What's Your Opinion On Feminism?

[Castiel233]

[Castiel233]

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To lighten the mood

[sparklingphoenix]

Women do not just have a victim mentality. I don't that's for sure. I don't know how anyone can justify that after so many women work hard and don't ask for any handouts. However I do know what it was like to be oppressed by my religion, misogynistic family members, and being judged by society by not being taken seriously. All women and minorities need feminism. If a woman thinks she doesn't need feminism, she is ignoring the history of the world and the hard work of men and women who fought for them to have the rights they do have in modern day. Thinking that feminism is irrelevant to your life is ignorant (especially for women). I'm not trying to be rude, but the fact is when you are a person in power- male or female- you don't tend to want to give up that power. Today's society is still not equal in pay and representation for women. People in power have to be willing to give up some of their power in order to bring others up to an equal playing field. Women shouldn't be blamed for their lack of influence or power in today's culture. That is unfair. Men and women both need to take responsibility for this and work together to improve the lives of everyone. Men can't just abdicate their responsibility or role in the lot that has been given to women. 

[Bhim]

I argued against the behavior of posters on here towards women they don't agree with. You are pounding on the false rape issue for some reason and essentially insinuating that all women are in favor of false-rape-claims against men, which is bizarre. What rich donors throw money at rabid man haters in our country? I see more backwards anti-woman sentiment in the very powerful fringes of our government, not vis versa... mostly made up of christian fundamentalists.

I have a very limited experience with rape, sorry, therefor I am not an expert. I don't sit around all day obsessing over rape, what constitutes rape and what doesn't.  My only experience with courts involve family court. I don't follow high profile rape cases you mention-- the media loves a circus. 

I have a distinct feeling that NO REPLY I give you would satisfy you, since you already stated "I cannot vote for any female political candidate"-- why would you give a d@mn about my opinion? You are obviously looking for an opportunity just to slam me.

I've already been shot down. No, I am not in favor of false rape claims, just as I am against false child-abuse claims, false harassment claims. A false rape or sexual harassment claim could happen to a woman, too, in this litigous age, so it's not just a man versus woman issue.

 

I apologize for bringing up an old post.  I suppose the popularity of this thread causes a day old post to be "old."  However I do want to address these points.

 

First, I don't emphasize the false rape accusations for "some reason."  I've been quite specific in my rationale.  Namely, I believe the rights of the accused outweigh the rights of victims, and by a good deal.  Better to let ten rapists go free than to convict one man falsely.  Do you agree with this?  Because if not, you are undermining a bedrock principle of Western jurisprudence, and you are opening yourself up to live in a world where your freedom could be taken from you at any time.

 

Second, I have not insinuated that all women are in favor of false rape accusations.  You even quoted me as saying, "Most feminists and others on this thread are very reasonable, and say a lot of things that I agree with. But because you exist, and are not unilaterally condemned by them for dismissing the rights of the accused, I can't support any of them." (emphasis mine).  The premise of my argument is that you are one of the few unreasonable people here.  This isn't about feminists in general, it is about you in particular.  Yet I do not hold feminism guiltless, I believe feminism has allowed a mob culture, i.e. an environment where it is not considered unthinkable to falsely accuse men of rape.  I'm quite sure most feminists are not in favor of false accusations.  Even Zerlina Maxwell is not in favor of this.  But they do not consider false accusations to be among the most horrific of all crimes that one human can commit against another.  This is an environment that allows someone like yourself to exist and not be condemned.

 

Let me put this succinctly.  If you made a post to the effect of "I hate blacks and Jews because they are black and Jewish, and I believe that for this they should be shot," then you would likely never be taken seriously by anyone on this forum.  That's because racism and anti-semitism are universally condemned.  The very culture is opposed to these things.  False rape accusations must be likewise regarded within feminist culture, or else feminism is a threat to the American way of life.  I see your lack of concern for false rape accusations to be the moral equivalent of these things.

 

Third, you have once again cited your lack of experience with rape as a justification for passing the buck on this issue.  This is like a climate change denier saying "I'm not a scientist."  And I have responded as the President did.  I'm not a lawyer, but I know plenty of lawyers.  And they all say that the presumption of innocence is foundational to American justice.  If you're going to claim ignorance on legal matters, then you should change your opinion and differ to lawyers.  Or you should educate yourself and form your own opinion.  But ignorance does not absolve you of guilt if you support a system which puts innocent people behind bars.  You claim that you don't sit around all day obsessing over rape.  But here's a positive suggestion: why don't you spend some time obsessing over justice for those who need it most, i.e. innocent people behind bars?

 

You claim that no reply would satisfy me.  But I'm not looking for personal satisfaction.  I am looking to convince you that your blithe suggestion "get a good lawyer" is tantamount to telling a falsely accused man "you're screwed," and that you should change your opinion on this for the sake of justice.  If I didn't care about your opinion, I wouldn't be writing directly to you, instead I would write my own opinion on you to the larger audience of this forum.  I've told you that my refusal to vote for a female candidate is not based on any belief that the female candidates we currently have are unqualified, but that feminism is replete with mob culture.  Do your part to eradicate this culture, and I will do my part to support gender equality, knowing that doing so won't put me at risk of going to prison one day for a crime I didn't commit.

 

Regarding false rape claims made against women (presumably by men), do you have any examples of this?  I did a google search for "women falsely accused of rape" and couldn't find a single relevant result in the first page.  Not to say that they don't exist, but if they do it would seem that examples are scarce.  Do you really believe that women are equally at risk as men of false rape accusations?  I hope you realize that this is an issue which disproportionately affects men.  If you don't care about this, then surely equality is not what you're after, don't you think?

 

Earlier you brought up the tangential issue of female teachers having sex with minor students.  I'm sorry I didn't reply to this point.  I will say now that it is not analogous to false rape accusations.  Every one of these cases is an incident of statutory rape, which means it's classified as a rape by default (children can't legally consent to sex). Do I think a sixteen year old kid having sex with his thirty year old female teacher causes him any harm?  Of course not, and if you think that statutory rape laws should be repealed then you'll get no argument from me.  But in these cases, there is no question as to whether the deed actually occurred.  An adult had sex with a minor, and technically that's rape.  You can argue that the law itself should be changed, but you can't argue that jurisprudence has been perverted or that anyone's due process has been violated.  Find me a case where a kid falsely accused his teacher of having sex with him, and I'll condemn it as vehemently as I do your beliefs concerning due process.

[mymistake]

Women do not just have a victim mentality. I don't that's for sure. I don't know how anyone can justify that after so many women work hard and don't ask for any handouts. However I do know what it was like to be oppressed by my religion, misogynistic family members, and being judged by society by not being taken seriously. All women and minorities need feminism. If a woman thinks she doesn't need feminism, she is ignoring the history of the world and the hard work of men and women who fought for them to have the rights they do have in modern day. Thinking that feminism is irrelevant to your life is ignorant (especially for women). I'm not trying to be rude, but the fact is when you are a person in power- male or female- you don't tend to want to give up that power. Today's society is still not equal in pay and representation for women. People in power have to be willing to give up some of their power in order to bring others up to an equal playing field. Women shouldn't be blamed for their lack of influence or power in today's culture. That is unfair. Men and women both need to take responsibility for this and work together to improve the lives of everyone. Men can't just abdicate their responsibility or role in the lot that has been given to women. 

 

 

Do you think feminism is the only pathway to gender equality?  Or perhaps do you think feminism is an essential tool in that battle?

[sparklingphoenix]

 

Women do not just have a victim mentality. I don't that's for sure. I don't know how anyone can justify that after so many women work hard and don't ask for any handouts. However I do know what it was like to be oppressed by my religion, misogynistic family members, and being judged by society by not being taken seriously. All women and minorities need feminism. If a woman thinks she doesn't need feminism, she is ignoring the history of the world and the hard work of men and women who fought for them to have the rights they do have in modern day. Thinking that feminism is irrelevant to your life is ignorant (especially for women). I'm not trying to be rude, but the fact is when you are a person in power- male or female- you don't tend to want to give up that power. Today's society is still not equal in pay and representation for women. People in power have to be willing to give up some of their power in order to bring others up to an equal playing field. Women shouldn't be blamed for their lack of influence or power in today's culture. That is unfair. Men and women both need to take responsibility for this and work together to improve the lives of everyone. Men can't just abdicate their responsibility or role in the lot that has been given to women. 

 

 

Do you think feminism is the only pathway to gender equality?  Or perhaps do you think feminism is an essential tool in that battle?

I think the feminist movement has moved a lot of mountains that were in the way of equal rights for women so far. If there are other options or pathways I'd love to learn about them and educate myself on how to make humanity more humane. What are some other pathways that you have in mind? 

[Bhim]

Groups who perceive that they're oppressed in some way always do band together because the change they could effect would benefit them. Except for the majority, apparently.

 

The fact is there are many American women who are content with their lot in life and have no use for feminism. Some even speak out against it. Perhaps feminism sounds good on paper but too many women see a downside. The irony is there are male feminists who fight for rights for women who don't want them. 

 

Is it any wonder that men frequently say they can't understand women? Hell, women can't understand women!

 

My observation is similar.

 

Personally I think the issue with feminism, and its failure to form a cohesive voting block, is that gender simply isn't something that forms a community.  There are plenty of other ways that people identify with a group.  Christians are a communal group (as we know all to well in this forum).  So are Jews and Muslims.  People also identify by race, e.g. blacks, Latinos, Koreans.  Even socioeconomic status can be a unifying force.  But gender?  I'm not so sure about that one.

 

Let me take my own community, Indian-American Hindus, as an example.  I grew up in this community, and am part of it now.  Like most communities, it is a family of families.  When I was a kid adults used to get together, we kids would play upstairs in someone's house, and then we'd all participate in a pooja (Hindu religious ritual) and share a meal.  I don't know if there were any feminists in community I grew up with (I can tell you that both my wife and mother are NOT feminists, and would condemn feminism strongly), but I do  know that gender was not the unifying force.  Race/relgion can form a community because you can separate out one particular racial or religious group and still have a cohesive society, but you can't form a viable society out of one gender anymore than you could out of one age group.  That's not how human families are structured, and so it can't be extended to a larger society.

 

Families consists of both genders.  Why would most people ever try to separate it on the basis of gender, or favor policies that could hurt either their brothers or sisters disproportionately?  Feminists attempt to form a unifying force out of gender, but I don't know that most people are defined by gender more strongly than they are by race, religion, profession, or a whole host of other statuses I could think of.  Even the Equal Rights Amendment was defeated in part due to the activities of women.  And let's not forget that for all the bad press Republicans for waging a war on women, the party would be dead in the water without the support of women.  As you say, women are a majority of the country and of the world, and all of us know women who are integral to our lives.  Some may believe that men and women should occupy "traditional" gender roles, but in general even these people aren't out to actively hurt women.  What kind of person with a mother would want to do that?

 

Perhaps the fatal flaw of feminism is that it tries to make gender a person's defining trait, or what our resident sociologist might call a "master status" (feel free to correct me on that Orbit).  I suppose some women think of their gender this way, but a hell of a lot seem not to.  One might as well try to form a voting block out of people who are named Steve.

[Thurisaz]

One quick thought on the question of "are there too few women in positions of top power, e. g. high government officials?"...

 

Considering that we're living in a system currently that basically rewards primarily psychopaths with giving them that kind of position... maybe, yes there is an inequality, but we should change it into the other direction? Build a world where sanity and a sufficient level of willingness to act ethical are absolutely mandatory for every leadership position?

 

Really, oftentimes I think that maybe... just maybe... there aren't that many women in top ruling positions because they prefer to stay sane ethical human beings. If that should be true... would we really want to push them to the top, considering what they would have to sacrifice along the way? Or would we rather want to give those men at the top some... good therapy?

 

Just food for thought. Discuss if you want to.

[sparklingphoenix]

I don't think a woman would necessarily not be in power in order to keep her sanity. I could see the desire to remain ethical as a reason, though. If a woman wants to have a powerful position, and she is good and deserving of it, it's her choice to make whatever sacrifices that might entail. Really there just needs to be equal opportunity both both men and women, and ideally the right people will be elected regardless of gender. 

[mymistake]

One quick thought on the question of "are there too few women in positions of top power, e. g. high government officials?"...

 

Considering that we're living in a system currently that basically rewards primarily psychopaths with giving them that kind of position... maybe, yes there is an inequality, but we should change it into the other direction? Build a world where sanity and a sufficient level of willingness to act ethical are absolutely mandatory for every leadership position?

 

Really, oftentimes I think that maybe... just maybe... there aren't that many women in top ruling positions because they prefer to stay sane ethical human beings. If that should be true... would we really want to push them to the top, considering what they would have to sacrifice along the way? Or would we rather want to give those men at the top some... good therapy?

 

Just food for thought. Discuss if you want to.

 

 

My answer is yes.  When women are 51% (or more) of the population then having 20% of the leadership roles filled by women is definitely under representative.  However at least in elections there is nobody playing gate keeper.  Female candidates simply must raise money and convince voters so in that sense it's an even playing field.  As more women earn their place in office having female officials will become more and more normal.  Once a woman has been president and Senate Majority Leader we will wind up with a lot more women in politics.  I consider political ethics to be a separate topic.

[mymistake]

What are some other pathways that you have in mind? 

 

 

 

Gender equality is simply the right thing to do.  It's like ending slavery.  It's a human rights issue.

 

 

If you were asking about a specific plan then I'm sorry to say I don't know.

[sparklingphoenix]

 

What are some other pathways that you have in mind? 

 

 

 

Gender equality is simply the right thing to do.  It's like ending slavery.  It's a human rights issue.

 

 

If you were asking about a specific plan then I'm sorry to say I don't know.

 

Yes this is what I think too. I was wondering if you had a specific plan, because at the moment feminism is what I see advocating for equal rights- for women at least. I don't know how else to bring about equality. .-. If anyone else has a great idea I'd love to know. 

[Jutta]

 

 

I think we do, but still the overwhelming majority of those in power are men. Weird, but true.

 

"For the first time in Canada's history, and exactly 90 years since the first female Member of Parliament strode into the green chamber, women make up a quarter of the 308 seats in the House of Commons." 2015

 

"Women have served in the United States House of Representatives since the 1917 entrance of Jeannette Rankin, aRepublican from Montana. Nearly 300 women have since served in the House. As of January 2015, there are 84 female representatives, or 19.3% of the body.^{[1]" (wikipedia)}

"Before anyone gets too excited about these milestones, keep in mind that women make up over 50% of the population. Women make up less than one-fifth of Congress, even after hitting the 100-member mark."

 

 

Twenty precent is an underrepresentation but the number keeps growing.  I expect to see a female US president very soon.  I predict it will happen within the next thee elections.

 

That's something I won't live to see, unless there is an election with one very blatantly inept candidate vs a very centrist to right wing well-funded woman candidate with no young children. 

I used to think it was a possibility until about 2008. I remember when Sarah Palin was first announced as vice presidential candidate (and this was before people knew anything about her). Many people of whom I would never expect to hear criticism whined, "Why isn't she at home taking care of her retarded kid? Wow! Look at that expensive wardrobe! She can't even maintain control over her own daughter! She's gotta have hair extensions!" et cetera. This came from hard-Right Republicans, McCain fans and Democrats I knew. She's not my favorite political figure by any means, but in all fairness, she was held to a different standard right from the start. I'm not implying that the unfair standard was laid out by men, though, since women were just as judgmental about her personal life.

I guess in other countries, particularly in Europe, they've had a history of female monarchs, so the idea of a female PM was never that far fetched. Castiel233, your experiences concerning misogyny/misandry might be completely different from mine-- I'm not really sure how people in the UK think about issues like this. 

Unfortunately, in our country, people often mistake the US president for a Supreme Highness who rules over the land, and he's always been a "strong man", takes the credit or blame for everything. In reality, presidents only have so much power over what happens regardless of how many votes they earn. However, it almost seems as if the public expects the president to be a god-like superhero, and Americans love a male superhero. 

 

For the most part, in my day to day life, I don't think about feminism and women's rights on a daily basis-- only when I hear about some of the insane ideas that dribble out of the mouths of law makers in my own country (many of whom come from fundamentalist christian circles). Ideas such as: mandatory ultrasound probes prior to abortions, paternal consent prior to abortions, de-funding planned parenthood-- especially since many people seek out services such as these for valid reasons. Some uninsured women go to planned parenthood for exams for other health issues aside from unplanned pregnancies. I'm not in love with the idea of abortion, but I would not want the option taken away from me if I were raped or if my life was in danger. Reproductive choices are being taken away in some states in the US. In the US. There's a huge well-funded group of fundamentalists who seem to squarely focused on removing reproductive/ prophylactic control from women-- It also seems as if those who speak out publicly against such actions wind up branded man-hating leftie feminists by aforementioned fundamentalist types. I don't know what their deal is-- I imagine they feel it's unbiblical for us to be deprived of god's love (you know, birth pain? a dozen children? poverty?). Perhaps they just want a huge number of tax payers to be born, or more children to recruit into the military to do gawd's work in heathen lands. 

In a large part of my country today, calling someone leftie and/or feminist is a complete slur. For a guy to be called a lefty, it seems, you might as well call him a p*$$y. Calling a woman a feminist, you might as well caller her a slut, a d*ke (which makes no sense in regards to reproductive rights), man-hater. 

Somehow, wanting your girlfriend to have access to birth control makes a guy a p*$$y? Even where I live, I wouldn't dare bring up any of these topics at work.

 

Never in my teens would I have thought any of these issues would be at risk. I remember politicians being more moderate when I was younger. Yet now, we keep sliding far right with social issues pertaining to fundamentalist evangelical interests over time, state by state. For example: State funded christian schools? Here in godless yankee country? Mandatory two day waiting period for an abortion? Christians allowed to harass clinic workers? WTF? 

 

I don't see these issues as being completely promoted by men, however. I think that fundamentalism is more of a threat, and it has male and female supporters. It's a self-righteous paternalistic christian fundamentalism "we know what's better for you-- just have faith in gawd and a man will take care of you and your child of rape shall be blessed" that's like a cancer growing in my country. I feel as if any feminism is welcome when I see that kind of threat coming between me and what rights I currently have-- 

[duderonomy]

Is it just me? Has anyone else noticed that there is a difference between men and women?  I think I first noticed this in second grade. 

[ToHellWithMe]

Is it just me? Has anyone else noticed that there is a difference between men and women?  I think I first noticed this in second grade.

Yes, they are very different, for whatever reason. In the first grades, physically not much so, but their behaviour and targets of interest are already very different, and they prefer to associate with members of their own gender. Interacton with the opposite gender is already subject to strict rules and scrutiny and testing by peers.

I wonder how much (if any) of this runs deeper than their roles, circumstances, treatment and expectations. Even if those are the only reasons, the effects seem very profound to me.

[Castiel233]

I guess in other countries, particularly in Europe, they've had a history of female monarchs, so the idea of a female PM was never that far fetched. Castiel233, your experiences concerning misogyny/misandry might be completely different from mine.

 

 

 

 

To be fair, I have only met a couple of feminists and while the experience was off putting I do not think all feminists are man-haters. Equally I used to work with a guy who hated women, and who, once in the pub (we used to go for a drink as a group on a Friday lunch time) loudly proclaimed his pride at being a virgin because according to him ,women are disgusting.......Neither one is (or was) indicative of their respective genders.

 

I guess as with a lot of isms, one can point to heroes and villains according to ones biased. Anti feminists can finger point to Solanas as a prime example of the "evils" of feminism, those in the pro camp can hold up the example of Besant. 

 

The same can be applied to atheism........Christians love to hold up Stalin and Mao, with a look how wicked it is (purely because they were atheists).........Atheists can in turn hold up Robert Ingersoll as a positive example or Christ as a negative one........

 

Again, I am no expert in these matters, but I guess different isms meaning different things to different people. You find this with ideology I think.Different groups maintain they tread the right path while others, with the same name branded  ideology but a different take on it are seen to have a warped view......... 

 

I should not presume to tell a woman what feminism is, or what her interpretation of it should be, any more then I should allow a Christian to lecture me, on what I should feel about atheism. Each to their own lights and the sanctuary of their own mind providing it does not hurt others.

[Leo]

RedStar said, among other insightful things, that differing personal experiences don't cancel each other out. Well stated.

Jutta, you may want to check out the Youtube videos of a woman Karen Straughan, or the feminist author and critic Christina Hoff Somers.

You are also talking about life 50 years ago. That means, it's extremely relevant to you who was alive. But to anyone younger than that who hasn't been alive during that time, life is quite different. I'm a man in my mid 40s, my sisters played in the dirt and ran around just like us boys. Our mother had some, what seems to me, unrealistic and unreasonable requirements of them re: being "ladylike" whatever that amounts to, but they were given full measure of opportunity. One, and my sister in law, are commissioned officers in the U.S. military, one a marine and one a soldier in the army.

I think one aspect to 50 years ago was plain: you could have a group, be it blacks or whoever, where infractions of one member meant punishment for all members. We see that with honorless killings in the Middle East, and other similar overt monstrous acts. Real justice, in your case, real righting of wrongs against women, doesn't mean we just go grab some random man, like Muslims grabbing some random woman, or Christians some random atheist, or white supremacists some random African American. It means that we think enough of the woman who was wronged, to go out and get the person who actually wronged that particular woman. Anything less solves nothing, only provides and illusion of justice to the injured party, and creates more randomly assigned injured parties, parties who may not have even been born when the injustice was carried out.

[Thurisaz]

 

Is it just me? Has anyone else noticed that there is a difference between men and women?  I think I first noticed this in second grade.

Yes, they are very different ...] I wonder how much (if any) of this runs deeper than their roles, circumstances, treatment and expectations. Even if those are the only reasons, the effects seem very profound to me.

 

A very interesting question no? Just how much of the mental/emotional differences (the physical ones should be obvious I trust!) between the genders are nature as opposed to nurture?

 

Sadly, as far as I can tell, that's one of those topics on which it's all but impossible to find an expert with a position of professional neutrality. The issue is so ridiculously politicized, it's like fucking israel-vs-palestine or such.

 

Your mileage may vary... just talking my personal experience again here.

[duderonomy]

 

 

Is it just me? Has anyone else noticed that there is a difference between men and women?  I think I first noticed this in second grade.

Yes, they are very different ...] I wonder how much (if any) of this runs deeper than their roles, circumstances, treatment and expectations. Even if those are the only reasons, the effects seem very profound to me.

 

A very interesting question no? Just how much of the mental/emotional differences (the physical ones should be obvious I trust!) between the genders are nature as opposed to nurture?

 

Sadly, as far as I can tell, that's one of those topics on which it's all but impossible to find an expert with a position of professional neutrality. The issue is so ridiculously politicized, it's like fucking israel-vs-palestine or such.

 

Your mileage may vary... just talking my personal experience again here.

 

 

Does science have anything to say about any people anywhere (homo sapiens people only, please!), where the male stays home and the females go out with clubs or swords or guns?

[Jutta]

 

 

Is it just me? Has anyone else noticed that there is a difference between men and women?  I think I first noticed this in second grade.

Yes, they are very different ...] I wonder how much (if any) of this runs deeper than their roles, circumstances, treatment and expectations. Even if those are the only reasons, the effects seem very profound to me.

 

A very interesting question no? Just how much of the mental/emotional differences (the physical ones should be obvious I trust!) between the genders are nature as opposed to nurture?

 

Sadly, as far as I can tell, that's one of those topics on which it's all but impossible to find an expert with a position of professional neutrality. The issue is so ridiculously politicized, it's like fucking israel-vs-palestine or such.

 

Your mileage may vary... just talking my personal experience again here.

 

The best experts on those topics would probably be natural born hermaphrodites...! Or perhaps, people who opt to change their gender surgically (going on testosterone can cause major physical changes in a woman-- so much that she could "pass for a male"). Any man or woman who claims to be a gender difference expert would likely be biased. Nature or nurture? Who knows. It's like trying to explain sexual orientation.

[VanWinkle]

DefyingGravity: A side comment for you, DF. I have been here about 2 years and I have been impressed by the intelligence demonstrated on this site. But I have particularly been impressed with the intelligence of the young people who participate here. And you are a perfect example. You express yourself so well and your thoughts are well reasoned. It is a a  real pleasure to have you here.

 

As to feminism, the concept has been long over due, And it still needs to move forward. But I agree with you that some of the feminists seem to either misunderstand or over react to the movement. I have  had a few experiences in which I offered help to a woman (for example to help her move a bicycle through a heavy door) and my offer was rudely rejected. These kind of people don't have a good grasp of feminism. It is not intended to eliminate courtesy or politeness, for god's sake. It is by no means condescending to offer that kind of help. And I would hate to live in a society where to do so was not welcomed. But I must say those incidents have been few. For the most part the movement has been successful, I think. But that is from my male perspective. Rip

[Thurisaz]

The best experts on those topics would probably be natural born hermaphrodites...! Or perhaps, people who opt to change their gender surgically (going on testosterone can cause major physical changes in a woman-- so much that she could "pass for a male"). Any man or woman who claims to be a gender difference expert would likely be biased. Nature or nurture? Who knows. It's like trying to explain sexual orientation.

That's one reason why I brought up the 4thwavers blog before. Blogger Athena is a transgendered woman... and though I do think she's somewhat over-the-top regarding a few of her views it's quite interesting - to me at least - to read the opinions of one who has definitely seen the issue from both sides

[Lilith666]

DG, I think people should wear what they want to. Even so, I tend to judge people who wear their pants (or don't...) so that their underwear is showing. It doesn't seem classy. But whatever, my opinion won't change them, and you wear what you want. If others don't like it, so what. It doesn't make whatever they are thinking true.

[Leo]

I have to echo Rip's statements re: the young people on here. The challenges of deconversion are particularly difficult on the youngest I think, where they may be dependent on fundamentalist parents for their support. And yes, I also look with admiration and chagrin at young people on here: Admiration for you, chagrin for my younger self.

[Bhim]

Here's a developing news story which is representative of why I do not support feminism:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/09/german-professor-rebuked-for-discrimination-over-indias-problem

 

The tl;dr is as follows: an Indian student applied to an internship with Professor Annette Beck-Sickinger, who is a female professor in Germany.  The professor rejected him and responded that she did so because her group has many female students, and due to the rape epidemic in India she is not accepting male students from India.  The German ambassador to India heavily criticized this professor and she apologized.  As far as I know, she still has not offered this student the job, which makes her apology worthless.

 

First of all, the rape rate in India is five times lower than in Germany: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/India/Crime

(If anyone wants to talk about unreported cases, please cite reliable statistics instead of simply stating your opinion)

 

Feminists in America attempt to rile public emotion and curtail civil rights for accused rapists by lying, i.e. stating the debunked statistic that one in five female college students is a victim of sexual assault.  This is over twelve times the reported rape rate in India.  Now having gotten this out of the way, I want to use this as an opportunity to show that feminism has departed from liberalism, and has become a form of bigotry.  No doubt many here will object, stating that not all feminists are misandrists.  Maybe this is the case, but it remains true that all men are still potential victims of women feminists who hold positions of authority.  This strongly mirrors the #NotAllMen and #YesAllWomen competing Twitter hashtags which trended several months ago.  Just as Muslim moderates claim that extremists hijack their religion, yet do nothing to stop their extremist brethren, so do alleged mainstream feminists allow people such as Professor Beck-Sickinger to determine the direction of their movement.

 

Is this non-representative of feminism?  If you are a feminist who has posted in this thread and believe that this is not a genuine representation of feminism, then I encourage you to make a post on this thread and say so.  Because I've read a lot of news about cases like this.  I've seen almost no female feminists fighting to protect men from discrimination at the hands of misandrists who wield power.