Trust Yourself

[Jeff]

 

IH: Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

 

...

 

The Great Flood: God making choices for us.

I agree with what you say about the choices being ours.

 

I don't understand what you mean by the flood is God making choices for us.

IH... Please. omg

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

This is my reply to BAA's post #135

 

See?

God prepared some people in advance for destruction and some people in advance for glory.  But with God 2.0 and Creation 2.0 nobody is prepared in advance for either destruction or suffering.  God 2.0 has the same powers as God 1.0, but His Creation 2.0 is superior to Creation 1.0 because there is no evil, no sin, no death and no suffering.

Think some more about it.

 

 

I have thought about it.

 

What Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans does not contradict the “whosoever believeth” in John’s Gospel. No other verse in the Bible does.

 

Now, I admit on a first reading a person might think this is what Paul is saying, but it is not.

We must very careful in reading and understanding Paul’s letters. Also with other scriptures. This is why I 

talked how to read the scriptures for better understanding in post #139

 

Why? Because Peter warned us!

 

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

~ Peter 3:16

 

This statement by Peter still rings true. All this “heath and wealth”

and “speaking in tongues” stuff we see today comes from a misreading of Paul because of failure to study  or deliberate deception.

 

 

The following is the best explanation on Romans 9 I have found.

 

http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-respond-to-romans-9/

 

Ironhorse,

 

How can a person who never exists outside of God's mind have their free will violated?

 

Romans 9 deals with God creating people and then sparing or destroying them, based upon their choices.

 

But that doesn't apply to people who never achieve any kind of existence.

 

God can foreknow the choices they would have made and still choose to keep them un-created.

 

Please address this.

 

BAA

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

How can a person who never exists outside of God's mind have their free will violated?

 

They can't. 

 

Romans 9 deals with God creating people and then sparing or destroying them, based upon their choices.

 

I agree. It also deals with Paul’s anguish over Israel.

 

But that doesn't apply to people who never achieve any kind of existence.

 

I agree.

 

God can foreknow the choices they would have made and still choose to keep them un-created.

 

How can God foreknow the choices of imaginary people? 

 

Everyone who exists or existed was a thought in God's eternal mind until he created them.   Everyone.   There is no difference between imaginary and real in God's mind.  People only become real when God creates them.  

 

God not only foreknows every actual free choice of every person that he chooses to create but also the potential free choices of every potential person who he chooses not to create. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

 

Please address this.

 

BAA

 

 

I just did and I was humming the John Lennon song "Mind Games" as I keyed along my merry way. 

 

[ironhorse]

Does God Know Everything Before it Happens?

By James L. Morrisson

 

The Bible tells us that God is omniscient. He knows everything. He knows many things before they happen. The Bible speaks of many things as being predestined or foreordained - large words that mean that God planned them and knew of them before they happened.

It also tells us that man has free choice, free will, and will be held accountable for the choices he makes. This implies that not everything is foreordained and that how man chooses makes a difference.

Theologians have struggled for centuries to try to find a comprehensive formula fitting these two principles together. I hesitate to deal with such matters, but perhaps a simple and nontraditional approach may have something in it that is useful.

Contiune…

 

http://www.scriptureinsights.com/Foreknow.html

[♦ ficino ♦]

[The Bible] also tells us that man has free choice, free will

The above part of James L. Morrison's statement is incorrect. The Bible never says that humans have "free will." It only represents them as making choices. It also represents their choices as ordained by God. So, fail.

[florduh]

Free will is nothing more than the ability to make limited choices within existing parameters.

 

Now let's throw into the mix the God character as generally described in the Bible. The choice with him is either obey or be punished. According to the most current and prevalent Christian doctrines, the ultimate reward for obedience (assuming you understand what he really wants) is absurdly terrific to the point it can't even be adequately described, but the ultimate punishment is likened to an eternal agony of consciously burning.

 

These are choices? Of course! We can freely choose to spend eternity in Hell! Hooray for free will!

[ironhorse]

 

[The Bible] also tells us that man has free choice, free will

The above part of James L. Morrison's statement is incorrect. The Bible never says that humans have "free will." It only represents them as making choices. It also represents their choices as ordained by God. So, fail.

 

 

 

I respectfully disagree. Morrison's essay is long but it is worth reading all of it. He does, I think, deals with this topic carefully.

Also, it would help in my understanding your view if you would explain further or post examples from scripture as to what you mean by their choices as ordained by God.

 

 

This is part of several conclusions he presents:

 

E. CONCLUSION

 

"This is a large subject. Much more could be said about it. But I think we can see some things fairly clearly.

First, this is an area which we cannot expect to understand fully. We do not have all the answers. Scripture tells us quite a bit, but our knowledge and understanding of it will always be imperfect and incomplete."

 

 

You are correct in saying the Bible never says we have free will. The word "free will" is indeed

never mentioned but I think the scriptures do teach the concept. 

 

Scripture portrays humans as having minds and wills of their own. They are, in a real (as humanly possible) sense, creators of their own behavior and determiners of their own destinies—whether this behavior and destiny is in line with God’s will or not. This fundamental assumption is demonstrated in a variety of ways throughout Scripture.

 

I think this is clearly expressed in Deuteronomy:

 

"Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live."

~ Deut. 30:11–19

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

When did God decide that he hated Esau?  Was it...

 

 

A.  At the moment Esau decided to sell his birthright?

 

B.  Before either Jacob or Esau were born?

 

C.  Before creation.

 

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

[The Bible] also tells us that man has free choice, free will

The above part of James L. Morrison's statement is incorrect. The Bible never says that humans have "free will." It only represents them as making choices. It also represents their choices as ordained by God. So, fail.

 

 

 

I respectfully disagree. Morrison's essay is long but it is worth reading all of it. He does, I think, deals with this topic carefully.

Also, it would help in my understanding your view if you would explain further or post examples from scripture as to what you mean by their choices as ordained by God.

 

 

This is part of several conclusions he presents:

 

E. CONCLUSION

 

"This is a large subject. Much more could be said about it. But I think we can see some things fairly clearly.

First, this is an area which we cannot expect to understand fully. We do not have all the answers. Scripture tells us quite a bit, but our knowledge and understanding of it will always be imperfect and incomplete."

 

 

You are correct in saying the Bible never says we have free will. The word "free will" is indeed

never mentioned but I think the scriptures do teach the concept. 

 

Scripture portrays humans as having minds and wills of their own. They are, in a real (as humanly possible) sense, creators of their own behavior and determiners of their own destinies—whether this behavior and destiny is in line with God’s will or not. This fundamental assumption is demonstrated in a variety of ways throughout Scripture.

 

I think this is clearly expressed in Deuteronomy:

 

"Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live."

~ Deut. 30:11–19

 

 

There can be no direct comparison made between the choice God offered the tribes of Israel and the choice He offered to Adam and Eve.

 

The Israelites knew the difference between good and evil and could recognize and understand these things.  Adam and Eve could not. 

 

So, even if it can be argued that God was giving the twelve tribes a free choice, He gave no such option to the first two humans.

 

No amount of free choices offered after Eden can undo what God did there.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Scripture portrays humans as having minds and wills of their own. They are, in a real (as humanly possible) sense, creators of their own behavior and determiners of their own destinies—whether this behavior and destiny is in line with God’s will or not. This fundamental assumption is demonstrated in a variety of ways throughout Scripture.

 

I think this is clearly expressed in Deuteronomy:

 

"Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live."

~ Deut. 30:11–19

Now we're getting into the Bible's internal clashes. Deuteronomy says it is not too hard for the Israelites to keep God's commandments. But other parts of scripture, as you know, teach that each human post-Adam/Eve is dead in sin and CANNOT keep God's commandments.

 

Obviously, "not too hard for you" does not equal "that which you CAN do," but it's pretty close.

 

Anyway, granting that the unregenerate man CANNOT keep even commandments that are "not too hard," the only hope is that God will give that person the power to repent and be born again. No one can choose God. God must first extend grace so that the person's inner nature is changed.

 

And God decides to grant grace to some and withhold it from others. God decides this before He creates the world.

 

In the biblical picture, free will is a mirage.

 

The work that the 'free will' clause does for Christian theology is to justify the claim that humans are responsible for the way God treats them. Christians can't allow that a creature's decisions are not predestined by God, i.e. that God is not the first cause of every event. But Christians need to justify God's punishments. So in the Christian system, the "free will" concept acts as a premise in the argument that God is just when he punishes creatures. It helps make the claim that the creature is responsible, so thus, can justly be punished. The free will clause does not act as a premise in an argument that God is not the first cause of every event.

 

So you still have God deciding on and setting into motion a chain of causes that ends in Joe Schmo, helpless in sin, getting no grace and then going to hell. God decides to start this chain. It's smoke and mirrors to try to say that God does all this stuff, is all-powerful, and yet somehow doesn't will the outcome of the chain of causes that He causes.

 

At this point, lots of people will say that Christian theology is a mess. The Christian, like Ironhorse and Morrison, inevitably falls back on the announcement that there are mysteries we cannot fathom. But they'll keep on insisting that their system is totes the Truth. Millions of them go on to say that their system, a contradictory mess but totes The Truth, gives them the right to control the rest of us. If we say the system is a crock, we're going to hell etc. etc., and in this life, we get branded as evil atheists.  [i don't claim that you, IH, insist on controlling the rest of us, but a big chunk of evangelicalism and Catholicism demands that its customs be normative for everyone.]

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

When did God decide that he hated Esau?  Was it...

 

 

A.  At the moment Esau decided to sell his birthright?

 

B.  Before either Jacob or Esau were born?

 

C.  Before creation.

 

(Bump!)

[ironhorse]

 

Ironhorse,

 

When did God decide that he hated Esau?  Was it...

 

 

A.  At the moment Esau decided to sell his birthright?

 

B.  Before either Jacob or Esau were born?

 

C.  Before creation.

 

(Bump!)

 

 

 

I cannot answer that question, only God knows the answer.

 

 

I do know our English definition of "hate" being used is not the meaning stated in this passage of scripture.  The  Hebrew word is : “sane” (“saw-nay”). This word does not mean the idea of hatred as in to despise or detest but instead means “preferred over”

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

When did God decide that he hated Esau?  Was it...

 

 

A.  At the moment Esau decided to sell his birthright?

 

B.  Before either Jacob or Esau were born?

 

C.  Before creation.

 

(Bump!)

 

 

 

I cannot answer that question, only God knows the answer.

 

False.  

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie,

    not a human being, that he should change his mind.

 

 

Therefore God always hated Esau.  From before creation.  For eternity.  

 

Esau was a object of destruction created only by God to show God's glory in the world and then be incinerated in the fire.

 

Which is exactly what the apostle Paul said and meant.

 

 

I do know our English definition of "hate" being used is not the meaning stated in this passage of scripture.  The  Hebrew word is : “sane” (“saw-nay”). This word does not mean the idea of hatred as in to despise or detest but instead means “preferred over”

 

 

That changes nothing.

 

Jacob was preferred over Esau by God... eternally.

 

Meaning that Esau was still created as an object of God's wrath. 

[Guest Furball]

It couldn't have been before creation since time didn't exist, which is a question I never heard a christian answer. If god, who dwells in eternity where there is no past or future or even time since in eternity it is always "now," how could god makes plans/decisions for the future of earth/easu/humans since to make plans would require time to exist, when in eternity it doesn't exist?

[Jeff]

IH are you learning and retaining anything?

Do you alter your opinion or just keep going like nothing happened.

[midniterider]

 

IH: Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

 

...

 

The Great Flood: God making choices for us.

 

I agree with what you say about the choices being ours.

 

I don't understand what you mean by the flood is God making choices for us.

 

 

God violated the free will of 99.9% of the people on earth when he drowned them. I dont think those people all wanted God to drown them.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

IH: Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

 

...

 

The Great Flood: God making choices for us.

 

I agree with what you say about the choices being ours.

 

I don't understand what you mean by the flood is God making choices for us.

 

 

God violated the free will of 99.9% of the people on earth when he drowned them. I dont think those people all wanted God to drown them.

 

 

Their free will meant nothing to God, rider.

 

That's because, just like He preferred Jacob over Esau before creation, so he preferred the eight (8) people that were saved in the Ark over the millions He drowned.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

IH: Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

 

...

 

The Great Flood: God making choices for us.

 

I agree with what you say about the choices being ours.

 

I don't understand what you mean by the flood is God making choices for us.

 

 

God violated the free will of 99.9% of the people on earth when he drowned them. I dont think those people all wanted God to drown them.

 

 

Their free will meant nothing to God, rider.

 

That's because, just like He preferred Jacob over Esau before creation, so he preferred the eight (8) people that were saved in the Ark over the millions He drowned.

 

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons"  Acts 10:34

 

"For there is no respect of persons with God."  Romans 2:11

 

The bible is clear in stating that god does not show favoritism or partiality.  The bible is also clear in stating that god does show favoritism and partiality.

 

Care to clear up this contradiction, TinPony?

[Thought2Much]

Care to clear up this contradiction, TinPony?

 

 

"It's a mystery."

[TheRedneckProfessor]

lol

[bornagainathiest]

Maybe Ironhorse would care to comment on what Jesus had to say about whose will is sovereign when it comes to salvation?

 

John 6 :  44

 

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

So the initiator of salvation is whom?

 

The person whom the Father draws to Jesus?

 

The Father who draws the person to Jesus?

[ironhorse]

Maybe Ironhorse would care to comment on what Jesus had to say about whose will is sovereign when it comes to salvation?

 

John 6 :  44

 

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

So the initiator of salvation is whom?

 

The person whom the Father draws to Jesus?

 

The Father who draws the person to Jesus?

 

 

 

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

~ John 12:32

 

All people are drawn but not all accept the invitation. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Maybe Ironhorse would care to comment on what Jesus had to say about whose will is sovereign when it comes to salvation?

 

John 6 :  44

 

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

So the initiator of salvation is whom?

 

The person whom the Father draws to Jesus?

 

The Father who draws the person to Jesus?

 

 

 

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

~ John 12:32

 

All people are drawn but not all accept the invitation. 

 

 

Please answer the three questions, Ironhorse.

 

Here they are again for your convenience.

 

So the initiator of salvation is whom?

 

The person whom the Father draws to Jesus?

 

The Father who draws the person to Jesus?

[Jeff]

This is called cherry picking IH.

 

It's when you ignore the verse you don't like and replace with the verse you do like.

 

Since there are so many verses available to give one either side of an argument, when you ignore the one you don't like and merely post the one you do like, like you did above, you are cherry picking.

 

We are not hypocrites to chose a verse we like because we beleive neither verse to be holy or correct. However you base your life on these things and beleive the bible to be true, so I dub thee master Cherry Picker.

Deal with it

[bornagainathiest]

This is called cherry picking IH.

 

It's when you ignore the verse you don't like and replace with the verse you do like.

 

Since there are so many verses available to give one either side of an argument, when you ignore the one you don't like and merely post the one you do like you did above, you are cherry picking.

 

We are not hypocrites to chose a verse we like because we beleive neither verse to be holy or correct. However you base your life on these things and beleive the bible so I dub thee master Cherry Picker.

Deal with it

 

Some Christians turn unpalatable and bitter-tasting scripture into a sweet confection by cherry-picking and sugar-coating it.

[ironhorse]

Please answer the three questions, Ironhorse.

Here they are again for your convenience.
So the initiator of salvation is whom?
The person whom the Father draws to Jesus?
The Father who draws the person to Jesus?

 

~ BAA

 

I’m unsure if you are asking three questions or if the first one is the question and the following two are my choices.

Can you clarify? 

Thank you

 

 

 

This is called cherry picking IH.

It's when you ignore the verse you don't like and replace with the verse you do like.

Since there are so many verses available to give one either side of an argument, when you ignore the one you don't like and merely post the one you do like, like you did above, you are cherry picking.

We are not hypocrites to chose a verse we like because we beleive neither verse to be holy or correct. However you base your life on these things and beleive the bible to be true, so I dub thee master Cherry Picker.

Deal with it

~ Jeff

 

 

I agree there are many verses a person or groups can pick to propose a belief or practice. They do so without reading in context or by not confirming it with other similar scripture concerning the subject.

For example Charismatics and Pentecostals teach that the gift of tongues, signs and wonders are still in use by the church. They claim this strengthens and edifies the church. They quote scripture to support this view.
They do not read all the scripture concerning this subject. 

 

Examples:

The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

Also in these verse it states these gifts were given to the apostles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Also, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8)

 

Concerning the two recent scripture quotes in this thread:

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
~John 6 : 44

 

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

~ John 12:32

 

I do not view this as cherry picking. 
It was just confirming that the scriptures teach that Christ calls all people. The two verses complement each other.