The Simplicity Of The Christian Message

[bornagainathiest]

Salvation from what, Ironhorse?

 

Do tell.

 

~ BAA

 

 

saved from perishing

 

What three letter word, found many times in the Bible, causes us to perish, Ironhorse?

.

.

.

Hint :  Adam and Eve did it first, here...

 

Genesis 3 : 6 & 7

 

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 

7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

[bornagainathiest]

Copies of the above three posts have just be PMed directly to Ironhorse's inbox.

 

Unless he has me on ignore or treats my messages as spam, he will be aware that I've just PMed him.

 

I patiently await his replies here.

[LogicalFallacy]

Ironhorse, when you say perish, do you mean bodily perish or spiritually perish?

 

Incidentally, for a Christian you have your wires crossed. Perish is what happens IF a person does not repent and be saved from [insert three letter word].

[Thumbelina]

 

This is the wonder of simplicity of the Christian message….the good news of the Gospel. It’s free! I can’t do a thing to earn it.

 

Demanding blind faith does not make it "free".

 

"Hey, want a new car?"

"I don't think I can afford one."

"Oh, but it's free and already paid for!"

"Oh, cool! So no catch?"

"Well... you need to get down on your knees and do as I say, but besides that, it's totally free!"

 

 

 

 

"Hey, you truly want a new car that won't crash or hurt others as long as you are truly willing to follow the driver's manual? It's easy to use as long as you follow the builder's instructions, but decrepit minds won't understand the instructions unless they willingly pledge to let the builder instruct their minds to rightly operate it (1 Timothy 1:8). It's worth 100 Trillion dollars"

"I don't think I can afford one"

"Oh, but it's free and already paid for!"

"Oh, cool! So no catch?"

"No, no catch; your hoopty ain't takin' you nowhere. If you admit that & desire a real prized vehicle (Isaiah 65:24) then it's yours for the taking. (1 John 1:9)"

 

 

.....................

 

If a policeman pardons you from breaking the law & you were facing having your license revoked, would you willingly go back to breaking the law again?

If you're impertinent & arrogantly tell the officer "I want to be pardoned & I have no intention of keeping the speed limit or obeying seat belt rules or stopping at traffic lights & stop signs or keeping any other stinking driving rule there is!" Should the officer still pardon you?

 

The wages of sin is death. To die all a created being has to do is sin one time. We can't pay the wage for eternal life; only someone who never ever sin can & did.

Some people are under the mistaken impression that Jesus' death automatically pardons everybody. No. His death made the provision to pardon everybody but a God of love is a God of choice & He will never want someone to worship & love Him against their will. Therefore, not everybody will choose to be saved. So, salvation is free but believing is a choice.

[Thumbelina]

"... when you say perish, do you mean bodily perish or spiritually perish?

Perish is what happens IF a person does not repent and be saved from [insert three letter word]."

 

^

Most (believer or not) did & will bodily perish but believers will not be destroyed bodily & spiritually (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 10:28).

The human race is on probation. As soon as we're born we're terminal; we are mortal, we die. Only God can rescue the perishing.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Thumbelina, on 24 Oct 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

Thumbelina: John 3:16 sums up the whole bible. It. Is. Simple. God means it, man!

 

Thumbelina,

 

In this thread I've repeatedly asked Ironhorse to tell us what it is that Jesus is giving us salvation from.

 

So far, even though he has been receiving and reading my polite requests, he hasn't seen fit to respond.

 

Therefore, since you're back and posting, I'll ask you.

 

John 3 : 16

 

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

Please tell us what it is that would cause anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus to perish and not have eternal life.

 

(I'm hoping that you won't go strangely quiet on this, just like Ironhorse.  It's almost as if this is a question he desperately doesn't want to answer.)

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Now that you're posting in this thread again Thumbelina, please be so good as to answer the question I put to you five days ago.

 

What is the three letter word that causes us to perish?

 

I'll provide you with three spaces into which you can insert the answer.

 

Thumbelina, please type your one-word, three-letter answer here...  _  _  _

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[LogicalFallacy]

"... when you say perish, do you mean bodily perish or spiritually perish?

Perish is what happens IF a person does not repent and be saved from [insert three letter word]."

 

^

Most (believer or not) did & will bodily perish but believers will not be destroyed bodily & spiritually (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 10:28).

The human race is on probation. As soon as we're born we're terminal; we are mortal, we die. Only God can rescue the perishing.

Hi Thumbelina

 

Thanks for answering on behalf of IH.

 

Please answer BAA's question above then we can continue the conversation - the answer you will give BAA will of course tie nicely into this post, from which either BAA or myself can continue the line of questioning (Assuming I know where BAA is going with this, as assuming its in the direction I'd intend to head.)

[bornagainathiest]

"Perish is what happens IF a person does not repent and be saved from [insert three letter word]."

 

^

The human race is on probation. As soon as we're born we're terminal; we are mortal, we die. Only God can rescue the perishing.

 

Why are we perishing, Thumbelina?

 

Ironhorse seems to be having trouble writing the three-letter word that is the reason why we're perishing.

 

Is it anything to do with this?

 

"The wages of sin is death. To die all a created being has to do is sin one time. We can't pay the wage for eternal life; only someone who never ever sin can & did."

[bornagainathiest]

 

"... when you say perish, do you mean bodily perish or spiritually perish?

Perish is what happens IF a person does not repent and be saved from [insert three letter word]."

 

^

Most (believer or not) did & will bodily perish but believers will not be destroyed bodily & spiritually (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 10:28).

The human race is on probation. As soon as we're born we're terminal; we are mortal, we die. Only God can rescue the perishing.

Hi Thumbelina

 

Thanks for answering on behalf of IH.

 

Please answer BAA's question above then we can continue the conversation - the answer you will give BAA will of course tie nicely into this post, from which either BAA or myself can continue the line of questioning (Assuming I know where BAA is going with this, as assuming its in the direction I'd intend to head.)

 

 

Where am I going, LF?

 

Well, since this thread is all about simplicity, the answer to your question is simple enough.

 

Once Ironhorse gives the one-word, three-letter answer in this thread, he'll be contradicting the claim that he made at the start of this thread.

 

That being a Christian is simply about believing in Jesus.

 

Once he types out that three-letter word, he opens this thread up to questions about how belief in it is inseparable from belief in Jesus.

 

And once he does that, everyone reading this thread will see that being a Christian is not just about simply believing in Jesus.

 

That to be a Christian you also have to believe in the reality of this three-letter word.

 

Simple enough, eh?

[LogicalFallacy]

Right, that's a slightly different direction from me, or perhaps more to the point. I was going to head back to the root of three letter word and its causes (Which I guess is part of the "reality" of the word) After all if you believe in the reason for Jesus saving us from perishing, then you presumably believing in the originality of that word. Again showing that it's not simply believing in Jesus.

Ironhorse can you spell the flaming word for us so I don't inadvertently do it for you.

[Thumbelina]

When I read 1 Corinthians 15:22 which says:
"For in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."
It shows that as head of the race Adam passed on death to his posterity but not sin & Christ passed life to His spiritual posterity. Humans sin by choice and all sinned (save one) & will sin. All people miss the mark, we don't live up to God's ideal. Christ did & He made the provision for everyone to live eternally if they choose.
The first death most humans experienced or will experience because we're living on a cursed planet but the second death (Revelation 2:11) will be experienced by those who had an understanding of right & wrong & chose the wrong-- & this does not include babies (Acts 17:30)! Sinners will pay the wages for their known & willful sins. The amount of work they do will determine the amount of wages they get. No sinner is immortal, that means their work was/is & will not be everlasting, therefore their wage will not be everlasting either. They will cease to exist eventually.

[sdelsolray]

The actual empirical evidence demonstrates that all carbon based lifeforms on Earth, including homo sapiens, eventually die, perish, cease to function, or whatever you want to call it.

 

Wishful thinking otherwise does not change this reality.

[Thumbelina]

The actual empirical evidence demonstrates that all carbon based lifeforms on Earth, including homo sapiens, eventually die, perish, cease to function, or whatever you want to call it.

 

Wishful thinking otherwise does not change this reality.

So you're agreeing with the bible which says this planet is cursed & entropy & death occurs?

What hope does atheism offer anyone?

[LogicalFallacy]

So you're agreeing with the bible which says this planet is cursed & entropy & death occurs?

What hope does atheism offer anyone?

Hope and purpose are misconceptions in the manner in which you wish to use them. Hope does not make a thing or belief true.

 

Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable - Carl Sagan.

 

Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in any deity. That's it. It's not a worldview, it offers nothing and asks nothing in return.

 

However people who are atheists (i.e. lack belief in any god) do have great hopes, they do have purposes. But they ground these hopes and purpose in reality, though sometimes mixes it with dreams. I hope that mankind can make it to the stars, but its more of a dream at this stage.

 

I have at the same time, both great hope than mankind will sort out their issues, and a fear that we will destroy ourselves. These are both based in reality.

 

What the Christian offers is that I was born a sinner, and must choose a very particular correct path to be saved. Nay, I am predestined to choose one way or the other. I cannot choose, God has forseen and predestined us. I'm not sure... it's not so simple

[bornagainathiest]

 

"... when you say perish, do you mean bodily perish or spiritually perish?

Perish is what happens IF a person does not repent and be saved from [insert three letter word]."

 

^

Most (believer or not) did & will bodily perish but believers will not be destroyed bodily & spiritually (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 10:28).

The human race is on probation. As soon as we're born we're terminal; we are mortal, we die. Only God can rescue the perishing.

Hi Thumbelina

 

Thanks for answering on behalf of IH.

 

Please answer BAA's question above then we can continue the conversation - the answer you will give BAA will of course tie nicely into this post, from which either BAA or myself can continue the line of questioning (Assuming I know where BAA is going with this, as assuming its in the direction I'd intend to head.)

 

 

You'll notice that Thumbelina did not answer my question, LF.

 

Why don't you ask her again and see if she'll answer me?

[bornagainathiest]

When I read 1 Corinthians 15:22 which says:

"For in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

It shows that as head of the race Adam passed on death to his posterity but not sin & Christ passed life to His spiritual posterity. Humans sin by choice and all sinned (save one) & will sin. All people miss the mark, we don't live up to God's ideal. Christ did & He made the provision for everyone to live eternally if they choose.

The first death most humans experienced or will experience because we're living on a cursed planet but the second death (Revelation 2:11) will be experienced by those who had an understanding of right & wrong & chose the wrong-- & this does not include babies (Acts 17:30)! Sinners will pay the wages for their known & willful sins. The amount of work they do will determine the amount of wages they get. No sinner is immortal, that means their work was/is & will not be everlasting, therefore their wage will not be everlasting either. They will cease to exist eventually.

 

Where and when did this curse originate, Thumbelina?

[bornagainathiest]

 

The actual empirical evidence demonstrates that all carbon based lifeforms on Earth, including homo sapiens, eventually die, perish, cease to function, or whatever you want to call it.

 

Wishful thinking otherwise does not change this reality.

So you're agreeing with the bible which says this planet is cursed & entropy & death occurs?

What hope does atheism offer anyone?

 

 

Where and when did this curse originate, Thumbelina?

[bornagainathiest]

LogicalFallacy,

 

While you're at it, please ask Thumbelina if she's a Seventh Day Adventist.

 

Her response (or absence of one) should prove... interesting.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Thumperina,

 

If god had not betrayed Adam and Eve in the garden, by placing a test before them, which he intentionally made impossible for them to pass, then perishing, death, entropy--call it whatever you want--would not be something god would need to "save" us from.  god is a joke; and a bad one at that.  He's the clumsy fool who sets up a series of tragedies in an effort to impress the fair maiden by swooping in to save her at the last minute.  What must we be "saved" from?  god's regret for making us as he did, "tempting" us as he did, intentionally setting us up to fail, as he did in the garden.  

 

Were god not such an incompetent ass, we'd have no need for "salvation".  In truth, if god were even the slightest bit intelligent, we'd have no need for him at all; because his "plan" would have been circumspect, forward-thinking, and rational (like the plans humans make).  Instead, your god purposefully sold us into sin so that he could buy us all back as slaves.  He genuinely expects us to be grateful for his betrayal.  What hubris!  To think that we, mere mortals, would not be able to see through his designs to create evil and unleash it upon the earth using Adam and Eve as his scapegoat.

 

god hates himself most of all.  

 

No sentient being could be so full of false-pride, arrogance, simultaneous lust for blood and praise without a deep-seeded hatred for himself.  Why would he be so hell-bent on hell, unless he knows deep down inside, that he deserves it most of all?  Why would he demand, with such vigor, the destruction of his creation, if he didn't see in it the very nature he hates within himself?  Your god is a hideous distortion of all that is good, noble, and beautiful in the world and in humanity.  A tyrant, a despotic idiot with the mentality of a 12-year-old and a codependency to match.  WE don't need to be saved by him; HE needs to be saved from himself.

 

And in saving himself; maybe there's a chance the rest of us could be saved from him.

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

[LogicalFallacy]

No no no, TRP you jumped to where I was going. Noooooooooooo!

Ah well, that was the quick way to get there - right where I was heading.

Thumbelina, I have some questions, both on behalf of BAA, and myself.

1) You have actually used this word without directly answering BAA. This applies to IH as well.

"What is the three letter word that causes us to perish?

I'll provide you with three spaces into which you can insert the answer.

Thumbelina, please type your one-word, three-letter answer here... _ _ _"

2) Considering the answer to #1 above, which any person here actually knows, "Where and when did this curse originate, Thumbelina?" (And the reason for it?)

3) Thumbelina are you a Seventh Day Adventist? If not, what is your particular flavour of Christianity?
 

Thanks

LF

[sdelsolray]

 

The actual empirical evidence demonstrates that all carbon based lifeforms on Earth, including homo sapiens, eventually die, perish, cease to function, or whatever you want to call it.

 

Wishful thinking otherwise does not change this reality.

So you're agreeing with the bible which says this planet is cursed & entropy & death occurs?

What hope does atheism offer anyone?

 

 

As an initial point, I note the wishful thinking in your first question.  

 

I do not believe the planet Earth is "cursed" for several reasons.  First, cursing requires a curser.  I am not aware of any entity, existing in reality, who has the power to curse the entire Earth.  You, on the other hand, are an indoctrinated theist and believe in imaginary sky fairies with such power.  I really don't care what the Bible says, or how you interpret the Bible, or what you believe about the Earth being cursed.  It's just standard religious dogma of your particular religion, best described as a apocalyptic death and blood cult.

 

As to entropy, that is not contained in the Bible, at least not in the way we currently understand and use the Second Law of Thermodynamics (2ndLT).  Humans did not discover and meaningfully describe the 2nd LT until about 175 years ago, long after the books in the Bible were composed.  So, it is not surprising that the Bible does not deal with entropy.

 

In any event, entropy is not a cause of death of carbon based lifeforms on this planet.  Both increasing and decreasing entropy continue on their merry quite predictable path regardless of carbon based life on Earth.  I'll leave it to you to research the topic to find out why that is correct.

 

As to death, yes the Bible mentions death frequently, as is expected with the Abrahamic religions.  So what?

 

So to summarize my answer to your first question, the Earth is not cursed, entropy does not cause death on Earth and yes, the Bible is full of death and destruction.  Many works of fiction are.

 

As to your second question, I find living on Earth to be quite satisfactory.  There's art, literature, music, literature, theatre, film noir movies, history, science, mathematics, sex, friendships, dreams, gardening, oceans, lakes, mountains, cooking, children, camping, love and many other things.

 

You may want to try to fit a few of these in your life instead of being OCD about death and pretending you're special.  Life is passing you by.

[LogicalFallacy]

As to death, yes the Bible mentions death frequently, as would be expected with the Abrahamic religions.  So what?

May I jump in at this point an mention that just about ANY religion has death as a focal point? Why? Because death is part of life!

 

Man created specific god's of death and the underworld. Satan is symbolic of falling, evil, death and suffering. It is not at all surprising that we should see death mentioned in the first chapters of an ancient holy book. Mankind is fascinated with the concept, and terrified of it.

 

Thumbelina you are attempting to match a fact (death occurs) with a writing (bible) and say therefore the bible must be true. If that's the case then any number of holy books and even fictional books must be true.

[sdelsolray]

 

As to death, yes the Bible mentions death frequently, as would be expected with the Abrahamic religions.  So what?

May I jump in at this point an mention that just about ANY religion has death as a focal point? Why? Because death is part of life!

 

Man created specific god's of death and the underworld. Satan is symbolic of falling, evil, death and suffering. It is not at all surprising that we should see death mentioned in the first chapters of an ancient holy book. Mankind is fascinated with the concept, and terrified of it.

 

Thumbelina you are attempting to match a fact (death occurs) with a writing (bible) and say therefore the bible must be true. If that's the case then any number of holy books and even fictional books must be true.

 

 

Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter books deal with death.  Therefore, they must be true.  That should get some prize for being the most infantile argument on the internet in the past week or something.

 

To be fair, I don't think Thumby is making that argument.  She doesn't know how to make sound and valid arguments at all and her repertoire of fallacious arguments is quite limited, usually limited to mere assertions with side salads of attempting to control the conversation with disingenuous questions.  Typically, she just recites Scripture, pretending its truth, stops after a while and runs after for months at a time.  Yeah, that's about it.

[LogicalFallacy]

I agree, Thumbelina is not making the LoTR argument, but seems to make the argument that because it's written in the Bible its true. My point was, if that's your logic then Harry Potter is true. (Which we know its not.)

 

Hmm minor observation here: in re-reading her question it seems loaded in a way that atheists often get accused of loading questions. Is that what you are referring to as "disingenuous questions" sdelsolray?

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

So you're agreeing with the bible which says this planet is cursed & entropy & death occurs?

What hope does atheism offer anyone?

 

Hi Thumbelina, welcome back. I think that by now, you know that people don't just decide to make an act of faith in atheism. Rather, they discover, often after much travail, that Christianity's unique claims have no foundation. Life and everything in it starts to make sense as it never did before.

 

So what is the hope of a person who has come to realize that there is no God?

 

The hope of everything good that we experience, create, and share. It's not hard.

 

It's better to live in reality without a pie in the sky fantasy than to live the disordered life that the fantasy, and the leaders who profit from it, demand.