism, but  quite a bit more about christianity, especially non-mainstream types.  Cough it up..

[mymistake]

 

His death was necessary as revealed in Passover.  Israel was redeemed only by the death of the lamb and the angel of the Lord passing over their houses.  “…When I see the blood, I will pass over you.” Exodus 12:13

 

Without the shedding of blood there is no atonement. He recognized that no man could keep His Law perfectly. But at the center of the Law is God’s gracious provision: Life for life.

 

In each of the homes of the Israelites and Egyptians that first Passover night, an innocent life had to be taken to spare the life of the firstborn of each family. Here again is a fundamental principle of the Good News—all have sinned and are guilty.

 

God has pronounced judgment on all. He makes no distinction between Jew or Gentile. It is not by works that we obtain right standing before God. It is a gift of God himself. The wages of sin is death. This was God’s judgment upon the inhabitants of Egypt—Egyptians and Israelites alike.

 

That night the Angel of Death was to smite the firstborn, including the Israelites. But the blood was to be a token upon the houses. God promised: “When I see the blood, I will pass over...” (Ex. 12:13). This is the very center of Passover and the Good News—in this the Gospel is summed up.

I never learned these things growing up. Although I was taught about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and learned about the biblical figures, I never understood that God is alive and His Word is alive and I am a sinful being in need of atonement. I never appreciated that deliverance in a deep and meaningful way.

 

The Church also lacks that appreciation. If we don’t appreciate the Old Covenant Scriptures, then we have missed the deep understanding of God’s character as Deliverer and Provider.

 

We are told by the Prophets 750 years before Yeshua was born that One without sin would come and die for our sins. Although He was sinless, it pleased God to bruise Him and to lay upon Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53).

 

 

Now you are just talking nonsense.

 

This is where Christians try to combine two different religions and it doesn't work.  The Old Testament is barbaric with the blood and requiring death.  These things are not love or justice or good.  And the new God of the New Testament has taken a back seat.  Jesus steals the show so much that he even gets worshiped once Rome took over Christianity.  The new God is nothing like the jealous, petty, vengeful God of the Old Testament.  Old Testament God would have you killed for worshiping Jesus.  No kidding.  Your whole family would be dead except for the young girls who would be carted off as sex slaves for the followers of Yahweh.  Oh and they would keep all your property as well.

 

The deepest understanding is to realize this is all the words of men.

[Ravenstar]

Unfortunately the Hebrews were never in Egypt as slaves (okay, maybe a few but not as a nation).. Moses' comes from an older Akkadian myth... here is the clue... 'Moses' is an Egyptian word, it means 'son of' - as in Tutmoses i.e.: son of Tut . They got the name wrong because they didn't understand the context it was used in Egypt, and the story, originally, is much older - at least of Moses heritage.

 

Soooo.... not seeing how that applies to the NT. The Passover is a lie..(although an interesting story and maybe an ancient memory of plague and drought in the breadbasket of the middle east) ...so is the Exodus a lie.  NO EVIDENCE at all.. none.

[mymistake]

 

FYI, God never sanctioned rape or handing daughters over to rapists.  That is abhorrent.

 

 

Perhaps not a real God, if any.  However the Bible does sanction rape.

 

Numbers 31:18

"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

 

 

Judges 21:12

"And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan."

 

 

Deut 20:14

"But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee."

[Realist]

 

 it changed the way I wanted to act, think and live out my life.  I want to do good now, I want to give of my time to help others.  I want to tell everyone the hope that lives within me and the coming King.  

Isn't it strange the way christians suddenly feel the need to want to do good? 

Maybe you have lived and still live in the wrong circles?

 

I work with people daily who do not have a religious bone in their bodies, yet as normal, caring, loving, giving human beings devote HUGELY of their time and monies with NO ulterior motives in mind as do christians.

 

As far as the hope within you for the coming king ... I think many here have long got to the stage of likening that to Santa arriving on Christmas eve! Mythology just does not happen!

Surely you must realize that people who were bought up with this as FACT FROM BIRTH with its vile message attached .... and have got to where we are now .... would you not think we would realize the propensity of what we are doing better than ANYONE? See we MUST have found something which has been far more powerful and convincing than your "word"! 

 

Do you not see it is YOU that is missing something? You will NEVER have any chance of seeing this unless you get your mind out of its tiny ball of indoctrination! Circular thinking ... it just goes around and around!!!!

[mymistake]

And from the very beginning, it is clear that sin requires payment. This is so because sin is an affront to God’s holiness and glory. God’s justice demands payment for sin, and any lack of proper payment would reveal God to be less than just.

 

When the prohibition is given to Adam and Eve regarding the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the penalty for disobedience is clearly given: “in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Death was the payment for sin. God would not allow His image in mankind to be falsely portrayed. Yet there was a way of redemption—a way for mankind to return to his noble status as the bearer of God’s image. Foreshadowed by the death of the animal necessary to cloth the naked Adam and Chavah, the principle of substitution in God’s plan of salvation was revealed. A life in exchange for a life—that was God’s plan.

 

Uh no.  This is not what justice means.  When my kids spill milk and make a mess I might yell at them a bit (if they were doing something stupid that I had already asked the to stop) and I would clean it up.  I would not have to kill something.  I certainly would not kill my kids unless they sacrificed their pet cat or goldfish to repay the sin of the spilled milk.

 

The Bible is Bronze Age problem solving.  This way of thinking is barbaric.  It isn't justice.

[mymistake]

 

One example would be the great flood.  Differing religions hold similar stories (Epic of Gilgamesh, Atrahasis Epic, Zoroastrian account of Yim and the Hindu story of Manu in India) all hold similar stories. 

 

Scientifically the Great Flood is impossible.  We know it could not have happened unless a miracle destroyed all the evidence and created false evidence in it's place.  That would make God dishonest.  Clearly the Genesis account is a Bronze Age myth with answers that were dreamed up using Bronze Age thinking.  

 

But if you were going to excuse it all with miracles you are still left with the theological stupidity of it.  We have a God who has no foresight.  He can't plan ahead.  He makes mistakes.  He repents.  And when he wants to get rid of the humans the only way he can do it is to flood the whole Earth?  Where are his powers?  Where is his justice?  He is going to kill all the innocent animals (except for a few) and repopulate the Earth with incest.  A God with the power to make an ark work with all of it's problems could just smite all the humans and not bother with killing the animals.  And then this God needs a rainbow to remind God to not do anymore world destroying floods?  Oh and why is Ham and Canaan on the boat when it turns out they do some nasty thing to Noah later?  Didn't God see that coming when he planed out how to eliminate wickedness?

 

It's fiction, badly written fiction at that.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

I'm not saying give Christianity a break.  This is an ex-christian site.  So some of what ex-christians have been taught has been untruthful.  Thought you might like to know I agree with some things pointed out here by ex-christians.

 

 

Some of what Christians have taught us was untruthful.  Unfortunately you are following the same religious path that caused so many problems.  If you want to find truth follow science.  Let "I don't know" be your starting point and follow evidence wherever it leads.  This is the only way humans can find truth.

 

 

 

.

 

I pray scientists look into the deepest recesses of space and into the tiniest of the tiniest of atoms.  There they will find God.  I am trying to study up on agri-bio linguistics.  Should be interesting when I find the time.  In the mean time, I like the science in the bible.

 

1. Genesis 1:12

   The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
2. Genesis 1:21
   God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
3. Genesis 1:24
   Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.
4. Genesis 1:25
   God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

I look outside and I see apple trees making more apple trees, salmon making more salmon, monkeys making other monkeys, etc, etc.  So I tend to believe God who was there and told us how he did it as evidence, versus a bunch of evolutionary scientists who admit they all were not there billions and billions of years ago, and tell us how the world was created with no evidence.

 

 

Ummmm.... how about looking a bit more deeply into cosmology, rather than agri-bio linguistics, Funguyrye?

 

Also, you might like to read up on the remit of science and what it can and cannot do. 

God (or anything supernatural) will not, has not been and cannot be found by scientists - because it's not within the remit of science to attribute anything it can investigate to a supernatural cause.  Science, by definition, only investigates natural phenomenon.  When something has no naturalistic explanation, the only answer a scientist can give is that they don't know.  Anything more than that means stepping outside of science.

 

But don't take all this from me... I'm not a scientist.

However, the RedNeckedProfessor is.  I'm sure he can explain what science does and what it cannot or must not do.

 

Going back to cosmology...

In the light of the current data, Genesis 1:1 and anything that follows, cannot be linked to what has been observed.  Therefore, Yahweh cannot be the causal agent responsible for the universe.

 

I recommend these links to you.

 

http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=32024

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/science/space/planck-satellite-shows-image-of-infant-universe.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.sciops.esa.int/index.php?project=PLANCK&page=Planck_Published_Papers

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_inflation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_principle

 

Thanks,

 

BAA