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God's Mighty Plan Of Salvation


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*Author’s note: This topic is being posted in response to Gus indicating he would enjoy a discussion on the subject.  I have made many of these same points before in other threads and do not wish to belabor them.  However, in the interest of bringing Gus up to speed, I will give a brief summation of such points.

 

GOD’S MIGHTY PLAN OF SALVATION

 

Through the awesome power of unfounded assertion, christians would have us believe any number of unsupported claims.  For example, they would insist that we accept the existence of a god, despite there being no evidence of any substance to support the existence of a god.  They would, naturally, prefer that we believe their god exists, rather than the patently ridiculous gods believed in by Hindus and Mohammedans.  When shown how his claim is just as ridiculous, the christian apologist will inevitably fall back on yet another unfounded claim, to wit: god’s existence must be accepted in faith.

 

Should we then accept, however hypothetically, the christian claim of god’s existence, we are immediately invited to believe that god has established a plan for the salvation of our immortal souls; and that all we need do is accept, again by faith, the forgiveness of our sinful ways which was purchased on our behalf by the shedding of christ’s blood during his act of supreme sacrifice.

 

But what made the death of jesus necessary?  By what catalyst did the absolute imperative that “without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin” come to be?  To find the answer, we must look back to the very beginning.

 

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.  Genesis 2&3

 

So, at first glance, it seems rather straight forward.  God commanded them not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree and they disobeyed.  Now, because of their disobedience, evil has been brought into the world and we must all labor under the heavy yoke of Original Sin. 

 

But did evil enter the world through Adam and Eve?

 

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

We see from this verse that evil was created by god.  We know that evil was present at creation since the ability to choose evil was embodied by the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  So let us examine what really happened.

 

God created Adam and placed him in a garden wherein he had planted various plants and trees, including the tree of knowledge.  God then warned Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or he would die in the same day.  But we know from Genesis 5:5 that Adam lived for 930 years.

 

Therefore, we already see that god is a liar.

 

Now we know two things: that god created evil and that god is a liar.  Clearly we are dealing with a being that cannot be trusted.  What nefarious subterfuge is he planning?  What trickery is afoot?

 

We see from the text that god warned Adam about the fruit before Eve had even been created.  We also see that Eve obviously misunderstood the warning given that she had the idea that they were not even supposed to touch the fruit.  Nowhere in the passage do we see god personally instructing Eve, nor attempting to clarify his warning to her.

 

Yet god knew that Eve would be the one to make the choice.  Why did he do nothing to prevent her choosing evil?  Moreover, why would god have expected her to make an informed, educated decision concerning evil, if she were still in a state of perfect innocence?

 

Look at the passage again.  What did Eve feel when the Serpent told her she could be LIKE GOD?  She desired the wisdom the tree would bring.  She desired the knowledge of good and evil.  She desired to rise above her station and be like god.  What she felt was envy mixed with pride.  Could she have felt these if she were actually in a state of perfect innocence?

 

The answer is “NO”.  Therefore it is only logical to conclude that Eve was never in a sinless state.  She, as did Adam, had the ability to sin from the very beginning… And god knew it.

 

That is why he did nothing to warn her.  He knew that her ability to sin would compel her to eat the fruit and unleash the evil he created.  He wanted to be able to blame both her and Adam for introducing evil into the world, despite the fact that HE CREATED IT.

 

This is how we find ourselves in need of christ’s supreme sacrifice.  god created evil and used us to unleash it upon the world.  He then blamed us for the evil and condemns us to eternal conscious torment in hell for the evil he created and sold us out to.  And he did it all, just so he could swoop in at the right moment and murder his own son in order to redeem us all from the sin with which he created us. 

 

He created the entire situation, knowing the outcome, in order to redeem us from the very situation he created.  It’s somewhat reminiscent of the cartoonish would-be hero who sets up a potential catastrophe in the hopes of saving the damsel in distress and living happily ever after with her.  Except it’s not the stuff of comedy…

 

 

*All texts pulled from http://www.biblegateway.com/

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I'm reminded of Star Trek and its multiple retconns.  Hell, forget Star Trek, take any IP.  As new writers and producers come in, there will inevitably be contradictions that can't make any damn sense when you look over the whole storyline.

 

What do these guys do?  Retconn!

 

Christianity's problem is that they try again and again to retconn their shit, but fails against biblical 'infallibility'

 

"There's no contradictions in scripture!"  

 

When presented with such, they trip over themselves to give explanations, and those explanations inevitably differ from other christians' point of views.

 

It's all very funny.

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It always makes me laugh when xtians whine about jesus dying, and sacrificing. He didn't sacrifice anything.

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It always makes me laugh when xtians whine about jesus dying, and sacrificing. He didn't sacrifice anything.

True.  Pretty much all he did was sleep off a three-day hangover.   

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Honestly, it doesn't look like a plan of salvation at all. The main story that all the books of the Bible create when put together looks like a story about a sadistic creator god playing a cruel game with his creations for his own entertainment.

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"god created evil and used us to unleash it upon the world.  He then blamed us for the evil and condemns us to eternal conscious torment in hell for the evil he created and sold us out to.  And he did it all, just so he could swoop in at the right moment and murder his own son in order to redeem us all from the sin with which he created us. 

 

He created the entire situation, knowing the outcome, in order to redeem us from the very situation he created.  "

 

This is maybe why other heroes weren't given omnipotence by their writers.  

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Prof, you can't take all that stuff literally.  Not even the rabbis do.  It's all deep, spiritual wisdom.  I'm not sure what the wisdom is, exactly, but it's deep, and it's spiritual.

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Prof, you can't take all that stuff literally.  Not even the rabbis do.  It's all deep, spiritual wisdom.  I'm not sure what the wisdom is, exactly, but it's deep, and it's spiritual.

 

That-was-so-tm9a3i.jpg

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It's funny. I've known for years that the A and E story did not make sense on a number of different

levels. But for some reason I had not considered the fact that Eve was sinful in her thoughts before she touched or ate the fruit of the tree.Pride and envy.It's so obvious once you see it. Thank you for that

RNP. It will be interesting to see how gus or some other Xtian twists your analysis around to the point

it is no longer recognizable. Good post. bill

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Prof, you can't take all that stuff literally.  Not even the rabbis do.  It's all deep, spiritual wisdom.  I'm not sure what the wisdom is, exactly, but it's deep, and it's spiritual.

True, ficino.  However, as a christian I did take it all literally, and it would seem that many of our apologists here do so as well.  As for it being deep, yeah, I usually wear waders when I write about this stuff. 

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Prof, you can't take all that stuff literally.  Not even the rabbis do.  It's all deep, spiritual wisdom.  I'm not sure what the wisdom is, exactly, but it's deep, and it's spiritual.

True, ficino.  However, as a christian I did take it all literally, and it would seem that many of our apologists here do so as well.  As for it being deep, yeah, I usually wear waders when I write about this stuff

 

yelrotflmao.gif

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GOD’S MIGHTY PLAN OF SALVATION

 

Through the awesome power of unfounded assertion, christians would have us believe any number of unsupported claims. For example, they would insist that we accept the existence of a god, despite there being no evidence of any substance to support the existence of a god. They would, naturally, prefer that we believe their god exists, rather than the patently ridiculous gods believed in by Hindus and Mohammedans. When shown how his claim is just as ridiculous, the christian apologist will inevitably fall back on yet another unfounded claim, to wit: god’s existence must be accepted in faith.

necessary? By what catalyst did the absolute imperative that “without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin” come to be? To find the answer, we must look back to the very beginning.

Two unrelated points:

 

1.) I'm greatly amused by your use of the archaic term "Mohammedans." I hope we get a chance to throw Moors and Mussulmen into the mix at some point.

 

2.) Give me some credit, for my ridiculous Gods aren't out to send your redneck mom to an eternal hell. Your redneck God Jesus, on the other hand, has a beef with my mom even though she's never had beef in her life. Who's ridiculous now? :)

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GOD’S MIGHTY PLAN OF SALVATION

 

Through the awesome power of unfounded assertion, christians would have us believe any number of unsupported claims. For example, they would insist that we accept the existence of a god, despite there being no evidence of any substance to support the existence of a god. They would, naturally, prefer that we believe their god exists, rather than the patently ridiculous gods believed in by Hindus and Mohammedans. When shown how his claim is just as ridiculous, the christian apologist will inevitably fall back on yet another unfounded claim, to wit: god’s existence must be accepted in faith.

necessary? By what catalyst did the absolute imperative that “without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin” come to be? To find the answer, we must look back to the very beginning.

Two unrelated points:

 

1.) I'm greatly amused by your use of the archaic term "Mohammedans." I hope we get a chance to throw Moors and Mussulmen into the mix at some point.

 

2.) Give me some credit, for my ridiculous Gods aren't out to send your redneck mom to an eternal hell. Your redneck God Jesus, on the other hand, has a beef with my mom even though she's never had beef in her life. Who's ridiculous now? smile.png

 

Ah Bhim, I have no beef with your gods... I have no pork with them either...  Though if they offered me a nice vindaloo, I'd take it.

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Prof, you can't take all that stuff literally.  Not even the rabbis do.  It's all deep, spiritual wisdom.  I'm not sure what the wisdom is, exactly, but it's deep, and it's spiritual.

Maybe the spiritual wisdom is that alienation, and a good deal of suffering, are products of our overreaching.  And that there are ways to bridge the alienation and cope with, sometimes even transcend, the suffering.

 

You need a lot of auxiliary insights to pull something like this out of those texts and leave the dross.  I'd rather see teachings that just go straight to the insights.

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Prof, you can't take all that stuff literally.  Not even the rabbis do.  It's all deep, spiritual wisdom.  I'm not sure what the wisdom is, exactly, but it's deep, and it's spiritual.

Maybe the spiritual wisdom is that alienation, and a good deal of suffering, are products of our overreaching.  And that there are ways to bridge the alienation and cope with, sometimes even transcend, the suffering.

 

You need a lot of auxiliary insights to pull something like this out of those texts and leave the dross.  I'd rather see teachings that just go straight to the insights.

 

The only way this story can be believed is to add a lot of ideas to it that simply aren't presented in the text.  For example, when god said Adam would die he meant it as a spiritual death.  Sure, that explains why Adam lived for 930 years, but the claim is simply not supported by the text.  When taken at face value, there is no way this story can be accepted as anything other than a myth, and not a very well written one at that.

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Hi Redneck, I like you're thinking. You are considering some important issues. Someone has just posted a very similar argument over at a Christian forum I visit.

I'm  not going to have time to respond today but I will.

Also, is there any way to respond to individual sentences rather than having to keep pasting the whole post? I would prefer to give a response to each individual point?

Thanks

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Also, is there any way to respond to individual sentences rather than having to keep pasting the whole post? I would prefer to give a response to each individual point?

Thanks

I don't know how others do it, but I quote the entire post and then just delete the parts that aren't relevant to my response. 

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Also, is there any way to respond to individual sentences rather than having to keep pasting the whole post? I would prefer to give a response to each individual point?

 

 

Yes, there is a way. What I do when replying to multiple, individual sentences is, after pressing the quote button, I copy the text written by the person I'm replying to and then remove everything but the first sentence I wish to reply to. Then, I paste the copy further down and do the same thing. It works quite well.

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*Authors note*

This is my response to Rednecks OP. When discussing these matters, I'm not here to prove God is real to anyone. We are looking at the ideas and themes in the Bible and what they actually say. I do think Redneck's argument has valid reason for debate and is well thought out, even though I disagree. With these matters, I will mention Satan, so if you don't believe in God, thats even more of a stretch but I cannot answer without it. Plus if I come across preachy, I don't mean to it's just my thoughts coming out. And thats the thing, this is ideas and probably some Gusology, but I think about these things a lot! Anyway his posts are in black and mine are in blue.

...........................................................................................................................................................................

 

But what made the death of Jesus necessary?  By what catalyst did the absolute imperative that “without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin” come to be?  To find the answer, we must look back to the very beginning.

 

Genesis 2&3

 

So, at first glance, it seems rather straight forward.  God commanded them not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree and they disobeyed.  Now, because of their disobedience, evil has been brought into the world and we must all labor under the heavy yoke of Original Sin. 

 

But did evil enter the world through Adam and Eve?

 

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

We see from this verse that evil was created by god.

 

This verse from Isiah only uses the word evil in maybe two translations including the King James. But in most it does not. It uses words such as darkness, calamity and disaster which is the correct translation of the Hebrew text.

We can clearly see in some examples of the Old Testament such as the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gommorah that God can indeed bring disaster and calamity.

This is the only verse, in maybe 2 translations that say God created evil. There are hundreds in all tranlations that say God hates evil.

So did God create evil? No he did not.

 

We know that evil was present at creation since the ability to choose evil was embodied by the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 

Evil is not a product, it can’t just be present. It is the absence of good. God would have known what evil people could do and how evil destroys lives. So it did not exist, it was knowledge of what would happen.

 

So let us examine what really happened.

 

God created Adam and placed him in a garden wherein he had planted various plants and trees, including the tree of knowledge.  God then warned Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or he would die in the same day.  But we know from Genesis 5:5 that Adam lived for 930 years.

 

Therefore, we already see that god is a liar.

 

Again this is down to translation. Some Bibles don’t have the word day. The Hebrew word used here meant a ‘yom’ not a 24 hour day. A yom is a period of time. When God said he would die, he meant it. He did not say ‘today’ he said ‘this day’ or ‘this yom’, meaning a period of time.

 

Now we know two things: that god created evil and that god is a liar. 

I have shown that is not true. It is not what the Bible actually says.

 

We see from the text that god warned Adam about the fruit before Eve had even been created.  We also see that Eve obviously misunderstood the warning given that she had the idea that they were not even supposed to touch the fruit.  Nowhere in the passage do we see god personally instructing Eve, nor attempting to clarify his warning to her.

Just because you don’t read it, does not mean that conversation did not take place. God could well have instructed her. You are making an assumption.

She did not mis-understand. Satan was influencing her thoughts, as we will see in a bit.

 

Yet god knew that Eve would be the one to make the choice.  Why did he do nothing to prevent her choosing evil?  Moreover, why would god have expected her to make an informed, educated decision concerning evil, if she were still in a state of perfect innocence?

Eve was not on her own. Adam was right by her side. God told them what to do, it was up them to follow that or not.

Neither Adam or Eve knew of evil at the time, as they where, as you say , in a sinless state, and had not yet had knowledge of good and evil……

 

Look at the passage again.  What did Eve feel when the Serpent told her she could be LIKE GOD?  She desired the wisdom the tree would bring.  She desired the knowledge of good and evil.  She desired to rise above her station and be like god.  What she felt was envy mixed with pride.  Could she have felt these if she were actually in a state of perfect innocence?

Again a huge assumption. As we where not there we have any idea what anyone was thinking or feeling.

The only thing the Bible says is that Eve thought the fruit was pleasing to the eye and desirable for gaining knowledge. There was no harm in gaining knowledge in her eyes as God had just given them the earth to go out and discovery and learn all about.

It was not pride; it was Satan lying to her.

 

Satan’s introduction line was “Did God really say…?” he was trying to make Eve believe that god was a liar. That’s when Eve mentions about touching the fruit in her response. God never said that, but she was starting to have doubt put in her mind.

 

The answer is “NO”.  Therefore it is only logical to conclude that Eve was never in a sinless state.  She, as did Adam, had the ability to sin from the very beginning… And god knew it.

The answer is “YES”. Even Jesus, who was sinless perfection, had doubts. But he did not act on them. Eve doubted after being pressured by Satan, and then gave in.

Satan tried the exact same tactic with Jesus in the dessert, asking him “if you are really….”

 

That is why he did nothing to warn her.  He knew that her ability to sin would compel her to eat the fruit and unleash the evil he created.  He wanted to be able to blame both her and Adam for introducing evil into the world, despite the fact that HE CREATED IT.

 

This is how we find ourselves in need of Christ’s supreme sacrifice.  God created evil and used us to unleash it upon the world.  He then blamed us for the evil and condemns us to eternal conscious torment in hell for the evil he created and sold us out to.  And he did it all, just so he could swoop in at the right moment and murder his own son in order to redeem us all from the sin with which he created us. 

 

He created the entire situation, knowing the outcome, in order to redeem us from the very situation he created.  It’s somewhat reminiscent of the cartoonish would-be hero who sets up a potential catastrophe in the hopes of saving the damsel in distress and living happily ever after with her.  Except it’s not the stuff of comedy…

 

That is quite a plan!

You have missed out an important person in all of this, that being Satan, or Lucifer, as he was known at the time.

 

The cause of all sin was Satan, and Satan alone. Adam and eve must have been made perfect. Otherwise God has either made an error, or purposefully made them sinful. Neither of which are in anyway scriptural. He did however give them freedom of choice.

 

Even Satan was created perfect and blameless. I don’t know if we can really answer why Satan had iniquity found in him, or why he became full of lust for power, but it happened. Ezekiel 28: 12-19

 

I will say that if I talk on the area of the devil, angels etc., I don't have the full picture on what happened, so I can't say I'm right and you can disagree.

 

If we understand Gods character we know that he hates evil. He does not want us to experience it. He would not create the Devil to go after us so that he could activate his salvation plan and we have to turn to him.

That's a bit like a gangster saying if you give him money, he will protect you. But don't and you will be in trouble.

Are Christians following God the father, or the Godfather?

 

God created Lucifer. An Angel. Angels also have free choice to do good or evil. We can see this as many angels followed Lucifer.

Lucifer was most likely sent to the garden to minster and care for Adam and Eve. He had not yet fallen.

If God put Adam and Eve in with the Devil as a dangerous adversary, it would be foolish.

But somewhere, Lucifer saw an opportunity to gain power. Knowing he could never take on God directly, he saw God give earth to Adam.

So he saw this as an opportunity to gain power by taking it from Adam. Hence why he is called the ‘prince of this earth’.

God could not just take it back, as it was legally satan’s now, and God does not go back on his word.

So Jesus had to come to take it back as a man, as it had been given to man.

 

Lucifer, now Satan, is the author of the evil we see, not God. And he often uses that evil in an attempt to turn people from God. It was a tactic we can clearly see in Job. And it’s why so many people now say, 'if there is a God, why is there so much evil in the world?’ and reject the idea of a loving God.

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(supposedly) Yahweh created everything… no other being has creative powers. So yes, god created evil. Though technically El was the creator.. and Yahweh is not El - though it ended up that they were melded into one.

 

Lucifer was not the author of evil. The satan was one of god's host who played a role in the heavenly court…he did god's bidding, haven't you read Job? What God did to Job was cruel and evil and narcissistic.

 

If you believe in a literal Adam and Eve.. well, the conversation is pretty much moot - because that is ridiculous.

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Christian Apologetics are a hoot, particularly from one as self-assured of his correctness as Gus.  Yes, Gus has it all figured out, at least according to Gus.

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Christian Apologetics are a hoot, particularly from one as self-assured of his correctness as Gus.  Yes, Gus has it all figured out, at least according to Gus.

 

If gus and thumby ever mated, think about the hell their children will go through

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Christian Apologetics are a hoot, particularly from one as self-assured of his correctness as Gus.  Yes, Gus has it all figured out, at least according to Gus.

 

If gus and thumby ever mated, think about the hell their children will go through

 

 

 

Actually Gus strikes me as one of our nicer Christian visitors.  Sure he has that old time religion.  But compare his methods with FGR, JayL or perhaps OC.

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Christian Apologetics are a hoot, particularly from one as self-assured of his correctness as Gus.  Yes, Gus has it all figured out, at least according to Gus.

 

If gus and thumby ever mated, think about the hell their children will go through

 

 

 

Actually Gus strikes me as one of our nicer Christian visitors.  Sure he has that old time religion.  But compare his methods with FGR, JayL or perhaps OC.

 

 

True, he's nicer than some, but think of the children's indoctrination if gus and thumby knew each other biblically.

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Christian Apologetics are a hoot, particularly from one as self-assured of his correctness as Gus.  Yes, Gus has it all figured out, at least according to Gus.

I stated that I was dissucssing the themes that Redneck brought up and in fact asked me if I would like to have this thread started.

 

So I give a response and get the usual 'Gus is right according to Gus etc...'

Redneck starts with a bold OP with several unsubstantiated claims and gets 'yeah great post bro whoo!!' (or something to that ened)

Not exactly showing impartiality.

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