Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 And before a christian will counter with "god saved his son at the last minute!" let's throw in the story of Jeptath's sacrifice of his daughter here too. Ah, but he wasn't sacrificing his daughter out of obedience to god, which is the standard End3 is using for righteousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Ultimately the question is why God would you reject me as a person? ....and subsequent rejection of the theology. So again, acknowledging the difficult, we see(IMO), that A&E are up against sheer obedience to dwell with God. Post disobedience we see that humanity is faced with gaining a knowledge base through evolution or God's intervention. We can see that God can "prune" humanity but can't understand why God would as the human knowledge base grows.......basically I am God and you're not. Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life. Yet we still don't know why God allows the process at all. Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 "Whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering." Jg. 11:31 Pretty sure it would be the same as Abe's deal. Jep would sacrifice his daughter out of obedience to god. God held up his part of the bargain, now the human must honor his end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Ultimately the question is why God would you reject me as a person? ....and subsequent rejection of the theology. So again, acknowledging the difficult, we see(IMO), that A&E are up against sheer obedience to dwell with God. Post disobedience we see that humanity is faced with gaining a knowledge base through evolution or God's intervention. We can see that God can "prune" humanity but can't understand why God would as the human knowledge base grows.......basically I am God and you're not. Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life. Yet we still don't know why God allows the process at all. Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship? The old "shut thine mouth mortal, thou canst not know the wisdom of god" argument? -yawn- Remember that god required human executioners to do his bidding. If you were living with the Israelites back then, would you follow god and: 1. Kill little boys and old people 2. Inspect women for virginity 3. Kill the non-virgin girls, but take the virgin women alive Remember, the god of the bible required humans to use their primitive weaponry. And before you can say "but that's the old testament" remember your master said "I and my father are one." Go forth and do your god's will, christian soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Ultimately the question is why God would you reject me as a person? god would have had no reason to reject any of us had he not given himself a reason by creating Adam and Eve as sinners and then using the tree as an excuse to curse them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 So again, acknowledging the difficult, we see(IMO), that A&E are up against sheer obedience to dwell with God. Post disobedience we see that humanity is faced with gaining a knowledge base through evolution or God's intervention. god's intervention pre-disobedience could have prevented disobedience. That's one of the main points of this thread. god gave no warning concerning eternal damnation as a result of Original Sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life. This is just the old "people choose to go to hell" argument dressed in nicer attire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Yet we still don't know why God allows the process at all. If I am supposed to be one of god's children, then I have a right to know why god allows the process and he has an obligation to tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship? How can I have a relationship with someone who punishes me for the sins of another? Why would I want to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Just thinking out loud introspectively Prof. All good questions. Again, I ask MYSELF things like is this means of God teaching us of our own capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 "Whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering." Jg. 11:31 Pretty sure it would be the same as Abe's deal. Jep would sacrifice his daughter out of obedience to god. God held up his part of the bargain, now the human must honor his end. 29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” Jepthah told the lord that he would sacrifice whatever came through his door provided the lord give him victory. This is completely different from the lord commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son for no good reason other than obedience. While it could be argued that in giving Jepthah victory, god is partially responsible for the death of Jepthah's daughter, the fact that Jepthah made the bargain in the first place cannot be gotten around. Moreover, Jepthah probably expected his trusted hound to be the first to greet him; and may not have made the bargain had he known it would be his daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 But he did it regardless, to honor his part of the deal. If I held up my part of a deal, I would expect the other party deliver on their end. If you want let's just strike Jeptath from the picture, I'm ok with that, I was only making the point that people will do completely absurd and barbaric things for god. To End3, can't answer my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 So again, acknowledging the difficult, we see(IMO), that A&E are up against sheer obedience to dwell with God. Post disobedience we see that humanity is faced with gaining a knowledge base through evolution or God's intervention.god's intervention pre-disobedience could have prevented disobedience. That's one of the main points of this thread. god gave no warning concerning eternal damnation as a result of Original Sin. That is not a given. The data suggests that even knowing eternal damnation does not guarantee one over another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life. This is just the old "people choose to go to hell" argument dressed in nicer attire. how is it invalid? I hear you saying that given adequate knowledge, discernment would have been given. Chapter 3 suggests that humanity was not equal to God......like oh crap, the humans have eaten x and will not be able to handle the capability. But again the argument is why allow the process in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship?How can I have a relationship with someone who punishes me for the sins of another? Why would I want to? Look it from a different perspective. Why does God go to such extremes NOW to allow for eternal life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship?How can I have a relationship with someone who punishes me for the sins of another? Why would I want to? Look it from a different perspective. Why does God go to such extremes NOW to allow for eternal life? because, and I'm quoting here, "god is bigoted, fanatical and cruel" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 But he did it regardless, to honor his part of the deal. If I held up my part of a deal, I would expect the other party deliver on their end. If you want let's just strike Jeptath from the picture, I'm ok with that, I was only making the point that people will do completely absurd and barbaric things for god. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship?How can I have a relationship with someone who punishes me for the sins of another? Why would I want to? Look it from a different perspective. Why does God go to such extremes NOW to allow for eternal life? because, and I'm quoting here, "god is bigoted, fanatical and cruel" It would follow in my mind if this were true then there would be no distinction between life and death.....everything would be permissible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 So again, acknowledging the difficult, we see(IMO), that A&E are up against sheer obedience to dwell with God. Post disobedience we see that humanity is faced with gaining a knowledge base through evolution or God's intervention.god's intervention pre-disobedience could have prevented disobedience. That's one of the main points of this thread. god gave no warning concerning eternal damnation as a result of Original Sin. That is not a given. The data suggests that even knowing eternal damnation does not guarantee one over another. Could have. Humanity should have had the opportunity to make a fully informed choice. god did not give them that because he withheld information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life. This is just the old "people choose to go to hell" argument dressed in nicer attire. But again the argument is why allow the process in the first place. We both agree that god needs to answer this question. As his children, we have the right to know. Job may have been okay with god showing up in a whirlwind and saying, "Who are you to question me?"; but I am not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life. This is just the old "people choose to go to hell" argument dressed in nicer attire. how is it invalid? It is invalid because I wasn't given the opportunity to make the initial choice. None of us were. Adam and Eve were forced to make a decision without all of the facts and as a result my only two options are turn or burn. God chose to make hell and the rules that send people there. Now I either have to be okay worshipping such a god or burn for all eternity. I would willingly choose neither. If the choice were given to each of us to eat this fruit or go to hell, then hell would be empty. But that wasn't the choice, nor was it given to everyone. The choice of condemning everyone to hell was given to two people without proper knowledge of the consequences. Any god who would permit such a travesty deserves ridicule, not worship. And certainly not a relationship with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship?How can I have a relationship with someone who punishes me for the sins of another? Why would I want to? Look it from a different perspective. Why does God go to such extremes NOW to allow for eternal life? Look at it from a different perspective. Why does god go to such extremes to keep himself hidden away from all but those with the ability to pretend he's there if he really wants us to have eternal life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Where's the love in the destruction Lord. Is it about a balance with God himself, a relationship?How can I have a relationship with someone who punishes me for the sins of another? Why would I want to? Look it from a different perspective. Why does God go to such extremes NOW to allow for eternal life? because, and I'm quoting here, "god is bigoted, fanatical and cruel" It would follow in my mind if this were true then there would be no distinction between life and death.....everything would be permissible. Perhaps what you mean is that there would be no distinction between heaven and hell, if heaven meant eternity with a bigoted, fanatical, and cruel god. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 It would follow in my mind if this were true then there would be no distinction between life and death.....everything would be permissible. it was only saying that religious people pictures god as bigoted, fanatical and cruel whenever they say that god is love and there is no salvation outside the church/christ. Join the church/christ or risk damnation forever did it do you any good except to inflate your Christian ego? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 26, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted March 26, 2014 Then we see that humanity has the ability to decide if they want to be clothed with immortality, sown perishable, raised imperishable. And the consequences of not wanting ourselves to be raised is eternal damnation.....that is diametrically opposed to the tree of life, i.e. eternal life. This is just the old "people choose to go to hell" argument dressed in nicer attire. Chapter 3 suggests that humanity was not equal to God......like oh crap, the humans have eaten x and will not be able to handle the capability. Actually, the fact that they started out without the knowledge of good and evil demonstrates that they were not equal to god. god did have the knowledge of good and evil and allowed evil to occur anyway. We live in an evil world where evil people do evil things everyday; god lives up in heaven in a throne room surrounded by angels constantly singing his praises. Who does it seem like can't handle the capability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts