Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. Yet you are doing so well at making up accusations about the men here. I have no doubt that you believe what you say about us however the trouble is that believing doesn't make it true. I do hope you lean to compensate for your bias. I'm glad you won't cross into rape accusations. I will give you a kudos for that. I was accused of stating that I hate all men on here by *particular posters*, that I was a b*tch by *particular posters*, that I feel "extra equal" by *particular posters* . . . . Yes and look at how hard you worked to earn it. Perhaps if you would act cool people would treat you cool. And by people I also mean the ones who happen to be men. Act cool according to what you decide-- which means, I must belittle anything regarding women's rights, or backpedal and complain about how obnoxious people in my own gender are. And... let certain posters drown me out in their numbers... so I go away. That isn't what I think. Why am I so happy with Ravenstar's criticism of bad behaviors common to men? Anyhow "cool" is defined by society. I didn't invent it. I learned it. It is becoming clear that you refuse to be reached. That is a shame. You are welcome to be part of our community but to get there you would have to overcome your bias. You are continuously calling me out and haunting my posts-- and refuse to not have the last word. I am biased against ridiculous "gang up" behavior that ensues on posts regarding this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Jutta, I really have to (publicly) say, I really admire and appreciate your opinions here. I'm really sensing that you're out-numbered when it comes to the right opinion to have on this issue. And, I know from experience on a different site, that's not easy. I wanted to get as many opinions as possible, including the feminists' ones. So I would like to continue to hear from you throughout this thread because I do like your ideas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ...my gender automatically reduces my credibility. Your gender is irrelevant. You managed to destroy your credibility by your own words. one quote... by someone who obviously disagrees with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The male posters who have a major gripe against approaching the topic of "women's rights" know who they are. They come out of the woodwork every time the topic is mentioned and try their hardest to discredit it. Come on. The people discrediting feminism are Silent Loner, Orbit and you. Nobody is discrediting women's rights. Lose the chip on your shoulder. Being male doesn't make people evil. You can't name anybody in this thread who isn't for equal rights. This constant bickering arises out of the threat that perhaps there is a better pathway to gender equality. Did I write that all males are evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ...my gender automatically reduces my credibility. Your gender is irrelevant. You managed to destroy your credibility by your own words. So clever. Judging by the moderation on here, no wonder all of these particular threads end up in a train wreck. If you dislike the membership the threads and the moderation here, feel free to leave anytime. I am obviously not welcome, because I refuse to back down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Well, judging by the reply made in #160, this is not a healthy environment. One would expect more support in an ex-christian community in regards to this particular topic, considering the poor track record christianity has towards females. Oh well, no big deal, just another potential donor turns and walks away... and countless other anonymous women burned by christianity who are turned off by this thread. Why not reply to the original poster's question instead? Have you replied to the Op, Jutta? What's your opinion on feminism? All I've seen is the victim card. Trying to defend myself and the posters who are in favor of feminism/ women's rights = victim card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Don't you realize you are only proving my point? Nope. You act as if women attacking men is normal but this environment is unhealthy if men have free speech. Do certain female posters constantly get pushed out of "feminism" threads by certain male posters? Yes. Do certain male posters rant against certain female posters and give each other reps for putting the female poster down? Yes. Do certain female posters simply drop the feminism threads because they know they "can't win"? Yes. You could reverse the genders in all those statements and they would still be true. Again you want for women to be able to attack men but men must be restricted. That isn't equality. Women are not being persecuted here. What is happening is that Feminism gets examined with critical thinking and the third wave ideology doesn't handle that well. The world is what you make it. Don't bring hostility here and there won't be hostility. So essentially, I need to back down and AGREE WITH YOU that feminism is bad bad bad. I guess unless I agree with you, I'm not "cool". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Jutta, I really have to (publicly) say, I really admire and appreciate your opinions here. I'm really sensing that you're out-numbered when it comes to the right opinion to have on this issue. And, I know from experience on a different site, that's not easy. I wanted to get as many opinions as possible, including the feminists' ones. So I would like to continue to hear from you throughout this thread because I do like your ideas Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Jutta is extra equal. Strange I didn't see that before. So, if you are in any way in favor of women's rights, or simply fail to agree with all of the male posters, you are a self-entitled little princess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Essentially, you are using your perceived oppressed group membership status as a tactical advantage. Now, how many logical steps do I need to take to explain why I worry that if I say the wrong thing to you in a university or workplace setting, you will accuse me of raping you in order to keep me quiet? I would appreciate if your response contains no emotional appeals whatsoever. Thank you. Really, I am accused of blaming the "victim card" here again. Apparently, I am in favor of falsely accusing people of rape. Somehow, my replies are over-emotional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ...you'll need to drop the anger down a notch or two and quit behaving like a snotty nosed kid. A potential donor walks away? Really? I've never given a dime to this site. You can't buy your way in here, and who the Hell are you to pretend to know what women should do? If this is your idea of feminism, to shame other women into a way of thinking or acting, then you are no different than the men you seem to disdain. Apparently, as a female poster, I am not allowed to display verbal aggression in my posts, although others are? Somehow, I claimed to disdain all men, which I didn't. Somehow I am shaming women into a particular form of feminism, although I never spelled out what my definition of "feminism" is in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 So essentially, I need to back down and AGREE WITH YOU that feminism is bad bad bad. I guess unless I agree with you, I'm not "cool". Jutta, which is it? Is having a conversation haunting you and refusing to let you have the last word? If you think I am haunting you then confirm it and I will never bother you again. To answer your question no, you do not have to agree with me about something I do not think myself. Feminism isn't bad. I have no idea why you and Orbit keep using this generic word "bad". Produce goes bad. Ideaology has specific problems. In my opinion third wave feminist ideology is, at times, counter productive and illogical. Neither one of these equates to the generic word "bad". Nor do flaws with the ideology make the people in the feminism movement bad. However you can act cool, respect men and still love third wave feminist ideology. Agreeing with me has nothing to do with respecting others. I'm just going to assume that you don't want to talk to me anymore. If you don't ask me any more direct questions or clarify otherwise this will be the last time I bother you. Sorry for any inconvenience. (edited for spelling and grammar) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 So essentially, I need to back down and AGREE WITH YOU that feminism is bad bad bad. I guess unless I agree with you, I'm not "cool". Jutta, which is it? Is having a conversation haunting you and refusing to let you have the last word? If you think I am haunting you then confirm it an I will never bother you again. To answer your question no, you do not have to agree with me about something I do not think myself. Feminism isn't bad. I have no idea why you and Orbit keep using this generic word "bad". Produce goes bad. Ideaology has specific problems. In my opinion third wave feminist ideology is, at times, counter productive and illogical. Neither one of these equates to the generic word "bad". Nor does flaws with the ideology make the people in the feminism movement bad. However you can act cool, respect men and still love third wave feminist ideology. Agreeing with me has nothing to do with respecting others. I'm just going to assume that you don't want to talk to me anymore. If you don't ask me any more direct questions or clarify otherwise this will be the last time I bother you. Sorry for any inconvenience. Please stop insisting on the last word. As I wrote previously, particular posters who agree with any aspects of feminism are crowded out and shut down-- are called out for being too aggressive, rude, over-emotional, irrational, illogical... or just plain b&tchy. If you disagree with me so much, why pay any attention at all? I can look at your post history and see non-stop replies to mine over the past few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CutiePie Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I'm all for equality, however, it gets me upset when some of them just want to overpower men, that's not equal. There's a huge difference in wanting equality and just wanting to be above the opposite sex & that is what some people in general struggle with, the concept that women should overpower men and that I don't support. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Dissenting voices are welcome, I can't see any real evidence of being shut down or crowding out. No one is being denied a voice here, or an opinion, but it seems to be getting a away from the OP........................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareOne Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I believe in equality of the sexes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Actually, that was in reply to the gang-up of posters that usually ensues whenever a female posts something regarding feminism/woman's rights that a few particular male posters don't agree with or find offensive. My concept of adult/adult rape is a violent one-- broken ribs, 3rd degree tearing, bruises-- things likely to be documented by a physical exam. I'm not a rape expert. I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. Jutta, first, thank you for responding to my post. I hope you will do so again. I've bolded a sentence in the above quote by you. This approach to false rape accusations is terribly dangerous. It is unjust. And it is why I will vote for anyone over a feminist candidate unless s/he explicitly addresses the rape issue multiple times. Please allow me to explain my strong language. As I said in my earlier post, the very accusation of rape can destroy a man. A trial is a psychologically and financially devastating process, and often times the accused person has no job for the duration of the trial, because virtually no company would want to employ someone who is believed to be a rapist. Your solution to this, that the accused should get a good lawyer, is like telling a bullied nerd on the playground to fight his own battles, when the bully (in this analogy, the full force of the district attorney's office) is an unstoppable juggernaut. You say that you are a bad liar, but many others are not. And still many other women were psychologically damaged by their rape to the point that they truly believe the person they are accusing is guilty, even when they have accused the wrong man. Furthermore, what if I don't have the money to pay for a good legal defense, because I've been fired on account of the rape allegation? You who claim to fight for the rights of the oppressed are supporting a policy which allows only the rich to protect themselves from false accusations of rape. Your concept of rape is simply not correct. Yes there are cases of rape which are as violent as you describe. There is also quite a number of cases in which there is no visible injury. As I already said, the legal definition of rape does not include any requirement of bodily harm. Rape is forced sexual activity, nothing more, nothing else. Example: Bill Cosby. The world you envision is one in which men can be destroyed at the whim of any woman who is willing to claim rape. It is a horror of anarchy, it is the reason I can not support feminism. I don't like men's rights advocates because they demean women and treat them as chattel. But chattel is preferable to false imprisonment for a crime that one did not commit, and I would happily put my political and financial support towards these people simply to stop feminists from eroding defendants' rights. I fear that your casual dismissal of defendants' rights with the blithe suggestion "get a good lawyer" will undermine the very foundation of American jurisprudence, and is itself a rape of Justice. You have punted the issue by claiming "I'm not a legal expert." I'm not a legal expert either, but I know how to read articles or textbooks written by lawyers, and there is a comprehensible legal definition of consent. So claiming ignorance does not excuse you from having a well-defined position on this issue. Many who initiate campaigns like "no means no" and "yes means yes" are not legal experts. They aren't hindered from having opinions on the topic of false accusations, so why are you? This thread is a microcosm of the American social landscape regarding the rape issue. Most feminists and others on this thread are very reasonable, and say a lot of things that I agree with. But because you exist, and are not unilaterally condemned by them for dismissing the rights of the accused, I can't support any of them. Make no mistake: because there are people who espouse your opinion regarding false accusations, I cannot vote for any female political candidate, because while none of them actively support the erosion of the defendants' rights, they are sometimes financially backed by people who do. If I vote for a feminist candidate who claims to only be in favor of equal pay for equal work, but her donors include people who want to expand rape shield laws, then can I really expect this candidate to work to punish false accusers? No, I cannot. and this is why your view dismays me to this extent. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted your position on anything. I really hope that I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 I want us to address more specifics when it comes to feminism. I feel like we're all over the place, I want to see if I can bring it back a bit...one problem I have with feminism is the distortion of facts to victimize women. They keep riding off the whole "women make 23% less than men" claim while ignoring the fact that women chose more social, safer, educational/humanities-related jobs which pay less. Also, women take time off to have kids and take care of them, while men can still build their experience. They compare apples to oranges, so it obviously won't be equal. Along with that, they try to make it look like schools (in the USA) favor boys, when it's proven girls excel in English while most boys are behind and that girls are more likely to graduate high school and go onto college. They also lie about sexual assault and domestic violence statistics. Women are just as likely to abuse their husbands as men are to abuse their wives. And they count sexual assault as anything from actual rape or sexual harassment to someone talking to you when you didn't want them to. I'll add some links to support these later because I'm on iPod right now. But if you're going to make such huge claims, don't lie about them to support your cause. That really annoys me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 This thread is a microcosm of the American social landscape regarding the rape issue. Most feminists and others on this thread are very reasonable, and say a lot of things that I agree with. But because you exist, and are not unilaterally condemned by them for dismissing the rights of the accused, I can't support any of them. Make no mistake: because there are people who espouse your opinion regarding false accusations, I cannot vote for any female political candidate, because while none of them actively support the erosion of the defendants' rights, they are sometimes financially backed by people who do. If I vote for a feminist candidate who claims to only be in favor of equal pay for equal work, but her donors include people who want to expand rape shield laws, then can I really expect this candidate to work to punish false accusers? No, I cannot. and this is why your view dismays me to this extent. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted your position on anything. I really hope that I have. I argued against the behavior of posters on here towards women they don't agree with. You are pounding on the false rape issue for some reason and essentially insinuating that all women are in favor of false-rape-claims against men, which is bizarre. What rich donors throw money at rabid man haters in our country? I see more backwards anti-woman sentiment in the very powerful fringes of our government, not vis versa... mostly made up of christian fundamentalists. I have a very limited experience with rape, sorry, therefor I am not an expert. I don't sit around all day obsessing over rape, what constitutes rape and what doesn't. My only experience with courts involve family court. I don't follow high profile rape cases you mention-- the media loves a circus. I have a distinct feeling that NO REPLY I give you would satisfy you, since you already stated "I cannot vote for any female political candidate"-- why would you give a d@mn about my opinion? You are obviously looking for an opportunity just to slam me. I've already been shot down. No, I am not in favor of false rape claims, just as I am against false child-abuse claims, false harassment claims. A false rape or sexual harassment claim could happen to a woman, too, in this litigous age, so it's not just a man versus woman issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 *watches with a coke and some popcorn* Raven, DefyingGravity, good stuff. I'd rather not comment in any way on the others, for reasons that I hope will be obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Who needs Netflix, anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 *watches with a coke and some popcorn* Raven, DefyingGravity, good stuff. I'd rather not comment in any way on the others, for reasons that I hope will be obvious. Thinking about Germany vs US-- don't they have kindergarten at a very young age? 3 years old or so? And some kind of stipend paid to parents for each child born? I have a Facebook friend who lives there. He's my age, has four kids, works as a plumber, and his wife is a "homemaker". In the US, there is no way on earth the average person could survive with one income and four kids. They're doing fine from what I can tell. One of the issues I find irritating in my country, is the lengths to which pro-lifers go to create barriers between women and contraception, access to abortion. Yet these same individuals comprise the same groups that are against any forms of public assistance in any shape or form. As much as I've seen people abusing the welfare system, and social security here-- there are those of us who struggle week to week with daycare bills, medical bills, and can't qualify for any public assistance at all. I'm fairly certain that more widespread services for children and families of children, the abortion rate would drop. I also have no personal issues with stay-at-home mothers (or fathers), since raising children is a huge job in itself. It's a 24-hour job, no less, and I respect people who do it. Naturally, the number of women who raise children skews the female/male wage ratio, so I agree with DefyingGravity-- it's bizarre for some women's groups to expound on that while dismissing stay-at-home mothers as if they weren't working at all. There is no incentive to stay at home and raise one's children during their infancy here. I was allowed six weeks unpaid leave after my son was born-- after a one day hospital stay after having him. From my understanding, some men in Europe get long paid leave after children are born, let alone women. If we demanded that in this country, we'd be considered freeloaders, "socialist commie femi-nazi pinkos", or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autumn2909 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I'm a feminist because I believe in social, educational economic, political equality for the sexes. Man hating /misandry frankly has no place in feminism. Intersectionality is key IMHO- the universal struggle for human rights for all women across social, racial etc backgrounds. I'm also a massive supporter of things like the "everyday sexism" project- it's still too acceptable to catcall, harass, grope, assault and rape women because of how they're dressed/ because they're women who dare to be out in public. /2 cents. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 1, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2015 ...my gender automatically reduces my credibility. Your gender is irrelevant. You managed to destroy your credibility by your own words. one quote... by someone who obviously disagrees with me. Pay better attention to what people actually post. That remark in no way implies any disagreement with whatever content you may have presented, or even your opinions. It speaks only to your attitude and behavior here toward others. You came in looking for a fight and when you got some resistance you count it as a win and proof for whatever point you're trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 In the 1960s when I was a child, my mom would say, "It's a man's world." I did not understand what she meant. In the early 70s, she told me that her pay was less than the pay of men doing jobs with less responsibility than her job. I asked her why she got paid less and she said that what management said was that the men had families to support. Mom then stopped talking and just looked in my teenage eyes waiting for me to understand on my own. After a few minutes I got it. My mom was also supporting a large family and so the excuse of management was totally bogus. It was not about who was supporting families. Rather, it was about gender privilege and control. At that same time that I came to understand the irony my mother was pointing out to me, I came to understand what mom meant those several years earlier when she said, "It's a man's world." I then knew it was not a compliment, but was a statement of profound unfairness against women and children because as my mom was deprived of fair pay, I, her male child, was also deprived of money for groceries, new shoes, etc. It takes time to thoroughly cleanse the societal mindset that my mother faced from men who thought it was perfectly acceptable to pay women less than what they deserved solely because they happen to be women. Though we have come a long way since my mom's experiences, I think it is still worthwhile for women and men to continue working toward greater gender equality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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