Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 11, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefungus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 11, 2014 Moderator Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. Or perhaps that is why man created God with those same qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. So God is a flawed, ignorant, impotent being who is just following his animal instincts. Okay . . . I think it makes more sense to see God as a fictional character but to each his own. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefungus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. So God is a flawed, ignorant, impotent being who is just following his animal instincts. Okay . . . I think it makes more sense to see God as a fictional character but to each his own. No we are, I look to God, who is perfect, to guide, teach and how to live in this unloving, uncaring, immoral world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. So God is a flawed, ignorant, impotent being who is just following his animal instincts. Okay . . . I think it makes more sense to see God as a fictional character but to each his own. No we are, I look to God, who is perfect, to guide, teach and how to live in this unloving, uncaring, immoral world. You failed. You use a species who are flawed, ignorant, mostly powerless and following their animal instincts to make excuses for a being who is suppose to be all knowing, all powerful and all good. If God is perfect then you can't use an analogy about humans having children to excuse God's mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 11, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. No, that's a poor analogy, Fungi. If I had created an abusive or dysfunctional home life and then brought kids into it, maybe your analogy could be stretched to fit. As it is, I had no say about the broader circumstances into which I brought my son. So, while I did know that the world we live in is cruel, it was/is the only possible world into which I could bring my son. god, on the other hand, not only created his "children"; he also created the circumstances into which those "children" were brought. That is the first point at which your analogy fails. I neither created, nor had much control over, the world in which my son lives. god, we are invited to believe, had total control. Then there's the idea that god set up a scenario in which it was impossible for his "children" not to fail. Sure, I occasionally get a bit mischievous and play little tricks on my boy; but I could never dream of being so sadistic as to place his life, let alone his immortal "soul", in danger. I simply want him to know how to keep his wits in this cruel world. That, for me, is the responsibility of any good parent. But, as we have clearly shown, god sent his "children" into the world completely unprepared. Furthermore, it was demonstrated, both during this thread and during your previous incarnation on this website, that god is, indeed, the narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others. Your comparing me to him is quite an honor, though it is also a poor comparison, as I only take delight in the mundane discomforts of first world people, such as the occasional stubbed toe. Lastly, while you have read a lot into my motivation for becoming a father, and possibly super-imposed some of your own motivations, you should remember that I am a biologist and an evolutionist. While I do love my son more than my own life, I was motivated by the evolutionary imperative and by the desire that my species survive, as much as I was by the possibility of experiencing a kind of love of which I had no previous experience. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. So God is a flawed, ignorant, impotent being who is just following his animal instincts. Okay . . . I think it makes more sense to see God as a fictional character but to each his own. No we are, I look to God, who is perfect, to guide, teach and how to live in this unloving, uncaring, immoral world. How exactly do you define "perfect", then? Does a perfect parent set their children up to fail and then blame them for failing, just as they already knew they would? Does a perfect parent behave like a hypocrite, killing and torturing his own children when they offend him, while also teaching his children that it is wrong to do the very same thing, for the same reasons? Does a perfect parent kill and torture their own children for misbehavior? Does a perfect parent stand and watch, yet do nothing, when one of their children is being tortured for no good reason (like in the book of Job, for instance)? Does a perfect parent also talk down to those children or yell at them if they ask their father why he did nothing to help while they were suffering? How do you define perfection? In the Bible, your god constantly behaves like the ultimate worst that humanity has to offer, except he's worse, because the humans that believe in him think that he is omniscient and omnipotent. Your god even admits to being the inventor of evil in the Bible. Not only that, but, despite being omniscient and omnipotent, he create lower beings that he knew beforehand were going to end up being born in a fallen world with a programming to break his arbitrary rules. How can you possibly think that your god is any better than we are? Either your god is the invention of humans and humans have given him all of their flaws, their cruelty, and their tendency to favor those who are a part of their group, or it is the other way around and your god is just as flawed as we are, which would explain why his creations are so horrible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefungus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. No, that's a poor analogy, Fungi. If I had created an abusive or dysfunctional home life and then brought kids into it, maybe your analogy could be stretched to fit. As it is, I had no say about the broader circumstances into which I brought my son. So, while I did know that the world we live in is cruel, it was/is the only possible world into which I could bring my son. god, on the other hand, not only created his "children"; he also created the circumstances into which those "children" were brought. That is the first point at which your analogy fails. I neither created, nor had much control over, the world in which my son lives. god, we are invited to believe, had total control. Then there's the idea that god set up a scenario in which it was impossible for his "children" not to fail. Sure, I occasionally get a bit mischievous and play little tricks on my boy; but I could never dream of being so sadistic as to place his life, let alone his immortal "soul", in danger. I simply want him to know how to keep his wits in this cruel world. That, for me, is the responsibility of any good parent. But, as we have clearly shown, god sent his "children" into the world completely unprepared. Furthermore, it was demonstrated, both during this thread and during your previous incarnation on this website, that god is, indeed, the narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others. Your comparing me to him is quite an honor, though it is also a poor comparison, as I only take delight in the mundane discomforts of first world people, such as the occasional stubbed toe. Lastly, while you have read a lot into my motivation for becoming a father, and possibly super-imposed some of your own motivations, you should remember that I am a biologist and an evolutionist. While I do love my son more than my own life, I was motivated by the evolutionary imperative and by the desire that my species survive, as much as I was by the possibility of experiencing a kind of love of which I had no previous experience. The highlighted part is where I believe God's motivation for creating us was. What fun is a blow up doll when it has no response to touch, sound, sight, taste? Maybe that's what God wanted as well, a chance to dwell with his creation and children dictated by choice and free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. No, that's a poor analogy, Fungi. If I had created an abusive or dysfunctional home life and then brought kids into it, maybe your analogy could be stretched to fit. As it is, I had no say about the broader circumstances into which I brought my son. So, while I did know that the world we live in is cruel, it was/is the only possible world into which I could bring my son. god, on the other hand, not only created his "children"; he also created the circumstances into which those "children" were brought. That is the first point at which your analogy fails. I neither created, nor had much control over, the world in which my son lives. god, we are invited to believe, had total control. Then there's the idea that god set up a scenario in which it was impossible for his "children" not to fail. Sure, I occasionally get a bit mischievous and play little tricks on my boy; but I could never dream of being so sadistic as to place his life, let alone his immortal "soul", in danger. I simply want him to know how to keep his wits in this cruel world. That, for me, is the responsibility of any good parent. But, as we have clearly shown, god sent his "children" into the world completely unprepared. Furthermore, it was demonstrated, both during this thread and during your previous incarnation on this website, that god is, indeed, the narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others. Your comparing me to him is quite an honor, though it is also a poor comparison, as I only take delight in the mundane discomforts of first world people, such as the occasional stubbed toe. Lastly, while you have read a lot into my motivation for becoming a father, and possibly super-imposed some of your own motivations, you should remember that I am a biologist and an evolutionist. While I do love my son more than my own life, I was motivated by the evolutionary imperative and by the desire that my species survive, as much as I was by the possibility of experiencing a kind of love of which I had no previous experience. The highlighted part is where I believe God's motivation for creating us was. What fun is a blow up doll when it has no response to touch, sound, sight, taste? Maybe that's what God wanted as well, a chance to dwell with his creation and children dictated by choice and free will. There can be no free will if your god already knows everything that will happen before it happens. If he already knows every choice we will make, every decision we will make, and every thought we will think before we think it, then he must have either planned everything beforehand, or is powerless to change the future (in which case, he would not be omnipotent, therefore, could not be a god). If he already knows the future, then none of us can surprise him. When people go to Heaven, your god would have known before they were born that they would end up there. When people go to Hell, same deal. He would have known beforehand what every dictator, serial killer, or terrorist would become before they were born and where they'd end up after death, but created all of them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. No, that's a poor analogy, Fungi. If I had created an abusive or dysfunctional home life and then brought kids into it, maybe your analogy could be stretched to fit. As it is, I had no say about the broader circumstances into which I brought my son. So, while I did know that the world we live in is cruel, it was/is the only possible world into which I could bring my son. god, on the other hand, not only created his "children"; he also created the circumstances into which those "children" were brought. That is the first point at which your analogy fails. I neither created, nor had much control over, the world in which my son lives. god, we are invited to believe, had total control. Then there's the idea that god set up a scenario in which it was impossible for his "children" not to fail. Sure, I occasionally get a bit mischievous and play little tricks on my boy; but I could never dream of being so sadistic as to place his life, let alone his immortal "soul", in danger. I simply want him to know how to keep his wits in this cruel world. That, for me, is the responsibility of any good parent. But, as we have clearly shown, god sent his "children" into the world completely unprepared. Furthermore, it was demonstrated, both during this thread and during your previous incarnation on this website, that god is, indeed, the narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others. Your comparing me to him is quite an honor, though it is also a poor comparison, as I only take delight in the mundane discomforts of first world people, such as the occasional stubbed toe. Lastly, while you have read a lot into my motivation for becoming a father, and possibly super-imposed some of your own motivations, you should remember that I am a biologist and an evolutionist. While I do love my son more than my own life, I was motivated by the evolutionary imperative and by the desire that my species survive, as much as I was by the possibility of experiencing a kind of love of which I had no previous experience. The highlighted part is where I believe God's motivation for creating us was. What fun is a blow up doll when it has no response to touch, sound, sight, taste? Maybe that's what God wanted as well, a chance to dwell with his creation and children dictated by choice and free will. Fail! God is complete in of Himself. He has no needs or requirements that need satisfying outside of Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefungus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 "I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have That's my take. " thefungus My gawd,. Your analogy is way, way off. God created (hypothetically) humans into a system he knew would certainly torture most humans forever after living (for may of us) poverty stricken lives on earth. TORTURE FOR ETERNITY. That is cruel beyond comprehension. Our life here on earth is both good and bad. For some of us, it is mostly good and for others it is mostly bad. The majority of people who have babies want to have them because they believe they can love them and provide for them enough for them to be happy. Some believe their kids will be Xians and therefore go to heaven. Others (the unfortunate ignorant) have babies and they don't know how it happened. Others just wanted sex which (according to your belief) is the most enjoyable thing people can enjoy, which is how god made us. I can't imagine anybody having babies whom they knew for certain would be tortured forever. That degree of cruelty is reserved for the Xtian god. That's something the parents can't know, anyway. Again, under the Xtian belief system, people go to heaven who believe in christ. So, the parents don't know whether their child will go to heaven or hell. But god KNOWS which of his creatures will go to hell and doesn't give a shit. Humans are far less vindictive their their god. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Just deal with the ****ing points! Don't dodge them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. No. No, it's not. That's not the same logic at all. You've provided only one point of contact between the Prof and God, while dodging the MAJOR differences that make your comparison unworkable, illogical and deeply insulting to TheRedNeckProfessor and his family. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Just deal with the ****ing points! Don't dodge them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. (BUMP!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefungus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Just deal with the ****ing points! Don't dodge them! Nice to see you again to BAA. The point is this, over my time here previously, maybe not by yourself, but by a good majority of the other members here criticize this God they don't believe in, and mock and bewail about why this God created us KNOWING there would be pain, anguish, sorrow, heartache and every other miserable condition one can think of, yet go ahead with it anyways. He has been charged and convicted for narcissism, tyranny and evil for creating a world that has brought forth the horrible conditions in this world, past, present and future. Yet we continue to reproduce knowing there will be wars, knowing some of our children will get raped, knowing some will turn to drugs and alcohol, knowing some will have mental illness, knowing some will murder, lie, rape, cheat, steal, so why do we continue to produce children knowing the above is what they are facing? If you want to charge and convict God for the above crime, be prepared to turn that finger around back at you and do the same for every man, woman and child who has ever brought anybody into this world. Knowing that we do not have foreknowledge like God then, is it even more irresponsible to bring forth children not knowing what tomorrow will bring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Because the drive to procreate in any animal is undeniably strong.. it's the survival instinct of the species. It's evolution. And if you think the world is so bad why are you still here? I happen to think this world is amazing and beautiful and I relish each and every experience, painful or blissful and everything in between, and I think the same of the human species… so flawed, yet so capable of love, dignity, art, music, thought.. exploration, compassion. It's bittersweet, and worth every damned minute. I did not ask to be born… neither did my daughter - but I take responsibility for bringing her into the world - as far as I can - and could NEVER imagine harming her in any way, no matter what. That's the difference. I don't see the world as terrible.. yet I've noticed most christians do.. odd. Lot's of self-hatred going on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Just deal with the ****ing points! Don't dodge them! Nice to see you again to BAA. The point is this, over my time here previously, maybe not by yourself, but by a good majority of the other members here criticize this God they don't believe in, and mock and bewail about why this God created us KNOWING there would be pain, anguish, sorrow, heartache and every other miserable condition one can think of, yet go ahead with it anyways. He has been charged and convicted for narcissism, tyranny and evil for creating a world that has brought forth the horrible conditions in this world, past, present and future. Yet we continue to reproduce knowing there will be wars, knowing some of our children will get raped, knowing some will turn to drugs and alcohol, knowing some will have mental illness, knowing some will murder, lie, rape, cheat, steal, so why do we continue to produce children knowing the above is what they are facing? If you want to charge and convict God for the above crime, be prepared to turn that finger around back at you and do the same for every man, woman and child who has ever brought anybody into this world. Knowing that we do not have foreknowledge like God then, is it even more irresponsible to bring forth children not knowing what tomorrow will bring? Fungi, By the logic of your initial comparison, the Prof is exactly the same as an amoeba - because both have contributed genetic material to their descendants. That's one and only one point of contact between two things that are being compared. Before you can make a valid comparison between God and the Prof and before you can draw any conclusions, - you have to demonstrate that the comparison is valid on more than one point of contact. I demonstrated just one point of contact with my Prof / amoeba comparison. THAT was not valid. Nor is your Father-God / Father - Prof comparison. Justify the comparison or withdraw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Just deal with the ****ing points! Don't dodge them! Nice to see you again to BAA. The point is this, over my time here previously, maybe not by yourself, but by a good majority of the other members here criticize this God they don't believe in, and mock and bewail about why this God created us KNOWING there would be pain, anguish, sorrow, heartache and every other miserable condition one can think of, yet go ahead with it anyways. He has been charged and convicted for narcissism, tyranny and evil for creating a world that has brought forth the horrible conditions in this world, past, present and future. Yet we continue to reproduce knowing there will be wars, knowing some of our children will get raped, knowing some will turn to drugs and alcohol, knowing some will have mental illness, knowing some will murder, lie, rape, cheat, steal, so why do we continue to produce children knowing the above is what they are facing? If you want to charge and convict God for the above crime, be prepared to turn that finger around back at you and do the same for every man, woman and child who has ever brought anybody into this world. Knowing that we do not have foreknowledge like God then, is it even more irresponsible to bring forth children not knowing what tomorrow will bring? We criticize this god because the believers claim that their god is wonderful and then try to convince others that they MUST believe in their god. It is important for those of us who know otherwise to expose the product that Christian salesmen try to sell. What you have failed to do, however, is acknowledge the fact that your god purposefully designed a system in which his creations would end up in a fallen state, causing each new generation to be born with a programming to break his arbitrary rules, only to blame them for having that programming. You have also failed to acknowledge that your god admits to being the inventor of evil, in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefungus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Just deal with the ****ing points! Don't dodge them! Nice to see you again to BAA. The point is this, over my time here previously, maybe not by yourself, but by a good majority of the other members here criticize this God they don't believe in, and mock and bewail about why this God created us KNOWING there would be pain, anguish, sorrow, heartache and every other miserable condition one can think of, yet go ahead with it anyways. He has been charged and convicted for narcissism, tyranny and evil for creating a world that has brought forth the horrible conditions in this world, past, present and future. Yet we continue to reproduce knowing there will be wars, knowing some of our children will get raped, knowing some will turn to drugs and alcohol, knowing some will have mental illness, knowing some will murder, lie, rape, cheat, steal, so why do we continue to produce children knowing the above is what they are facing? If you want to charge and convict God for the above crime, be prepared to turn that finger around back at you and do the same for every man, woman and child who has ever brought anybody into this world. Knowing that we do not have foreknowledge like God then, is it even more irresponsible to bring forth children not knowing what tomorrow will bring? Fungi, By the logic of your initial comparison, the Prof is exactly the same as an amoeba - because both have contributed genetic material to their descendants. That's one and only one point of contact between two things that are being compared. Before you can make a valid comparison between God and the Prof and before you can draw any conclusions, - you have to demonstrate that the comparison is valid on more than one point of contact. I demonstrated just one point of contact with my Prof / amoeba comparison. THAT was not valid. Nor is your Father-God / Father - Prof comparison. Justify the comparison or withdraw it. The Prof said something to the effect of he loves his son more than he loves his own life. Essentially saying he would die for his son if he had to. Where or where have we heard that before? Isn't the greatest act of love is to lay down one's life for somebody else? That's the same thing the bible God says and the same thing the Prof says. So the comparison is very valid. Wonder why the saying is God the Father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So, Fungi, now that you're back, perhaps we could have your take on this topic? From your first post, what would you want my take on first? Good? Evil? God creating evil? I think I remember you saying you had children. Right? Why didn't you just buy some Ken and Barbie dolls and call them your kids instead of bringing kids into this imperfect, increasingly immoral, violent world? Spare them the pain of this cold, cruel and twisted world. Why did you have kids then? Are you some narcissist that takes pleasure in the suffering of others? I think you know, or should know where I am going with this. Calling God cruel and sick for knowing we would sin and would face a lifetime of misery when he created us, is the same as calling you sick and demented when you brought children into this fallen and harsh world. You know the world's present circumstances, and you still went along and did it anyways. Why then? Maybe because having children is an outward expression of our NEED to have purpose, to show and give love, to have the image of us and our spouses living for subsequent generations. Maybe that is why God created us, so he could love us and we him. That's my take. IS THE SAME...? Please justify your comparison of God and the Prof, Fungi, remembering the following points. 1. God has perfect foreknowledge and the Prof doesn't. 2. God has all power and can create universes by speaking them into existence - the Prof is just a man. 3. God creates people just to show His glory - but the Prof is just a man. 4. God is perfect and never makes a mistake - but the Prof is just a man. 5. God created evil - but the Prof is just a man. 6. God punishes billions with eternal hellfire - but the Prof is just a man. . . . So, the Prof deserves to be called cruel and sick, but God doesn't? Ok then, justify your comparison, Fungi. Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. Just deal with the ****ing points! Don't dodge them! Nice to see you again to BAA. The point is this, over my time here previously, maybe not by yourself, but by a good majority of the other members here criticize this God they don't believe in, and mock and bewail about why this God created us KNOWING there would be pain, anguish, sorrow, heartache and every other miserable condition one can think of, yet go ahead with it anyways. He has been charged and convicted for narcissism, tyranny and evil for creating a world that has brought forth the horrible conditions in this world, past, present and future. Yet we continue to reproduce knowing there will be wars, knowing some of our children will get raped, knowing some will turn to drugs and alcohol, knowing some will have mental illness, knowing some will murder, lie, rape, cheat, steal, so why do we continue to produce children knowing the above is what they are facing? If you want to charge and convict God for the above crime, be prepared to turn that finger around back at you and do the same for every man, woman and child who has ever brought anybody into this world. Knowing that we do not have foreknowledge like God then, is it even more irresponsible to bring forth children not knowing what tomorrow will bring? Fungi, By the logic of your initial comparison, the Prof is exactly the same as an amoeba - because both have contributed genetic material to their descendants. That's one and only one point of contact between two things that are being compared. Before you can make a valid comparison between God and the Prof and before you can draw any conclusions, - you have to demonstrate that the comparison is valid on more than one point of contact. I demonstrated just one point of contact with my Prof / amoeba comparison. THAT was not valid. Nor is your Father-God / Father - Prof comparison. Justify the comparison or withdraw it. The Prof said something to the effect of he loves his son more than he loves his own life. Essentially saying he would die for his son if he had to. Where or where have we heard that before? Isn't the greatest act of love is to lay down one's life for somebody else? That's the same thing the bible God says and the same thing the Prof says. So the comparison is very valid. Wonder why the saying is God the Father? Oh please... The death of Jesus isn't a sacrifice. If, indeed, he and "God the Father" are one, then he basically killed himself and then brought himself back to life to rule as god forever. For a human to lay down their life for their kid, when we cannot be certain whether or not there is an afterlife, meaning there is a chance for this parent to be dead forever, that would be an actual sacrifice. You keep comparing apples to pineapples. They're not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 11, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted August 11, 2014 Actually, Fungi, your comparison fails for yet another reason. Neither god nor myself created my son. He is the product of IVF, which means science created him. However, even if he had been conceived naturally, I would have only been a contributor, not a creator. And, no, the fact that I would lay down my life for my son means nothing if I am the one who placed him into the very situation which made such death necessary. Your analogy has thus failed on just about every level imaginable. As BAA said, either justify it or withdraw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Both are Fathers. And I don't use that term lightly. Both love, care, adore, and would DIE for our own children. We are more like the bible God then what we want to admit. Calling what you call this so called God sick, evil and twisted for creating us for a lifetime of misery, is the same logic then we would have to look into ourselves for bringing children into this world knowing there will be pain and death for our children. If you can't see the deeper meaning to the point I am drawing instead of getting hung up on the minor details, then I cannot communicate any more clearer and will have to bow out of this discussion. You are being dishonest. They are very different things but you choose to ignore the differences even when they are pointed out to you. It is not the same logic at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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