The Simplicity Of The Christian Message

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 12/10/2017 at 5:31 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But if "once saved, always saved" is really what you believe, then our "misrepresentations" shouldn't matter to you, or anybody else.  Because we, and the lurkers, and the guests, and you, are all still saved, whether we have rightly divined the message or not.  And if we are still saved, then we have no need for your "different approach to the scriptures and christ."  

 

Which brings me back to my question, why do you feel compelled to bear witness?

@ironhorse

[ironhorse]

13 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@ironhorse

 

 

Because the good news is to be told and shared with others. One beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

There are many verses in the scriptures calling on believers to witness to others.

Mark 16, “Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel.”

And in 1 Peter “and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you.”

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Why would one beggar need to show the other where to find bread if they both already had bread?  "Once you have bread, you will always have bread" is your analogy's equivalent of "once saved, always saved".

 

We are neither beggars nor sinners here.  Again I am compelled to ask, why do you feel the need to share the gospel with those who do not need it?

 

@ironhorse

[realityrunt]

4 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

Because the good news is to be told and shared with others. One beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

There are many verses in the scriptures calling on believers to witness to others.

Mark 16, “Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel.”

And in 1 Peter “and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you.”

 

That's if it's your gifting ironhorse, is it your gifting?

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

Because the good news is to be told and shared with others. One beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

There are many verses in the scriptures calling on believers to witness to others.

Mark 16, “Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel.”

And in 1 Peter “and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you.”

 

 

I think when you put Mark 16:15 into its proper context with its surrounding scripture you can see that Jesus is only telling the 11disciples to go into all the world and spread the gospel. I mean look at Mark 16:17, just two verses further,  where it talks about speaking in tongues. As a Baptist believer you've told us that speaking in tongues was nixed at the end of the Apostolic Age.  Therefore Jesus was just talking to his 11.

 

Mark 16:20 confirms that the disciples went out and did as ordered. Done deal. No recruiting is needed by anyone today.

[duderonomy]

4 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I think when you put Mark 16:15 into its proper context with its surrounding scripture you can see that Jesus is only telling the 11disciples to go into all the world and spread the gospel. I mean look at Mark 16:17, just two verses further,  where it talks about speaking in tongues. As a Baptist believer you've told us that speaking in tongues was nixed at the end of the Apostolic Age.  Therefore Jesus was just talking to his 11.

 

Mark 16:20 confirms that the disciples went out and did as ordered. Done deal. No recruiting is needed by anyone today.

 

Hmmm...let me predict a couple of responses from our Baptist friend...

 

1) Mark 16 is generally agreed to as having been added to the text later, however the rest of the Bible which proves that the gifts have ceased now that the Bible is complete and perfect, including Mark 16 which claims that "these things shall follow them that believe" and not just the Apostles,  has been delivered to us by a council of the Catholic Church which is wrong about damn near everything. Or something. Here's a quote by an author of a book...

 

2) We know from other chapters and verses in other books of the Bible that the verses you bring up don't mean what you think they mean, because you have to use the Bible to interpret the Bible along with teachers and authors that I agree with.

 

3) Look! A squirrel!

 

4) Even the Bible says that the Bible was written by fallen sinful men whose hearts are deceitfully wicked, and the extant texts don't agree, and there are many contradictions that have never been explained and  it shows how through the ages God has changed even though He never changes and Jesus, who is God, will eventually throw death and Hell into a lake of fire and it's smoke will ascend forever but there is no eternal Hell! and if you don't believe all of this, you are among men the most foolish.

 

5) Bob Dylan sang that you have to serve somebody. It may be the Devil, or it may be the Lord but you have to serve somebody, and Bono did that one song about when love came to town.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

12 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

3) Look! A squirrel!

 

I'm pretty sure that's a red herring fallacy

[Astreja]

14 hours ago, ironhorse said:

Because the good news is to be told and shared with others.

 

There's only one problem:  It isn't good news.  Essentially Christianity is institutionalized Stockholm Syndrome that tells us that we're both worthless and at the mercy of a super-powered being that considers eternal torture to be justice.

 

Christianity is evil.  For every one life it saves it destroys a hundred others.  It has stolen our birthright -- Our self-esteem and personal responsibility -- and is holding it hostage until we grovel before a wrathful cosmic maniac and agree to let a proxy "perfect" sacrifice take the fall for us.

 

If I had the power I would wipe that vile belief out of human history and out of the minds of humanity without a moment's hesitation and without a moment's regret.

[realityrunt]

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

11 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

Hmmm...let me predict a couple of responses from our Baptist friend...

 

 

 

Bwa ha ha! You nailed it.

I think your 1), 2) and 4) would apply also to Thumbelina if she should ever come back here.

[realityrunt]

13 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

There's only one problem:  It isn't good news.  Essentially Christianity is institutionalized Stockholm Syndrome that tells us that we're both worthless and at the mercy of a super-powered being that considers eternal torture to be justice.

 

Christianity is evil.  For every one life it saves it destroys a hundred others.  It has stolen our birthright -- Our self-esteem and personal responsibility -- and is holding it hostage until we grovel before a wrathful cosmic maniac and agree to let a proxy "perfect" sacrifice take the fall for us.

 

If I had the power I would wipe that vile belief out of human history and out of the minds of humanity without a moment's hesitation and without a moment's regret.

It's good new for those who end up in heaven, but bad news for those who are left behind.

 

The destruction of the human race is not good news at all. If they only left out the book of Revelations, thing's might have worked out different.

[LogicalFallacy]

42 minutes ago, realityrunt said:

The destruction of the human race is not good news at all. If they only left out the book of Revelations, thing's might have worked out different.

 

And all the bits about Jesus talking about burning in hellfire, and Pauls musings on the fallen nature of man... and the bits about God periodically wiping stuff out.

 

But by the time you've done that the Bible is only a few chapters long filled with good wisdom... that can be found in nearly every culture, making the book not very special.

[realityrunt]

12 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

And all the bits about Jesus talking about burning in hellfire, and Pauls musings on the fallen nature of man... and the bits about God periodically wiping stuff out.

 

But by the time you've done that the Bible is only a few chapters long filled with good wisdom... that can be found in nearly every culture, making the book not very special.

I honestly think that if they let the book of Revelations slide, Christianity wouldn't be absorbed by end times scenarios. I think that it it self would make a big difference.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

Some newer members may be wondering, who is BAA and what is all of this referencing of BAA? 

 

You can read through this thread and others and see who BAA was and what he did. Sadly, we were informed that he passed away. Ironhorse is also deceased. But these debates do live on in the archives around here. He was committed to keeping christians feet to the fire. 

 

It may do people some good to look back over past discussions like this one. Notice how BAA held Ironhorse's feet to the fire about Genesis?

 

If Genesis is not literally true, then neither is original sin or the plan of salvation for that matter. That's why careful apologist's have to try and avoid admitting that Genesis 1 is not 100% literally true. Ironhorse wasn't being careful and fell into the trap. 

 

Happy reading!

[alreadyGone]

I'll say again...

 

Genesis 1:1 and realizing the myth of original sin was for me the key to untangling a lifetime of christian programming... much of which I did to myself.

 

And I'll repeat..  who was there to chronicle the events described in the bible in Gensis?

 

In a (supposed) time long before even Phoenician cuneiform, when even the act of scribbling icons-as-language onto sheepskin or papyrus was still a future technology, who was there to witness those supposed events in order to report them?

 

A tale so incredible, credited to Moses under direct inspiration from God, if told today would get the teller locked up for medical evaluation.

And yet a planet full of humans accepts it without even a question or a second look.

 

Was there a Moses?

Did he know or understand anything more than 'bang two rocks together, make fire' ?

 

That illustrates all too well how the human mind begs, demands a "higher power", and then sets out to construct one tailored to suit their own beliefs, preconceptions, and prejudices.

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

Because why?  Why the human compulsion to invent deities?

Because the universe is a scary place, and we all know we're gonna croak at some point?

 

Reminds me of ...

“If I went ’round sayin’ I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away!” – Dennis

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

That illustrates all too well how the human mind begs, demands a "higher power", and then sets out to construct one tailored to suit their own beliefs, preconceptions, and prejudices.

 

That's just it! 

 

You're exactly right. It can be so difficult for people to see it for what's demonstrable. When I look at the bible, I see very clearly the human bias, beliefs, preconceptions, and prejudices. This isn't any different than reading through a contemporary opinion piece full of transparent biases as you read through. The bible IS a type of heavily biased opinion piece. 

 

Poor old ironhorse couldn't ever manage to see it for what's apparent. He died taking these beliefs to the grave as far as I know. Spending his final years, as it were, posting on an ex christian website trying to convince us that the bible is true. To no avail. I can see that the old guy meant well. He seemed to believe he was doing the right thing. 

 

And maybe he was, actually. 

 

But doing the right thing had more to do with demonstrating to others what poorly framed arguments and claims will get you. Doing the right thing by showing others how false and frail christianity actually is. Despite the well intended people who seek to promote it. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

One thing I will say about Ironhorse, though, is that once his bullshit was called, once the tough questions were asked, he'd usually fall back on the only honest answer possible.  He'd say he didn't know, he just believed, just had faith.  It made him a terrible apologist; but his honesty was refreshing in a world of pittsburgjoes and braggadocios.

[WalterP]

19 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

One thing I will say about Ironhorse, though, is that once his bullshit was called, once the tough questions were asked, he'd usually fall back on the only honest answer possible.  He'd say he didn't know, he just believed, just had faith.  It made him a terrible apologist; but his honesty was refreshing in a world of pittsburgjoes and braggadocios.

 

I never got to meet either BAA or Ironhorse, but the RedneckProfessor's comments have just made me wonder about the following point.

 

Which is the more highly prized quality among Christians - faith or honesty (truthfulness)?

 

Ok, this is a loaded question, because the issue is more complex than this simple dichotomy.

 

But, in my experience some Christians fixate on faith so much that it erodes their honesty.

 

When asked a question that challenges their faith, they do the dishonest thing and deflect, evade or refuse to answer.

 

In their own eyes this leaves their faith intact, but at what cost to their honesty and truthfulness?

 

Is it really worth holding on to your faith if doing so causes you to become dishonest and untruthful?

 

Surely it's a hollow victory if you win the battle of a particular thread, but lose the moral war and become a liar?

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

1 hour ago, WalterP said:

 

...Which is the more highly prized quality among Christians - faith or honesty (truthfulness)?

...

But, in my experience some Christians fixate on faith so much that it erodes their honesty.

...

When asked a question that challenges their faith, they do the dishonest thing and deflect, evade or refuse to answer.

...

 

Well said, Walter.

 

People see what they believe.

Surely this is one of the most fundamental and difficult natural struggles of man extending back to the earliest days of humanity.

 

I don't pretend to be entirely free of this myself.

But the difference does matter to me.

I value and try to cultivate the habit of being as honest with myself as my natural human limitations will enable me.

 

I don't pretend to be an honest person with regard to others.

I want to be, but of course I fail every day.

 

I'll never understand though how anyone expects truth and honesty from others, or indeed how they expect the world to make any rational sense  if they take no care about their own internal honesty with themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 3/11/2021 at 4:09 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

One thing I will say about Ironhorse, though, is that once his bullshit was called, once the tough questions were asked, he'd usually fall back on the only honest answer possible.  He'd say he didn't know, he just believed, just had faith.  It made him a terrible apologist; but his honesty was refreshing in a world of pittsburgjoes and braggadocios.

 

For sure. That's the honest take away. A christian doesn't know, but believes anyways. He would admit it when cornered and these other guys refuse to face reality. 

[Joshpantera]

5 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

I never got to meet either BAA or Ironhorse, but the RedneckProfessor's comments have just made me wonder about the following point.

 

Which is the more highly prized quality among Christians - faith or honesty (truthfulness)?

 

Ok, this is a loaded question, because the issue is more complex than this simple dichotomy.

 

But, in my experience some Christians fixate on faith so much that it erodes their honesty.

 

When asked a question that challenges their faith, they do the dishonest thing and deflect, evade or refuse to answer.

 

In their own eyes this leaves their faith intact, but at what cost to their honesty and truthfulness?

 

Is it really worth holding on to your faith if doing so causes you to become dishonest and untruthful?

 

Surely it's a hollow victory if you win the battle of a particular thread, but lose the moral war and become a liar?

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

Here's what's more, christians who do this and choose dishonesty over faith are in a pickle.

 

If they are correct, and there WILL be a final judgement, doesn't that mean that they are risking standing before an almighty god trying to explain why they resorted to dishonesty, lies? Does the god of everything need them to lie on his behalf? 

 

I'd kick'em in the ass on this point. 

 

1) Remain honest and honestly admit innocent doubt and stand before a god in judgement?  

 

2) Or lie and take up dishonesty and stand in judgement before a god from that platform? 

 

I wonder which they would think makes the most sense, and why? 

[WalterP]

12 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Here's what's more, christians who do this and choose dishonesty over faith are in a pickle.

 

If they are correct, and there WILL be a final judgement, doesn't that mean that they are risking standing before an almighty god trying to explain why they resorted to dishonesty, lies? Does the god of everything need them to lie on his behalf? 

 

I'd kick'em in the ass on this point. 

 

1) Remain honest and honestly admit innocent doubt and stand before a god in judgement?  

 

2) Or lie and take up dishonesty and stand in judgement before a god from that platform? 

 

I wonder which they would think makes the most sense, and why? 

 

Ah, but no, Josh!

 

 

Lies will get you judged, but if you have faith in Jesus, sins like lying will be forgiven.

 

So, its way better to lie by the mile than to yield one inch of faith.

 

If your faith fails you lose everything, but if you lie, then Jesus will intercede for you.

 

 

Can you see what kind of Christians this thinking generates?

 

Liars for Jesus.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[Robert_Tulip]

On 12/20/2017 at 1:00 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But if "once saved, always saved" is really what you believe, then our "misrepresentations" shouldn't matter to you, or anybody else. 

This line from the top of the page shows how morally putrid conventional Christian faith really is.  The idea is that we are "saved", ie we will go to heaven for ever after death, if we believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins.  That is an unbiblical attitude, grounded in the depraved moral morass of hoping that unrepentant evil can be forgiven.  The story of the baptism of Christ tells us that forgiveness is entirely conditional on repentance, which means being sorry for doing wrong, understanding why and how it was wrong, and committing to reform your conduct.  But the 'have faith in Jesus' line implied by 'once saved, always saved' enables the dangerous view that you can continue to sin and be forgiven for it.

 

Australia recently held a major judicial commission into church sexual abuse.  A study of the commission findings revealed that a main enabler of the abuse of children by clergy is the toxic theology of 'penal substitutionary atonement'.  The practical psychology of this mentality for predators in the church is the obnoxious unstated emotional belief that "Jesus suffered in my place, so continued child rape is just fine, because I believe that Jesus is my lightning rod."  The further effect is that perpetrators insist on unwavering obedience, which enables them to control their victim, and even means the victim is not believed.

 

Christianity can only hope to survive if it junks this toxic theology of belief alone.

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, WalterP said:

Can you see what kind of Christians this thinking generates?

 

Liars for Jesus.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Indeed, liars for the Lord!