God Is A Liar

[Guest end3]

 

 

So now trees are imparting knowledge? Yowsa! Sounding more and more like a fairy tale the more it tries to be explained.

I would prefer you discuss politely K. Don't know that I have been disrespectful to you and would appreciate the same courtesy.

 

 

 

Comments about an idea are not attacks upon you.  The stories in the Bible are absurd.  Is there a polite way to say that?  Is there a rude way to say it?  No matter how you spin it the Bible stories are false.  And for the record my comment about willful ignorance wasn't an attack or an insult.  It was a description of a behavior.  When somebody chooses to embrace ignorance and reject knowledge that is willful ignorance.  It's not an insult but rather a behavior that should be avoided.  Why should we avoid it?  Well, that behavior can have some very bad consequences.

 

Thousands of innocent women were murdered and burned to death because some clergy choose to reject reality and lock onto the King James Bible's directive to not suffer a witch to live.  Not saying you would do the same.  I think you would not do the same.  Rather I am trying to illustrate some historical consequences of willful ignorance.  This stuff isn't harmless.

 

Not even going to respond to this MM.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

So now trees are imparting knowledge? Yowsa! Sounding more and more like a fairy tale the more it tries to be explained.

 

Thanks, this is my take

 

1. Knowledge would have been imparted through the tree.

 

2. Nature was imparted through Satan. 3. They certainly may have possessed the nature but were unknowing.

 

4.  Regardless, I don't see any way around God allowing Satan in the Garden. 5. The Captain is the Captain and goes down with the ship.

1. Didn't god walk with them in the cool of the day?  Could he not have used that time to impart knowledge to them?

 

2. Doesn't the text make it clear that they were created in the image of god?  Would that not imply that their nature was the image of god?  Satan imparted nothing but the truth that the fruit would allow them to know the difference between good and evil.

 

3.  Again, while god was walking with them in the cool of the day, could he not have used that time to explain their nature to them and the consequences of acting impulsively (death, Original Sin, and Hell)?

 

4.  "Satan, I'm omnipotent; stay the fuck out of my Garden".

 

5. The captain didn't go down with the ship; he sent his only begotten son to go down with it, instead.

 

If God wouldn't have wanted Satan there, he wouldn't have been there. Why do we assume God is not as powerful as He states?

 

Let me ask you this sincerely, anyone who wishes to answer. If you are allowing freedom to someone, what and how much are you going to tell them.

 

Let's start by defining freedom.  If the consequences are as ill-fitted to the wrong choice as Original Sin and Eternal Damnation are to eating an apple, then I declare shenanigans on calling that "freedom".

[Guest end3]

 

 

So now trees are imparting knowledge? Yowsa! Sounding more and more like a fairy tale the more it tries to be explained.

 

Thanks, this is my take

 

1. Knowledge would have been imparted through the tree.

 

2. Nature was imparted through Satan. 3. They certainly may have possessed the nature but were unknowing.

 

4.  Regardless, I don't see any way around God allowing Satan in the Garden. 5. The Captain is the Captain and goes down with the ship.

1. Didn't god walk with them in the cool of the day?  Could he not have used that time to impart knowledge to them?

 

2. Doesn't the text make it clear that they were created in the image of god?  Would that not imply that their nature was the image of god?  Satan imparted nothing but the truth that the fruit would allow them to know the difference between good and evil.

 

3.  Again, while god was walking with them in the cool of the day, could he not have used that time to explain their nature to them and the consequences of acting impulsively (death, Original Sin, and Hell)?

 

4.  "Satan, I'm omnipotent; stay the fuck out of my Garden".

 

5. The captain didn't go down with the ship; he sent his only begotten son to go down with it, instead.

 

If God wouldn't have wanted Satan there, he wouldn't have been there. Why do we assume God is not as powerful as He states?

 

Let me ask you this sincerely, anyone who wishes to answer. If you are allowing freedom to someone, what and how much are you going to tell them.

 

Let's start by defining freedom.  If the consequences are as ill-fitted to the wrong choice as Original Sin and Eternal Damnation are to eating an apple, then I declare shenanigans on calling that "freedom".

 

I'm speaking of a freedom derived through experience.....knowing.

[Kris]

Sorry if I offended you End--- but I do have to question what you are asserting. It is really crazy when you think of it. What tree today imparts any kind of knowledge? What snake talks? Why am I expected to believe this kind of thing happened in the past when it doesn't happen today? Remember--- you are in the lions den--- I am entitled to take a swipe every now and then!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm speaking of a freedom derived through experience.....knowing.

 

Are you attaching this "knowing" to eternity in hell as a result of Original Sin?

[thereisnoperfect]

End, I often find your posts difficult to understand. If you're willing, let's try this:

 

1) Are you saying that the tree, the garden, Adam and Eve, and the "Fall" are literal (there really were just two people who really ate a forbidden fruit) or figurative (it's just a story, but a story with meaning that's important)?

 

2) If literal--do you think their eating that fruit was a good thing (because it led to experience and thus to freedom) or a bad thing (because, you know, sin and death)?

 

3) If figurative, then what do you think it is figurative for? What does it stand for? In what sense did this stuff happen if not a literal one?

 

Maybe that will help me understand what we're talking about.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

If God wouldn't have wanted Satan there, he wouldn't have been there. Why do we assume God is not as powerful as He states?

 

But WHY would "God" want Satan there anyway? Could it be that both "God" and Satan were conspiring together, trying to make sure that Adam and Eve disobeyed, with the intention of bringing sin into the world? It's not much of a stretch, considering they both teamed up against Job over a bet...

[bornagainathiest]

End,

 

This freedom derived from experience, this 'knowing'...

 

...you do see that's exactly what Eve wouldn't have had, don't you?

.

.

.

 

The only experience A&E had and all they ever knew they was life in the Garden of Eden.

Adam was created to care for the garden and Eve was to be his helpmate.

They had no knowledge or experience of anything else.

That's what it means to be... an innocent.

.

.

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So your definition of freedom is something neither Adam, nor Eve had.

They weren't free to make informed decisions because they weren't informed about anything.

That's also what it means to be an innocent.

To lack freedom, to lack experience and to lack knowledge.

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.

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Scripture even confirms this.

That's why the tree was called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It was knowledge about good and evil that Adam and Eve lacked.

If they already had this knowledge, they wouldn't have bothered to eat the tree's fruit.

.

.

.

Our life experiences confirm this too.

Babes, toddlers and young kids lack an adult's wealth of knowledge and experience.

Which is why loving parents don't burden them with decisions they can't possibly understand.

"Don't touch that red button, Junior!  Doing that starts World War III!"

.

.

.

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

 

[Guest end3]

Sorry if I offended you End--- but I do have to question what you are asserting. It is really crazy when you think of it. What tree today imparts any kind of knowledge? What snake talks? Why am I expected to believe this kind of thing happened in the past when it doesn't happen today? Remember--- you are in the lions den--- I am entitled to take a swipe every now and then!

Thanks K, let me offer this. You asked about the tree and the snake. I'm certainly not meaning these things literally. I'm certain you understand. But with that I believe you can attain knowledge from a ree. We can learn that it provided shelter, gives shade, slows erosion. etc. and trust me, we have "talking" snakes here in west Texas.

 

I enjoy looking at types and patterns and comparisons. Don't ask me how I got this way, it just happened.

 

One example: River of Life. If you think about it, it could be many different things, a river or generations of people, nature constantly sustaining itself, your bloodstream.

 

I think Genesis is a mythic type tale, but also give a chance that God poofed it into existence.

[Guest end3]

 

I'm speaking of a freedom derived through experience.....knowing.

Are you attaching this "knowing" to eternity in hell as a result of Original Sin?

 

I don't know why not.

[Guest end3]

End, I often find your posts difficult to understand. If you're willing, let's try this:

 

1) Are you saying that the tree, the garden, Adam and Eve, and the "Fall" are literal (there really were just two people who really ate a forbidden fruit) or figurative (it's just a story, but a story with meaning that's important)?

 

2) If literal--do you think their eating that fruit was a good thing (because it led to experience and thus to freedom) or a bad thing (because, you know, sin and death)?

 

3) If figurative, then what do you think it is figurative for? What does it stand for? In what sense did this stuff happen if not a literal one?

 

Maybe that will help me understand what we're talking about.

to 1) unfortunately it's a mixture in my mind tisp. Some literal, some figurative, and some important meaning. I know that doesn't help.

 

to 2) I think it helps us understand that participating in "sin" has consequences. I don't think knowledge is bad.

 

to 3) figurative tsip in that we can draw meaning from the comparison.

 

Sorry, I realize this doesn't help much. I can elaborate when I have more time if you wish.

[Guest end3]

 

If God wouldn't have wanted Satan there, he wouldn't have been there. Why do we assume God is not as powerful as He states?

 

But WHY would "God" want Satan there anyway? Could it be that both "God" and Satan were conspiring together, trying to make sure that Adam and Eve disobeyed, with the intention of bringing sin into the world? It's not much of a stretch, considering they both teamed up against Job over a bet...

 

That's as good a guess as any. All I have to go on is where Jesus says that we know him like he knows God.....which is the ultimate goal I would gather. To know God is to know both good and evil yet I expect to choose good over evil. Sounds rather strange, but that's all I have.

[florduh]

I think the simple lesson of this allegory might be that once innocence is lost it cannot be regained. Ignorance may be bliss, but is that enough to satisfy anyone in the long run?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Okay, so the original question was this:

 

 

Let me ask you this sincerely, anyone who wishes to answer. If you are allowing freedom to someone, what and how much are you going to tell them.

 

 

And then there was this exchange:

 

 

 

 

I'm speaking of a freedom derived through experience.....knowing.

Are you attaching this "knowing" to eternity in hell as a result of Original Sin?

 

I don't know why not.

 

 

Now I am ready to answer the question.  If I am going to allow a created entity true freedom, which will result in eternal damnation in hell due to Original Sin, should that freedom lead to a bad decision, then I, as the creator of this entity, bear full responsibility for warning said entity to the utmost of my ability, including giving said entity full and complete disclosure of any and all details pertinent to the making of whatever decision I have laid upon the entity to make. 

 

god did not do this.  He only mentioned death; and he only mentioned it to Adam, and it was a lie.

 

It is interesting that Satan had the power to take jesus onto a high mountain and show him all the kingdoms of the world; but god, the omnipotent one, couldn't be bothered to take Adam and Eve to the gates of hell to show them how bad it really would be if they ate the fruit.

 

There's no getting around it, End3.  god failed his creation from the very beginning; he still fails his creation to this day. 

[Guest end3]

I think the simple lesson of this allegory might be that once innocence is lost it cannot be regained. Ignorance may be bliss, but is that enough to satisfy anyone in the long run?

Lol, there's an entire population who appear satisfied.

[Storm]

^^^This^^^

 

An entire population does appear to be satisfied and many of them are Christians.

[Guest end3]

Okay, so the original question was this:

 

 

 

Let me ask you this sincerely, anyone who wishes to answer. If you are allowing freedom to someone, what and how much are you going to tell them.

 

And then there was this exchange:

 

 

 

 

I'm speaking of a freedom derived through experience.....knowing.

Are you attaching this "knowing" to eternity in hell as a result of Original Sin?

 

I don't know why not.

 

 

Now I am ready to answer the question.  If I am going to allow a created entity true freedom, which will result in eternal damnation in hell due to Original Sin, should that freedom lead to a bad decision, then I, as the creator of this entity, bear full responsibility for warning said entity to the utmost of my ability, including giving said entity full and complete disclosure of any and all details pertinent to the making of whatever decision I have laid upon the entity to make. 

 

god did not do this.  He only mentioned death; and he only mentioned it to Adam, and it was a lie.

 

It is interesting that Satan had the power to take jesus onto a high mountain and show him all the kingdoms of the world; but god, the omnipotent one, couldn't be bothered to take Adam and Eve to the gates of hell to show them how bad it really would be if they ate the fruit.

 

There's no getting around it, End3.  god failed his creation from the very beginning; he still fails his creation to this day.

 

Well, I am assuming there is a message to be drawn out of the Adam 1/Adam 2 differences.....let me think it over

[Guest end3]

^^^This^^^

 

An entire population does appear to be satisfied and many of them are Christians.

I was thinking Obama voters...

[Storm]

 

^^^This^^^

 

An entire population does appear to be satisfied and many of them are Christians.

I was thinking Obama voters...

 

It fits that group as well...

[mymistake]

okay

 

 

 

Now I am ready to answer the question.  If I am going to allow a created entity true freedom, which will result in eternal damnation in hell due to Original Sin, should that freedom lead to a bad decision, then I, as the creator of this entity, bear full responsibility for warning said entity to the utmost of my ability, including giving said entity full and complete disclosure of any and all details pertinent to the making of whatever decision I have laid upon the entity to make. 

 

god did not do this.  He only mentioned death; and he only mentioned it to Adam, and it was a lie.

 

It is interesting that Satan had the power to take jesus onto a high mountain and show him all the kingdoms of the world; but god, the omnipotent one, couldn't be bothered to take Adam and Eve to the gates of hell to show them how bad it really would be if they ate the fruit.

 

There's no getting around it, End3.  god failed his creation from the very beginning; he still fails his creation to this day. 

 

It's the classic case of giving a toddler a live hand grenade.  If some adult gives a live hand grenade to a toddler, shows him exactly how to pull out the pin and tells him "Don't do that or something bad will happen" then, of course, society will hold that adult responsible.  And the reason is obvious.  The maliciousness . . . taking advantage of natural curiosity and ignorance.  To do that to a child?  But God did it to all children.  If Christian theology were true then every human child who ever was born or ever will be born was a victim of God's set up.  And in the story God was not forthcoming with information.

[Guest end3]

Well Prof, the consensus is that there is no consensus on hell. The word, what is it, aion maybe can translated age or age lasting....but it is also translated eternity. And there is another word for "forever". I am no scholar so am having pains discerning...

 

With that, I think my autonomous entity theory is in question....I don't know, maybe not. I think A&E were ok to dwell with God forever provided they didn't become knowledgeable concerning good and evil. God says that since they become one like them that they would then have access to the tree of life which God did not want to happen. So apparently they had not eaten from that one either.

 

Regardless, I gather we are untrained and potentially unworthy without the proper knowledge.

[midniterider]

 

Thanks, this is my take

 

1. Knowledge would have been imparted through the tree.

 

2. Nature was imparted through Satan. 3. They certainly may have possessed the nature but were unknowing.

 

4.  Regardless, I don't see any way around God allowing Satan in the Garden. 5. The Captain is the Captain and goes down with the ship.

 

1. Didn't god walk with them in the cool of the day?  Could he not have used that time to impart knowledge to them?

 

2. Doesn't the text make it clear that they were created in the image of god?  Would that not imply that their nature was the image of god?  Satan imparted nothing but the truth that the fruit would allow them to know the difference between good and evil.

 

3.  Again, while god was walking with them in the cool of the day, could he not have used that time to explain their nature to them and the consequences of acting impulsively (death, Original Sin, and Hell)?

 

4.  "Satan, I'm omnipotent; stay the fuck out of my Garden".

 

5. The captain didn't go down with the ship; he sent his only begotten son to go down with it, instead.

 

 

Regarding Redneck point #3, if you had told your children over and over and over that a car could run over you and kill you , would you then let your children play in the street? God would. If you saw a car headed towards your child would you just say, "Well, I told him that he would get killed like that...." ? Or would you grab your kid and yank him back into the front yard? God would let the child get run over just like he let Adam and Eve eat the fruit. 

 

If the story dont make sense to humans , why would it make sense to the creator of the universe?

 

Genesis was written by a drunk.

[bornagainathiest]

Well Prof, the consensus is that there is no consensus on hell. The word, what is it, aion maybe can translated age or age lasting....but it is also translated eternity. And there is another word for "forever". I am no scholar so am having pains discerning...

 

With that, I think my autonomous entity theory is in question....I don't know, maybe not. I think A&E were ok to dwell with God forever provided they didn't become knowledgeable concerning good and evil. God says that since they become one like them that they would then have access to the tree of life which God did not want to happen. So apparently they had not eaten from that one either.

 

Regardless, I gather we are untrained and potentially unworthy without the proper knowledge.

 

Simple question End.

 

Did Adam and Eve have "the proper knowledge" to decide to eat the fruit or not?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Well Prof, the consensus is that there is no consensus on hell.

christians are unable to agree on one of the fundamental doctrines of their religion?  Imagine my surprise!

[midniterider]

 

So now trees are imparting knowledge? Yowsa! Sounding more and more like a fairy tale the more it tries to be explained.

 

Thanks, this is my take

 

1. Knowledge would have been imparted through the tree.

 

2. Nature was imparted through Satan. 3. They certainly may have possessed the nature but were unknowing.

 

4.  Regardless, I don't see any way around God allowing Satan in the Garden. 5. The Captain is the Captain and goes down with the ship.

1. Didn't god walk with them in the cool of the day?  Could he not have used that time to impart knowledge to them?

 

2. Doesn't the text make it clear that they were created in the image of god?  Would that not imply that their nature was the image of god?  Satan imparted nothing but the truth that the fruit would allow them to know the difference between good and evil.

 

3.  Again, while god was walking with them in the cool of the day, could he not have used that time to explain their nature to them and the consequences of acting impulsively (death, Original Sin, and Hell)?

 

4.  "Satan, I'm omnipotent; stay the fuck out of my Garden".

 

5. The captain didn't go down with the ship; he sent his only begotten son to go down with it, instead.

 

If God wouldn't have wanted Satan there, he wouldn't have been there. Why do we assume God is not as powerful as He states?

 

Let me ask you this sincerely, anyone who wishes to answer. If you are allowing freedom to someone, what and how much are you going to tell them.

 

 

How much freedom did your mother or father allow you when you were small and had little knowledge of good and evil? I never allowed my child who had no knowledge of good and evil to leave the house unattended. My children were allowed more and more freedom the older they got because as they got older they understood more because their brains had developed more.

 

Adults are generally armed with a ton of information about how to keep themselves alive by the time they turn 18. Society knows that young children don't have the sophistication of adults and so should not be given total freedom or else they might do something stupid and get themselves killed. We refer to this as common sense.

 

Adam and Eve had zero knowledge of good and evil. And he set them loose and expected them to follow some rule that actually required them to break before they could even understand what the rule meant. Common sense apparently doesn't apply to the bible.