Xtians: Reasons For Belief?

[Orbit]

IH I'm genuinely puzzled as to how you could read The God Delusion, and still treat the issue like "complexity needs a creator". At least we have evidence, from science, that explains the complexity in the world. On the other hand, there is zero evidence for a creator. It shouldn't be about faith, it should be about evidence. Evidence points to natural causes for the universe and the life in it. I do appreciate your answering the question btw.

[mymistake]

 

mymistake: "We have learned from science exactly how fertilized eggs develop into lifeforms and no God was ever observed.  And furthermore science has learned that if you tossed elements into the sea for eternity something else would happen.  You choose ignorance but that isn't a reason."

 

-Yes, observational science shows much of how life works. I'm talking about what set up to wotk.

 

-I disagree that science has proved that putting elements together creates life. The last time I did a search for recent news, I did not find it.

 

-I am trying to answer as an educated person.

 

You are failing miserably.  No matter how much truth science uncovers you imagine that just beyond that is your God.  You have no evidence of this at all.  It is purely wishful thinking.

 

If science had uncovered a hundred thousand years of the past then you would imagine God acted 100,001 years ago.

 

If science had uncovered a trillion years of the past then you would imagine that God acted 1,000,000,000,001 years ago.

 

In fact science has uncovered 13.789 billion years of our past so you imagine that God acted 13,789,000,001 years ago.

 

You are not acting like you have been educated.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

mymistake: "We have learned from science exactly how fertilized eggs develop into lifeforms and no God was ever observed.  And furthermore science has learned that if you tossed elements into the sea for eternity something else would happen.  You choose ignorance but that isn't a reason."

 

-Yes, observational science shows much of how life works. I'm talking about what set up to wotk.

 

-I disagree that science has proved that putting elements together creates life. The last time I did a search for recent news, I did not find it.

 

-I am trying to answer as an educated person.

 

You are failing miserably.  No matter how much truth science uncovers you imagine that just beyond that is your God.  You have no evidence of this at all.  It is purely wishful thinking.

 

If science had uncovered a hundred thousand years of the past then you would imagine God acted 100,001 years ago.

 

If science had uncovered a trillion years of the past then you would imagine that God acted 1,000,000,000,001 years ago.

 

In fact science has uncovered 13.789 billion years of our past so you imagine that God acted 13,789,000,001 years ago.

 

You are not acting like you have been educated.

 

The "God of the Gaps" is another common backpedaling technique theists use.  

[ironhorse]

IH I'm genuinely puzzled as to how you could read The God Delusion, and still treat the issue like "complexity needs a creator". At least we have evidence, from science, that explains the complexity in the world. On the other hand, there is zero evidence for a creator. It shouldn't be about faith, it should be about evidence. Evidence points to natural causes for the universe and the life in it. I do appreciate your answering the question btw.

 

I understand that, like so many things in life, we don't always reach the same conclusions. I accept that.

 

And yes science does see and explains the complexities of the world. There is zero concrete evidence for a creator.

 

That is not faith. I agree.

 

I am just saying that when you get down to trying to explain how something came from nothing, we can't. Krauss makes

a brilliant attempt in his book, but he admits it cannot not be proved concretely.

 

What any of us thinks or believes is speculation. If we find an idea that clicks with us, we go with it, whatever the idea is in faith.

[Orbit]

Given that no amount of evidence sways you, I have to ask--why are you hanging out here with us heathens? It can't be to hear the evidence and have Bible contradictions pointed out...

[mymistake]

 

 

I am just saying that when you get down to trying to explain how something came from nothing, we can't. 

 

What nothing?  When was there ever a nothing?

 

You assume something came from nothing.  That is another leap you make.  You leap and leap and leap to justify your leaps of faith.

 

 

 

What any of us thinks or believes is speculation. If we find an idea that clicks with us, we go with it, whatever the idea is in faith.

 

Nope.  Many of us base our thinking on evidence.  We have facts that have been verified.  This is much better than speculation based on nothing at all.  What you do and what we do are very different things.

[sdelsolray]

 

I am just saying that when you get down to trying to explain how something came from nothing, we can't. Krauss makes

a brilliant attempt in his book, but he admits it cannot not be proved concretely.

…

 

 

Does your god hide behind the nothing/something dichotomy?  You apparently assume there was nothing at some point, or at some time.  And Krauss does the same for the purposes of his non-peer reviewed scientific hypothesizing.  Of course, it is just as easy to assume there was always something, and never nothing.  You do that every time you claim your god has always existed.

 

As to Krauss, of course he states it cannot be proved concretely.  He's a scientist.  Why haven't you figured out yet that science never provides absolute certainty?

 

 

What any of us thinks or believes is speculation. If we find an idea that clicks with us, we go with it, whatever the idea is in faith.

 

 

Speak for yourself, not for others.  Here, read the following in front of a mirror:

 

"What I think or believe is speculation.  If I find an idea that clicks with me, I go with it, whatever the idea is in faith."

 

A bit more accurate, don't you think?

[ironhorse]

Given that no amount of evidence sways you, I have to ask--why are you hanging out here with us heathens? It can't be to hear the evidence and have Bible contradictions pointed out...

 

Thanks for noticing that Orbit.  Your'e right. I'm not going to persuaded by other religions or belief systems.

 

I get more upset visiting some Christian forums where they keep babbling about junk that has nothing to do with the message of Jesus and the Christian faith. I watched a few hours of Jimmy Swaggart the other night going on and on about nothing. The man said nothing. He had all the cliches down, he tinkled the piano keys a few times, he had the crowds holding their hands up pleading for God to come down and do something.

 

I'm thinking you poor people, God's already done something! Why are you calling on him to come down? He's everywhere.

 

Why not try to actually go out of your little praise chapel and try doing what Jesus said to do. It ain't complicated.

 

I'm here in this forum because I really do like reading other people's views. I really do. It actually me learn things and understand why some have left the Christian faith.

 

When I found this site. I spent some time reading some threads and looking around. I could not believe that, as a Christian, I would be allowed to post in this forum. I'm thankful for that.

 

I'm here to stay. 

 

I'm not going to constantly intrude or start dozens of threads. I'm just here to respond when I can.

[Neverlandrut]

Orbit: I have read the "God Delusion"

 

 

mymistake: "We have learned from science exactly how fertilized eggs develop into lifeforms and no God was ever observed. And furthermore science has learned that if you tossed elements into the sea for eternity something else would happen. You choose ignorance but that isn't a reason."

 

-Yes, observational science shows much of how life works. I'm talking about what set up to wotk.

 

-I disagree that science has proved that putting elements together creates life. The last time I did a search for recent news, I did not find it.

 

 

Neverlandrut: We also have never witnessed a universe being designed and created, and have never interviewed a universe designer to learn how it's done."

 

Exactly no one saw it happened. That is why there is a point where observational science does not work. Why cant we agree on that fact. Whatever you want to believe is fine. I respect other points of view.

 

mymistake: "Instead why not answer like an educated person? We live in the 21st century. Biology is not a mystery."

 

-I am trying to answer as an educated person.

 

- I know year it is. Can you give me that much credibility?

 

-I never said biology is a mystery.

 

 

Neverlandrut: "Wrong!!! A leap of faith is NEVER required. Scientific theories are known with varying degrees of certainty, but faith is never used to fill the gaps, never."

 

-When you start at square one and ask what is the origin of matter, It takes faith to answer it one way or another.

Have you read "A Universe from Nothing: Why There is Something Rather than Nothing" by physicist Lawrence Krauss?

 

 

sdelsoray: "Science does not do faith, and it doesn't believe. It asks questions, employs curiosity, forms hypotenuses, etc. It is perfectly comfortable saying, "I do not know"."

 

-I never said science does faith. It indeed inquires and asks questions. That's great. I'm fine with saying

I don't know. I'm saying that we you start ti theorize about the origin of matter....we don't know.

 

-I have decided that there is a God behind it all. That is my faith. Can I prove it? No.

No it absolutely does not take faith to answer that question! That is absolutely wrong, WRONG, WRONG! We either have a good idea or we do not! We don't take the hypothesis we like the best and run with it as truth based on little to no evidence. Science just simply does not do that. The universe from nothing idea is not well established. It is hypothetical at this point. Some scientists are fans of the idea, but they do not "have faith" it is true. They think (are of the amendable opinion that it may turn out to be true), but that is NOT faith. I get really burned up when dishonest people like you try to equate science with religious faith, saying that just like it takes faith to believe in god it takes faith to believe science. Nothing could be farther from the truth! That is equivocation fallacy, and a misrepresentation of science. It is absolutely incorrect! Apologists like yourself know this yet use that tactic anyway. I fight against what you are doing with the word faith because it is corrosive to the advancement of science. It leads people to believe that as long as an idea has a degree of plausibility, it is just as acceptable an explanation as anything else in science. That is wrong Iron Horse, and I think you damn well know it! I will call you out on this non-sense equivocation you make between science and faith every time I see it, because it is completely false equivocation. Nothing but an apologetic attempt to make science as uncertain as faith. It is no where near as uncertain as faith. In many, if not most cases, they are on polar opposite ends of the spectrum of certainty.

 

 

Faith is the wrong word IH. Not a matter of opinion. It is objectively the wrong word. Science never accepts an idea as true based on faith, never never never. That is the opposite of science. It does not take faith to answer the question of where the universe came from. We may have a pretty good idea that we cannot be completely sure of, but that is not the same thing as faith. Faith says, "I know this is absolutely true despite the fact there is no evidence." Faith and opinion are two different things IH. A scientist may favor a hypothetical explanation. He maybe hopeful it will turn out to be true. But it is not accepted as fact in the scientific community until it is supported by evidence that is tested, retested, and tested again to ensure that the same results and conclusions are reached. Then the result are put through peer review to ensure that the conclusion follows from the results. And then, maybe, maybe, maybe it will be accepted as a viable scientific explanation. Science uses evidence to arrive at the highest degree of certainty possible. Whatever it cannot be certain of. It simply says, "we don't know." It does not use faith to assert a more complete explanation.

 

Also your point that we have never witnessed a universe coming into being does not support your god conclusion in the least. It proves that your conclusion is completely unfounded! I'm glad you recognize this. What you have said shows very clearly that you understand that your faith is nothing more than wishful thinking. That's perfectly fine if you choose to hold on to your wishful thinking. But you delude yourself if you think you have good reason to accept it as positively true. You describe your faith like it is just your opinion (which it is, and you seem to recognize this), yet you assert your beliefs as if they are fact. This is contradiction.

[sdelsolray]

 

Given that no amount of evidence sways you, I have to ask--why are you hanging out here with us heathens? It can't be to hear the evidence and have Bible contradictions pointed out...

 

Thanks for noticing that Orbit.  Your'e right. I'm not going to persuaded by other religions or belief systems.

 

I get more upset visiting some Christian forums where they keep babbling about junk that has nothing to do with the message of Jesus and the Christian faith. I watched a few hours of Jimmy Swaggart the other night going on and on about nothing. The man said nothing. He had all the cliches down, he tinkled the piano keys a few times, he had the crowds holding their hands up pleading for God to come down and do something.

 

I'm thinking you poor people, God's already done something! Why are you calling on him to come down? He's everywhere.

 

Why not try to actually go out of your little praise chapel and try doing what Jesus said to do. It ain't complicated.

 

I'm here in this forum because I really do like reading other people's views. I really do. It actually me learn things and understand why some have left the Christian faith.

 

When I found this site. I spent some time reading some threads and looking around. I could not believe that, as a Christian, I would be allowed to post in this forum. I'm thankful for that.

 

I'm here to stay. 

 

I'm not going to constantly intrude or start dozens of threads. I'm just here to respond when I can.

 

It is good that you are here to study, to understand and to learn.

 

If that is your stated purpose, then I have two questions:

 

1)  Why would you state, "I'm not going to persuaded by other religions or belief systems."?  (You made this statement in the same post immediately above).

 

​2)  How does this stated purpose mesh with another stated purpose you previously made as (paraphrased), 'I'm here to spread the message of Christianity and of faith'.?

[ironhorse]

 

 

Given that no amount of evidence sways you, I have to ask--why are you hanging out here with us heathens? It can't be to hear the evidence and have Bible contradictions pointed out...

 

Thanks for noticing that Orbit.  Your'e right. I'm not going to persuaded by other religions or belief systems.

 

I get more upset visiting some Christian forums where they keep babbling about junk that has nothing to do with the message of Jesus and the Christian faith. I watched a few hours of Jimmy Swaggart the other night going on and on about nothing. The man said nothing. He had all the cliches down, he tinkled the piano keys a few times, he had the crowds holding their hands up pleading for God to come down and do something.

 

I'm thinking you poor people, God's already done something! Why are you calling on him to come down? He's everywhere.

 

Why not try to actually go out of your little praise chapel and try doing what Jesus said to do. It ain't complicated.

 

I'm here in this forum because I really do like reading other people's views. I really do. It actually me learn things and understand why some have left the Christian faith.

 

When I found this site. I spent some time reading some threads and looking around. I could not believe that, as a Christian, I would be allowed to post in this forum. I'm thankful for that.

 

I'm here to stay. 

 

I'm not going to constantly intrude or start dozens of threads. I'm just here to respond when I can.

 

It is good that you are here to study, to understand and to learn.

 

If that is your stated purpose, then I have two questions:

 

1)  Why would you state, "I'm not going to persuaded by other religions or belief systems."?  (You made this statement in the same post immediately above).

 

​2)  How does this stated purpose mesh with another stated purpose you previously made as (paraphrased), 'I'm here to spread the message of Christianity and of faith'.?

 

 

Thanks, I am here to learn.

 

1)I have tried to be consistent from when first joined this community in January. I have already spent several years of my life giving

other religions and belief systems a chance to convince me. I was not convinced.

 

2) I'm here to try to tear away all the garbage that has been dumped on Christianity. "Looking for Jesus under the trash..." as the U2 song goes. Unmasking the Gospel the best I can. 

[Roz]

IH, the man who calls out other christians for 'not seeing what his god has shown everybody!'

 

The same man who's often said 'I don't know x, y, z, q, r concerning major biblical errors / contradictions but you'll never convince me that I don't have the true religion!'

 

The same man gets upset at Jimmy Swaggart for preaching nonsense while constantly spouting canned catchphrases and song lyrics.

 

[Roz]

Thanks, I am here to learn.

 

1)I have tried to be consistent from when first joined this community in January. I have already spent several years of my life giving

other religions and belief systems a chance to convince me. I was not convinced.

 

2) I'm here to try to tear away all the garbage that has been dumped on Christianity. "Looking for Jesus under the trash..." as the U2 song goes. Unmasking the Gospel the best I can. 

 

 

He has the 'true christianity' not like the mormons, the SDAs, the pentecostals, the JWs, the catholics, etc.

 

EDIT:

As to point 1:  Name 5 different belief systems that you've studied and tell us why you weren't convinced they held 'the truth.'

[Guest end3]

 

 

Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

 

 

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

 

Your "concrete evidence" is a common logical fallacy, an argument from incredulity aka argument from ignorance, and is often used by theists who rely solely on religious faith for their beliefs.

 

Put another way, it is not "concrete", nor is it "evidence".  It is merely an emotionally satisfying excuse, at least for you.

 

In addition, you support your excuse with another common logical fallacy, a strawman argument, with your "just randomly occurred" nonsense.

 

Your post does provide concrete evidence that your thinking is irrational.

 

S, who in the fuck made you the post police. He gave you all an answer. Sorry it doesn't satisfy your fucking stance. Pony up and tell us all how life started.....we want evidence S. If you don't have it, stfu and fuck off. Jesus dude.

[Guest end3]

 

In answering I was trying to imagine I had been born and lived on an island or somewhere

that did not have any knowledge any religion. I was imagine how I would make sense out of these things I see.

 

Instead why not answer like an educated person?  We live in the 21st century.  Biology is not a mystery.

 

Why does he have to answer to satisfy you MM?

[Roz]

End3, the angry Ray Comfort to IH's Kirk Cameron, only with more rabid mental breakdowns.  This ought to be fun.

[Orbit]

IH, your only source of information about God is the Bible, and you know from being on this site that the Bible contradicts itself and contains a vengeful, petty, genocidal God that reflects the Bronze Age psyche of man. Given that your only source of information about God is fallible, how can you believe?

[sdelsolray]

 

S, who in the fuck made you the post police. He gave you all an answer. Sorry it doesn't satisfy your fucking stance. Pony up and tell us all how life started.....we want evidence S. If you don't have it, stfu and fuck off. Jesus dude.

 

The tough guy speaks.  Isn't it about time you deal with your incessant anger?  It's quite pathetic.

 

As demonstrated, Ironhorse's "answer" was based on fallacious reasoning.  Do you agree or disagree with that analysis?  Please provide additional content instead of infantile vitriol.

 

Whether I can provide evidence supporting abiogenesis of carbon based life on Earth is quite irrelevant.  

[Guest end3]

One of you idiots tell us scientifically how belief works. Morons.

[Orbit]

 

 

S, who in the fuck made you the post police. He gave you all an answer. Sorry it doesn't satisfy your fucking stance. Pony up and tell us all how life started.....we want evidence S. If you don't have it, stfu and fuck off. Jesus dude.

 

The tough guy speaks.  Isn't it about time you deal with your incessant anger and vitriol?  It's quite pathetic.

 

Anger and vitriol? He's just imitating his god.

[Roz]

Ray Comfort's feisty tonight.  He knows full well the person who makes any claim has the burden to prove it, yet he -like IH Cameron- hasn't produced anything.

 

End3, the embodiment of:

 

[Guest end3]

 

S, who in the fuck made you the post police. He gave you all an answer. Sorry it doesn't satisfy your fucking stance. Pony up and tell us all how life started.....we want evidence S. If you don't have it, stfu and fuck off. Jesus dude.

The tough guy speaks.  Isn't it about time you deal with your incessant anger and vitriol?  It's quite pathetic.

 

Based on you previous posts jackass, you seem to have a bit of anger yourself. Let's try this. Why don't you take the responsibility to satisfy your own beliefs yourself??? What a novel idea?? No, we have to take someone else's beliefs and change them to help ours. Obviously it's not ok for IH to believe as he does.

 

My anger is with the idiots of this world. Funny I should direct vitriol at you s.

[Guest end3]

All you resident fucks, bring the science. Until then, you are all like Roz, a blowhard that says absolutely nada.

[Roz]

Hahahaha, Comfort's really mad.  Maybe due to all the bananas that he's got stuck somewhere.

 

The stupidity of the arguments from our Ray and Kirk really do top the real life counterparts.

[Guest end3]

You know S, sometimes posts here are just so fucking bad, i.e. YOURS, that a response like mine is warranted. Go home, study, read, fuck, do SOMETHING before returning with another moronic diatribe.