Christians: Define A Personal Relationship With Jesus

[falemon]

@Overcome Faith: dude, you've just done their homework for them lol

 

@FGR: thanks for making the effort. Although I was looking for a clear cut direct description I appreciate you giving an answer to the question.

 

--

 

I HATE the use of emphatic qualifying words that have no actual measure. For you to be able to determine whether someone "has a relationship with Jesus," or anyone for that matter, it must be immediately testable or visible otherwise it becomes a vain expression of no meaning apart from the cultural use of jargon.

[mymistake]

@Overcome Faith: dude, you've just done their homework for them lol

 

@FGR: thanks for making the effort. Although I was looking for a clear cut direct description I appreciate you giving an answer to the question.

 

--

 

I HATE the use of emphatic qualifying words that have no actual measure. For you to be able to determine whether someone "has a relationship with Jesus," or anyone for that matter, it must be immediately testable or visible otherwise it becomes a vain expression of no meaning apart from the cultural use of jargon.

 

 

Perhaps it would be helpful to compare and contrast a Christian who has a relationship with Jesus Christ, a stalker who is crazy about a movie star and a peasant who is ruled by Kim Jong Un.

[Guest Marty]

That is the best I can come up with on why we need a personal relationship with Yeshua. 

 

 

That is not the question that was asked in the OP.  Falsemon asked WHAT a personal relationship with jesus is and how you (and others) can tell if you have one.

 

 

 

 

 If Yeshua is the Word made flesh, and he is the Way the Truth and Life, why would you not use his word to communicate what a relationship with him is like?

 

 

​Because what is asked is what a personal relationship is like.  2000 year old scripture does not tell us anything about your personal relationship and what it is like.  You can not communicate your personal experiences with scripture.

 

If I asked you what marriage is like (or what your gf is like, if you are not married) would you reply with a bunch of bible verses?  No, you would tell me about her.  She wakes up before me, she loves to cook, she listens to jazz, she likes red wine.  We go dancing on Friday nights, etc etc.  

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Point is, how would you respond after to the person, or God who saved you from complete annihilation? Eternally grateful or ungrateful?

 

It's actually not like that, at all. If a god is going to create me, knowing ahead of time that I am programmed to sin, as well as which sins I'd ever commit in my life, but then says that I am to blame for doing what he already knew I was going to do, why would I trust him?

 

If this god says that I deserve complete annihilation for doing what I'm programmed to do, but then he comes along one day and says, "I'll forgive you if you just repent and make me the center of your life. You no longer need to be annihilated!" I will once again have a hard time trusting him. I see no reason to show gratitude to a sadistic entity who created me for the sole purpose of screwing with my mind by making me feel like a worthless piece of garbage, only to then say that he's going to save me from my programming.

[bornagainathiest]

Perhaps Funguyrye should ask SteveBennett to help him define what a personal relationship with Jesus really is?

 

Or Steve should ask Ironhorse?

 

Or Ironhorse should ask Funguyrye?

 

Or any combination of the above?

.

.

.

For a change of pace, why don't we Lions should sit back and watch the Christians deal with each other's errors and failings... "in love"...?

 

Should make for an amusing diversion!

 

BAA

[par4dcourse]

Answer the question without quoting a meaningless fable collection fungi.

[francesco]

I wonder this so called PERSONAL relationship

Why fungi answered it with bible verses and not his PERSONAL experiences?

It's like your relationship with jesus is defined by bible

Once it is defined it lost some of its personal sense

Any personal story would fit better as an example rather than bible verse

[Pantophobia]

Piggybacking on what Margee and Marty posted, one of the big, fallible issues with "personal relationship with Jesus" is that, if one of the two individuals in a relationship is not EVER actually present in any meaningful way, it's not a relationship.

 

I can tell you about my relationship with my husband. I can explain how love and trust has grown between us through the years. I can point out conversations and important experiences we've had together that deepened our bond. I can show specific and personal things that work for us and have helped our love develop. I can list hundreds of examples of the things he's said and done to show me his love, his commitment, his respect, his desire to protect me, his desire to let me be the best person I can be. We laugh like maniacs together over shared jokes. We sleep in each other's arms. If something upsets me, I can tell him and we can have a conversation about it and find solutions. If I ask him for help, attention, reassurance, whatever, he responds. Immediately. Even when I don't ask, the way he looks at me, treats me, talks about me, or acts around me shows that he loves me.

And if you were to ask him, he could tell you these same things about me showing him how much I love him.

You could ask others to describe their "personal relationships" with partners, with family members, with friends, with work colleagues, with random people on the internet, and you will receive multiple examples of mutual interaction.

THAT is a personal relationship.

Now, try to give examples of a "personal relationship" with Jesus without using bible verses that offer any sort of comparison to what a personal relationship actually is. How many of us have shared laughs with him? How many have been able to say "Jesus, this upsets me," and he says, "Let's talk about it"? Give an example, ANY example, of a mutual interaction with God/Jesus that didn't involve 1) personal interpretation of a vagary, 2) a third-party mediator, 3) a bible verse, and/or 4) six degrees of action before there is a "response."

 

When I tell my husband I love him, he doesn't go to a random person, who then tells a neighbor, who then puts a blooming flower in my path to tell me he loves me too. That is not meaningful interaction. When I say, "I really need some help and comfort," he doesn't ignore me for months on end, and then drop a penny in my path as a "message." He doesn't live in another country and never call or talk or write or interact with me at all, but gives me a Relationship Handbook with all sorts of stories to try to interpret instead. That is not a "personal relationship."

"Personal relationship with Jesus" is contemporary Christianese which, like much religious babble, is essentially meaningless the second you even think about it just a little. 

[Ravenstar]

This thread is in no way mocking or degrading. It is sincere asking… and even goes out of it's way to extra-define the OP.

 

You sir, are extremely defensive, to the point of paranoia and reading what is NOT there.

 

and this "Yahweh revealed through his Son Yeshua", is vomit-inducing pretentiousness.

[falemon]

Onto the next thread.  Your to Christians threads are nothing more then the sole purpose of to mock, belittle, degrade, etc.  I can get that elsewhere here. 

Incorrect, my sole purpose is for clarity since some of us have been accused of "not having a personal relationship with Jesus", I thought it would make a lot of sense to define exactly what that means, since we are talking about a one way relationship.

 

I know you (or perhaps end3) has said that your relationship is two way because of your 'blessings', but either way I like clarity.

 

Feel free to draw your own conclusions, but YOU DO NOT KNOW ME, so please take back your FALSE TESTIMONY of my intentions for this thread.

[mymistake]

 

When I provided a foundational response your first reaction was you fool or something similar to it.  

 

 

You didn't provide a foundational response.  Rather you changed the subject.  "What is a personal relationship" is not addressed by "why we should have one".  This error on your part is what earned negative responses.  Now you may not like those responses but you did the deed that evoked them.

 

You have a pattern of shooting your mouth off and then whining about the results.

[MerryG]

Onto the next thread.  Your to Christians threads are nothing more then the sole purpose of to mock, belittle, degrade, etc.  I can get that elsewhere here. 

 

While I see people here getting frustrated because you're not describing your personal relationship, I don't see any belittling going on. I just see people continuing to press you to answer the original question. And yes, even helping to clarify the question.

 

That said, though, this is the Lion's Den, and you entered voluntarily. You understand as well as anybody that the rules here say you shouldn't even be here if you don't have a thick skin and aren't up for hard questioning.

[Storm]

 

 

 

 

FGR my question was to define the relationship, not explain why you think we should have a relationship.

 

No background was necessary, and worst of all you didn't even answer the question. I asked clearly to stay on topic and not derail the thread. If you can't do that then please don't turn this thread into a mini canvas for your unwanted ideas that have nothing to do with the topic.

 

I know you think we need saving, and you think there is something we don't know or understand. But what you failed to notice is that most christians don't understand, and it seems that understanding is what brought christians here.

Fair enough.

 

Deuteronomy 5:10

but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

John 14:15

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

 

John 14:23

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

 

 

Leviticus 19:18

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

 

 

Deuteronomy 6:5

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

 

 

Mark 12:28-31

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

²⁸ One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the ^[a]foremost of all?” ²⁹ Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; ³⁰ and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ ³¹ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

 

"If you love me, do what I say!"  This has got to be one of the most manipulative, guilt-inducing, control-freak tactics that has ever been invented. 

 

 

And not anything like a mutual relationship.

 

 

 

 

 

FGR my question was to define the relationship, not explain why you think we should have a relationship.

 

No background was necessary, and worst of all you didn't even answer the question. I asked clearly to stay on topic and not derail the thread. If you can't do that then please don't turn this thread into a mini canvas for your unwanted ideas that have nothing to do with the topic.

 

I know you think we need saving, and you think there is something we don't know or understand. But what you failed to notice is that most christians don't understand, and it seems that understanding is what brought christians here.

Fair enough.

 

Deuteronomy 5:10

but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

John 14:15

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

 

John 14:23

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

 

 

Leviticus 19:18

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

 

 

Deuteronomy 6:5

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

 

 

Mark 12:28-31

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

²⁸ One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the ^[a]foremost of all?” ²⁹ Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; ³⁰ and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ ³¹ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

 

"If you love me, do what I say!"  This has got to be one of the most manipulative, guilt-inducing, control-freak tactics that has ever been invented. 

 

 

And not anything like a mutual relationship.

 

No, it is pretty two way.

 

1. Deuteronomy 28:1

   [ Blessings at Gerizim ] “Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
2. Deuteronomy 28:2
   All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the Lord your God:
3. Deuteronomy 28:3
   “Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.
4. Deuteronomy 28:4
   “Blessed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground and the offspring of your beasts, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock.
5. Deuteronomy 28:5
   “Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
6. Deuteronomy 28:6
   “Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out

 

I read this and all I can think of is Sugar Daddy. That is all this relationship amounts to. Christian does x and god rewards with y. Very much like a sugar daddy who wants one thing and pays out of his abundance to get a little sumtin' sumtin'. There is a relationship there, however, it is very dysfunctional and has no genuine, equilateral relationship benefits. It is definitely not mutually satisfying, IMHO. But, to each his own.

[MerryG]

 

 

Onto the next thread.  Your to Christians threads are nothing more then the sole purpose of to mock, belittle, degrade, etc.  I can get that elsewhere here. 

 

While I see people here getting frustrated because you're not describing your personal relationship, I don't see any belittling going on. I just see people continuing to press you to answer the original question. And yes, even helping to clarify the question.

 

That said, though, this is the Lion's Den, and you entered voluntarily. You understand as well as anybody that the rules here say you shouldn't even be here if you don't have a thick skin and aren't up for hard questioning.

 

So all civility and basic human respect is thrown out the window when in here?  That would be like having amnesty places in jail where anything goes for the jail guards because the prisoners looked at them the wrong way.  Should the soldiers in Abu Ghraib be given amnesty because they were in a different country/environment.  Please, I have the thickest of skin and have withstood a bit of verbal abuse without lowering myself to that level.

 

 

You're the only one who perceives that all civility and basic respect is being thrown out the window. Yes, in fact the rules of the Lion's Den appear to me to allow exactly that, but all I'm seeing is people saying, "Just answer the question, already!"

 

You speak of having a personal relationship to your god. You tell us that we should also have one. But when we ask you to describe your personal relationship -- that is, your ongoing, daily, mutual, specific, back-and-forth relationship  with Jesus -- you can't or won't.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

When I provided a foundational response your first reaction was you fool or something similar to it.  

 

 

You didn't provide a foundational response.  Rather you changed the subject.  "What is a personal relationship" is not addressed by "why we should have one".  This error on your part is what earned negative responses.  Now you may not like those responses but you did the deed that evoked them.

 

You have a pattern of shooting your mouth off and then whining about the results.

 

Why did you want a relationship then with your wife then?  What was the meaning and purpose of it then?  Why not just stay single?  What drew you to her?  That was what I was establishing.  Defining why we need relationships will help define what our relationship will look like.

 

 

 

First and foremost she is real.  When I introduce her to other people they can see her.  When she speaks other people hear the words.  You are avoiding the issue that your relationship with Jesus is imaginary.

[Ellwood]

And another thing - 

 

In a REAL personal relationship when one party says to the other "I am leaving unless you stop me" then there is at least some real effort to reach out and assure that person of your love and commitment.

 

 

Not . . . . . . 

 

 

silence . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[falemon]

 

 

Onto the next thread.  Your to Christians threads are nothing more then the sole purpose of to mock, belittle, degrade, etc.  I can get that elsewhere here. 

Incorrect, my sole purpose is for clarity since some of us have been accused of "not having a personal relationship with Jesus", I thought it would make a lot of sense to define exactly what that means, since we are talking about a one way relationship.

 

I know you (or perhaps end3) has said that your relationship is two way because of your 'blessings', but either way I like clarity.

 

Feel free to draw your own conclusions, but YOU DO NOT KNOW ME, so please take back your FALSE TESTIMONY of my intentions for this thread.

 

Being a former preacher have you already forgotten your teachings you walked away from? 

 

When I provided a foundational response your first reaction was you fool or something similar to it.  Will not dialogue with you.  If you want a discussion, then the verbal jabs will have to cease.  Up to you.

 

Hmm,

 

The last post of mine has nothing insulting. Please explain to me how it is insulting or contains verbal jabs please or am I missing something?

 

My first post, yes, was harsh because you did not even bother to answer the question, instead you responded with an unwanted presentation that aimed not to answer the question but (what appears to me to be) to educate me on something.

 

And I asked not because I don't have an answer, but for clarity of communication.

 

As far as I'm concerned there is no Jesus to have a relationship with apart from the Jesus in your mind. Nevertheless for the sake of clear communication I just wanted it to be clearly defined by those brandishing the phrase.

 

If you find any offence from this post I really don't know what else to say!??!?!?!

[Pantophobia]

 

 

Your to Christians threads are nothing more then the sole purpose of to mock, belittle, degrade, etc.  I can get that elsewhere here. 

 

 

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that here in our community, we were meant to listen to you, someone with a clear anti-ex-Christian bias, without questioning you, and that any response that doesn't jell with your own personal beliefs was "mocking/belittling/degrading."

 

You came to our house. You pointed out that you don't like the way we've decorated, complained about the seating, are offended by the art and books we have, and hate the music. You've stomped from one room to the other, interrupted some conversations, started others and left in the middle of them. After that, you then demanded we serve you dinner. When we did, you complained about all of the food. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, WE aren't the problem in this equation.

[MerryG]

 

 

 

 

Onto the next thread.  Your to Christians threads are nothing more then the sole purpose of to mock, belittle, degrade, etc.  I can get that elsewhere here. 

 

While I see people here getting frustrated because you're not describing your personal relationship, I don't see any belittling going on. I just see people continuing to press you to answer the original question. And yes, even helping to clarify the question.

 

That said, though, this is the Lion's Den, and you entered voluntarily. You understand as well as anybody that the rules here say you shouldn't even be here if you don't have a thick skin and aren't up for hard questioning.

 

So all civility and basic human respect is thrown out the window when in here?  That would be like having amnesty places in jail where anything goes for the jail guards because the prisoners looked at them the wrong way.  Should the soldiers in Abu Ghraib be given amnesty because they were in a different country/environment.  Please, I have the thickest of skin and have withstood a bit of verbal abuse without lowering myself to that level.

 

 

You're the only one who perceives that all civility and basic respect is being thrown out the window. Yes, in fact the rules of the Lion's Den appear to me to allow exactly that, but all I'm seeing is people saying, "Just answer the question, already!"

 

You speak of having a personal relationship to your god. You tell us that we should also have one. But when we ask you to describe your personal relationship -- that is, your ongoing, daily, mutual, specific, back-and-forth relationship  with Jesus -- you can't or won't.

 

I did answer the question, just not the answer nobody wanted to hear. 

 

 

Funguy, if you believe that any of your answers above actually described a personal relationship, please point out which one. I've seen you post your foundational material, bible quotes, etc. But not a word about how you and Jesus deal with each other in a mutual, ongoing, everyday way.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

Okay, the OP was:

Christians, define for me exactly what a personal relationship is with Jesus and while we're at it what defines a relationship such that one could test for whether what one describes is actually a relationship.

 

Explain exactly how one could attempt a personal relationship with Jesus, how they can test for this in an objective manor (the bible says to test all things, but also says we are led to believe lies too).

 

Then create a fool proof test to identify this from the outside (but one can only test for people while they are christians, not after they deconvert).

 

-----

Let's give funguy an example answer so he understands the format he is supposed to use:

 

Here is what Zomberina's definition of a personal relationship with Christ used to mean:  a personal, ongoing life of discipleship that includes gradual transformation into the image of Christ.

 

There is no one on one with Christ to be tested because the relationship is the similarity/likeness to Christ, as in being Christlike. To test my likeness to Christ, on my death bed, my entire life would need to be peer reviewed for likeness to the written accounts about Christ. Since there would be a lot of metaphorical and symbolism involved as well, several theologians would have to be on the panel of peers.

 

 

This is the type of format you would need to use Funguy. (Sorry everyone if I gave him a definition of "personal relationship with Christ", it seemed he didn't have a clue.)

[MerryG]

Thanks for the try, Zomberina. But that's really not quite it.

 

A description of a relationship with Jesus would also have to include what Jesus does and how Jesus and the other person in the relationship interact. Specifically. What you describe is still one-sided. It describes would you would do, but leaves out what Jesus would do back at you. Or with you. Or for you. It leaves out the ordinary, everyday interactions that make up a relationship.

[MerryG]

 

You want an answer you can put in a laboratory to test it?  Doesn't necessarily work that way, however, in Galatians 5 it speaks of the world knowing the believer by the fruit they produce.  Good fruit produces good fruit, bad fruit produces bad fruit plain and simple. 

 

Every born-again believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit. Jesus told us that when the Comforter has come He will be with us and in us. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:16-17).

 

 

 

 

We could leave the "lab test" for later. But I'd still be grateful if you'd describe the relationship, even if you can't prove anything about it.

[falemon]

I did answer the question, just not the answer nobody wanted to hear. 

Yes, but not because it's like garlic to a vampire, but simply because we've heard it all before AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, the purpose of this thread is just to define.

 

It's not a trap, it's not a trick, it's not a trojan horse.

 

The question itself is not even an attack, it's simply, let's define a few things. Without doing so any attempt at debate is pointless as ambiguous or non-descriptive phrases that are often used just reduce the quality of dialogue.

 

 

And you exercised your free will and wasn't coerced or guilted into staying

It's not a matter of guilt, it's a matter of having a valid reason to believe.

 

The reason we don't believe is purely because there is no such reason to believe.

 

A very simple FACT is that a strong belief that greatly defies what is known about reality for which there is no proof can only be subjective and founded upon one's assumptions. So I can state that unless someone has absolute proof in christ, their belief is going to be based on something purely subjective to themselves, much like that list that SteveBennett presented.

 

And that list is quite interesting. Now I come to think of it, he seems to be suggesting that a personal relationship with Jesus is pretty much the strongest force to keep you in. And to some degree he's right. A personal relationship forged with a subject of ones own mind is a very hard bond to break!!!

[Overcame Faith]

Given that, at least to this point, no Christian can describe his/her relationship with Jesus, Christianity must be a religion and not a relationship.

[♦ ficino ♦]

When I was in the Assemblies of God, people put a lot of emphasis on what they took to be direct, extrabiblical, and individualized communication to themselves from God. They would speak easily about the Lord's leading them, giving them a burden for something, convicting them - these I understand to be ways of talking about a strong sense of conviction. Then they'd represent conversations, as "and then the Lord said... and I said... but the Lord said" People would nod and say "amen" to these portrayals of communication.

this isn't even to mention speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, etc.

So the words of the song, "He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way" were taken in virtually a literal sense.

If you really pushed someone, I think few would say they heard an audible voice. I at least don't remember anyone claiming voices. It was more that they read their strong convictions as productions of God's communication in them.

Calvinists were pretty down on this degree of personal pietism. They emphasized that the words of scripture are God's communication.

Catholics always allowed that one can receive a private revelation, but in practice, most Catholics tend to think of God as rather remote: we believe, worship and obey God, God takes care of us, but only mystics or enthusiasts think God talks to them individually (the hierarchy not surprisingly usually looks askance).

Perhaps all would think that God sets up events of life to send us messages. E.g. my nephew is trying to raise $ to go on a mission trip, and a bill of the currency of the country in question fell out of one of his books, from an earlier trip. He takes this as a message from God that "Jesus has my back" on the fundraising.

What I've written is rather vague and maybe sort of contradictory, and I'm describing, not defining. Now I think it's "all in your head."

 

-------------

 

edited to add:  some of the big guns, like Dave Wilkerson, recounted visions in great detail, and people circulated tapes of their accounts.  We aspired to reach such heights in our walk with the lord, to taste the deep things of God as DW and Paul and others said they had done.