What's Your Opinion On Feminism?

[Margee]

I always loved this ( funny) little simple quote that I read about men and woman. It went like this....

 

(Woman to man) I am stronger and smarter than you in different ways and

(Man to woman) I am stronger and smarter than you in different ways sooooooo

Why don't we try to help each other?

 

Wouldn't be nice if it was that simple? 

[buffettphan]

When I started this topic, it was just because I wanted to see the different views on an issue I've been struggling to personally understand myself. I was hoping to get into the complexity of it a little more and have a rational, mature discussion with other people, including the feminists, anti-feminists, and hey, even MRAs. I was going to include our discussion in a journalist essay I'm going write soon. But all I see is that this is a hot and touchy subject for a lot of people. The last 3 pages of this thread as been fighting. Had I known that there were issues with feminism in this site before, I wouldn't have posted. So I apologize for my part in that.

Is there a way to delete this entire thing, so everyone can just move on?

 

And Leo, you're blind?!?

 

 

DG, I have been following this thread since its beginning.  You have no reason to apologize.  So don't feel bad.    Certain individual/s just can't seem to carry on a mature discussion no matter how many opportunities they are given.   Believe it or not, this thread is actually pretty calm compared to some of the other feminism threads.    

 

I can delete the thread if you want, but personally, I'd rather not.  At least not yet.  I was, however, thisclose to locking it a couple of pages back.    

[Leo]

Here's a vote for not deleting the thread. To the OP I would just say, it's okay if a thread causes some people to react. You said nothing unkind. Not in the least. And you didn't "start anything" either.

 

It's just difficult when you're dealing with sacred cows like feminism and religion. Well not religion, fortunately, on this site. But any ideology with the "If you're not for us, you're against us," thinking. And yes, I'm blind, I hadn't seen that quote you asking me to clarify that. But I'm far more "privileged" than the guy I met on the way to the bank machine to get some cash. That homeless guy, I'm assuming he is homeless, would be higher on the "privilege" scale than me, if we blind people held the same sort of contests about who has it harder, as the feminists appear to be doing. But that really doesn't make any rational sense, does it? I'm sitting here in my living room, on a computer, not going to be harassed by a police officer or yelled at by a woman for being creepy just for being there, or being rained on, going without food, or any number of other challenges. This idea of "privilege" is so amazingly complex and challenging.

 

Margee, I loved your post. I think, outside the industrial complex, what you posted is actually what most of us really want. But getting along doesn't sell as many books and movies, and isn't as sensationalist, as a blaming each other. My brother did a tour in Afghanistan and some other countries over there, I think Iraq for awhile. But he came back saying the same thing: "Those people are just like you and me, man. Just trying to make a living and get by." And that's it, at least outside the dogma compounds and money making rackets that are these movements.

[Margee]

 

Margee, I loved your post.

 

 Thank you Leo. I happen to love all your posts and think that you are a brilliant man!! Thank you for always encouraging me in your posts.

 

And I also vote to keep this thread alive. We can all learn so much from one another if we stay calm, and have an open minded spirit. We really do need to understand that men and woman ARE different and we speak a different language to each other most of the time. It's a proven fact that we have different brains. We need to recognize this!! Relationships break up all the time due to this dilemma. The different brains between men and woman have caused a lot of havoc over the centuries!!

 

hug Leo

[Onyx]

No deletion here, please.

[milesaway]

I agree on not deleting this thread. We could all tease out some ideas that have a lot of merit to them. My opinion on feminism is that it's a good thing. There's nothing inherently wrong with favoring equality for everyone, and talking about the problems we all face both directly and indirectly. However, when someone takes feminism (or any other set of ideas, really) to the nth degree and bashes everyone and everything for not being ABC or XYZ enough, or when someone uses the label to alienate everyone, that's when it becomes problematic. The 'with us or against us' mentality is a HUGE red flag, and we had enough of that in the churches we all came from. We as women sometimes have a lot of shit to deal with, like street harassment or abusive relationships, and some of this stuff hits closer to home for some than it does for others. That doesn't mean it's any less of an issue, or that it's not worth talking about. 

 

That said, don't let your ideas and your worldviews become a prison.  

[Thurisaz]

(EDIT)

 

I posted what I thought was kind of a good way to clear up at least some of the shit that's lying around in this thread now, but minutes later in the shower realized that I had missed to consider several aspects that lie outside my very personal experience. Oh well.

[Bhim]

I would also vote to keep this thread open, and reiterate that DG was right to start this topic despite her reservations to the contrary.

 

I have been unable to obtain an answer from Orbit regarding my earlier questions, which is unfortunate since he's the expert here.  However I will ask the following to all who have identified as feminist.  Would you be willing to comment on the feminist posture regarding the issue of rape, which I mentioned in an earlier post?  If you didn't see the link in my post or the opinion piece that I linked to, I am referring to an op-ed in the Washington Post in which Zerlina Maxwell, who is a lawyer, states her belief that the default position of society should be to believe victims or rape when they accuse specific individuals as perpetrators.

 

Personally I believe - along with American jurisprudence - that all people accused of rape or any other crime should be presumed innocent.  No one should lose their job or get kicked out of school due to an accusation, but should first be found guilty in a trial that is heavily weighted in their favor, and in which they have the right to directly confront their accuser.  I would like to hear all opinions on this matter, whether people agree or differ from me.  Please write as many words as you are able to; I promise I will read ten page posts with great interest.

 

Like I said, I believe in gender equality, but this is a deal-breaker for me.  If I have to choose between women's equality and keeping innocent people (male or female!) out of prison...well, that's an easy choice.  But I don't want to make that choice.  I cannot ever vote for any political candidate who supports any form of feminism, unless he or she assents that they favor the rights of accused people over the rights of victims.  This is a principle enshrined in American law: the rights of the accused are more important than the rights of victims.  A lot more important.  A victim denied justice is a tragedy, but an innocent man or woman who is in prison is a far, far greater tragedy.  We are willing to let scores of rapists go free, merely to prevent one non-rapist for being imprisoned because he was falsely accused of rape.  I will always favor the accused over victims, and anyone who believes in American legal tradition should believe the same.  Please tell me I have nothing to fear from feminism, and I am eager to join the cause.  I want the female members of my family to be paid as much as men for the same work and to be accorded equal respect, but not at the cost of living in a world where I could be imprisoned for alleged rape without a trial that is biased in my favor.

[Bhim]

That's awful, plus, people would have been more likely to believe the accusation because he was a chauvinist. That in itself is unfair too. These days when accusations of sex crimes (either against women or children) occur I very often see people jump to immediately believe the accuser before there's been any evidence presented and can honestly say that this is something that I hate. It seems that this mostly happens due to emotional reactions hat people have to an allegation, especially if they have been a victim themselves. I can understand that it would be horrendous for a genuine victim to disclose abuse and not be believed, however, since we live in a world where people can and do lie about such things, all allegations must be investigated thoroughly to try to establish the facts.

 

I think sometimes people can forget that when a false accusation is made, the accused becomes a victim. In cases where many people believe is person is a rapist when they aren't, their lives can be forever ruined by it and this can never be completely fixed, especially since there are some people who will hold to what they believe in spite of evidence. As I said earlier, guilt or innocence should never be decided based on emotion.

Hi RedStar, thank you for your comments.  And I thank you even more for recognizing, as I do, that false accusations can destroy peoples' lives.  Often when I say what I have said in my previous post, people assume that I somehow support violence against women.  On the contrary I hate it, and frankly I find men who beat their wives or girlfriends to be quite detestable, unfit to live under the rule of law, and worthy of the same physical abuse to which they subject women.  The point I find difficult to communicate to others is that the seriousness of the alleged crime is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not we should bias the judicial system in favor of defendants.  It doesn't matter if a person is accused of genocide; he or she still should not face any punishment whatsoever unless the burden of reasonable doubt is met by a competent prosecutor.

 

The person I referred to in my earlier post was not a good guy.  He actively despised women and thought they should be treated as chattel (yes, people with Ph.D.'s in physics can be misogynists too).  He dated a different woman every few months.  I tried talking to several of his girlfriends to convince them not to continue their relationships with him, but his mental stranglehold on them was strong enough that I did not prevail.  If I had a daughter, I wouldn't let her within a hundred feet of someone like this.  But I also know with certainty that he did not beat his girlfriend at the date and time she accused him of doing so.  I strongly disapprove of misogyny, but it is not a crime.  If my "friend" can have his life ruined by a false accusation of domestic abuse, then you or I could likewise be brought to ruination by a false accusation of an entirely different nature.  Once this precedent is set, what is to stop a person who doesn't like you from making a false charge of robbery and having you imprisoned?  What is to stop some racist person from accusing me of attempting to join Islamic State and having me sent to a detention facility (a lot of people these days have trouble distinguishing Hindus from Muslims, so this is a real threat to me)?

 

I am in favor of gender equality, but regardless of what one believes concerning this topic, surely we can all agree that the rights of the accused outweigh the rights of victims.  It is a bad thing to fear violence from your fellow citizen.  But when an accuser can wreak havoc upon your life with but a word, every fellow citizen becomes a threat.  Zerlina Maxwell envisions a world in which a person who dislikes me can strip me of my liberty by merely uttering the word "rape."  And the very prospect of this horror scares the living daylights out of me.  It pains me to say this, but I could never support feminism until mob culture is eradicated from the movement.  Feminist thought must evolve to the point that it is unthinkable to falsely accuse someone, or to deny an accused person the presumption of innocence.  This is not a men's issue, for I will remind everyone here that women are at risk of false accusations as well, only the nature of the crimes differs.  Once it becomes commonplace to have a man dismissed from his job on the grounds of an unproven accusation, it is a very short leap to do the same to a woman.  The presumption of innocence is a precious and inalienable right, and this should not be something over which there is any argument at all.

[duderonomy]

Close the thread, don't close the thread, I don't care, myself. I read from scratch until page five, and I suspect I'll get to read the rest of it if the thread is closed or not.

 

Delete the thread? That should never happen, IMHO. I myself have posted so much crap here in Ex-C threads in times past that I wish a lot of threads could be deleted, but I've learned the most from the ones I posted in where I would now be ashamed of what I believed or didn't understand when I posted in them.

 

I clicked on this thread because I thought maybe I could once and for all find out what feminism is. I haven't so far, but I have seen that a lot of you that I respect are just puny little humans like me.

I still respect you though, puny little humans who, like me, are spinning through space and rushing toward death and trying to get comfortable in your skin first. If we can get comfortable in our skin, others that come after us will for sure see that we were comfortable in our skins and want to follow us.

 

Hopefully, after reading threads like this and others on this site, those that come after us will know that if they feel uncomfortable in their skins it is perfectly natural to squirm and squeak until they find their own place in the pile of humanity. Hopefully, they will also be able to figure out that "fair is fair"  by then, and it won't be an issue anymore, because if they want to survive, they must be like water and seek their own level.

 

 

[NoOne]

Thanks everyone. You're all really kind. See, I like these words of wisdom that you're all offering now, that's what I wanted. And to Leo, sorry if I came off as abrupt or insensitive, I just really didn't know so it came as a surprise.

[Leo]

You didn't come off as either abrupt or insensitive, I merely missed that before. Sometimes the voice screen readers we use can end up skipping things. No, it takes an awful lot to offend me.

 

You're right, Bhim, I love what you said. I, too, was hoping one such as Orbit would be able to address these very salient issues. The idea of being accused without any evidence is a dreadful thought, and one I've faced in multiple situations not at all related to feminism, fortunately not under Law but certainly as a kid, and even as an employee. Where the accuser has all the power of agency, you have a very totalitarian state. Feminism's failure to address this is exactly what makes any person dedicated to our concept of justice and jurisprudence run the other way, and it has nothing at all to do with gender.

 

Bhim, we actually have had this problem before. You may or may not remember the therapist / satanic ritual moral panic in the 1980s. I remember in college two boys being locked up, presumably forever, because they allegedly killed and ritually sacrificed someone. Only years later did the evidence come out to the contrary. It is this connection, this symmetry between feminism and Christianity that, like you, terrifies me. I've been accused, fortunately it was not under Law, falsely for things. Fortunately not of a sexual or harassing nature, but even small things where you are falsely accused and denied the ability to present your side, is tarnishing. It is a weapon of power wielded by the Powerful against the rest of us. It is irrespective of gender, race, religion or anything else. But if you can accuse particularly a man, of anything sexual improper, all his fellows will run the other way, all the women around him will draw their conclusions first and ask questions later, if ever. Those two boys in the Satanic moral panic situation? I don't know what happened to them. But what a waste. How terrible!

 

And the worst part of this? The Satanic moral panic one could write off as just religion, or just uneducated people. But feminism, as Orbit explicitly states, comes from the Hallowed Halls of academia. To come from there, and demand all the respectability of academia, and at the same time demand that we dismiss jurisprudence? It will not be long before precedent being what it is, you'll be crying discrimination when it's a woman who has this done to her instead. And it doesn't matter to whom it's done, whatever gender or lack thereof: to anyone who experiences this, I can only empathize. And, perhaps ironically, it's a form of rape committed by the system, a form of personal violation that cannot be undone. I do not use that term lightly: Contrary to popular opinion, even little boys can be violated in such a fashion as I was, so I say it from that perspective. By protecting jurisprudence, you're not protecting the rapist: you're protecting your fellow women. After all, dispense with jurisprudence, and any Power that can will use it against you as easily as it will against the homeless Vietnam Vet or the janitor, or anyone else not fit for visual consumption by the bourgeois elitist who considers the aforementioned chattel for their cause.

 

I read this lawyer from the New York times, and how terrifying! The last time we heard this, about sending the right message, was by white lynch mobs in the South against black men. Perhaps feminists of this type still think like the lynch mobs that all black men rape, but can cover it up with saying it's all of us instead? Probably not. But a willingness to forego jurisprudence says a lot about society.

 

I will say the following with the most sincerity I can muster: Were it possible to charge those who violated me, I would not have it done except their jurisprudence be respected. I remember the moral panics of the 1980s, and here we are dealing with it all over again. Only this time with the elite sophisticate of academia, academia who can't be bothered to respond re: this very salient issue which could at some point even impact them.

[Thurisaz]

Folks I don't think we can simply equate the... umm... "academic branch" of feminism (which would probably be what Orbit is a part of) to the "everyday average Joe+Jane" branch. I'm sure they're not totally separate but I won't call them identical either.

 

You can in fact live most of your life only seeing one of the two and think that's all there is to feminism. I know one person that had just that kind of experience until very recently. I see that person whenever I look into a mirror.

[Leo]

I'm not even sure feminism, academic or otherwise, is in fact the problem. I was listening to a Free Domain Radio video on Youtube, about Fractional Reserve banking and the cartels involved. Instead of saying something ridiculous like either "turn back the clock" or "everything's a ok" the two of them were challenging the cartel nature of how things are going. That's what we need to do with whatever cartels are behind this brand of feminism we're talking about here. We would need to do it to the Men's Rights people too, if they actually let go of their joystick and potato chips bag long enough to become an actual movement, and gain all the power and influence over other peple that the feminists have.

 

Ironically, it reminded me of these Lesbian separatists I met when I was just a flunky intern working at a radio station, wiring rooms for sound, setting satellite feeds, flunky electronics things that more qualified interviewer types don't do. My "power-phobic", non-statist rogue self was greatly impressed by these people. They do things no wilderness survivor does: They built their own ranch, ran their own business, no demands on the State, and sided with nonstatist people in wanting to keep the cartels out of their damned pockets. They called themselves feminist, of course. But hated state-based and power-based intrusions. And called them what they were, not some invisible god like patriarchy.

 

It's the cartel nature of things that at least some of us oppose. If you think some of us are "power-phobes?" Well, you're probably right. Every power center has its trump card: the Church can send you to Hell, these particular people, whatever they are feminist or not, can have your constitutional rights taken away and have your character demonized as some kind of monster. not unlike the moral panic of the 1980s in the U.S. We probably should have started with that. It's not a man vs. women thing anyhow: we're all after the same thing. Make a living, have a place to belong in the community, be respectable and respected, enjoy life. Only predation by the Powers exploits otherwise good and sympathetic interests.

[Orbit]

Leo since you mentioned Andrea Dworkin, here's some fact-checking: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/LieDetect.html

[Leo]

There's a donate button at the bottom of that page.

 

Interesting. I had never heard most of those statements being refuted. Also, she never said all sex or even all intercourse was rape. The allegation is "penetrative" sex. Similar to the Womyn's Music Festival regulations for many years, where no penetrative device, e.g. dildo, could be brought to the occasion.

 

I've never heard anyone say Ms. Dworkin claimed all sex, it was all penetrative sex.

 

If I said "Everything made by Packard Bell was a shoddy piece of workmanship," Then someone came along and put up a site dispelling Lies about Leo, and quoted me as saying, "Everything made by an Original Equipment Manufacturer is shoddy workmanship," that's technically a straw man, since that isn't at all what I was alleged to have said.

Technically, Packard Bell was an Original Equipment manufacturer, one out of many.

 

Maybe she didn't say "all penetrative sex is rape", and that a phallus automatically means power, a concept I still struggle to even comprehend.

 

In fact, this site seems to have as much credibility as the following does for technical credibility:

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ak621/DOS/DOS-Fal.html

And that one comes from some command-line using junkies, buiding up straw men and deconstructing them. Guess we should start saying "straw persons", in order to be truly equal about things.

[Orbit]

There's a donate button at the bottom of that page.

 

Interesting. I had never heard most of those statements being refuted. Also, she never said all sex or even all intercourse was rape. The allegation is "penetrative" sex. Similar to the Womyn's Music Festival regulations for many years, where no penetrative device, e.g. dildo, could be brought to the occasion.

 

I've never heard anyone say Ms. Dworkin claimed all sex, it was all penetrative sex.

 

If I said "Everything made by Packard Bell was a shoddy piece of workmanship," Then someone came along and put up a site dispelling Lies about Leo, and quoted me as saying, "Everything made by an Original Equipment Manufacturer is shoddy workmanship," that's technically a straw man, since that isn't at all what I was alleged to have said.

Technically, Packard Bell was an Original Equipment manufacturer, one out of many.

 

Maybe she didn't say "all penetrative sex is rape", and that a phallus automatically means power, a concept I still struggle to even comprehend.

 

In fact, this site seems to have as much credibility as the following does for technical credibility:

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ak621/DOS/DOS-Fal.html

And that one comes from some command-line using junkies, buiding up straw men and deconstructing them. Guess we should start saying "straw persons", in order to be truly equal about things.

Just trying to spread some facts. I could have told you the same thing, without hyperlinks, but you wouldn't have believed me --and my sources are actual texts, not web pages. For some reason this seems to be disadvantage where everyone wants links. Not all scholarship is online for free.

[Leo]

No, we appreciate you having posted that.

 

And, I'm aware of the paywall situation. hell, I've helped implement it from a dev standpoint. And well, the Wall Street Journal and others do it quite successfully, have a subscriber base, so why not academia? You wrote it, you oughta get paid for it: it's the free market, capitalism and all that.

 

The only reason so much technology info is available online for free is the money is made from yu or I buying the actual products. You can download the manual and technical specifications (not just the blurby on Amazon, the real deal) for most products online. Because it's the product, not the manual, that's for sale.

 

But if what you're talking about is mainly books, well, that's in part where your DMCA and related technologies come into play.

[Jutta]

Why is it that when someone writes "feminism", all of the nut-jobs come out of the woodwork ranting about false rape accusations? It just gets ugly real fast. Guys who feel disenfranchised come out of the woodwork and split hairs about how unfair it all is, etc.. Sorry, but I look around me, and come to the conclusion that MEN ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE ON THE WINNING SIDE. Look at history. Might makes right. What are you guys so bitter and afraid of?

I am essentially pushed into a low wage service job since I obviously can't lift large loads and get a better paying warehouse job. I am automatically the skank single mom and my ex is the heroic man who "fought for his custody rights". Most of my family treats me like a pariah, while he's a "Saint". I only won primary custody after a very expensive legal fight in a northeastern state. NO, men do not automatically lose all custody fights, so don't pull that card on me. 

My father favored his sons about 10x more than his daughters (for example, buying them cars, houses) while the girls were not so lucky. My mother was an at-home mom, and 50 years later is still under her husband's thumb.

I have to watch my back in every parking garage. Most of you guys probably don't. 

The hard core right wingers in my country (the US) essentially believe us women should PAY for the SINS OF EVE, and they keep getting re-elected to government. 

My personal experience says that the males on here have little to fear about losing the power they already have. Sorry.

My son is the life of my light. So, no, I don't hate men. Facts are facts, however. 

The few over privileged women you see-- who are they? Very beautiful, usually, and nine times out of ten, born into money. 

[ToHellWithMe]

Why is it that when someone writes "feminism", all of the nut-jobs come out of the woodwork ranting about false rape accusations?

So, how do you think rape accusations should be handled?

[Bhim]

 

Why is it that when someone writes "feminism", all of the nut-jobs come out of the woodwork ranting about false rape accusations?

So, how do you think rape accusations should be handled?

Well stated.

 

Jutta, thank you for joining the conversation. I agree that if there is to be any meaningful dialog, you need to address the question of false rape accusations. The entire premise of my argument here is that false criminal accusations are a weightier issue than women's rights. It's not that I don't care about gender equality, because I do. But the millions of American women in who are low-paying jobs are not in prison. The handful of men accused falsely of rape are, and that to me is almost infinitely worse. I would sooner legalize all crime than allow one person to be wrongly imprisoned for petty theft. If you like you can question my premise that false rape accusations trump all other issues, which is precisely what Zerlina Maxwell has done in her Washington Post op-ed that I cited earlier. But please address this issue before we discuss anything else. To table the discussion on false rape accusations so that we can discuss disrespect for women is akin to going out for groceries when your house is on fire.

[♦ ficino ♦]

The hard core right wingers in my country (the US) essentially believe us women should PAY for the SINS OF EVE, and they keep getting re-elected to government. 

 

Recent stats say that a huge part of the Republicans' support base is women who want religion to receive even more public privilege than it already has.  I read that evangelical women are even more likely to reject evolution than are evangelical men.  it's SO depressing.

[mymistake]

Why is it that when someone writes "feminism", all of the nut-jobs come out of the woodwork ranting about false rape accusations? It just gets ugly real fast. 

 

 

Jutta if you wouldn't start off calling people "nut-jobs" maybe the conversation would stay respectful.  I'm not the guy who did any of those things to you or thought any bad thoughts about you.  I'm not even on the same side as any of the guys who did that.  That my body is the same shape as theirs is only a coincidence.

 

I watch my back in every parking garage.  No exceptions.  Being male doesn't mean I want to be a victim.

 

You make a good point about the Republican party.  They are hanging on because of all the votes they get from the Quiver Full/ fundamentalist-home-school movement.  We still have work to do before we can eradicate that social sexism.  I hope it happens in our lifetime.  Things are changing.

 

 

My personal experience says that the males on here have little to fear about losing the power they already have.

 

Enlighten me.  What power do I have and what could I lose?  I don't know what you mean.

[Jutta]

In the greater scheme of things, and in my personal life and in the experiences of people I know, there have been more hidden rapes than false accusations of rape. Male prison inmates? Incest survivors? Prisoners of war? Why beat a dead horse? I for one, would not have reported a rape in college-- my parents would have suffocated me in the name of "safety" and I would have lost freedom and gained no justice. Justice often comes down to who has more money for the lawyer regardless.

 

If you're too blind to realize any upper-hand you might have over my gender, you must have serious mother issues... or major cobwebs of conservative christianity in your brains. There are so many self-hating evangelical brain-washed women out there, and the righteous men they are subservient to, that you have nothing to fear about losing any more rights you may have "lost" over the past five decades (here in the US). Before long, men will get full custody of their children, and decide whether their girlfriends have abortions or not, whether they can hire women with slave wages and no benefits, sue for damages due to "false rape accusations", rape with impunity, let alone define whether "rape" is "legitimate rape" or "she just had it coming to her!"-- just like they did in my grandmother's day. Maybe I'm going to an extreme, but history repeats itself. Women get rights, then lose them. Do I have to spell it out? Or are you looking for an opportunity to insult my intelligence, exploit my fragile female sanity, or "prove" how naturally inferior I am to satisfy yourselves? 

 

Immediately a group of male posters come on here with their witch-hunting torches blazing as soon as a woman writes the word "feminism" on these boards-- demanding exacting answers on things that are so obvious that they are not worth discussing.

 

Not all men I am accusing here, but those who know who they are, know who they are. 

[Jutta]

*** and furthermore... notice how many women are this page (#8) are defending themselves***