God Is A Liar

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life.

 This is just the old "people choose to go to hell" argument dressed in nicer attire.

 

how is it invalid?

 

It is invalid because I wasn't given the opportunity to make the initial choice.  None of us were.  Adam and Eve were forced to make a decision without all of the facts and as a result my only two options are turn or burn. 

 

God chose to make hell and the rules that send people there.  Now I either have to be okay worshipping such a god or burn for all eternity.  I would willingly choose neither.

 

If the choice were given to each of us to eat this fruit or go to hell, then hell would be empty.  But that wasn't the choice, nor was it given to everyone.  The choice of condemning everyone to hell was given to two people without proper knowledge of the consequences.  Any god who would permit such a travesty deserves ridicule, not worship.  And certainly not a relationship with me.

 

I think we are going in circles. You I hear are saying that discernment for you could be made within the context of knowledge. As you earlier stated, they had no knowledge. We have the ill fortune of having knowledge.

 

It appears that both experiential knowledge and historical knowledge have now been presented of the dichotomy an neither guarantees certainty of choice. A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

 

This is the point I have been trying to make.  Why did god not allow Adam and Eve to know how truly horrific the consequences of making the wrong choice would be?  Satan took jesus to a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world; could god, being so much more powerful, not have taken Adam and Eve to the gates of hell and show them the eternal conscious torment that all of their children would face?  Could god not have done something to prevent the introduction of evil?

[midniterider]

 

Yet we still don't know why God allows the process at all.

If I am supposed to be one of god's children, then I have a right to know why god allows the process and he has an obligation to tell me.

 

 

You have a right to know and he has an obligation to tell, if we assume God loves you. Otherwise God is just cruel.

[Aggie]

 

It would follow in my mind if this were true then there would be no distinction between life and death.....everything would be permissible.

 

 

But what is not permissible with Yahweh?  Owning people, beating slaves, killing children by the sword, drowning the entire earth, burning women to death, beating children with rods, human sacrifice (Jesus), cursing all humanity because a man ate a piece of fruit, torturing great masses of people forever in hell, sending lying spirits to deceive people, sending plagues and famine, stoning people to death for picking up sticks.  These are "good" for God (or at least permissible) in many, many circumstances.  IMO, Christian fundamentalism provides no ground for absolute truth.  Rather, it only shows that, if absolute truth exists, the Bible plainly cannot be its source.

 

The hardest truth for me to face as a believer was simple: "this system of thought is probably not true."  The evidence is so overwhelming, IMO, that it is only fear and pride that kept me from realizing that doubt and honesty were the same thing.

[Guest end3]

 

A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

This is the point I have been trying to make.  Why did god not allow Adam and Eve to know how truly horrific the consequences of making the wrong choice would be?  Satan took jesus to a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world; could god, being so much more powerful, not have taken Adam and Eve to the gates of hell and show them the eternal conscious torment that all of their children would face?  Could god not have done something to prevent the introduction of evil?

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

[Roz]

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

 

Would you voluntarily end the lives of children and infants as commanded by your god?

[MerryG]

 

 

A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

This is the point I have been trying to make.  Why did god not allow Adam and Eve to know how truly horrific the consequences of making the wrong choice would be?  Satan took jesus to a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world; could god, being so much more powerful, not have taken Adam and Eve to the gates of hell and show them the eternal conscious torment that all of their children would face?  Could god not have done something to prevent the introduction of evil?

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

 

Not even like Virgil took Dante -- just to show, without the punishment? Just to make the consequences clear to them?

 

And if you think hell is too cruel a sight for children (and I actually agree with you there) ... then how can a "loving" god possibly send children -- and billions of others! -- there to endure it forever and ever and ever and ever and ever ...?

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

This is the point I have been trying to make.  Why did god not allow Adam and Eve to know how truly horrific the consequences of making the wrong choice would be?  Satan took jesus to a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world; could god, being so much more powerful, not have taken Adam and Eve to the gates of hell and show them the eternal conscious torment that all of their children would face?  Could god not have done something to prevent the introduction of evil?

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

 

Not even like Virgil took Dante -- just to show, without the punishment? Just to make the consequences clear to them?

 

And if you think hell is too cruel a sight for children (and I actually agree with you there) ... then how can a "loving" god possibly send children -- and billions of others! -- there to endure it forever and ever and ever and ever and ever ...?

 

There was a book a few years back about a lady that said she visited hell. Just reading it scared the crap out of me.

[Guest end3]

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

Would you voluntarily end the lives of children and infants as commanded by your god?

 

No.

[Roz]

 

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

Would you voluntarily end the lives of children and infants as commanded by your god?

 

No.

 

I'm glad you're still somewhat sane

[bornagainathiest]

Just fyi folks,

 

God's perfect foresight and foreknowledge means that He knew exactly who would be saved and who wouldn't, before He created anyone.

 

I've covered this, here... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/61554-there-is-no-justice-in-the-christian-concept-of-heaven-and-hell/page-3 ...in post #50.

 

So, God fails His own standards of perfect love, perfect mercy and perfect justice.

It's not loving, merciful or just of Him to create people He knows will burn for eternity.

But it would have been loving, merciful and just of Him to never created them in the first place.

 

Non-existent people cannot be wronged in any way.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

[Aggie]

 

 

 

 

A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

This is the point I have been trying to make.  Why did god not allow Adam and Eve to know how truly horrific the consequences of making the wrong choice would be?  Satan took jesus to a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world; could god, being so much more powerful, not have taken Adam and Eve to the gates of hell and show them the eternal conscious torment that all of their children would face?  Could god not have done something to prevent the introduction of evil?

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

 

Not even like Virgil took Dante -- just to show, without the punishment? Just to make the consequences clear to them?

 

And if you think hell is too cruel a sight for children (and I actually agree with you there) ... then how can a "loving" god possibly send children -- and billions of others! -- there to endure it forever and ever and ever and ever and ever ...?

 

There was a book a few years back about a lady that said she visited hell. Just reading it scared the crap out of me.

 

 

Hells are always terrifying-- by design.  I think they have been made up/used by people to engender fear so that they can control and manipulate others.  

 

What I found most helpful was reading about how different Christians (not to mention people of other religions) damn each other to various versions of hell.  The NT hell and the hell alluded to in Daniel are terrifying (with their fire and worms), but the hells of medieval Roman Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism are more explicitly horrific (although some have the "benefit" of being temporary).  I have read in a few places that some Jews denounced Jesus of Nazareth as a damnable heretic who would be boiled in excrement for his rejection of God's holy Law.  I don't believe in Jesus of Nazareth (at least in any of his supernatural forms)-- but that's clearly warped and hateful.  I'm glad that there is no reason to believe it's true.

 

Christians try to be nicer about hell these days, but historically speaking such euphemisms of "separation from God" were not standard fare.  You still see this today when believers gloat over the idea of God punishing enemies.  Take the beloved Calvinist Jonathan Edwards:

 

"The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints in heaven.  … A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure."

 

An interesting example of one of these hells is in the Divine Panorama of Taoism.  It's utterly ghastly.  One thing that can get us there is doubting the law of karma.  (Which I definitely doubt!)  Does anyone deserve such torments for a day, a week, a year?  This is one of the biggest conundrums of hell.  Generally speaking, believers think that torturing people for thought crimes for a day would be inexcusable and horrific.  But make a god the torturer and the time frame infinite, and there is no problem.  This was actually part of the logical framework of the Inquisition.  (The Inquisition not only had God's authority to torture, but was in fact "merciful" because torture brought many back to the Catholic Church so they could be saved and avoid hell.  For there was no salvation outside the Church with the dogma of the time.)

 

Here are some (disgusting) notes that I took on the Divine Panorama:

 

Burning, boiling, the rack, hacked by swords, subjected to bitter cold, attacked by beasts, thrown on spikes, intense hunger and thirst, drenched in filth, put into iron clothes, boiled in cauldrons, flayed, gouged eyes, squished innards, finger and toe nails pulled out, tormented by insects, blood sucked, bones  split, ghastly demons torment, mouths filled with needles, bitten with rats, subjected to nasty odors, chopped in half, bored with holes, tongues pulled out, hair pulled out, fingers burned with hot irons, disemboweled, boiled in oil, wrung out, tormented by wasps and maggots, “their brains are taken out and filled with hedgehogs”, “ducks eat their heart and lives”, “viscera are fried”, “”shut up in huge saucepans” “uvulas are cut off” “skulls are split and teeth dragged out”  “trampled on by mules and bitten by badgers” … boulders put on heads, pecked by birds, gored by pigs, “hung up and beaten on their feet”  “crushed to a jelly”  “muscles are cut and bones pulled out”  “made to kneel on chains and pieces of split bamboo” “sit on spikes” “mouths are choked with dust” “perpetually dosed with nasty medicines”  “so slippery they are always falling down” , dismemberment, “only have rivers of lime to drink”  tormented by “black-faced, long-tusked devils”.  Often these are hells before rebirth (reincarnation), but sometimes they last aeons and for some eternal.

 

Ironically, I think Thomas a Kempis provides some words (which when ripped out of context) apply nicely: "for all disquiet of heart and restlessness of mind come from inordinate love and groundless fear."

[MerryG]

 

 

 

 

A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

This is the point I have been trying to make.  Why did god not allow Adam and Eve to know how truly horrific the consequences of making the wrong choice would be?  Satan took jesus to a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world; could god, being so much more powerful, not have taken Adam and Eve to the gates of hell and show them the eternal conscious torment that all of their children would face?  Could god not have done something to prevent the introduction of evil?

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

 

Not even like Virgil took Dante -- just to show, without the punishment? Just to make the consequences clear to them?

 

And if you think hell is too cruel a sight for children (and I actually agree with you there) ... then how can a "loving" god possibly send children -- and billions of others! -- there to endure it forever and ever and ever and ever and ever ...?

 

There was a book a few years back about a lady that said she visited hell. Just reading it scared the crap out of me.

 

 

 

It would scare the crap out of me, too. All the descriptions of hell that I had drummed into me as a child scared the crap out of me, too. The mere threat of hell is the work of sadists.

 

But I asked two questions and you didn't answer either of them.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

A question would be why did he not super-impart knowledge and forego the horrific experience.

This is the point I have been trying to make.  Why did god not allow Adam and Eve to know how truly horrific the consequences of making the wrong choice would be?  Satan took jesus to a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world; could god, being so much more powerful, not have taken Adam and Eve to the gates of hell and show them the eternal conscious torment that all of their children would face?  Could god not have done something to prevent the introduction of evil?

 

I wouldn't have taken my children to hell to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience.

 

But you'd be okay sending them there as the consequence of disobedience?  Why?  Would it be easier on your conscience if you didn't have to see them suffer than it would if you showed them the suffering before they disobeyed?

 

I'd do anything to prevent my son getting hurt; especially if that pain was the result of doing something I told him not to do.

[Guest end3]

Not even like Virgil took Dante -- just to show, without the punishment? Just to make the consequences clear to them?

 

It would scare the crap out of me, too. All the descriptions of hell that I had drummed into me as a child scared the crap out of me, too. The mere threat of hell is the work of sadists.

 

But I asked two questions and you didn't answer either of them.

Put a quarter in my grandmother's casket when I was young for the toll to cross the river Styx. To your other question, I'm defaulting to God knows more than I do. Feel like we are called to partake in the Tree of Life, i.e. promoting those things that promote life for others. If I knew the answer I would tell you. I don't. I believe and have many reasons for believing. Don't know what else need as an answer.

[RipVanWinkle]

End3: Don't you see that that is precisely the same kind of thinking that causes fanatics to fly planes into buildings?   Look, in the last analysis you have one of two choices: You can either make up your own mind, or follow what some else tells you. When I look at the bible and see what the bible god decided to do for or on behalf of mankind or any portion thereof, I refuse to let any decision default to him. If you are going to lead your life defaulting major decisions to anyone, don't you want absolute proof that the decisions he will make are loving, forgiving , kind and reasonable? You don't default until you know that.   bill

[duderonomy]

 

Not even like Virgil took Dante -- just to show, without the punishment? Just to make the consequences clear to them?

 

It would scare the crap out of me, too. All the descriptions of hell that I had drummed into me as a child scared the crap out of me, too. The mere threat of hell is the work of sadists.

 

But I asked two questions and you didn't answer either of them.

Put a quarter in my grandmother's casket when I was young for the toll to cross the river Styx. To your other question, I'm defaulting to God knows more than I do. Feel like we are called to partake in the Tree of Life, i.e. promoting those things that promote life for others. If I knew the answer I would tell you. I don't. I believe and have many reasons for believing. Don't know what else need as an answer.

 

Why would a God need a quarter?

[Guest end3]

 

 

Not even like Virgil took Dante -- just to show, without the punishment? Just to make the consequences clear to them?

 

It would scare the crap out of me, too. All the descriptions of hell that I had drummed into me as a child scared the crap out of me, too. The mere threat of hell is the work of sadists.

 

But I asked two questions and you didn't answer either of them.

Put a quarter in my grandmother's casket when I was young for the toll to cross the river Styx. To your other question, I'm defaulting to God knows more than I do. Feel like we are called to partake in the Tree of Life, i.e. promoting those things that promote life for others. If I knew the answer I would tell you. I don't. I believe and have many reasons for believing. Don't know what else need as an answer.

 

Why would a God need a quarter?

 

Don't remember D if I was a Christian then. I am remembering that it was very important for me to do that.....probably after reading the crap in English class.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, here's a question for you End3:

 

I would never willingly allow my son to suffer, especially to the extreme that we are invited to believe hell consists of.  You said you would not even be willing to show your children the kind of suffering experienced in hell.

 

How can you worship with a god who is willing and able to do the very things neither one of us would ever consider?  Moreover, how can you reasonably encourage others to enter a relationship with such a god?

[Guest end3]

So, here's a question for you End3:

 

I would never willingly allow my son to suffer, especially to the extreme that we are invited to believe hell consists of.  You said you would not even be willing to show your children the kind of suffering experienced in hell.

 

How can you worship with a god who is willing and able to do the very things neither one of us would ever consider?  Moreover, how can you reasonably encourage others to enter a relationship with such a god?

Because the same God has the potential to send people to Heaven.....and I readily choose good over bad. And when I fail, I have faith that I may be forgiven for my bad choices.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Because the same God has the potential to send people to Heaven.....and I readily choose good over bad. And when I fail, I have faith that I may be forgiven for my bad choices.

So this just brings us back to square one.  god had the potential to send everyone to heaven but chose not to and witheld the information that would have kept evil from entering and damning the majority of us to hell.  I still don't see how you could worship such a being.

[MerryG]

.....and I readily choose good over bad.

 

No you don't. You choose belief in a specific god. You choose faith. But to claim that you choose good over bad is to smear everyone in these forums, and everyone who doesn't believe in your god. We're all "bad"? We've all deliberately chosen "bad"? Well, thanks a bunch there, End3.

 

Makes me wonder why you want to hang out here at all, since we're such murdering, raping, lying, cheating, and unrepentant "bad" old trash.

 

You're entitled to believe whatever you want. But if your own eyes don't provide evidence that many non-believers are good human beings and many believers are scum, then you're wearing bigger, thicker, darker blinders than I imagined.

 

You're entitled to your blinders, too. But I'm sorry that you feel entitled to come into this forum and insult every single person here (except perhaps a few of your christian compatriots). Oh yeah, ironhorse and SteveBennett and all "choose good." Why don't the bunch of you go off and start your own forums where you can congratulate each other on choosing "good-good-good" and cleanse yourself us us "bad" guys?

[MerryG]

Oh, and by the way, End3, if "choosing good" means siding with the worst genocidal monster and the most sadistic torturer ever imagined in all human history ... then I guess I'm content to "choose bad."

 

So maybe instead of insulting everybody here, you just paid us all an unintentional compliment.

[Guest end3]

Merry,

 

I did acknowledge that God is responsible for good and bad, yes?  So when I said I choose good over bad, that is in the context of choosing good over bad within the same God. 

 

But hey thanks ma'am, I can always use a pick me up post. 

[Guest end3]

You're a smart man Prof.  You do realize that neither side of this argument has the immediate answers you are seeking.  Apparently you have chosen Christianity for a time and now you don't.  Why, if you are an intelligent man, do you now choose the alternative knowing they don't have the answer either.  I say this because if I am looking at one piece of a puzzle and the puzzle is a 5000 piece puzzle, some folks here can't see this analogy or won't allow themselves to have faith that this is reasonable given what we DONT know about our own environment.