Exploring Buddhism

[Deidre]

Okay, no rush. lol Hope you're having a good time.

I have read very little about the observer/witness concept...and it is confusing in that supposedly, the two are not separate from the other? Look forward to your explanation.

[Antlerman]

I got back today and am trying to adjust to returning to the world, as it were. Wonderful retreat for myself with 5 days alone. The lake, reading, bike trail, meditation, etc. Still adjusting and integrating what was opened for me. Hard to explain, and in time I can share. Very hard to leave, but all part of my growing. Some very deep moments. For now, I'll just share this one photo I took of the lake at sunset I was on. I think it will convey. I'll have to share about the owl who met me in the woods, later.

 

I'll return to this later as promised. (click on the image to see it full screen).

 

[Antlerman]

OK, here's the owl. Interesting encounter.

 

[Antlerman]

Forgive me, one last photo of the lake on one of the nights. Take it in, and let it go. Hard for me to do at times. Hanging on.... alas.

 

 

I wish you Peace, and I will return later.

[Orbit]

I would upvote those if i could--beautiful. I'm glad you were able to get time alone like that, it must have been wonderful.

[Deidre]

Those pics are amazzzzing! Just perfect. That serenity would be hard to leave.

[Deidre]

Just some ramblings for today...

 

It's interesting how when you start making positive changes in your life, like adding meditation, etc...you start looking at other areas of your life, and they're not reflective of who you are anymore. I used to chase money and be so into the corporate scene and now, the stress of all that doesn't fit with my off work time. I wish could rewind time and do something in health and fitness which is where my passion lies. I'm 33, is it too late?

 

So, I'm looking for another job and even if I have to take less money, I'll gladly do it if it brings less stress.

[Deidre]

I got back today and am trying to adjust to returning to the world, as it were. Wonderful retreat for myself with 5 days alone. The lake, reading, bike trail, meditation, etc. Still adjusting and integrating what was opened for me. Hard to explain, and in time I can share. Very hard to leave, but all part of my growing. Some very deep moments. For now, I'll just share this one photo I took of the lake at sunset I was on. I think it will convey. I'll have to share about the owl who met me in the woods, later.I'll return to this later as promised. (click on the image to see it full screen).lake mirror.jpg

Sounds like you had a really remarkable time. Happy for you!

[Antlerman]

Those pics are amazzzzing! Just perfect. That serenity would be hard to leave.

I'll share others later as I get them off the camera. What I'm finding is to integrate that serenity in being back to the routine life. What I learned there is still very much part of me and I'm building on it. It's hard to explain, but there always seems yet a new level you move into and then the process of integration. Much was learned by me. It's something within me that I am moving into, that I was ready to. It's a more fuller presence of being, a deeper awareness, and in it the world moves by that still awareness and opens yet more of the subtle vibrancy of life. It has to do with the end of all seeking. My mind is placid like that lake, despite having to now focus on my job in technology, in a very large corporate environment, which you spoke of. It makes my focus on my work much clearer and more effective.

 

I mentioned the Witness and that is something we should talk about. Have you experienced this yet where you become an observer of your thoughts, where you see them move past you like clouds as you calmly watch them, where you see that your thoughts are not you and you realize you are not that person who lives within them and looks out through them as you always assumed?

[Ellinas]

I don't want to muscle in on this discussion, but, given Antlerman's last post, I thought I'd copy this from a post that I left on another forum last weekend.  It had the heading "The point of mindfulness..."

 

"I had known for some time of the concept of becoming aware of your own state and environment as opposed to the normal everyday autopilot upon which we generally operate before I actually came across the term "mindfulness".

When I first heard of mindfulness as a form of meditation, it immediately struck me as just another version of the ideas espoused by various people over the years as to our general state of sleepwalking and the benefits of psychologically waking up, so to speak, now and again. And that remains my position.

However, as I sat in the Gospel Hall this morning, my rear end aching from that ridiculously hard wooden pew, I thought I'd try just seeking to become aware of my own thoughts.

And during this exercise, it struck me that to be aware of one's own thoughts reveals oneself to be a sort of passive observer rather than the thinker. Perhaps identifying the spirit or consciousness that, whilst it may be the ultimate source of what we are, say or do, is nevertheless just the gamer who plays on the console of the brain and observes the results. It was as if the mechanism of thought itself - the biological computer in my head - was seen to be the tool and conduit.

But this raises an interesting question. To what extent is our true consciousness just an observer; that which sets the wheels in motion, perhaps, but then just waits and sees the consequences of what it motivates? And is the point of mindfulness style meditation to allow that consciousness to come to the fore?

Or am I being a little too metaphysical?"

 

Don't know if that is what Antlerman has specifically in mind.

[Antlerman]

I don't want to muscle in on this discussion, but, given Antlerman's last post, I thought I'd copy this from a post that I left on another forum last weekend.  It had the heading "The point of mindfulness..."

 

"I had known for some time of the concept of becoming aware of your own state and environment as opposed to the normal everyday autopilot upon which we generally operate before I actually came across the term "mindfulness".

 

When I first heard of mindfulness as a form of meditation, it immediately struck me as just another version of the ideas espoused by various people over the years as to our general state of sleepwalking and the benefits of psychologically waking up, so to speak, now and again. And that remains my position.

 

However, as I sat in the Gospel Hall this morning, my rear end aching from that ridiculously hard wooden pew, I thought I'd try just seeking to become aware of my own thoughts.

 

And during this exercise, it struck me that to be aware of one's own thoughts reveals oneself to be a sort of passive observer rather than the thinker. Perhaps identifying the spirit or consciousness that, whilst it may the ultimate source of what we are, say or do, is nevertheless just the gamer who plays on the console of the brain and observes the results. It was as if the mechanism of thought itself - the biological computer in my head - was seen to be the tool and conduit.

 

But this raises an interesting question. To what extent is our true consciousness just an observer; that which sets the wheels in motion, perhaps, but then just waits and sees the consequences of what it motivates? And is the point of mindfulness style meditation to allow that consciousness to come to the fore?

 

Or am I being a little too metaphysical?"

 

Don't know if that is what Antlerman has specifically in mind.

Interesting thoughts I can try to address. As for mindfulness it is about being present in the moment. It's something that we can and should practice at anytime. To quote the author James Joyce, "Mr. Duffy lived a short distance from his body". That pretty much summarizes not being present. We are engaged in the future, in the past, in concepts and ideas, etc. My partner said of me several years ago before I started practicing meditation that when I walked anywhere, it was like my mind was a balloon tied to my shoulders dragging along behind me. That quote really captures that state of being in the mental space and not in the now.

 

Mindfulness meditation is about being in the body, being rooted and grounded, being present and observant. We should learn to live our lives mindfully in this way. We become aware and connected with our breath, clear and open, we observe the world and are part of it in the now. We open up physically and mentally, as opposed to being contracted and constricted. We are aware of ourselves. This is mindfulness.

 

A sitting meditation on the other hand is really flexing the muscles in a workout, training the mind in a focused manner. What is learned, what is discovered in this exercise becomes part of the practice of mindfulness, as you know what it looks like through the meditation practices and can open to it at anytime. You are aware of that deeper stuff of life as you've swum in that Ocean, and you see and experience that at anytime in ordinary living.

 

There are different methods of meditation practice, and where the Observer or Witness is experience is more in the Insight or Awareness form of meditation. You deliberately move back from engagement in normal discursive thought and when feelings arise or thoughts arise, you simply watch them from behind them, so to speak, or above, or wherever. This is not something that is conceptual or an idea, but is something you experience. And as it happens, the more you practice this, eventually you let go of even observation as the mind has become so still that there is just a profound opening into what is described as Emptiness. It is just resting in pure Awareness as the Seer, making no judgement on anything. It is not something that anyone can define, as it is no-thing. There is no object to see.

 

You find then that that Emptiness is in all things, and all things in Emptiness. You see, taste, feel, hear, breath that in everything that is. And you are part of that, and are That. So mindfulness then, is living and walking and breathing in nonduality this way. But it takes work on the mat, as well as on the feet, so to speak. These are not things that are reasoned, but realized through direct exposure.

 

BTW, I'll throw this in here as it helps explain some of these areas. I may have already shared it in this thread, but if not, it's well worth becoming familiar with this: https://www.integrallife.com/integral-post/stages-meditation

[Orbit]

 

Those pics are amazzzzing! Just perfect. That serenity would be hard to leave.

I'll share others later as I get them off the camera. What I'm finding is to integrate that serenity in being back to the routine life. What I learned there is still very much part of me and I'm building on it. It's hard to explain, but there always seems yet a new level you move into and then the process of integration. Much was learned by me. It's something within me that I am moving into, that I was ready to. It's a more fuller presence of being, a deeper awareness, and in it the world moves by that still awareness and opens yet more of the subtle vibrancy of life. It has to do with the end of all seeking. My mind is placid like that lake, despite having to now focus on my job in technology, in a very large corporate environment, which you spoke of. It makes my focus on my work much clearer and more effective.

 

I mentioned the Witness and that is something we should talk about. Have you experienced this yet where you become an observer of your thoughts, where you see them move past you like clouds as you calmly watch them, where you see that your thoughts are not you and you realize you are not that person who lives within them and looks out through them as you always assumed?

 

 

 I find myself frequently over-doing it; being the "observer" in normal, routine social interactions. I'll be talking to someone and will all the time be aware of my own reactions and thought processes. It feels strange, and I'm not sure if it's a useful thing or not. Thoughts?

[Deidre]

I'll share others later as I get them off the camera. What I'm finding is to integrate that serenity in being back to the routine life. What I learned there is still very much part of me and I'm building on it. It's hard to explain, but there always seems yet a new level you move into and then the process of integration. Much was learned by me. It's something within me that I am moving into, that I was ready to. It's a more fuller presence of being, a deeper awareness, and in it the world moves by that still awareness and opens yet more of the subtle vibrancy of life. It has to do with the end of all seeking. My mind is placid like that lake, despite having to now focus on my job in technology, in a very large corporate environment, which you spoke of. It makes my focus on my work much clearer and more effective.

Your trip sounds so interesting. I so very much need a retreat such as that. I'm thinking of taking a mini one this weekend, even if just somewhere I've never been, for an entire day. Unplug. Idk.

 

I'm hoping your time back at work didn't interfere with your peace.

 

I mentioned the Witness and that is something we should talk about. Have you experienced this yet where you become an observer of your thoughts, where you see them move past you like clouds as you calmly watch them, where you see that your thoughts are not you and you realize you are not that person who lives within them and looks out through them as you always assumed?

Somewhat, yes. My experiences are not gradual...they come in jolting spurts. lol I meditate...nothing. I meditate another night...nothing. (by nothing, I mean, no epiphanies, so to speak) Then...after a few nights...I'll experience a jolt, or remember an experience that takes me back to my childhood. The place that needs to heal the most. So, for me...I can confidently say...I'm finally a witness to my childhood, instead of trying to hang onto it, and keep it in my present. You know, allowing it to define me as I have for so long. Finally, I'm able to witness and say...''that was then, and that is not now.''

 

It's taken quite a long time Antlerman for me to say that. lol

 

SOMETHING OF IMPORTANCE TO NOTE...anyone else sleep INCREDIBLY WELL, on the days/nights you meditate? I've been meditating every day for a bit now, and my sleep has improved so much.

[Deidre]

I don't want to muscle in on this discussion,

Please...feel free to join in the discussion here, anytime.

[Deidre]

Antlerman, I have a question for you. Now that you follow a different philosophy with Buddhism practices, than you did as a Christian....can you see a difference in how you respond to difficult people in your life? (whether they are coworkers, etc)

[Antlerman]

I find myself frequently over-doing it; being the "observer" in normal, routine social interactions. I'll be talking to someone and will all the time be aware of my own reactions and thought processes. It feels strange, and I'm not sure if it's a useful thing or not. Thoughts?

I think it depends. There are times for me where if it is particularly emotionally challenging being more observant of the emotional bundle (by that I mean all the thoughts that typically go with emotional reactions), is helpful. I was going to reference this in answering Deidre about relationships, that I find that dealing with particularly difficult people this is instrumental in being effective, rather than just going spiraling down our emotional feedback loops.

 

One way to look at the Witness, is that it's a dual-awareness. You are not disengaged from yourself, you're not in dissociation. Rather, you are calmly guiding things like the helmsman on a ship, whilst the wind billows the sails. It's your sails filled with wind, but they are controlled. How much one relies on the helmsman, really depends on the situation. There is nothing wrong in being fully in the ego, doing what the ego was developed in us to do. It's no different than being fully engaged in the body to perform a task. What is important is to be fully present, and not swept up in these things which sweep us away. The Witness is a 'higher' set of eyes to look at things. How much you are there really depends on the need at hand. Balance, man, balance.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, I have a question for you. Now that you follow a different philosophy with Buddhism practices, than you did as a Christian....can you see a difference in how you respond to difficult people in your life? (whether they are coworkers, etc)

Well, yes. Absolutely. I answered a little bit of this in response to Orbit just now, but I may add something more here. As I said, being less swept up in the stream of normal "coping" mechanisms allows a whole other approach to things. At first I was amazed at how different it was in dealing with one family member who is, to say the least possible, a completely soul-sucker of all she touches in her unfortunate and horrid dysfunction, where though I was angry at her, though I yelled at her, through it all I was calm. I don't know how to explain that. It was a controlled rage, which rather than being destructive to her, myself, and others, had a purpose and a goal. It was driven by compassion. The outcome from that confrontation, which I still am amazed how it was handled based on how deep the history with her ran in my life, quite literally performed a miracle. The entire household situation changed, and has become peaceful for all parties involved. I honestly owe all of it to the benefits I had opened to in myself through a meditation practice. I am in no way exaggerating this.

 

So in like vein, everything else is improved. But, don't forget, we have habits and shadows and much work in us. I think you'll always find some new opportunity to look at and examine what surfaces unexpectedly. As I said before, it's an ascending spiral looping over the same trigger points. Don't be dismayed but see them as a welcome friend to teach you. You're growing. The huge difference now, is you are aware. Whereas before, you were just swept up in the stream trying to find coping mechanisms, and stuck in a feedback looping, just surviving, just keeping the nose above water. That's radically different now.

 

As far as Christianity goes, I'll just say this, and hopefully not freak you out or anything, but I've actually come to see because of my knowledge of it on the level I have, that as I open into a Buddhist and Hindu approach, that very much to my surprise that this is actually there in Christianity. Not in the way the majority of people understand and practice it as some externalized god up there who will smite you for being a bad little boy or girl, but at the deeper Wisdom school level. There are many who see similarities at its core between Buddhism and Hinduism and Christianity. There is one priest who wrote a book, I've not read but enjoy the title of it, "If it weren't for Buddha, I couldn't be a Christian". I love that title! Don't worry about it though, I don't think anything in how it is presented to the masses has much value on this level except in very, very rare exceptions against the whole. In that sense, there's definitely no going back to that view of the literalized Judge in the Sky.

 

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

[Antlerman]

Anyway, another wonderful find on the trail on my retreat. Not sure what the flower is, but it called to me as I caught it out of the corner of my eye. Such Beauty in the world as we observe.

 

[Orbit]

 

As far as Christianity goes, I'll just say this, and hopefully not freak you out or anything, but I've actually come to see because of my knowledge of it on the level I have, that as I open into a Buddhist and Hindu approach, that very much to my surprise that this is actually there in Christianity. Not in the way the majority of people understand and practice it as some externalized god up there who will smite you for being a bad little boy or girl, but at the deeper Wisdom school level. There are many who see similarities at its core between Buddhism and Hinduism and Christianity. There is one priest who wrote a book, I've not read but enjoy the title of it, "If it weren't for Buddha, I couldn't be a Christian". I love that title! Don't worry about it though, I don't think anything in how it is presented to the masses has much value on this level except in very, very rare exceptions against the whole. In that sense, there's definitely no going back to that view of the literalized Judge in the Sky.

 

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

 

Hi- I wanted to respond to this because I have a similar feeling. "The kingdom of heaven is within you" reminds me of the Hindu "You're it". You are all you need. The more mystical experience connects them all I think. The idea of Brahman, the life force suffusing everything, reminds me of the mystic experience in Christianity. A feeling of pure connection. "As you sow, so shall you reap" reminds me of the law of karma. I always wondered if I was imagining things, seeing these connections.

[Antlerman]

Hi- I wanted to respond to this because I have a similar feeling. "The kingdom of heaven is within you" reminds me of the Hindu "You're it". You are all you need.

It also is saying the same thing as we all have Buddha nature. In other words "heaven" is not some place, but is within. It's right there in the Bible, though many modern translations like to say it says "among" you, rather than within you. But this is a theological injection as they don't 'grok' its meaning theologically. It can't be translated that way as it is never used as "among" anywhere. It is always "inside", such as "make clean the inside of the cup first", exact same word, and meaning. What Buddha nature means, what this "heaven inside you" means, is that Enlightenment, or being Buddha, or being one with God is something we all already are in our very nature. It's simply a matter of realizing it, not "attaining" it. It's like trying to attain your lungs. You'll never attain what is already yours. You just have to make use of them.

 

The more mystical experience connects them all I think.

This is exactly true. This is what the Perennial Philosophy says, which I largely subscribe to. Notice my signature line below? It says this as well,"Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at the peak we all gaze at the single bright moon." At the heart of most religions lays mystical awareness. But then from there, it becomes 'dumbed down' for the masses and hard to see that core. And typically, those within them that do find themselves often at odds with the "orthodox" believers, often at their own peril. When you hear someone like the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart from the 14th Century saying, "I pray God make me free of God that I may know God in [His] unconditional being," this make Church authorities a bit nervous. That and a long list of other things he and other mystics say.

 

The idea of Brahman, the life force suffusing everything, reminds me of the mystic experience in Christianity. A feeling of pure connection. "As you sow, so shall you reap" reminds me of the law of karma. I always wondered if I was imagining things, seeing these connections.

No, you're not imagining them. I think it's a matter of having enough distance and time and some gained insights and wisdom from an actual interior practice that allow us to see them. It actually kind of freaked me out at first when they started coming to mind as I opened myself this way. It's like, they were there the whole time, but they just don't see it. They use all the right words, but the context is all wrong. I'm never less than amazed how it's like the words are a watershed point, where when a drop of water hits them they either end up going East or West, depending who uses them. I look at what we know of Christianity, and it's like 'how can they end up over there with this?'. But I understand it. To them the "kingdom of heaven" is in the sky outside of themselves. They never look within.

 

I have tons of thoughts I could share on this, but I'm a bit hesitant as I worry it might feel too close to home for those who are still rightly at the place of creating enough distance from anything to do with that of the past in order to create the safe space to grow their future. It's not important than one understand any of this, but it's just something I find amazing for myself now at this point for me. I don't have that animosity anymore towards it. I just understand that it's something very few actually understand. It's not meant to be a religion, that you 'believe in'. As I said, you hear the right words, but the meaning is rarely understood and what you end up with is the choking air we all made our escape from.

[Deidre]

Anyway, another wonderful find on the trail on my retreat. Not sure what the flower is, but it called to me as I caught it out of the corner of my eye. Such Beauty in the world as we observe.flowers on trail.jpg

Beautiful! You brought a little of your trip back to us.

Thank you

[Antlerman]

SOMETHING OF IMPORTANCE TO NOTE...anyone else sleep INCREDIBLY WELL, on the days/nights you meditate? I've been meditating every day for a bit now, and my sleep has improved so much.

I missed this question earlier. One thing you may wish to try, and something I am determining I need to do all the time based on experience, is right before bed, as you are sitting on the edge of it, take time, a few minutes to just center and ground yourself. Breathe in deeply, let it out slowly. Do this for a few minutes. Smile, release, and be grateful.

 

Tell me how you feel the next morning.

[Orbit]

Can I just say I love this thread?

[Antlerman]

Interjecting more of my encounters with Beauty on my brief retreat this last week. Another moment of sharing with Nature which presented Herself to me while I spent time contemplating Life on the trail: (You have to click on the images to see the full size).

 

 

 

 

[Deidre]

Those are so fantastic! ^^

 

Not sure how you pulled yourself away to come back...